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Old 13th January 2022, 01:51 PM   #41
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I don't know where you're getting this from. Where did I suggest such a thing?



Another bizarro line. What indignance? Your reading incomprehension is off the charts.
From your very first post where you question if those questioned had experience with both and suggest that they were not rationally informed.
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Old 13th January 2022, 04:36 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
From your very first post where you question if those questioned had experience with both and suggest that they were not rationally informed.
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Oh so they are just silly and don't know how good they have it?
This is incoherent. Most Black participants responded differently, so what does that say about "how good they have it"? Just bonkers.

This is like a sociology professor saying, "Prison guards make more than teachers. What does that say about society?" An economist might frame the question differently: "Prison guards make more than teachers. Why?"

To quote an overrated TV cop show: "Start asking the right ******* questions."
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:02 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's grant all the highlighted (and ignore that police have killed Whites in the same manner). Do those things happen at significant enough frequency to make fearing them sensibly outweigh your fear of being killed by a criminal? The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports for 2019 (the most recent I could find) shows that 7,484 Blacks were murdered that year. By comparison, according to Statista, 282 Blacks were killed by law enforcement that year. Thus, a Black in America was 26.5 times as likely to be killed by a criminal than by a cop, and of course the majority of the Blacks killed by cops aren't people who called them for help or who lived next door to a crime scene, but criminals themselves who are engaged in an effort to kill the cop who ends up killing them.
Sure but black people - well, people in general - don't get to choose when a murderer comes and kills them.

They do get to make a choice about whether or not to summon police after having been a victim of crime, though.
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:22 AM   #44
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I've never understood the "but what about all the white people police kill?" argument. Wouldn't that mean the problem of police abuse is real and the only thing we're getting wrong is who is the most likely victim?
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:24 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I've never understood the "but what about all the white people police kill?" argument. Wouldn't that mean the problem of police abuse is real and the only thing we're getting wrong is who is the most likely victim?
No it's just stupid "gotcha" from trolls on the right, thinking they can prove racism doesn't exist to tweak the libs.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I've never understood the "but what about all the white people police kill?" argument. Wouldn't that mean the problem of police abuse is real and the only thing we're getting wrong is who is the most likely victim?
Yeah, this. IME, cops give the hard treatment to people they perceive as scruffy enough to look like criminals. Yours truly has been at the receiving end of such treatment on the regular, even though I'm kind of white.

So do police generally view black people as scruffy enough to be more than likely criminals? Well, if black dudes are far more likely to be poor, and look the part, then of course. That'd be more a class thing than racial though. No doubt that there will be some cops that think any black face qualifies as looking "more criminal", but I think it is far more about class than race, generally. Police treat poor people like ****. A disproportionate amount of black people are poor. So black people are disproportionately treated like ****.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:34 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Irellevant... movies about sharks won't get you shot dead for having air fresheners hanging from your rear view mirror.

I'm not black - I'm not even brown, and I would not want to have ANY interaction whatsoever with American cops... too much chance of running into one that is poorly trained, arrogant and corrupt. Given the sheer number of black people murdered by cops in the US for going about their own legitimate business while Black, I'm not surprised that Blacks don't want to have any interaction with them.

If you don't understand that, then you are being wilfully blind.
I am curious, how many black people to you think are killed by cops every year? How many unarmed black people?

Sure, black people have greater reason to distrust cops that white people, but being more afraid of cops than criminals is not justified for anyone. It is, however, perfectly reasonable given the news coverage and popular narratives.

Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I've never understood the "but what about all the white people police kill?" argument. Wouldn't that mean the problem of police abuse is real and the only thing we're getting wrong is who is the most likely victim?
The charitable interpretation of that is the media is exactly that. Broaden the scope of the problem and more people will be interested in fixing it. Police brutality is a problem for everyone, not just black people. It also has the benefit of being true.

Last edited by ahhell; 14th January 2022 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:39 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I am curious, how many black people to you think are killed by cops every year? How many unarmed black people?

Sure, black people have greater reason to distrust cops that white people, but being more afraid of cops than criminals is not justified for anyone. It is, however, perfectly reasonable given the news coverage and popular narratives.
Police extrajudicially murdering Black people is the extreme end of a much larger problem.

To pretend that this phenomenon exists in a vacuum and dismiss it because it is statistically rare is disingenuous, at best.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:43 AM   #49
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I've said it elsewhere but its relevant here. Americans have an unrealistic understanding of how likely Black Americans are to be shot or otherwise harmed by cops. Cops have an unrealistic understanding of how likely they are to be shot by civilians, especially Black civilians. What is the logical result of that?

https://www.skeptic.com/research-cen...-CUPES-007.pdf
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:45 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Police extrajudicially murdering Black people is the extreme end of a much larger problem.

To pretend that this phenomenon exists in a vacuum and dismiss it because it is statistically rare is disingenuous, at best.
Not at all what I was doing, but you do you.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I've never understood the "but what about all the white people police kill?" argument. Wouldn't that mean the problem of police abuse is real and the only thing we're getting wrong is who is the most likely victim?
We generally accept that the police will be forced to kill some of the people they interact with in self-defense. So the question becomes whether they kill certain people disproportionately to their numbers in society, and the answer is yes, they do kill Blacks disproportionately to their numbers in society. In 2019, according to Statista, police killed 282 Blacks out of the 977 people where the race of the person killed was identified. That's 29% of the total. Given that Blacks account for a little over 13% of Americans, it is clear that they are killed by police at a rate about twice what they should given random chance.

Of course random chance does not describe society well at all. As it happens, Blacks have more than twice as many interactions with police compared to the average American. Now you can argue that reflects cop racism and I might argue that it just reflects where police presence is more common (in high-crime areas, which tend to be disproportionately Black).

BTW, that Statista site does have quite a bit of good news: the number of Blacks killed by law enforcement has dropped steeply the last two years to 165 in 2021. That's 117 more Black Lives living. In unrelated news, murders by criminals increased 30% in 2020; that would indicate an increase in the number of Blacks murdered of over 2,200. And the numbers have further increased in 2021.

I'm going to say it: Black Lives Matter killed more Blacks in 2020 than the cops have in the last 7 years.
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:30 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
We generally accept that the police will be forced to kill some of the people they interact with in self-defense.
We accept that they can kill people for more than just self-defense. That's a big part of the problem.

Quote:
So the question becomes whether they kill certain people disproportionately to their numbers in society
That's just one question. another would be "are they killing/injuring/arresting people far more than should be considered justified?"

Quote:
, and the answer is yes, they do kill Blacks disproportionately to their numbers in society. In 2019, according to Statista, police killed 282 Blacks out of the 977 people where the race of the person killed was identified.
Like I said before, those numbers are likely below what is really happening since law enforcement agencies report their own numbers and there is no standard or quality assurance.

Quote:
That's 29% of the total. Given that Blacks account for a little over 13% of Americans, it is clear that they are killed by police at a rate about twice what they should given random chance.
But it's not a random chance.

Quote:
Of course random chance does not describe society well at all. As it happens, Blacks have more than twice as many interactions with police compared to the average American. Now you can argue that reflects cop racism and I might argue that it just reflects where police presence is more common (in high-crime areas, which tend to be disproportionately Black).
I would also argue that police, and society at large, are trained to view areas that are predominately POC or poor a certain way.

Quote:
BTW, that Statista site does have quite a bit of good news: the number of Blacks killed by law enforcement has dropped steeply the last two years to 165 in 2021. That's 117 more Black Lives living. In unrelated news, murders by criminals increased 30% in 2020; that would indicate an increase in the number of Blacks murdered of over 2,200. And the numbers have further increased in 2021.
You're asserting that all of those murders were black victims.

Quote:
I'm going to say it: Black Lives Matter killed more Blacks in 2020 than the cops have in the last 7 years.
Except there has been no actual systemic change to explain police killing fewer black people. It is more likely police are being diverted elsewhere, like hospitals, and are also being hit particularly hard by COVID. The increase in violence amongst people is more likely to do with the effect COVID has had on the economy and social structures.

And you can assert anything you want. Just remember that no one is obliged to take you seriously.
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:38 AM   #53
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Fringe reset from the racist apologist right back to the beginning.

Shocking. Now everyone get ready to jump through all the hoops to reexplain everything from scratch as if we haven't already just to get them back to the wrong they were before.
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I'm going to say it: Black Lives Matter killed more Blacks in 2020 than the cops have in the last 7 years.
What the **** does this even mean?
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:16 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Not at all what I was doing, but you do you.
Totally what you're doing if you continue to act as if this problem exists in a vacuum.
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:23 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, this. IME, cops give the hard treatment to people they perceive as scruffy enough to look like criminals. Yours truly has been at the receiving end of such treatment on the regular, even though I'm kind of white.

So do police generally view black people as scruffy enough to be more than likely criminals? Well, if black dudes are far more likely to be poor, and look the part, then of course. That'd be more a class thing than racial though. No doubt that there will be some cops that think any black face qualifies as looking "more criminal", but I think it is far more about class than race, generally. Police treat poor people like ****. A disproportionate amount of black people are poor. So black people are disproportionately treated like ****.

This is called "profiling" and it is supposed to be forbidden if it's before the fact.
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:46 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I've never understood the "but what about all the white people police kill?" argument. Wouldn't that mean the problem of police abuse is real and the only thing we're getting wrong is who is the most likely victim?
I've mentioned this before, the local case where a girl's truck broke down, so she told her dad. He called the police to let them know it happened and that he was going to go out and work on it. He did that.

So he is working under the truck, and state police pulls up. He slides out from under the truck, and the cop notices he has a gun (licensed) in his belt, so shoots him.

Oh, the guy was white.

Who complained? Well, the family of the guy has sued the police. And BLM people have complained (although there haven't been big protests).

Who hasn't complained? The All Lives Matter crowd.

They don't care about about police shooting black people or white people.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:06 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I've mentioned this before, the local case where a girl's truck broke down, so she told her dad. He called the police to let them know it happened and that he was going to go out and work on it. He did that.

So he is working under the truck, and state police pulls up. He slides out from under the truck, and the cop notices he has a gun (licensed) in his belt, so shoots him.

Oh, the guy was white.

Who complained? Well, the family of the guy has sued the police. And BLM people have complained (although there haven't been big protests).

Who hasn't complained? The All Lives Matter crowd.

They don't care about about police shooting black people or white people.
That reminds me of a story about a white teenager in North Carolina who was shot a killed by police while he waited In a parked car in an IHOP parking lot for his friends to buy weed. Cops were there and the only people who were armed. Kid didn't even turn the engine on, but a cop shot into the car (which is apparently a big no-no).

The kid's father went on TV and complained about how no one from BLM was speaking up for his son, apparently ignorant of the fact that they were already raising money for the family's legal bills.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
That reminds me of a story about a white teenager in North Carolina who was shot a killed by police while he waited In a parked car in an IHOP parking lot for his friends to buy weed. Cops were there and the only people who were armed. Kid didn't even turn the engine on, but a cop shot into the car (which is apparently a big no-no).

The kid's father went on TV and complained about how no one from BLM was speaking up for his son, apparently ignorant of the fact that they were already raising money for the family's legal bills.
Do you have a link for this? The story sounds....improbable.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:08 PM   #60
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I've been searching for it, but it seems to be buried under a bunch of other stories
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:46 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What the **** does this even mean?

Retrocausality. (:


If we take the Statistica average of 300 killed per year by the cops
and the 2100 additional black killed from the year 2020 to the year 2021,
then division of one number by the other gives us seven years worth.

Of course we must make a few assumptions, namely that economic stress
due to lost jobs and other effects of the Covid-19 recession did not increase
the number of murders directly or indirectly over that year. And further we
must assume that the protests of BLM were effective in stopping community
policing, such that criminal could freely commit more murders.

If these assumption prove false, however, it will be an exercise for the reader.


P. S. I ought to create one of these threads. They're fun.
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