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China

Ziggurat said:
Wake up. China isn’t going to reduce its global impact. They have no interest in doing so. And we cannot get it to either.
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Why do Republicans always think that the rest of the world would act like Republicans if only they got the chance?
 
dann said:
Why do Republicans always think that the rest of the world would act like Republicans if only they got the chance?
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Tu quoques won't work, nor can they hide your failure to address the substance of the issue. Why would you think China is going to behave fundamentally differently than they have always behaved? That's just delusional.
 
theprestige said:
Not today you can't, because nobody is offering competitive alternatives. Nothing's stopping Australia from becoming such an alternative.
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Wrong and ignorant in two consecutive sentences, congrats.

1 Name a product you can't buy without Chinese parts. (Competitive is a goalpost shift)

2 Look up "economies of scale".

Funny that you keep going on about Australia, because being somewhat on the racist side, there are several companies there making good money right now out of proudly advertising they have no Chinese products or parts in their products/services.
 
Ziggurat said:
Tu quoques won't work, nor can they hide your failure to address the substance of the issue. Why would you think China is going to behave fundamentally differently than they have always behaved? That's just delusional.
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China are not about to lose face and not get to carbon net zero by 2060 like they have announced.
 
The Atheist said:
That's a point I like to press a lot.

All of these anti-China people who see China as an enemy buy goods made, or partly made, in China.

If they put their money where their mouths are and stopped supporting China financially I'd have some respect for their position.
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I wouldn't.

Products are made by people, not countries. Refusing to buy Chinese made products for any reason other than value for money is bigotry. You don't want the money to go to 'those' people, because?

My father hated the Japanese, for obvious reasons. But he bought Japanese cars because they were better than the junk made in this country. Despite his bias he appreciated the effort those people made to produce a superior product. That's a position I have respect for.

If you want China to mend their ways, recognize their contribution to your welfare by trading with them. For decades we have exploited cheap Chinese labor while decrying everything they do that doesn't align with our moral standards. That's not a position to respect, especially when we think nothing of flouting them ourselves.

Like it or not, China is set to eclipse the US as the World's next 'super power'. We have two choices - shared prosperity through working together financially and socially, or war. The MIC wants you to choose the latter, even though it will be bad for everyone.
 
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Roger Ramjets said:
Like it or not, China is set to eclipse the US as the World's next 'super power'. We have two choices - shared prosperity through working together financially and socially, or war. The MIC wants you to choose the latter, even though it will be bad for everyone.
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Eclipse us? No, not really. They cannot continue their past rate of growth, too much of the low hanging fruit has already been picked. And they face massive internal problems as well which will also dampen their future prospects, including bad debt (the Evergrande thing was only the tip of the iceberg) and demographic contraction.

China will be a global power and a serious rival, no doubt about it. But they won’t eclipse us.
 
Orphia Nay said:
China are not about to lose face and not get to carbon net zero by 2060 like they have announced.
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Bwahahahaha!

No. Xi Jinping is 68 years old. He won’t be alive in 2060. Whatever he promised to do by then, he doesn’t have to actually do it. And whoever comes after him can blame him for not making that target. The only way they might is to use some bull **** accounting tricks about what counts as a carbon offset, so that numbers on a spreadsheet come out to zero even though emissions continue.

China will still be emitting CO2, and lots of it, in 2060. If you think otherwise, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
 
Ziggurat said:
Bwahahahaha!

No. Xi Jinping is 68 years old. He won’t be alive in 2060. Whatever he promised to do by then, he doesn’t have to actually do it. And whoever comes after him can blame him for not making that target. The only way they might is to use some bull **** accounting tricks about what counts as a carbon offset, so that numbers on a spreadsheet come out to zero even though emissions continue.

China will still be emitting CO2, and lots of it, in 2060. If you think otherwise, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
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Well, considering you knew nothing about China's green plans I will take your opinion with a large pinch of salt.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
For decades we have exploited cheap Chinese labor while decrying everything they do that doesn't align with our moral standards.
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Just so you know, I don't rate American moral standards higher than Chinese, and in a lot of cases, I rate them much lower.

Despite Ziggurat's strange beliefs, China hasn't attacked a load of countries in the past few decades, and what meddling they do in the Pacific pales into insignificance against the despicable and generation screwing America gifted Central America and the Middle East.

Internally, America is somewhat better - even the Jim Crow laws didn't cause torture of hundreds of thousands of people over an ideology, unlike the Falun Gong and Uighurs. Externally, there's no doubt America is by far the worse of the two.

I try to make sure neither country benefits from my wallet.
 
I had a geopolitical"come to God" moment when I looked at a Cold War map from the perspective of the USSR: a total encirclement by the US and its allies.
The current world looks very much the same from the POV of China.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Nice of you to believe a strawman.

Look into China's green policies and practices.
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China isn't cutting their emissions. That's their actual practice. What they say is pretty much beside the point.

Hell, even if they're honest about what their goals are (I won't take that bet), chances are they will fail. Communists are always coming up with plans, be they 3-year plans or 5-year plans or whatever. And they always fall short of the goal, and they just move on to the next plan which will also fail. The world never works out the way central planners want it to.
 
Ziggurat said:
China isn't cutting their emissions. That's their actual practice. What they say is pretty much beside the point.

Hell, even if they're honest about what their goals are (I won't take that bet), chances are they will fail. Communists are always coming up with plans, be they 3-year plans or 5-year plans or whatever. And they always fall short of the goal, and they just move on to the next plan which will also fail. The world never works out the way central planners want it to.
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Plenty of us have been providing sources showing that China IS cutting their emissions, and at a faster rate than we are. All you have is baseless speculation and paranoia that whatever China says is a lie, without providing any proof that this is the case.

Yes, their plans never work out. That's why they became a superpower ready to eclipse us after only two decades. Sure, everything Xi does is a failure... :rolleyes:
 
Ziggurat said:
China isn't cutting their emissions. That's their actual practice. What they say is pretty much beside the point.

Hell, even if they're honest about what their goals are (I won't take that bet), chances are they will fail. Communists are always coming up with plans, be they 3-year plans or 5-year plans or whatever. And they always fall short of the goal, and they just move on to the next plan which will also fail. The world never works out the way central planners want it to.
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Oh please, China moved away from Communism a long time ago. The name might still be there, but for all intents and purposes they moved back to imperial bureaucracy without a formal emperor.
As for their long term plans failing, they seem to be doing reasonably well, but perhaps the glorious border wall around the US, payed for by Mexico, is blocking vision? Or the large amounts of money trough trickle down economics?
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
Oh please, China moved away from Communism a long time ago. The name might still be there, but for all intents and purposes they moved back to imperial bureaucracy without a formal emperor.
As for their long term plans failing, they seem to be doing reasonably well, but perhaps the glorious border wall around the US, payed for by Mexico, is blocking vision? Or the large amounts of money trough trickle down economics?
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Wrong, they are definitely leaning right back into communism and a new cultural revolution. I live in Hong Kong, and see the news from over the border on a daily basis.

For decades they have indeed been completely capitalist, embraced western culture and capitalism, and raised millions out of poverty, creating a huge affluent middle class and a small number of oligarchs and extremely rich. When I arrived in HK in 2007 it was definitely communism in name only, and in practice, was completely capitalist.

Under Xi, this has changed, and is now changing faster than you think. They are cracking down on billionaires, big tech, education, you name it. By cracking down I mean arrests, government investigations, corruption allegations, and seizures.

They are openly threatening war against Taiwan in an unprecedented fashion. State newspapers (the only kind allowed) are pushing for military reunification, and railing against western culture, even popular Korean boy bands as "sissy boys", holding up "manly" Chinese soldiers as the ideal. They are accusing the US of biological warfare (yes, really, blaming the US for Covid as a deliberate attack).

They are now discussing common prosperity, universal basic wage, and other forms of wealth equalisation. Yes, this involves taking from the rich.

On the plus side, the move towards zero carbon is actually real. Its about the only good thing going on at the moment. As we speak, they have rolling electricity blackouts throughout China, because of high coal prices but also because of Beijing's directives to produce less and cut emissions.

Today's China is not the China of 10 or even 5 years ago. It has completely changed, and mostly for the worse.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
Oh please, China moved away from Communism a long time ago.
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And now they're moving back. Xi has a strong Maoist streak.

As for their long term plans failing, they seem to be doing reasonably well
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They mostly do well despite their central planning, not because of it.

Take, for example, their recent widespread power outages. Why are they having so much problems? One major factor is that they tried to boycott Australian coal, and it backfired on them. And now they have to buy Australian coal anyways. Central planning at its finest.
 
GraculusTheGreenBird said:
Wrong, they are definitely leaning right back into communism and a new cultural revolution. I live in Hong Kong, and see the news from over the border on a daily basis.

For decades they have indeed been completely capitalist, embraced western culture and capitalism, and raised millions out of poverty, creating a huge affluent middle class and a small number of oligarchs and extremely rich. When I arrived in HK in 2007 it was definitely communism in name only, and in practice, was completely capitalist.

Under Xi, this has changed, and is now changing faster than you think. They are cracking down on billionaires, big tech, education, you name it. By cracking down I mean arrests, government investigations, corruption allegations, and seizures.

They are openly threatening war against Taiwan in an unprecedented fashion. State newspapers (the only kind allowed) are pushing for military reunification, and railing against western culture, even popular Korean boy bands as "sissy boys", holding up "manly" Chinese soldiers as the ideal. They are accusing the US of biological warfare (yes, really, blaming the US for Covid as a deliberate attack).

They are now discussing common prosperity, universal basic wage, and other forms of wealth equalisation. Yes, this involves taking from the rich.

On the plus side, the move towards zero carbon is actually real. Its about the only good thing going on at the moment. As we speak, they have rolling electricity blackouts throughout China, because of high coal prices but also because of Beijing's directives to produce less and cut emissions.

Today's China is not the China of 10 or even 5 years ago. It has completely changed, and mostly for the worse.
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You are right that China moved away from socialism and communism instead allowing capitalism to run relatively free quite a while ago. It's something I criticize other Marxists on when they try to claim China is communist when they have been capitalist since Deng's rule.

But now they are cracking down, and that's a good thing. And while I don't support their more social and cultural changes, I do welcome this.

Despite my criticism of Xi in the past, and Marxist-Leninism in general, he has beaten the West at our own game. :thumbsup:
 
Boudicca90 said:
You are right that China moved away from socialism and communism instead allowing capitalism to run relatively free quite a while ago. It's something I criticize other Marxists on when they try to claim China is communist when they have been capitalist since Deng's rule.

But now they are cracking down, and that's a good thing. And while I don't support their more social and cultural changes, I do welcome this.

Despite my criticism of Xi in the past, and Marxist-Leninism in general, he has beaten the West at our own game. :thumbsup:
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The cultural changes are inseparable from the "crackdown" on capitalists. This is what communists do. Strict economic controls always go hand in hand with a loss of personal freedom and authoritarianism. They are a package deal, and it's stupid to think you're ever going to get your ideal Marxist leader who's OK with personal freedom but maximally progressive on economic matters.

You would not fare well living in China. It's amazing your willful blindness to that fact.
 
Ziggurat said:
Eclipse us? No, not really. They cannot continue their past rate of growth, too much of the low hanging fruit has already been picked.
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Looks like someone found some fruit higher up the tree.

China’s test of a hypersonic missile in space is a “game-changer” that should fundamentally alter the US’ calculations about Beijing’s military leverage, experts have warned.
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/...unch-shows-china-streaking-ahead-in-arms-race
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I had a geopolitical"come to God" moment when I looked at a Cold War map from the perspective of the USSR: a total encirclement by the US and its allies.
The current world looks very much the same from the POV of China.
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This is what I've been saying all along. Geographically, Russia has to be the enemy of the world. China likewise. Co-opting China into the system of the world has only given China levers for extortion.

China could have become a second Europe. Instead it is what it is. Put aside your Anti-americanism, and deal with the world as it stands today.
 
theprestige said:
Face is only a valuable currency for those economies that trade in face.
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This is true. And China is currently one of those nations.

They need to show the world that their way is the best; they have the best economy, the best society, the best response to covid, the best response to climate change.

That need is fundamental to modern China under Xi.

Edited to add: Face is precisely why they will pull out all the stops to meet their carbon goals, and will likely do so.
 
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Yeah, hypersonic missiles are not a game-changer.
A MIRV ICBM is going just as fast and can use decoys for evasion.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I had a geopolitical"come to God" moment when I looked at a Cold War map from the perspective of the USSR: a total encirclement by the US and its allies.
The current world looks very much the same from the POV of China.
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Why, though? Why does China find itself surrounded by enemies?

Because it has made enemies on all sides. It can't help but do so. That isn't our fault, that is theirs.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why, though? Why does China find itself surrounded by enemies?

Because it has made enemies on all sides. It can't help but do so. That isn't our fault, that is theirs.
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Disagree.
It's a geographic property, nothing to do with politics per se.
Just like every European country was surrounded by enemies for most of history, China is surrounded by enemies because of its borders.
The US situation is an absolute abnormality in world history, not the norm. Stop using the outlier as the standard to measure by.
 
There is also an historical factor.

In the past 200 odd years, China has been repeatedly invaded and humiliated. The Opium wars, the unequal treaties, WW2 to name three. So not only does China imagine itself surrounded by enemies, it knows it is and if it shows weakness it will be attacked again.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Disagree.
It's a geographic property, nothing to do with politics per se.
Just like every European country was surrounded by enemies for most of history, China is surrounded by enemies because of its borders.
The US situation is an absolute abnormality in world history, not the norm. Stop using the outlier as the standard to measure by.
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Your own examples disprove you. Yes, the USA is unusual. But European countries have figured out how to not be enemies with all their neighbors despite their history. China's history is an excuse, not the reason.
 
Ziggurat said:
Your own examples disprove you. Yes, the USA is unusual. But European countries have figured out how to not be enemies with all their neighbors despite their history. China's history is an excuse, not the reason.
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We sort of figured that out after two consecutive wars that killed off millions and under the threat of neighboring countries that could annihilate all life in Europe within minutes of starting a war.
And now that that threat is (sort of) gone there is a significant rise in parties that would like to go back to the 'neighbors are enemies' situation.
See Brexit, Poland, Hungary and all the populist parties.
 
Ziggurat said:
Your own examples disprove you. Yes, the USA is unusual. But European countries have figured out how to not be enemies with all their neighbors despite their history. China's history is an excuse, not the reason.
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having Russia and North Korea at your border is not a good reason to be a bit defensive?
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
We sort of figured that out after two consecutive wars that killed off millions and under the threat of neighboring countries that could annihilate all life in Europe within minutes of starting a war.
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China suffered even more deaths than Europe. So why didn't they learn?

Is it that they did it to themselves?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
having Russia and North Korea at your border is not a good reason to be a bit defensive?
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North Korea is a client state. And Russia is an ally. So no, that's really not an explanation. Their border problems are with other countries, like India. And previously with Tibet.
 
Ziggurat said:
China suffered even more deaths than Europe. So why didn't they learn?

Is it that they did it to themselves?
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They did learn. Hence it's all of China against their neighbours, rather than the warlords era. Come what may.

But you are not really interested in looking at how massive cultural, historical and geographic differences shape countries and their foreign policies.
You are only interested in claiming anything and anyone not towing the US line is evil and wrong.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
They did learn. Hence it's all of China against their neighbours, rather than the warlords era. Come what may.

But you are not really interested in looking at how massive cultural, historical and geographic differences shape countries and their foreign policies.
You are only interested in claiming anything and anyone not towing the US line is evil and wrong.
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Yeah, no. That isn't the issue. Rather, I am unwilling to excuse bad behavior on the part of the CCP which has placed them in a position where most of their neighbors hate them.
 
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