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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 9th January 2022, 01:58 PM   #3521
theprestige
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Trans-activism is inherently misogynistic. It didn't have to be this way, but here we are.
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Old 9th January 2022, 02:33 PM   #3522
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But I'm dominating the dojo!
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Old 9th January 2022, 02:47 PM   #3523
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Not much of a competition. More like a fun swim. Do they all get a participation award and a chance at winning some fun prizes?


Yeah, I just meant that it was logical, in the sense of coherent, and not self contradictory. In terms of what I think the policy ought to be does not mean I don't think the fact that Lia Thomas sometimes loses does not in any way affect the fact that she shouldn't be racing in the women's division.
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Old 9th January 2022, 02:49 PM   #3524
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Well my last post had some interesting grammar, but you can probably figure out what I meant anyway. Don't try to actually parse it completely though. Your head might explode.
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Old 9th January 2022, 04:54 PM   #3525
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I just meant that it was logical, in the sense of coherent, and not self contradictory.
I disagree. If transgender swimmers ought to compete as the sex they want to be (as Lia Thomas does) then Iszac Henig ought to be competing against male swimmers.
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:10 PM   #3526
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
If the definition of “woman” were just “a female human”, is that particularly useful? How female does a human need to be in order to be a woman?
All the way female. It's an on-off switch. Any given human is either male or female. No human is both, and no human is neither.

There is no "how female" to be asked. It's like asking how negative a charge an electron needs to have in order to be considered an electron. It's an ignorant question.

Try this on for size: Who is *more female*, Buck Angel or Laverne Cox? There is exactly one right answer to this question... but it is completely different from asking which of those two people is *more feminine*.
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:15 PM   #3527
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
But the whole point is that animals aren’t always biologically one thing or the other. You were one of those that told me this was well covered material. Was that not true?
All mammals are exclusively one or the other, never both, and never neither. This is also true for the overwhelming majority of vertebrates; a small number of vertebrates have the ability to change their reproductive anatomy under certain conditions, so there may be a small amount of time during which they are "both" sexes, although they are infertile during that transitionary period. None of those that can change sex, however, are mammals. And none of those vertebrates include more than two sexes.

You have to go all the way to invertebrates before you start seeing species that have more than two sexes.

So when we're talking about animals on the planet earth that are relevant to a discussion of biological sex in humans... There are two, and only two sexes. There is no third sex, there is no in between sex.

We have eggs, we have sperm, we do not have spergs.
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:20 PM   #3528
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
But that’s not always true, though, is it?
Yes, it is true. If a fetus develops ova, it is unquestionably female, even it it has a disorder of sexual development and develops ambiguous appearing genitalia. The presence of ova is a sufficient criteria for the class of female. No males have ova.

It is not necessarily a necessary criteria. A fetus may develop without ova but still be considered female if their reproductive anatomy is organized around the production of ova.

Similarly, the presence of sperm is a sufficient criteria for the class of male, although it is not a necessary criteria thereof.

If a human produces, previously produced, or in the future is expected to produce, or has the anatomy evolved to produce ova, then it is female... even if no ova are actually ever produced. If a human produces, previously produced, or in the future is expected to produce, or has the anatomy evolved to produce sperm, then it is male... even if no sperm are ever actually produced.
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:21 PM   #3529
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
With very rare exceptions, completely outside the scope of the trans-inclusion debate, humans are indeed biologically one thing or the other. This thread would be very different, and a lot shorter, if we were actually discussing intersex rights and inclusion. But we're not.
Even with the consideration of disorders of sexual development, which are completely irrelevant to this discussion, humans are only one or the other. DSDs are sex-specific disorders.
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:22 PM   #3530
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Words. Definitions.

Being born with ova makes you.....born with ova. Using historically used definitions of words, it also makes you female, and yes that is always true in humans.

But we could redefine the word "female" to mean something else, but now we need a new word to describe people born with ova, and people who have neither ova nor sperm, but have substantial physiological similarity to the typical form of someone with ova.

We used to call those people "women", and then we started with "female", and biologists probably have some longer word, and it goes on an on.
And of course people who lack that for what ever reason are not women or female. Of course then you are tying competing in sports to fertility, and coming back to things like as a Eunuch should Lance Armstrong have competed as if he was still a man?
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Old 10th January 2022, 02:40 PM   #3531
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
That doesn't follow, c.f. spotted hyena.
Red herring. Humans are not spotted hyenas.
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Old 10th January 2022, 04:52 PM   #3532
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
If a trans-woman ever closes in on the men's mile record, I will be in the crowd cheering them on. If they ever compete for Canada in their own category, I will cheer them on. But I am not interested in watching them beat a record that was set by a man 100 years ago. I am interested in watching a woman do it.
Sure, let's make this all about you.
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Old 10th January 2022, 05:06 PM   #3533
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure, let's make this all about you. : p
Anything to make it not about women, right? There's that misogynistic trans-activism again.
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Old 10th January 2022, 06:29 PM   #3534
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Okay, I accept that you care about women's sports, and what's more, I have said that I think transgender women competing in women's sports are unfair for women especially in strength sports (in some sports there may not be a meaningful difference).

Again, the problem is how the sports are governed and it doesn't excuse transphobic insults or bullying.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anything to make it not about women, right? There's that misogynistic trans-activism again.
Call me a misogynist if you like, IDGAF if you do. I have already stated what I think about trans-women competing in sports. I generally think it is unfair, although it may come down to the specific sports and how they are governed.

Of course, while you are condemning misogyny, which I applaud, do I get to call you transphobic? I think you would disagree with me calling you that, but if so maybe try not to reflexively grab for labels like “misogynist”.
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Old 11th January 2022, 07:24 AM   #3535
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure, let's make this all about you.
The universe has to revolve around someone, it might as well be me! 😜
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Old 11th January 2022, 12:49 PM   #3536
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Call me a misogynist if you like, IDGAF if you do. I have already stated what I think about trans-women competing in sports. I generally think it is unfair, although it may come down to the specific sports and how they are governed.

Of course, while you are condemning misogyny, which I applaud, do I get to call you transphobic? I think you would disagree with me calling you that, but if so maybe try not to reflexively grab for labels like “misogynist”.
I apply the label of misogyny thoughtfully and intentionally. I do not say you are misogynist. Rather, I say that the general thrust of trans-activism today is objectively misogynist in application and in effect. If you are concerned about being associated with misogynistic policies and practices, then you should think twice about being associated with trans-activism in its current form.
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Old 11th January 2022, 02:49 PM   #3537
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Just cuz a dog feels like a pig, acts like a pig, eats like a pig, doesn't make him a pig.

he is still a dog
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Old 11th January 2022, 02:51 PM   #3538
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Just cuz a dog feels like a pig, acts like a pig, eats like a pig, doesn't make him a pig.

he is still a dog
Profound. I guess we can finally stitch up this long running thread, it's been resolved.
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Old 11th January 2022, 02:52 PM   #3539
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Profound. I guess we can finally stitch up this long running thread, it's been resolved.
I know its crazy, but human gender is not a mere social construct.
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Old 11th January 2022, 02:53 PM   #3540
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I know its crazy, but human gender is not a mere social construct.
shhhh, don't ruin it, it was already perfect.
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Old 12th January 2022, 03:58 AM   #3541
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you are concerned...
I'm not.
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Old 12th January 2022, 05:46 AM   #3542
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I know its crazy, but human gender is not a mere social construct.
When I say genderWP, I usually mean a set of characteristics socially associated with femininity or masculinity, e.g. girls wear dresses to the prom, boys wear tuxes. These social norms are constructed and deconstructed and reconstructed by social forces over time, and only occasionally influenced by biology (e.g. fly openings in y-fronts).

When you say gender is more than this, I'm interested in unpacking that further.
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Old 12th January 2022, 09:02 AM   #3543
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I'm not.
In that case my reach for the misogyny label is hardly reflexive. You can't associate with an objectively misogynistic movement, express unconcern at the association, and then complain about being tarred with that brush.

(I mean you can, but trans-activism beclowns itself overmuch already. Why pile on?)
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Old 12th January 2022, 09:25 AM   #3544
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I know its crazy, but human gender is not a mere social construct.
What you are saying is common sense, or perhaps I should say, "common sense". i.e. it's how normal people talk and what normal people think.

However, the regulars in this thread have moved way beyond that, into kind of a meta-discussion about the meanings of words.

My recent take on things is basically I am fine with saying that there is something called "gender" that is, in fact, a social construct, and that it is ok to use the word "woman" or "man" to refer to people who have some sort of this "gender" thing. Moreover, there is evidence that some people are biologically inclined to participate as one gender or the other, even if they don't have the reproductive biology normally associated with that gender. However, regardless of how you define and/or use words that have traditionally meant one thing, there are unchanging realities that don't change when you change a name. I have also said that, having redefined those words we traditionally used, we really ought to have new words about those things that do not change.

As an example, if someone wants to say that men can have babies, I'm willing to consider a change in language that would make the statement true. However, there is a class of people who used to be known as "men", and that class of people cannot and will never have babies, so I keep trying to find a word to use for that class of people.

Sometimes I say something like, "people who don't have a uterus", which occasionally prompts someone to say something stupid about hysterectomies. That's kind of the level of the discussion these days. Some people point out obvious truths. Some people try to dodge them. Once in a while, there's actually some intelligent give and take, but that's pretty rare.
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Old 12th January 2022, 10:47 PM   #3545
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In that case my reach for the misogyny label is hardly reflexive. You can't associate with an objectively misogynistic movement, express unconcern at the association, and then complain about being tarred with that brush.
I'm not complaining.

For one thing, I don't "associate with an objectively misogynistic movement." I have said what I have said already about trans athletes competing in sports - I think it is likely unfair and therefore I don't support it.

That said, I do NOT support bullying or attacking transpeople either. How you have discerned that I am a "trans activist" I have no idea.

As for being "tarred with that brush" I have no concerns. If it is merely you telling me that I am a misogynist, I really don't care. The charge is palpably absurd on its face and you haven't even tried to support the claim because you know full well you cannot make it stick.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:40 AM   #3546
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I'm not sure it's strictly relevant, but I couldn't figure out another thread to post this, and I believe this is where it was mostly discussed. The cross-dressing teenage boy who sexually assaulted two girls at two separate schools in Loudoun County has been sentenced to a residential treatment facility and will be on the sex offenders registry for life, after the judge said she looked at his psychosexual evaluations and "Yours scares me. What I read scares me for yourself, your family and society in general."

https://wtop.com/loudoun-county/2022...-sex-assaults/
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:47 AM   #3547
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I'm not sure it's strictly relevant, but I couldn't figure out another thread to post this, and I believe this is where it was mostly discussed. The cross-dressing teenage boy who sexually assaulted two girls at two separate schools in Loudoun County has been sentenced to a residential treatment facility and will be on the sex offenders registry for life, after the judge said she looked at his psychosexual evaluations and "Yours scares me. What I read scares me for yourself, your family and society in general."

https://wtop.com/loudoun-county/2022...-sex-assaults/
Probably not really relevant, as it seems this supposed trans boogieman turned out not to be trans.

I hope the victims got some sense of closure or justice from this, lord knows this frothy mouthed witch hunt didn't do them any favors.
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Old 13th January 2022, 08:58 AM   #3548
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Probably not really relevant, as it seems this supposed trans boogieman turned out not to be trans.
Which actually makes it far, far, more relevant than if he were trans.


But that's a message several of us have stated over and over and over in lots of different ways, and you are still oblivious to the message.
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Old 13th January 2022, 09:00 AM   #3549
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(Oh, what the heck. I can't resist the challenge.)

SuburbanTurkey,

Will you acknowledge that this is a case where a person who was not trans was pretending to be trans?
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Old 13th January 2022, 09:02 AM   #3550
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(Oh, what the heck. I can't resist the challenge.)

SuburbanTurkey,

Will you acknowledge that this is a case where a person who was not trans was pretending to be trans?
Is there evidence for this?

All indications was that the boy liked to dress androgynously and met up his girlfriend for secret liaisons in the toilets.

Is there any evidence he was actually presenting himself as a girl or openly using the women's room?

I've yet to see anything to suggest there was ever permission for him to be there rather than just sneaking in, which is something any unambiguously masculine boy hoping to get laid might do.
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Old 13th January 2022, 09:09 AM   #3551
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Will you acknowledge that this is a case where a person who was not trans was pretending to be trans?
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there evidence for this?

That's what I thought.


For those who didn't follow this, the school administration was surprised to discover that the boy identified as male. Also, despite what you have read in many media sources, the school policy was to allow trans kids to use the bathroom of their gender identity since at least 2019.

Is there evidence of (fill in the blank)?

There has been very little posted anywhere about anything that has not been directly relevant to the court cases. I would love to hear some commentary on this situation from students from the school, but there's nothing.
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Old 13th January 2022, 09:10 AM   #3552
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's what I thought.


For those who didn't follow this, the school administration was surprised to discover that the boy identified as male. Also, despite what you have read in many media sources, the school policy was to allow trans kids to use the bathroom of their gender identity since at least 2019.

Is there evidence of (fill in the blank)?

There has been very little posted anywhere about anything that has not been directly relevant to the court cases. I would love to hear some commentary on this situation from students from the school, but there's nothing.
Yes, the "Trans boogieman" of the gaps argument once again.

Sounds to me like the admin didn't really know the facts of the incident very well. This doesn't reflect well on their concern for a sex crime happening under their supervision, but I'm not sure what other facts I'm supposed to glean from this.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:25 PM   #3553
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Which actually makes it far, far, more relevant than if he were trans.


But that's a message several of us have stated over and over and over in lots of different ways, and you are still oblivious to the message.

Yeah, you're totally correct. And the fact that one of the female victims had previously had sex with the boy and invited him into the girls' toilets to have sex again (but he turned it into a sexual assault)...meaning this was in no way a "Reefer Madness"-style instance of a boy pretending to be transgender in order to enter the girls' bathroom to carry out perverted offences....

...has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.




(You're being blinded by your not-very-well-disguised attitude towards transgender identity, and you've apparently totally lost the ability to see when a crime such as this one has absolutely nothing to do with your warped anti-fantasy about malevolent & mendacious cisboys masquerading as transgirls then going into the girls' bathroom with the prior intent of offending against cisgirls in the bathroom. No surprise for me there, though...)
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:31 PM   #3554
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there evidence for this?

All indications was that the boy liked to dress androgynously and met up his girlfriend for secret liaisons in the toilets.

Is there any evidence he was actually presenting himself as a girl or openly using the women's room?

I've yet to see anything to suggest there was ever permission for him to be there rather than just sneaking in, which is something any unambiguously masculine boy hoping to get laid might do.

Exactly. This boy was (very clearly) not using transgender identity as some sort of "cloak" to enter the girls' bathroom with the intention of carrying out lewd & lascivious acts.

The thing is though: when one has fully bought in to the "Reefer Madness" stuff about cisboys masquerading as transgirls in order to be permitted to enter the girls' bathroom in order to offend..... it appears to be laughably easy for one to reflexively see everything from that viewpoint.

It's Maslow's Hammer in action: if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:34 PM   #3555
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In other exciting anti-transgender news:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...complaint.html


Of course, when the Daily Mail is campaigning on your agenda, you just know you're going to end up on the right side of history*







* Not
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Old 13th January 2022, 08:15 PM   #3556
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, the "Trans boogieman" of the gaps argument once again.

Sounds to me like the admin didn't really know the facts of the incident very well. This doesn't reflect well on their concern for a sex crime happening under their supervision, but I'm not sure what other facts I'm supposed to glean from this.
Let me try it like this.

Other than those times when he was having a rendezvous with his sex partner, which bathroom did he use?


Do you have any evidence to support your answer?
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Old 14th January 2022, 05:15 AM   #3557
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Let me try it like this.

Other than those times when he was having a rendezvous with his sex partner, which bathroom did he use?


Do you have any evidence to support your answer?
I have no idea. I see no reason to assume someone who identified as a boy was using the women's restroom.

Your comment is an excellent illustration of the boogieman of the gaps approach to this.

Sure, just about everything said by this uninformed, braying mob about this case was wrong, but maybe, just maybe, they were right about this one thing we don't know.
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Old 14th January 2022, 06:56 AM   #3558
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I see no reason to assume someone who identified as a boy was using the women's restroom.
I'm guessing you've not yet seen him.
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:28 AM   #3559
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Yeah that’s a Look but not exactly a trans slam dunk. I had friends that identified as hot guys who didn’t follow no rules that had similar looks even way back in the 90’s.

ETA also (with apologies to any exceptions) no actual female-identifying person has ever worn a choker that said ‘kitten’ on it unironically without financial incentives.

Last edited by Lithrael; 14th January 2022 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:56 AM   #3560
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yeah that’s a Look but not exactly a trans slam dunk. I had friends that identified as hot guys who didn’t follow no rules that had similar looks even way back in the 90’s.

ETA also (with apologies to any exceptions) no actual female-identifying person has ever worn a choker that said ‘kitten’ on it unironically without financial incentives.
I think what's obvious is that it's a deliberately feminine gender expression. I can think of a few reasons someone might do that.

1. Pretending to be trans
2. Actually trans
3. Trolling the transphobes.

Any of those are also compatible with using a girls' bathroom, and we have no data to use to be certain whether or not he was doing that. I have expressed why I inferred that he was doing that, but I readily admit it is an inference based on incomplete, and possibly inaccurate, data. It is not confirmed. Perhaps we will learn more if a civil suit goes to trial.

4. This kid is one seriously messed up in the head kid, and doesn't really know what his own motive is. That is compatible with lots of different behaviors, and with the psychological profile summary described by the judge at the sentencing hearing.
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