Facts and fictions in Buddhism

yrreg

Master Poster
Y
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
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Before anything else, I am here just to share my observations on Buddhism on the basis of skeptical criticism. No, I am not any member of any group out to oppose Buddhism.

Certainly what I share of my observations are not conducive to the reinforcement of people convinced of the merits of Buddhism -- if I may flatter myself; however that is the nature of religious conviction essentially, unlike knowledge of the laws of nature, for example, gravity, namely that our intelligence and logic can point out the errors inherent in a religious conviction.

But why Buddhism, why not Scientology, why not Islam, why not Christianity, or why not some dense philosophical system?

Because on my part it is within my skeptical resources of information and my thinking faculty to do so, and on the part of Buddhism it is very accessible and most exhaustively presented and explained in the web.

But the real reason or motivation is because it is an absorbing activity that one can do without having to travel abroad or inspect haunted homes; it can be indulged in, the activity that is, with very little time and labor and financial cost.

What are the tools and materials of this activity or I might call it a hobby? From my own moral resources, knowledge and critical thinking; from the side of the subject of study, innumerable materials, what I might call Buddhistica, most freely available in the web.

But more personally, why again Buddhism and not some other subjects? Because it is one religion that is in great conspicuous patronage by many so-called modern intellectuals of the West.

I have this attitude that when so many people go for something then that is the thing that excites me to find out what is so hot or so cool about that something, specially among so-called intellectuals.

I think it is like when I was much younger I always dismantled any toy given to me to find out how it works. Now, the way I see it, Buddhism is some kind of a religious toy to a visible number of Western socalled intellectuals. No, it’s not my toy, but this is one toy for not owning it myself I can dismantle it in others who do own it as a most attached possession.

And take it away from them? no, I will not flatter myself; because true convinced believers will never give up their religious toy; well, rarely they do give it up for another. But most exceptionally do they give up altogether any religious toys and just live a life without religion as religion is exemplified in cults, sects, denominations, churches, and world faiths.

But not religion as I might want religion to be for myself.


Please proceed to next post.


Yrreg
 
Some preliminary remarks

I have been told time and again that Buddhism is not a system which one has to believe in on the authority of a fellow human, but its merits are evident to anyone with a heart to learn and a mind to understand.

I have even come across in effect testimonials that Buddhism is a scientific religion, understanding scientific as in computer engineering is scientific.

By the way, if you say that you have read in the web that Buddhism is a scientific religion, some Buddhists will come forward and vehemently argue with you that it is not so, on two scores: first, no real Buddhists maintain such a position; and second, Buddhism is not scientific though no less possessed of certainty greater that scientific certitude.

But if you say that Buddhism is not scientific, there will be Buddhists who will argue with you endlessly that Buddhism is as scientific as anaesthesia, or at any rate, modern psychology and even quantum mechanics.

As regards sources of Buddhist beliefs and observances, there will be Buddhists who insist that you don't get the genuine teachings of Buddha unless and until you read and ponder on the earliest ever recorded texts reporting on the doctrines and practices purportedly propagated by Buddha himself.

And you know what? the Buddha never put down anything in writing, not to the knowledge of any Buddhist however deep and broad he has gone into Buddhist Nirvana and Buddhist rebirths.

Look up the web with Google and find out about the earliest written records of Buddhism.

For our purpose here I am of the position that to know a religion as it is at present, we have to approach the adherents of that religion, and outsiders who do study that religion to give it a balanced academical account -- unless you want to do archeology of a sort on that religion.

Please proceed to next post.


Yrreg
 
Conviction on the authority of Buddha

I will come now to the ultimate ground why Buddhists believe in Buddhistic teachings and usages, the authority of Buddha himself.

Forgive me for getting excited about the topic here; so for the sake of equanimity, I will recite this mantra: Om mani padme hum, which will procure calmness to my psyche.

I found a list of questions and answers in this very comprehensive site on Buddhism and most informative, almost what we might call authoritative.

It is easy to read and makes a lot of sense; but I keep looking for something that might be what I think to be evidence and logic for the certainty of the author in accepting Buddhism and propounding it to the whole world.

And here it is, the ultimate ground for belief in Buddhism, the presumptively authority of the Buddha himself:


...the Buddha... tells us that our needs can be fulfilled but that our wants are endless - a bottomless pit. There are needs that are essential, fundamental and that can be obtained and this we should work towards. Desires beyond this should be gradually lessened. After all, what is the purpose of life? To get or to be content and happy.

snip snip snip

The Third Noble Truth is that suffering can be overcome and happiness attained. This is perhaps the most important of the Four Noble Truths because in it the Buddha reassures us that true happiness and contentment are possible.

snip snip snip

The Buddha also assures us that Nirvana is an experience of profound happiness. He says: "Nirvana is the highest happiness." Dp 204
​

And here below I have uploaded the part that is most telling in establishing how for Buddhists the ground for belief is the authority of Buddha himself.

bsesso7dh.gif

So, there, the authority of Buddha himself, that is the whole and quintessential ground of conviction for Buddhists:

Again, even though we cannot prove Nirvana exists, we have the Buddha's word that it does exist. He tells us...
​

What then is the fundamental fact of Buddhism? The fact that it is built on the authority of the founder, he said so. And isn't that what all religions are founded on, the authority of someone who says so, and which his followers by some mechanism of human psychology choose to take him seriously, as though he knows something for certain, which others from the dawn of human intelligence to the present cannot know or has not known to be also certain.


But as my favorite skeptic, Res Oir Amsus, tells us, "there be so many authorities, and so many and contradictory even certainties, from the so many authorities."


Yrreg
 
What do you think the Buddhist phrase "Be a lamp unto yourselves" might mean?
 
yrreg said:
But why Buddhism, why not Scientology, why not Islam, why not Christianity, or why not some dense philosophical system?
Click to expand...

A Buddhist bit you when you were a child and you have been emotionally scarred ever since.
 
Buddhism not factually focused on the suffering millions

For a religion that is founded on the realization of suffering in mankind and the determination to rid mankind of suffering, Buddhism that is, I have always wondered whether Buddhists are doing more than meditating on their own suffering, in particular those Buddhist teachers from the Far East preaching to affluent folks in the West, who are certainly not suffering compared to the poor peoples of dark Africa and backward Southeast Asia.

The poorest peoples, the most miserable ones, on earth are located in Africa and in Southeast Asia.

These are human beings no different in their humanity from the Western intellectuals, who spend hours everyday ruminating in their minds, within the security and peace and quiet of their walls, thinking about how life is suffering, or as someone keeps insisting: not life is suffering but suffering exists -- as though that qualification should be a salve to his conscience, when he realizes the enormity and abysmal depths of sufferings among the destitute and desperate peoples in Africa and in Southeast Asia, starving to death, dying like flies from diseases, homeless from political upheavals, and sunk in filth, dirt, and pollution.

What then is the fact here? about Buddhism as practiced by Buddhist masters from the Far East and their obsequious disciples in the West, socalled intellectuals who might really be more surfeited with life than pained by suffering?

The fact is this: the Buddhist masters from the Far East are not after teaching the suffering millions in Africa and in Asia how to deal with suffering, as they should be if they were true to their religion of Buddhism; but they are more into hobnobbing with the affluent gentries of wealthy nations in the West.

And their disciples for all their reflecting on suffering have ne'er a care to proceed to dark Africa and backward Southeast Asia, to enlighten the teeming dismal millions drowned in their chronic sufferings of all kinds, body, heart, and spirit, to bring them enlightenment on how to deal with suffering.

And what is the fiction? That Buddhist masters and their disciples of the West know what is suffering: they don't.


So, what else is new? Like masters like disciples.

And that is why I consider Buddhism for the intellectual Westerners a religious toy, brought to them by masters from the Far East, or they brought it themselves home on their visit there. It is a toy, indeed; for a toy is something that keeps people amused without seeing the real world for what it is, and what they should genuinely be doing to change it for the better, for their disenfranchised neighbors.


Please proceed to next post.


Yrreg
 
Where are the Buddhist centers away from the Far East?

You don't believe that the poorest and the most miserably destitute peoples are in dark Africa and in backward Southeast Asia? Here, look up with Google this phrase, poorest peoples on earth.

Now, would you be at least curious if not interested, to know where are the centers of Buddhism outside the traditional lands of its indenture?

http://www.dharmanet.org/infoweb.html

General Directories:

Buddhist Associations, Monasteries and Practice Centers
These listings are of general directories or Buddhist organizations that are inclusive of many Buddhist traditions. Organizations specific to a given tradition are listed on the InfoWeb page specific to that tradition.

DharmaNet Directories:

 DharmaNet's World Guide to Dharma Centers.
 DharmaNet's World Guide to Theravadin Dhamma Centers [formerly: ATI: Worldwide Dhamma centers].
 DharmaNet's USA Guide to Dharma Centers.
 DharmaNet's USA Guide to Theravadin Dhamma Centers & Meditation Practice Groups [formerly: ATI: Meditation in the USA].
 DharmaNet's USA Guide to Meditation Practice Groups.
 DharmaNet's Guide to Dharma Teachers: An Online Who's Who.
 Thai Temples in North America.
Links to other resources:
 Americas Buddhist Directory [BuddhaNet, U.Western Sydney, Australia] - Buddhist Organisations in: North America (USA, Canada, Mexico), South America and Central America.
 Asian Buddhist Centers Directory [BuddhaNet, U.Western Sydney, Australia] - Buddhist meditation and study centres around Asia (Burma, Cambodia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Nepal, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam). Compiled by Ven. Pannyavaro.
 BoeddhaNed - Buddhism in the Netherlands.
 Buddhism in Canada - over 250 Buddhist centers throughout Canada. Compiled by George Klima.
 Buddhism in Houston.
 Buddhism in Malaysia.
 Buddhism in Spain.
 Buddhism in the Midwest.
 Buddhism in the National Capital of Canada [Ottawa ONT Canada] - General Information, Local and Regional Information, Sites on Buddhism Around the World, Other sites of interest. Compiled by Andre Vellino.
 Buddhist Australia Directory [BuddhaNet, U.Western Sydney, Australia] - organizations, websites, meditation groups. Compiled by Ven. Pannyavaro.
 Buddhist Centers in Singapore.
 Buddhist Churches of Hawai'i.
 Buddhist Council of New South Wales [AU].
 Buddhist Information Service of New York.
 Buddhist New Zealand Directory [BuddhaNet, U.Western Sydney, Australia].
 The Buddhist Society [London, UK].
 Buddhist Society of Pittsburgh [Pittsburgh PA].
 Buddhist Youth Association - [Hong Kong].
 Buddyzm [Poland].
 Cambodian Buddhist Telecommunications.
 DharmaNet Korea. An independent network, not affiliated with DharmaNet International.
 DharmaNet Singapore - An independent network, not affiliated with DharmaNet International.
 European Buddhist Union.
 Forest Sangha [UK].
 Gay Buddhist Fellowship.
 A Guide to Buddhist Monasteries & Meditation Centres in Thailand.
 Indonesian Buddhist Club - A Buddhist Web from Indonesia. Contains: Tiratana (The Three Gems: Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha), PESAN WAISAK 2541/1997 (Letter from SANGHA THERAVADA INDONESIA), Lembaran VIJJA KUMARA (Texts, Photos, Links, etc), Vihara di Indonesia (List of All Viharas in Indonesia), Berita Buddhist (Buddhist News) (In Indonesian language only).
 Karma Kagyu Lineage Centers.
 Malaysian Buddhist Directory Online - Buddhist centres, organisations, viharas,
temples in Malaysia..
 Northwest Dharma Association [Seattle WA].
 Order of Interbeing Sanghas.
 Philadelphia Buddhist Association [Philadelphia PA].
 San Francisco Bay Area Directory of Buddhist Centers & Organizations [DharmaNet, Berkeley CA].
 Santa Barbara Sangha [Santa Barbara CA].
 Shambhala Centers Worldwide.
 Sri Lankan Buddhist Temples in Australia.
 Tibetan Buddhist Centers in Italy.
 Vietnamese Buddhist Temples: Chua Vietnam.
 Zen Centers of the World.
​

Now, look up this phrase with Google, Buddhism +Africa, and you will notice that there is only one mention of Buddhism in Africa, and that is South Africa.

So, why are the Buddhist masters from the Far East concentrating their religous zeal in the West? but to rub shoulders with the opulent folks of the wealthy nations there?

And why are the Buddhist enthusiasts of the West not reaching out to dark Africa and dismal Southeast Asia, where the poorest and most hopeless of suffering mankind are to be encountered everywhere, in order to bring to them the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, so as to enlighten them to banish suffering completely?

Because they prefer to commune among themselves on their enlightened knowledge about suffering coming from desire, or craving and attachment, and encourage one another on working to overcome their boredom with life, in quest of Nirvana by which they will arrive at the non-self or experience the non-self.

I am waiting to hear about Buddhist masters from the Far East and their Western disciples with intellelctual pretenses, from North America, Australia, and Europe, ardent with the compassion of the Buddha, proceed to dark Africa and forlorn Southeast Asia, to instruct the benighted and impoverised and starving and shelterless fellow human specimens, on overcoming suffering and attaining Nirvana whereby they will be freed of all sorrows.


Yrreg
 
The word combination 'skeptic + africa' only yields 374,000 hits.
 
Scarce Buddhist offices in Africa outside South Africa

Thanks, Kopji, for that reference. I looked it up and as you can see reproduced below there are practically nothing but token website addresses for Buddhism in Africa outside South Africa; and I suspect these token websites are for the purpose of producing photo options in view of raising financial support, purportedly for mission work in Africa.

See next post, please.

Yrreg

Annex
​

» South Africa » Burkina Faso » Cameroun » Ivory Coast » Kenya » Ghana » Mali » Tanzania » Zimbabwe » Zaire

Send your information

International dialing prefix for South Africa +27


» South Africa
African Buddhist Seminary
1 Wen Shu Crecent, Bronkhorstspriut
Gauteng 1020 South Africa
Tel: 13-931-0185, Fax: 13-931-0181
Email: hussein@nanhua.co.za
Web site: www.nanhua.co.za/fgsabs
Tradition: Mahayana, Humanistic Buddhism
Affiliation: Fo Guan Shan (Taiwan)
Spiritual Director: Ven. Master Hsing Yun
Teachers: Ven. Huei Shiang, Ven. Huei Shang,
Ven. Ben Yong, Ven. Man Ya, Pro. J Kruger

Benoni Cultural Centre
134 Busschau Rd., Vlei Rd.
Benoni, J.H.B. 5003 R.S.A.
P.O. Box 7132 PETIT 1512 R.S.A.
Tel: 27(11) 969-4438, Fax: 27(11) 969-3136
Emails: fgsafsa67@fgs.org.tw,
yunt@telkomsa.net, yung_chia_shih@hotmail.com
Tradition: Mahayana, Humanistic Buddhism
Affiliation: Fo Guang Shan
Spiritual Director: Ven. Master Hsing Yun

Bloemfontein Meditation Centre
P.O. Box 13085 Noordstad
Bloemfontein 9305, R.S.A.
Tel: 27 (51) 433-3452, Fax: 27(51) 433-3787
Email: fgsafsa69@fgs.org.tw
Tradition: Mahayana, Pureland, using Zen meditation
Affiliation: Fo Guang Shan (Taiwan)
Spiritual Director: Ven. Master Hsing Yun

Buddhist Retreat Centre
P.O. Box 131 Ixopo, KwaZulu Natal 3276
Tel: (039) 834 1863, Fax: (039) 834 1882
Email: brcixopo@sos.co.za
Web site: www.brcixopo.co.za
Tradition: Theravada / Non-sectarian
Teachers: Ven. Thanissara and Ven. Kittisaro

Buddhist Theravada Centre
Bishopsford Road, Hout Bay, Cape Town 7806
Contact: Lionel Theron or Siggy Franz
Tel: (021) 790 3478 or 797 8972
Email: bford@pixie.co.za
Tradition: Theravada
Affiliation: Sassanaraka, Malaysia & World Fellowship of Buddhist
Teachers: Several including visiting teachers

Buddhist Theravadan Group
(Godwin Samararatne Centre)
Victoria Road, Hout Bay, Cape Town
Tel: (021) 790 3478
Email: bford@pixie.co.za
Tradition: Theravada, Sri Lankan

Cape Town Cultural Centre
43 Sandpiper Crescent, Flamingo Vlei
Tableview, Cape Town 7441 R.S.A.
Tel: 27 (21)556-8478, Fax: 27(21) 557-4442
Email: fgsafsa6a@fgs.org.tw
Tradition: Mahayana, Humanistic Buddhism
Affiliation: Fo Guang Shan
Spiritual Director: Ven. Master Hsing Yun

Cape Town Samye Dzong
5 Auburn Road, Kenilworth, 7700
Tel/Fax: (27) 21 761 2978
Email: samye@mweb.co.za
Tradition: Tibetan

The Dharma Centre
(Head Temple, Africa)
Contact: Heila and Rodney Downey
P.O. Box 795 Robertson, Cape 6705 South Africa
Tel/Fax: (27) 23 626 3515
Email: DHARMKEN@worldonline.co.za
Web site: home.worldonline.co.za/~dharmken
Founding Teacher: Zen Master Seung Sahn
Tradition: Kwan Um School of Zen (Korean)
Teacher: Heila Downey, JDPSN

Durban Mahasiddha Kadampa Buddhist Centre
2 Hollings Road, Durban/ Malvern, KwaZulu-Natal 4093 South Africa
Contact: Robbie Mawson
Tel/Fax: (27) 31 4640984
Email: info@meditateindurban.org
Web site: www.meditateindurban.org
Tradition: Tibetan, New Kadampa
Affiliation: New Kadampa Tradition
Spiritual Director: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
Teacher: Gen Kelsang Sangdak

Durban Meditation Centre
91 Fairway Drive Durban North 4051 R.S.A.
Tel/Fax: (31) 563-3848
Email: fgsafsa6b@fgs.org.tw
Tradition: Mahayana, Humanistic Buddhism
Affiliation: Fo Guang Shan
Spiritual Director: Ven. Master Hsing Yun

Durban Zen Group
Durban, South Africa
Tel: (27) 31-261-318
Tradition: Korean Chogye Order
Lineage: Seung Sahn
Guiding Teacher: Heila Downey, JDPSN
Affiliation: Kwan Um School of Zen
Contact: Ani Wolmarans

Emoyeni Retreat Centre
P.O. Box 190, Mooinooi
Rustenburg/Brits
North West 0325 South Africa
Tel: (014) 574-3662
Email: emoyeni@xsinet.co.za
Web site: www.emoyeni-retreat.com
Tradition: Eclectic
Teacher: Mervyn Croft and affiliated teachers

Goenka Vipassana
Contact: James O'Donovan
NCWSTI UNIN; Private Bag X1106 Sovenga 0727, South Africa
Tel: (015) 268-3308, Fax: (015) 268-3263
Email: dhammaza@iii-world.com
For books and publications on Vipassana in South Africa
please contact: Girish Daya
PO Box 27566 Greenacres, Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape 6057
Tel/Fax: (041) 457-5101, Mobile:(082) 764-6000
Email: dhammaza@iii-world.com
Tradition: Vipassana meditation as taught by S.N.Goenka

Good Heart Dharma Group
Durban, South Africa
Contact: Elizabeth Gaywood
Tel: 031-7014307
Email: cormkt@mweb.co.za
Tradition: Tibetan, Gelugpa
Spiritual Director: Geshe Damch Yonten

Grahamstown Zen Group
Bamboo Grove Zen Centre
9 Mount Street, Grahamstown 6140 South Africa
Contact: Charlotte Jefferay
Tel: (27) 461-26163
Email: ascj@warthog.ru.ac.za
Tradition: Korean Chogye Order
Lineage: Seung Sahn
Teacher: Heila Downey, JDPSN
Affiliation: Kwan Um School of Zen

Johannesburg (FWBO)
P.O. Box 1440 Cresta, Johannesburg 2118
Tel: 27 11 792 8435
Web site: www.fwbo.org/contacts
Tradition: Friends of the Western Buddhist Order
Spritual Director: Lama Ole Nydahl

Johannesburg Zen Group
P.O. Box 1080, Bucchleuch
Johannesburg 2066 South Africa
Contact: Neil Muir and Fanus Olivier
Tel: (27) 11-807-6066, Fax: (27) 11-807-6081
Email: olivier@icon.co.za
Tradition: Korean Chogye Order
Lineage: Seung Sahn
Guiding Teacher: Heila Downey, JDPSN
Affiliation: Kwan Um School of Zen

Kagyu Samye Dzong - Capetown
5 Auburn Road, Kenilworth, Capetown 7700
Tel: (27) 21 761 3583
Email: Karmapa@Iafrica.com
International Web site: www.samyeling.org
Tradition: Tibetan, Karma Kagyu

Kagyu Samye Dzong - Johannesburg
43 Floss Street, off Roberts Avenue, Kensington 2094
Tel: (27) (0) 11 497 1870/1, Fax: (0) 11 497 1863
Email: dorje@gem.co.za
International Web site: www.samyeling.org
Tradition: Tibetan, Karma Kagyu

Kagyu Samye Dzong - Port Elizabeth
22 Bayly Street, Charlo 6070, Port Elizabeth
Tel: (27) (0) 27 41 321 915
International Web site: www.samyeling.org
Tradition: Tibetan, Karma Kagyu

Karma Thegsum Choling
P.O. Box 39712 Nairobi, Kenya
Tel: 254 2 440275, Fax: 254 2 441994
Email: halpengo@africaonline.co.ke
Tradtion: Tibetan, Karma Kagyu

The Lam Rim Buddhist Centre of South Africa
P.O. Box 1325 Roosevelt Park 2129
Cell Phone: 083 327 0273
Email: kailash@iafrica.com
Web site: www.geocities.com/lamrimsa

Mahasiddha Kadampa Buddhist Centre
2 Hollings Road, Malvern, Durban,
KwaZulu-Natal 4093 South Africa
Contact: Robbie Mawson
Tel: (0) 31 4640984, Fax: (0) 31 4640984
Email: info@meditateindurban.org
Web site: www.meditateindurban.org
Tradition: Tibetan, New Kadampa
Affiliation: New Kadampa Tradition
Spiritual Director: Geshe Kelsan Gyatso
Teacher: Gen Kelsang Sangdak

Myanmar Buddhist Association of South Africa
Dhammodaya Myanmar Vihara
Web site: users.iafrica.com/m/mb/mbasa
Email: mbasa@iafrica.com
Spiritual Director: Ven. Chanmyay Sayadaw
Tradition: Burmese, Theravada Vipassana

Nan Hua Temple (I.B.A.S.A.)
11 Fo Guang Road, Erasmus Ext.8 (Cultura Park)
Bronkhorstspruit, Gauteng 1020
Tel: (27 13) 931-0009, Fax: (27 13) 931-0013
Email: nanhua@nanhua.co.za
Web site: www.nanhua.co.za
Tradition: Mahayana, Pureland, using Zen meditation
Affiliation: Fo Guang Shan (Taiwan)
Spiritual Director: Grand Master Hsing Yun
Contact: Ven. Man-ya, Ven. Hui-fang, Peter G Just

Newcastle Meditation Centre
86 Victoria Road. P.O. Box 9427 Newcastle 2940 R.S.A.
Tel: 27 (3431) 50-630, Fax: 27 (3431) 50-631
Email: nmc_sa@pchome.com.tw, nmc_sa@pchome.com.tw
Tradition: Mahayana, Pureland, using Zen meditation
Affiliation: Fo Guang Shan (Taiwan)
Spiritual Director: Grand Master Hsing Yun

Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism -South Africa
Contact: Jonny Blundell
Email: jonnyblu@iafrica.com
Web site: www.sgi-sa.org.za
Tradition: Mahayana

Poplar Grove Zen Centre
Contact: Margie and Antony Osler
P.O. Box 232 Colesberg 5980 South Africa
Tel: (27) 51-753-1356
Founding Teacher: Zen Master Seung Sahn
Tradition: Kwan Um School of Zen (Korean)
Guiding Teacher: Heila Downey, JDPSN

ROKPA South Africa
Contact: Sean Vinsen
Johannesburg Samye Dzong
43 Floss Street, Kensington 2094
Tel/Fax: +27 11 614 19 48
Email: dorje@gem.co.za
International Web site: www.rokpa.org
Tradition: Charitable organisation/Tibetan,Kagyu
Founder: Dr. Akong Tulku Rinpoche

Rondebosch Dharma Centre
Contact: Marlize Meyer
6 Lulworth Mansions, Saint Andrews Road
Rondebosch, Cape Town 7700 South Africa
Tel: (27) 21-686-3698
Email: rons@iafrica.com
Web site: home.worldonline.co.za/~dharmken
Founding Teacher: Zen Master Seung Sahn
Tradition: Kwan Um School of Zen (Korean)
Guiding Teacher: Heila Downey, JDPSN

Sat Chit Anand - Plettenberg Bay
16 Great Basses Road, Plettenberg Bay 6600 South Africa
Contact: Leela
Tel: (044) 533-0453, Fax: (044) 533- 0454
Email: satchitanand@global.co.za
Web site: www.satchitanand.co.za
Tradition: Non-sectarian
Guiding Teacher: Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

The SGI-SA Cultural Centre
Fearnhead Park
Cnr. Wells Avenue and Blandford Road, Parkview, Johannesburg.
Tel: (011) 788 5228
Email: hallo@sgi-sa.org.za
Web site: www.sgi-sa.org.za
Tradition: Mahayana, Soka Gakkai

The Tibet Society of South Africa *
PO Box 2674, Pinetown, 3600, KZN
Tel: (031) 7014307, Fax: 702 4535
Tradition: Tibetan Culture & Assistance
Email: tidbnsa@iafrica.com
Web site: www.tibet.org.za

* Pietermarizburg Branch
Contact: Cathy Murray
Tel: (033) 260 5323 or 386 5704
Email: tssapmbbranch@hotmail.com

Vajrapani Buddhist Centre
97 Oxford Road, Kensington
Johannesburg 2094 South Africa
Contact: Gen Kelsang Legden
Tel/Fax: 27-11-615 1692
Email: info@meditation.org.za
Web site: www.meditation.org.za
Tradition: Tibetan, New Kadampa Tradition
Spiritual Director: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
Teacher: Gen Kelsang Legden

Vipassana Association of South Africa
Dhamma Pataka
10 Dawlish Court, Hall Road, Seapoint,
Cape Town 8005, Western Cape, South Africa
Tel: (021) 433 2273, Fax: 780 1081
Email: info@pataka.dhamma.org
Web site: www.pataka.dhamma.org
Tradition: Vipassana meditation as taught by S.N.Goenka

The Wisdom Centre
19 Bowden road, Observatory
Cape Town, Western Cape 7925 South Africa
Contact: Chad Barber
Tel: 082 4406653 or (021) 447 0159
Fax: (021) 447 1023
Email: info@wisdomcentre.org
Web site: www.wisdomcentre.org
Tradition: Non-sectarian Tibetan Buddhist resource centre
Founder: Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche
Affiliation: Nalandabodhi / Shambhala
Teacher: Jennifer Woodhull​


» Cameroun
International dialing prefix for Cameroon +237

Contact: Association Zen Internationale (ACI)
Tradition: Soto Zen (Deshimaru Correspondants)
Sombo,
A.M. Ngouem Ito. Bp 1. Sombo
Yaoundé, Bp 14022
Contacts:
Victor Fouletier
Tel: 237314125
Wawa Ngenge
Tel: 237221873

Sombo Zendo
BP 169 Eseka Village, Cameroun
Contact: Am Ngouemito
Tradition: Zen Buddhist​


» Botswana
Botswana Buddhist Association
P.O. Box 272
Gaborone North Plot 31330
Gaborone, Botswana
Contact: David Matthews (President)
Tel: 00267 395 3494
Fax: 00267 397 1294
Email: david.matthews@arup.com
Web site: www.BotswanaBA.org (under construction)
Tradition: Theravada but open to all Buddhists
Teachers: Visiting Buddhist Monks
Botswana has a small population. We are Buddhists from Sri Lanka, Burma, Britain, Japan, China, Nepal, America, Korea and South Africa. Predominantly Theravada but all welcome.​


» Burkina Faso (Formerly Upper Volta)
International dialing prefix for Burkina Faso +226

Contact: Association Zen Internationale (ACI)
Ouagadougou , 03
Konfa Kambou. D.C.C.T. - Bp 501
Web site: www.zen-azi.org
Tradition: Soto Zen (AZI)
Founder: Master Taisen Deshimaru​


» Ivory Coast
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Our regular meetings take place at the All Africa Conference
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Not really my approach

Kopji said:
Yrreg,
I got 4.1 million hits on the two words. Here is a directory of Buddhism in Africa:
http://www.buddhanet.net/africame/africadir.htm

If I may add a comment. Starting with the conclusion you want and then selecting only evidence that supports it is not a very skeptical attitude.
Click to expand...

What two words did you enter into Google to obtain 4.1 million hits. I entered "africa +buddhism" and "buddhism +africa," and obtained respectively 1.90 and and 1.93 million hits. See annex below.

Anyway the really relevant hits for our purpose are the first ones which contain the mention of South Africa, and they are not much either.


Starting with the conclusion you want and then selecting only evidence that supports it is not a very skeptical attitude.​
​
Actually that's not true. Do you not see the whole listing of worldwide Buddhist centers I reproduced in my post #8, from Dharmanet; yes, I missed that directorial listing from Buddhanet you consulted, not from malice but from haste. So, for the sake of readers desirous of seeing also this listing, they can look up it up here.


Starting with a conclusion..., not really true; what I do is have a question and look for answers and I present the answers as I find them -- which in fact I do.

No, I am not into the perversity of presenting answers in favor and suppressing answers to the contrary. On the other hand, I also depend on answers found by fellow posters here if they do look up answers to my question; logically I judge their answers to see whether they are relevant, valid, and supportive of the contrary position.

Buddhism has almost uncountable patrons in the web, and that is why I want to take up skeptical criticism of this worldview -- I want to do something different; otherwise I would appear to be also one among the myriads of frogs in a wet meadow on a raining night all croaking in unison. Look and listen, they will be silent, and then when one of them a leader starts croaking, all of them will follow in uniform cadence. (No offense intended, just rhetoric.)

Yrreg

Annex
 
No idea what you are seeking, but hopefully you find it soon. You seem to have an obsession with 'skepticising buddhism'. Given that buddhism has picked up 2500 years of relics, artifacts and superstitions it really isn't difficult to find material to critique.

Given all the apparent nonsense that can be attributed to buddhism I just don't understand why you insist on going after the silliest things.

You said buddhism rests upon the authority of buddha or something similar to that. Honestly that is one of the silliest things I have ever heard. While there may be persons in the world who view buddha as an authority on certain matters even an introductory text on buddhism would reveal the buddha to teach others to examine everything (his teachings and those of others) themselves. In other threads you have been shown the buddha's teachings on skepticism of all things, including his teachings.

I don't understand what is driving you, but I do not need to. I wish you well.
 
yrreg said:
For a religion that is founded on the realization of suffering in mankind and the determination to rid mankind of suffering, Buddhism that is, I have always wondered whether Buddhists are doing more than meditating on their own suffering, in particular those Buddhist teachers from the Far East preaching to affluent folks in the West, who are certainly not suffering compared to the poor peoples of dark Africa and backward Southeast Asia.
Click to expand...

So buddhism fails for you because it isn't evangelical enough? They aren't sending out missionaries to convert the heathens and this is what you are criticising?

The suffering buddhism speaks of is primarily existential angst and it affects everyone rich or poor without regard to where they live. Sure, situational suffering such as not having enough to eat also occur, in some parts of the world much more than others, but the suffering primarily dealt with in buddhism (at least as best as I understand it) is the suffering we create for ourselves due to our not seeing reality clearly, but instead viewing our predjudices, beliefs, conceptualizations of experiences as reality. Because we do not see correctly we suffer the ill effects.

One way of putting it metaphorically is we walk into a dark room and see something in the corner, dimly. We perceive it to be a poisonous snake so we experience fear. When our vision adjusts to the light levels we see that it is really a coiled garden hose and our fear goes away.

Had we seen clearly in the first place, we would have not experienced the suffering of fear.

Enlightenment|awakening|nirvana, whatever is 'seeing' reality as it is. As such I don't understand why you would think buddhism is more important for those starving, diseased or oppressed more or less than anyone else.

The poorest peoples, the most miserable ones, on earth are located in Africa and in Southeast Asia.
Click to expand...

I think they would benefit more from decent government than buddhism. With a decent government they might be able to develop an economy and greatly reduce the suffering that arises from desperate poverty and brutality and injustice. Maybe even get some medicine so they live healthy lives.

These are human beings no different in their humanity from the Western intellectuals, who spend hours everyday ruminating in their minds, within the security and peace and quiet of their walls, thinking about how life is suffering, or as someone keeps insisting: not life is suffering but suffering exists -- as though that qualification should be a salve to his conscience, when he realizes the enormity and abysmal depths of sufferings among the destitute and desperate peoples in Africa and in Southeast Asia, starving to death, dying like flies from diseases, homeless from political upheavals, and sunk in filth, dirt, and pollution.
Click to expand...

There is suffering in life, some of it is from external forces such as living under a hopelessly corrupt government and it's attendant ills. Most of the suffering we experience though is the result of how we perceive reality. We don't perceive it directly, we perceive it after our minds have labeled, conceptualized, categorized and associated everything we experience and then we view this packaged conceptualization as reality. We stare at a map and we think it is the terrain. This is what buddhism is dealing with. What you are dealing with is something best left to relief workers and political activists, not buddhism. It would be like saying the way to improve the lot of a dirt poor person in Africa is to teach them Christianity or Islam or Hinduism or maybe to send all of them a copy of some inspirational self help book.

What then is the fact here? about Buddhism as practiced by Buddhist masters from the Far East and their obsequious disciples in the West, socalled intellectuals who might really be more surfeited with life than pained by suffering?
Click to expand...

Read a book on buddhism. I have already recommended 2 in a previous thread. Why you won't take the time to read a book under 200 pages that costs less than $10 is beyond me given the amount of time you expend criticising something you simply don't understand.

The fact is this: the Buddhist masters from the Far East are not after teaching the suffering millions in Africa and in Asia how to deal with suffering, as they should be if they were true to their religion of Buddhism; but they are more into hobnobbing with the affluent gentries of wealthy nations in the West.
Click to expand...

Such as whom? All of the books I have read thus far are written by westerners who traveled to the east, spent a decade or two learning and then returned. I have no doubt there is someone peddling their version of buddhism to the rich and famous, but I don't see this occuring as a general trend, do you?

And what is the fiction? That Buddhist masters and their disciples of the West know what is suffering: they don't.
Click to expand...

You are making claims well beyond what you can actually know.

And that is why I consider Buddhism for the intellectual Westerners a religious toy, brought to them by masters from the Far East, or they brought it themselves home on their visit there. It is a toy, indeed; for a toy is something that keeps people amused without seeing the real world for what it is,
Click to expand...

That is so ironic as to be genuinely funny. Your claim is that buddhism keeps people from 'seeing the real world for what it is', but yet 'seeing the real world for what it is' is pretty much the definition of buddhism's end goal.
 
Kopji said:
What do you think the Buddhist phrase "Be a lamp unto yourselves" might mean?
Click to expand...


If I remember correctly, those were Buddha's last words. I read that recently, thought it was poignant, and thought that Buddha might have meant that he didn't want to be deified. He might have been able to see that people were beginning to follow his teachings, and he was aware of the difficulties that would entail. For example, the failure of language to perfectly express experience.
He might have also meant that he attained happiness in his own way, and it may not work for others. We must each of us as individuals decide what is true and what is not.

That's my skeptical, slightly buddhist interpretation, anyway.

I would like to see Vipassana meditation debunked. My sister has done a number of those retreats, and they don't seem to have done her any good.
 
Now, look up this phrase with Google, Buddhism +Africa, and you will notice that there is only one mention of Buddhism in Africa, and that is South Africa.

So, why are the Buddhist masters from the Far East concentrating their religious zeal in the West? but to rub shoulders with the opulent folks of the wealthy nations there?

And why are the Buddhist enthusiasts of the West not reaching out to dark Africa and dismal Southeast Asia, where the poorest and most hopeless of suffering mankind are to be encountered everywhere, in order to bring to them the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, so as to enlighten them to banish suffering completely? - yrreg
Click to expand...
yrreg
Rather than accept your word for it I did look it up and did not find "one" mention, but over a million. This is not a trivial mistake, but a glaring fact that undermined the entire conclusion you went on to make about Buddhists ignoring poor people in favor of the rich.

I think your problem is that by placing the "+" in your search you search for articles containing "Buddhism Africa" instead of Buddhism "AND" Africa.

I am not saying that Buddhists should exist without criticism.


  • The implication of believing we go through many lives vs only having one life to get it right is interesting.

    There is contention within the Buddhist sects that goes mostly unnoticed in the 'west'. I would describe this as the same kind of baggage that Christianity has and yet it goes largely ignored. Even in Basho's travels he encounters a temple that will not let him inside because they mistakenly think he is a monk from an unacceptable sect.

    There are plenty of charlatans in Buddhism, fake 'masters' who promise enlightenment in return for money.

    Monks accept donations to spin prayer wheels for people who don't have the time. They sell little mani wheels that are supposed to bring peace. That is a kind of 'priest-craft' that needs specific criticism.

    Meditation can sometimes be harmful and it is possible to fall into the same 'one size fits all' trap that many religions do.
A difference with Buddhists might be that they would agree that our understandings are flawed and always need reexamination.

There are members of all religions who also value skepticism and science, and are fellow travelers in searching for what is true and what is not.

orphia nay
Hi and welcome!
Yeah, I don't much of a case for authoritarianism within Buddhism, especially in the core writings.

On my way 'out of religion' I fell in with a group that promoted a prayer-like meditation at regular hours. I have never felt so close to going completely mad. It seems like it does a lot of good for some people though.

I need to get out or will get caught in the upgrade...

A good 'Buddhist book' is called the "Dhammapada" - (The sayings of the Buddha)
There are probably many translations but a 'pretty' one is a rendering by Thomas Byrom and published by Random House.
 
Last edited:
Beating a dying pseudo horse.

Before anything else, some comic relief, maybe?

Warning! Reading this thread can be detrimental to your equanimity.

Look, guys, I am just into this thing about Buddhism as I have said several times already -- and I do feel a certain qualm of conscience about it, as an intellectual pastime, for fun. And I am a bit disturbed because it might, the skeptical criticism that is, bring confusion to Buddhists who are otherwise safe, secure, satisfied, feeling at home, and emotively well adjusted with life and the cosmos, from Buddhism. But I flatter myself to much, such is human vanity even to a non-Buddhist.

However, I say to myself that doing skeptical criticism on Buddhism is in effect a service to Buddhists, because it will strengthen their faith. What is that old saw about what will not destroy you will toughen you?

-------------

Kopji said:
yrreg
Rather than accept your word for it I did look it up and did not find "one" mention, but over a million. This is not a trivial mistake, but a glaring fact that undermined the entire conclusion you went on to make about Buddhists ignoring poor people in favor of the rich.

I think your problem is that by placing the "+" in your search you search for articles containing "Buddhism Africa" instead of Buddhism "AND" Africa.
Click to expand...

Let us not beat a dead horse, there are very few Buddhist outposts in Africa outside of South Africa; whether the two words, Africa and Buddhism, searched on by Google will bring how many millions of hits and what is established with Google, that is very incidental. Let me try as you suggest search "Africa and Buddhism" and "Buddhism and Africa," and also just "Africa Buddhism," and report back here. Wait.

===================

Here are the reports of Google:

The "AND" operator is unnecessary -- we include all search terms by default. [details]

Web Results 1 - 100 of about 1,860,000 for Africa and Buddhism. (0.31 seconds)

Information about Buddhism and the Tibetan Kaguy lineage. Links to South African centers and a biography of Rob Narn, representative of the Kagyu lineage ...
www.buddhism.co.za/ - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

Buddhism South Africa

Snip snip snip

----------------

The "AND" operator is unnecessary -- we include all search terms by default. [details]

Web Results 1 - 100 of about 1,870,000 for Buddhism and Africa. (0.57 seconds)

Buddhism South Africa
List of South African Buddhist groups.
www.buddhism.co.za/sa_directory.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages

Buddhism in South Africa

Snip snip snip

------------------

Web results 1 - 100 of about 1,870,000 for Africa Buddhism. (0.36 seconds)

Buddhism in South Africa
Information about Buddhism and the Tibetan Kaguy lineage. Links to South African centers and a biography of Rob Narn, representative of the Kagyu lineage ...
www.buddhism.co.za/ - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

Buddhism South Africa
List of South African Buddhist groups.
www.buddhism.co.za/sa_directory.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.buddhism.co.za ]

snip snip snip​

=======================

Dear Kopji, let’s just see the big picture and make the short statement.

---------------

To the credit of Google personnel, theirs is a search machine tht is blind but the software authors try to make it as intelligent as they could, taking into account what is in the mind of searchers who are intelligent and not into just hitting any and every occurrence of words entered into the search box. You can that in the way Google orders its findings.


Yrreg
 
History of the term, "Buddhism"

Dear Username:

Thanks for your reactions. I am sure that readers of this thread will appreciate them, see their value and practical advantage in their life and philosophy and religion -- and skeptical criticism.

Please forgive me for not answering to every point you bring up. I am always after the big picture and I am addicted to the short statement. Anyway, readers here and fellow members of the skeptical community here I am certain take your reactions to my opinions attentively, and see their merits as against my less favorable comments and observations on Buddhism.

More and more I have realized that I will just be more focused in my answers to posters here, in concentrating on their objections against my honesty and my methods of criticism.

-----------------

username said:
You said buddhism rests upon the authority of buddha or something similar to that. Honestly that is one of the silliest things I have ever heard. While there may be persons in the world who view buddha as an authority on certain matters even an introductory text on buddhism would reveal the buddha to teach others to examine everything (his teachings and those of others) themselves. In other threads you have been shown the buddha's teachings on skepticism of all things, including his teachings.

I don't understand what is driving you, but I do not need to. I wish you well.
Click to expand...

Dear Username, I have been trying to find out when the term "Buddhism" appeared in the West; for and I might be mistaken the followers of Buddha did not call their religion or philosophy Buddhism and themselves Buddhists -- I might be wrong though.

Islam used to be called Mohammedanism, after its founder, Mohammed; I guess Muslims finally convinced the West that the proper name for their religion which they also use themselves is Islam.

I had a Japanese colleague who told me that the term Shintoism is wrong, because the "to" in Shintoism already stands for "sm", now I think the West has become accustomed to call Shintoism plainly and correctly I imagine, Shinto.

If you can tell me something about the use of the term Buddhism in the West, I would appreciate it very much; for I think original Buddhists, followers of Buddha, did not and very probably do not even now call themselves Buddhists. I could be very wrong though.

I just don't know where to start looking up the history of the use of the term Buddhism in the West.

Thanks.

Yrreg
 
I've told you this before, yrreg, but Buddhism is not named after the Buddha, but the experience that all Buddhists seeks, that of realizing their own buddhahood (enlightenment).

yrreg said:
I am always after the big picture and I am addicted to the short statement.
Click to expand...

Short statements, indeed.
 
Last edited:
Dear Kopji, let’s just see the big picture and make the short statement.

---------------

To the credit of Google personnel, theirs is a search machine tht is blind but the software authors try to make it as intelligent as they could, taking into account what is in the mind of searchers who are intelligent and not into just hitting any and every occurrence of words entered into the search box. You can that in the way Google orders its findings.
Click to expand...
yrreg
As a small technical point, Google built its fine reputation by employing human editors to help cull good hits from bad.

I am not the one who made this 'Argumentum by Google', you are. If the course of action seems rather foolish, well then we agree.

If you really want to become an official JREF Resident Buddhist Critic and have your embossed card and all, it might help to actually know something about Buddhism rather than just post random stuff and see if Buddhists come out of the woodwork.

The Dhammapada is a short book with pretty pictures and might be a nice place to start.
 
Buddhism without temples

About Ryokan traveling abroad and being refused entrance to a Buddhist temple for his belonging to a wrong sect, I think Ryokan has his work cut out for him.

He should advocate a Buddhism without temples, monuments, paintings, reliefs, and statuaries of all kinds in remembrance whatsoever and howsoever of Buddha the Gautama.

So, of the three jewels of Buddhism: Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, just retain Dharma, leaving out Buddha and Sangha; and in Dharma editing out all references explicit or implicit to Buddha.

Is that possible? Very possible; any good editor or writer can do it.

Will the Dharma stripped of Buddha and Sangha and all the remembrances in art and in architecture of Buddha the Gautama be successful, like as the Theory of Relativity and the Theory of Evolution would still be as convincing?

I invite Buddhists here to answer that question.


Yrreg
 
yrreg said:
About Ryokan traveling abroad and being refused entrance to a Buddhist temple for his belonging to a wrong sect, I think Ryokan has his work cut out for him.
Click to expand...

WTF? I've seen you pull some strange stuff out of your ass, but, seriously... WTF?!

First of, where did you get this from? Secondly, why are you making this personal?

yrreg said:
He should advocate a Buddhism without temples, monuments, paintings, reliefs, and statuaries of all kinds in remembrance whatsoever and howsoever of Buddha the Gautama.
Click to expand...

Why?

yrreg said:
So, of the three jewels of Buddhism: Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, just retain Dharma, leaving out Buddha and Sangha; and in Dharma editing out all references explicit or implicit to Buddha.

Is that possible? Very possible; any good editor or writer can do it.

Will the Dharma stripped of Buddha and Sangha and all the remembrances in art and in architecture of Buddha the Gautama be successful, like as the Theory of Relativity and the Theory of Evolution would still be as convincing?

I invite Buddhists here to answer that question.


Yrreg
Click to expand...

Has anyone even suggested this? All I said was that Buddhism is named after the experience of enlightenment, not Gautama Buddha, so I have no idea where all that came from.
 
yrreg said:
Dear Username:


Please forgive me for not answering to every point you bring up. I am always after the big picture and I am addicted to the short statement.

<snip>

If you can tell me something about the use of the term Buddhism in the West, I would appreciate it very much;
Click to expand...

So you do not respond to what I say, but want me to say more?
 
username said:
So you do not respond to what I say, but want me to say more?
Click to expand...

Hey, it's all about the big picture and the short statement, don't you know? It's all the rage these days, instead of an educated debate.
 
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At least it's a good thread title - Yrreg supplies the fiction (not to mention copious amounts of straw) and everyone else tries to supply some facts... :)

I'm quite sure that every one of the poor, suffering, starving millions in Africa, even though they have virtually no water, no food, little clothing etc., would automatically put their experiences as Buddhists on their web sites if they were really Buddhists, so the fact that we might not see their web sites must definitely be proof that there can't be any Buddhists in Africa... :rolleyes:

I'm now going to go meditate on a 5 letter word which begins with "M", ends in "n" and has an "r" in the middle - because it seems somehow strangely appropriate at this point. :D
 
orphia nay said:
I would like to see Vipassana meditation debunked. My sister has done a number of those retreats, and they don't seem to have done her any good.
Click to expand...

Would you be willing to go into greater detail on this? I think, perhaps, we might find something in what you relate that we can actually examine and genuine skeptical criticism of some element of buddhism can actually begin.

I am curious about how you would describe your sister before attending the retreat, what you understand her motivations in attending to have been and what you understand her experience there to have been and the result you observed in her.
 
yrreg said:
About Ryokan traveling abroad and being refused entrance to a Buddhist temple for his belonging to a wrong sect, I think Ryokan has his work cut out for him.
Click to expand...
As stated earlier this is a diverse set of practices, there are also schools that willing accept members of other schools. And that is the general practise.

There have been no wars fought in buddha's name, unlike the Christians, Islam and the Hindu's.
He should advocate a Buddhism without temples, monuments, paintings, reliefs, and statuaries of all kinds in remembrance whatsoever and howsoever of Buddha the Gautama.
Click to expand...
And why so?

Explain your self.
So, of the three jewels of Buddhism: Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, just retain Dharma, leaving out Buddha and Sangha; and in Dharma editing out all references explicit or implicit to Buddha.
Click to expand...
If the buddha is potentialy viewed as the parts of the human that are capable of removinf the factors that aggravate suffering there is no need.

The problem I see here is that you leave out every other form of 'religion.

There are more intellectual westerners who are christians than any other sect. Why are they immune to your scepticism?
Is that possible? Very possible; any good editor or writer can do it.

Will the Dharma stripped of Buddha and Sangha and all the remembrances in art and in architecture of Buddha the Gautama be successful, like as the Theory of Relativity and the Theory of Evolution would still be as convincing?
Click to expand...
Are you saying that Einstien was not villified for the theory of that Darwin is still not directly attacked.
Strange double standard.
I invite Buddhists here to answer that question.


Yrreg
Click to expand...

I invite you to answer questions as well.

We shall see, eh?
 
Pragmatist said:
At least it's a good thread title - Yrreg supplies the fiction (not to mention copious amounts of straw) and everyone else tries to supply some facts... :)

I'm quite sure that every one of the poor, suffering, starving millions in Africa, even though they have virtually no water, no food, little clothing etc., would automatically put their experiences as Buddhists on their web sites if they were really Buddhists, so the fact that we might not see their web sites must definitely be proof that there can't be any Buddhists in Africa... :rolleyes:

I'm now going to go meditate on a 5 letter word which begins with "M", ends in "n" and has an "r" in the middle - because it seems somehow strangely appropriate at this point. :D
Click to expand...


This is just the old Xian saw that Yrreg is using, and I am sure that he got it from somewhere else.

When Xianity is attacked for say the wealth in St. Peter's basillica then:
1. Missionaries are brought up as some sort of colonial positivism.
2. Where are the hopsitals, where are the orphanages? Is brought up.
3. The alleged enlightenment of Xianity and how it brought running water to some place is mentioned.

I am sure that the fact that buddhism doesn't generaly seek to convert is lost on Yrreg.
 
There is contention within the Buddhist sects that goes mostly unnoticed in the 'west'. I would describe this as the same kind of baggage that Christianity has and yet it goes largely ignored. Even in Basho's travels he encounters a temple that will not let him inside because they mistakenly think he is a monk from an unacceptable sect.
-kopji (earlier post)
Click to expand...
This may be what yrreg is confusing Roykan with. (I suppose there could be a lot worse things then being compared with a great poet.)

I apologize for a mistake in my post, and I need to correct it. I tend to think of Shinto as a Japanese form of Buddhism but Shintoism is not really a 'sect' of Buddhism, but considered a different religion even though it does not have any leader or formal texts.

Basho is what I would call a 'free spirit'. Wears a Shinto cap, holds Buddhist beads, and knows Taoist texts. If there were Christians or Jews around he'd probably be familiar with their writings and beliefs too. The event I referred to is related in one of Basho's short travelogues:
'Travelogue of Weather Beaten Bones'

..."I traveled on to visit an old friend in Ise and stayed about ten days. Early one evening I visited the Outer Shrine of the seat of Shinto religion...

I wear no sword at my belt. Rather, I carry a small bag at my shoulder and Buddhist prayer beads in my hands. I resemble a priest, but am a layman. Although I am a layman, my head is shaved. Although I am not a monk, one with a clean pate is always treated here as a devout Buddhist, and thus excluded from the inner shrine.

Narrow Road to the Interior and other writings
Matsuo Basho, Translated by Sam Hamill
Shambhala Classics
pg 41-42
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There is a short discussion of Shintoism here, and some links:
Shinto - http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm

There was a fairly recent article about some friction between Tibetan Buddhism and some other sects that would probably have made my point better. Which is - that sometimes people look to other religions thinking the grass is greener and it is usually not.

The Buddhism we typically encounter in the 'west' is less religious and of a 'simpler' kind than other places, tending to be un-supernatural and accepting of scientific thought and method. Buddhism travels this direction rather than toward superstition and the supernatural.
 
Yrreg's offer to cease and desist from criticism of Buddhism.

Seriously now, guys.

If Buddhists here are going to lose their equanimity owing to my posts here which I think I am doing in a perfectly civil manner -- I don't call anyone names, do I? so that I will not suffer this qualm of conscience that I am the cause of their delay to Nirvana...

Then just let fifty (50) self-acclaimed bona fide Buddhists who call themselves such, namely, Buddhist, tell me to stop doing this activity of skeptical criticism on Buddhism or what passes for skeptical criticism to him, me, myself. And I will stop, and even change my description to not spell out "Resident Buddhist Critic."

Better, ask the powers that be here in JREF forum to give me warnings to cease and desist; if I receive five (5) such warnings -- that is if my account has not been closed earlier, then I will also stop my skeptical criticism of Buddhism.

What an infantilistic ego tripper -- hahaha.

Shall we all have a good laugh?


Yrreg
 
yrreg is a troll - nothing more.

He's not interested in discussion that might lead to learning or the pursuit of truth.

I used to think that he had something against Buddhism and that attacking Buddhism was his goal. I've decided that I was wrong - attacking Buddhism is the means for yyreg; his end is stroking his ego.

Ignore the jerk. He is willfully ignorant.
 
Just for the good camaraderie... okay?

Kopji said:
If you really want to become an official JREF Resident Buddhist Critic and have your embossed card and all, it might help to actually know something about Buddhism rather than just post random stuff and see if Buddhists come out of the woodwork.
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Let's just have fun here, Kopji. Let's not take things so seriously as to lose the fun atmosphere in this forum. I am sure that the management of this forum also wishes us to have fun.

Who says that we can't have fun in everything we do even serious stuffs; he's wrong, very wrong. If we can have fun in everything we do or have to do or have to submit ourselves to, then that is Nirvana.

On the other hand, do you think that I might be irreverent to your religion or philosophy of life, for finding fun in it with my skeptical criticism? If you do think so, what does Buddha say about that?


About my description of "Resident Buddhist Critic," it's an experiment; I want to find out how people understand that descriptive title.

Tell me, do you really think that I am some kind of critic on Buddhism designated by the JREF management?

What about Ryokan who sports the description of "Resident Buddhist"?


Yrreg
 
yrreg is a troll - nothing more.
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At this point I think I am tending to agree. Won't consider what other's say, even admits not reading responses in many cases, insists on erecting strawman after strawman, etc.

My new year's resolution now is to not respond to yyreg any further.
 
yrreg said:
Let's just have fun here, Kopji. Let's not take things so seriously as to lose the fun atmosphere in this forum. I am sure that the management of this forum also wishes us to have fun.

Who says that we can't have fun in everything we do even serious stuffs; he's wrong, very wrong. If we can have fun in everything we do or have to do or have to submit ourselves to, then that is Nirvana.

On the other hand, do you think that I might be irreverent to your religion or philosophy of life, for finding fun in it with my skeptical criticism? If you do think so, what does Buddha say about that?


About my description of "Resident Buddhist Critic," it's an experiment; I want to find out how people understand that descriptive title.

Tell me, do you really think that I am some kind of critic on Buddhism designated by the JREF management?

What about Ryokan who sports the description of "Resident Buddhist"?


Yrreg
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Feel free to take anything I write with as little seriousness as you like. I persist a little more with you because I agree with the heart of what you seem to believe but not really the method. Is there something about taking the simple path of 'unreligion' that eventually turns one into a troll? :D Now that's a scary question.

Seems that we travel along in life together or we don't. Life seems short enough without spending the journey pounding on fellow travelers.

Time is better spend trying to get snoozers to wake up... or shed light on traps or dangerous paths... or to have people realize we should think more like trailblazers than trail followers.
 
I find it hard to respond to this thread since I can't pinpoint a specific question or allegation.

Re: why people go for buddhism - I think there are many reasons why people believe in buddhism or at least practice it or are drawn to it. As with all religions, "life-systems" and indeed self-help books, it offers to solve the innate problems with being human. And like all of them I would imagine it ultimately fails whilst providing some help to some problems. For many people it's the religion of their nation and so they don't get much of a choice.

Do you have a specific problem with the idea that to live is to suffer? It seems pretty obviously true to me.

Do you have a problem with the idea that suffering comes from desires? Again, that seems to have merit. What makes us unhappy, other than physical pain? - the things I would list are are desires. I surely then have the choice to get what I desire or try to lose the desire, or live with the longing. Buddhism asks it's followers to lose the desire. Western societies tend to stress getting what we desire. I don't see that making everyone any happier.

Anyway....what are your points/claims so people can respond specifically?
 
Dancing David said:
As stated earlier this is a diverse set of practices, there are also schools that willing accept members of other schools. And that is the general practise.

There have been no wars fought in buddha's name, unlike the Christians, Islam and the Hindu's.

And why so?

Explain your self.

If the buddha is potentialy viewed as the parts of the human that are capable of removinf the factors that aggravate suffering there is no need.

The problem I see here is that you leave out every other form of 'religion.

There are more intellectual westerners who are christians than any other sect. Why are they immune to your scepticism?

Are you saying that Einstien was not villified for the theory of that Darwin is still not directly attacked.
Strange double standard.


I invite you to answer questions as well.

We shall see, eh?
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HMMMMMMMM.
 
David... Are you, at this point, expecting yrreg to answer questions?
 
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