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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 21st December 2021, 01:23 PM   #2361
Allen773
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Really would be a shame if a majority of a major political party’a voters in the US did not accepted the legitimate outcome of a presidential election.

Oh wait.

Quote:
More than six months after the 2020 election and four months after Joe Biden's victory was confirmed by Congress, 25% of Americans surveyed, including 53% of Republicans, say Trump is still the "true president," a finding in line with polls showing that a significant portion of the USA does not accept the legitimacy of the presidential election.
https://usatoday.com/amp/7426714002

Perhaps some Americans are not “ready” for democracy. Of course, not all Republicans are right-wing extremists. I'm not even claiming a majority are.

But there are still a lot of them. And that’s a problem for the future of democracy and liberal values (liberal in the baseline “liberal democracy” sense, not in the “what the Democratic Party supports” sense).
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Old 21st December 2021, 01:26 PM   #2362
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Based on what? Wishful thinking?
How many ordinary Palestinians or Arabs in general who are angry at Israel, US (and other Western countries’) foreign policy, and their own despotic governments are directly influenced by Sayyid Qutb?

Also, I get the impression that some of you are arguing that if it were not for Islamists like Qutb, Arabs would be more “pro-Western” or even pro-Israel. I’ve got some bad news for you about the history of secular Arab governments and Palestinian groups.
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Old 21st December 2021, 01:38 PM   #2363
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He's not alone. His complaints are common.

Islamists want a global caliphate, and a caliphate is necessarily anti-democratic and anti-freedom. You can play ostrich all you want to about this reality, but it won't go away by ignoring it.
And many evangelicals want the globe to be a Christian Dominion, yet you don’t seem nearly as concerned about that. Not saying you should be, but having a lot of people who have illiberal anti-democratic views in a country is not in and of itself a major obstacle to a democracy. If that were the case, every Western democracy wouldn’t be democratic.

Perhaps some particular histories, political factors, and governance issues in the Arab world have more to do with the power and violence of extremist groups in those countries than merely the presence of Islamists. Perhaps all the state repression, wars, and failed or failing states have more to do with it, and the power of Islamists is as much a symptom as it is a cause. Just a thought.

Speaking of history: it is a documented fact that the US and its regional allies (including Israel, incidentally, but most notably and consequentially, Saudi Arabia) promoted “Pan-Islamism” during the Cold War. The version of this supported by King Faisal of Saudi Arabia was considered an especially attractive and powerful opposing force to anti-Western pan-Arabism/Arab nationalism, which was supported by the Soviet Union and was most famously embodied by Gamal Nasser of Egypt. I’m sure you’re familiar with this history.

And while we’re at it, Operation Cyclone in Afghanistan/Pakistan obviously did not create al-Qaeda or the Taliban, but it absolutely empowered Islamists among the Afghan mujahideen, along with Islamist forces elsewhere (most immediately in Pakistan). History matters and has ongoing consequences.

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Old 21st December 2021, 02:09 PM   #2364
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
And many evangelicals want the globe to be a Christian Dominion, yet you donít seem nearly as concerned about that.
Well, yes, because they don't matter. They aren't actually influential.

The Islamists are.

Quote:
Perhaps some particular histories, political factors, and governance issues in the Arab world have more to do with the power and violence of extremist groups in those countries than merely the presence of Islamists.
The Islamists not mutually exclusive with extremist groups. Pretty much every Arab or Muslim extremist group nowdays is Islamist. And yeah, the fact that they're powerful and violent is precisely my point.

And I'm really not interested in playing your game of how you can blame the US and Israel for everything. To the extent that we have contributed to the problem in the past, merely withdrawing now doesn't actually help solve it.
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Old 21st December 2021, 09:03 PM   #2365
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, yes, because they don't matter. They aren't actually influential.

The Islamists are.
Wasn't Mike Pence - the former Vice-President - an evangelical?

How is that not influential?
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Old 21st December 2021, 09:11 PM   #2366
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Wasn't Mike Pence - the former Vice-President - an evangelical?

How is that not influential?
I can’t believe I have to explain this, but Mike Pence doesn’t want a global Christian theocracy. Most evangelicals don’t.
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Old 21st December 2021, 11:01 PM   #2367
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I canít believe I have to explain this, but Mike Pence doesnít want a global Christian theocracy. Most evangelicals donít.
Just an American one.
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Old 22nd December 2021, 01:27 AM   #2368
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not trying to prove that because I don't need to, because that was never my claim. Most Arabs aren't terrorists, for example. But that doesn't mean terrorism isn't a problem. Likewise, it doesn't need to be a majority of Arabs that share Qutb's beliefs. There's a reason I specified "Islamist" when talking about the people who were intrinsically hostile to us. Not all Arabs are Islamists. I'm not even claiming a majority are.

But there are still a lot of them. And in undemocratic societies, the majority doesn't always matter.
But it is not just Palestinian muslims, but also Palestinian christians who are oppressed, and not by fundamentalist Islamists, but by fundamentalist Judaists who participate in what could be described as war crimes, such as ethnic cleansing, and occupation and colonisation of occupied territories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34020724

https://en.jerusalem-patriarchate.in...-of-jerusalem/

https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.o...ians-holy-land
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Old 22nd December 2021, 07:35 AM   #2369
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
But it is not just Palestinian muslims, but also Palestinian christians who are oppressed, and not by fundamentalist Islamists, but by fundamentalist Judaists who participate in what could be described as war crimes, such as ethnic cleansing, and occupation and colonisation of occupied territories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34020724

https://en.jerusalem-patriarchate.in...-of-jerusalem/

https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.o...ians-holy-land
None of your links actually support this claim. The first link isn't about fundamentalists at all. The next two links are essentially redundant (the third being a news story about the second), and while they reference "fringe radical groups", the identity of these groups is never specified.
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Old 22nd December 2021, 08:37 AM   #2370
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You seem to have missed this:
No. I didn't miss that at all. I even quoted it myself.
I am pointing out that you have shifted from saying 'Arab' to saying 'Islamists', whilst trying to claim that you didn't.
If by 'Arab', you actually meant 'Islamist' then just say so.
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Old 22nd December 2021, 08:49 AM   #2371
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/p...r-construction

Canít imagine why thereís any resentment toward Israelis among the Palestinians. Must all be irrational anti-Semitism!!!! /s
What this article is saying, in somewhat inflammatory language, is that, far from committing 'genocide' on the Palestinian Arabs, Israel is in fact offering jobs to them and trying to work with them. This is more than can be said for Hamas, which is spending the aid money on tunnels, bunkers and weapons, rather than using it to develop the economy of Gaza.
It is also more than can be said for the Gulf states. Contrary to what this article says, Palestinian workers are not welcome in most of those countries. I know- I have worked with Palestinians who have told me this. Workers of Palestinian origin cannot get work visas anywhere except Saudi Arabia: the other Gulf states don't want them. In Jordan, home to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians descended from the refugees, these unfortunate people cannot get residency, and will never be accepted as citizens of Jordan.
Why not?
Because if they were allowed to settle, then the endless sense of grievance would die out. By maintaining this situation, the Arab states ensure that there will always be a sizeable population bitterly opposed to Israel and the Jews.
Compare this situation with Partition: Indians and Pakistanis are now settled in their new homes, are full citizens of their now countries, and are not still waving around the keys to houses their great-grandparents once occupied, as embittered and stateless outcasts.
The situation in Palestine is being exploited and maintained by outside interests, very few of which have the welfare of the actual Palestinian Arabs at heart.
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Old 22nd December 2021, 09:11 AM   #2372
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No. I didn't miss that at all. I even quoted it myself.
I am pointing out that you have shifted from saying 'Arab' to saying 'Islamists', whilst trying to claim that you didn't.
If by 'Arab', you actually meant 'Islamist' then just say so.
My claim about intrinsic hostility was specific to Islamists. Arab propaganda hostile to the US and Israel is broader, but my claim about intrinsic hostility was specifically about Islamists. Again:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There's a reason I specified "Islamist" when talking about the people who were intrinsically hostile to us.
The topic of discussion changed some between my post about Arab propaganda and intrinsic Islamist hostility. Follow the thread carefully and you'll see that. There was no shift in my position, the topic shifted, as discussions often do.
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Old 22nd December 2021, 10:47 AM   #2373
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
My claim about intrinsic hostility was specific to Islamists. Arab propaganda hostile to the US and Israel is broader, but my claim about intrinsic hostility was specifically about Islamists. Again:



The topic of discussion changed some between my post about Arab propaganda and intrinsic Islamist hostility. Follow the thread carefully and you'll see that. There was no shift in my position, the topic shifted, as discussions often do.
No, that's still not true, and I will keep reposting your original quote until you actually acknowledge that you said it.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've seen how Arab propaganda works. It doesn't matter what we do, there's always an excuse. It doesn't even need to be vaguely true.



That is indeed correct. But I don't think you've fully grasped the implications. Given that their fundamental interest is in prolonging the conflict, do you really think there is any possible way we could have ever satisfied them? Of course not. There's no point in even trying.



The resolutions are part of the conflict. Having them pass wouldn't dampen it. Seriously, are you even aware of what the largest UN voting bloc is?

Do please point out where you said 'Islamists', and perhaps you could also explain which countries these Islamists control, so as to give them a vote in the UN.
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Old 22nd December 2021, 11:29 AM   #2374
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, that's still not true, and I will keep reposting your original quote until you actually acknowledge that you said it.
I never denied saying it. But you're confused about what else I said, and conflating different things.

Quote:
Do please point out where you said 'Islamists', and perhaps you could also explain which countries these Islamists control, so as to give them a vote in the UN.
This is a straw man.

Let's back up a second. First, I made this statement:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've seen how Arab propaganda works. It doesn't matter what we do, there's always an excuse. It doesn't even need to be vaguely true.
What counts as "Arab propaganda" is fairly broad. I didn't specify it in great detail, and frankly, as only one statement among many, I'm not all that interested in going into depth. Suffice to say, it includes stuff from religiously motivated Islamists as well as more "secular" national interests aligned with various governments.

You responded with the following:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I don't accept that. Why would Arabs be automatically anti-American?
I responded thusly:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They aren't all anti-American, even now.

But the Islamists are, and the reason should be obvious. Their values are in fundamental conflict with ours.
There are a few things of note here, which may be at the root of the confusion. First off, you said "automatically", which isn't quite what I originally said. I responded with "intrinsically", which admittedly isn't quite what you said. There are some differences here, which may appear subtle but they do matter.

Intrinsic isn't synonymous with automatic. An automatic response will happen without intervention, ie, automatic anti-Americanism will happen regardless of what we do. But the difference is that conditions which are necessary for that automatic response which DON'T depend on us may be superficial and subject to change. Intrinsic anti-Americanism, in contrast, depends on fundamental factors which will not go away unless there is some fundamental change in the nature of whoever is intrinsically anti-American. Intrinsic anti-Americanism will lead to automatic anti-Americanism, but it can be thought of as a subset. So pointing to Islamists isn't really intended to capture the entirety of arab propaganda, but more to point out one specific example of arabs who will engage in anti-American propaganda regardless of what we do.

Lastly, my original claim regarding arab propaganda wasn't about automatic anti-Americanism either. Some anti-Americanism in arab propaganda isn't really automatic, but is a deliberate and cynical conscious decision on the part of arab governments to distract from their own failures. The motive for such propaganda has nothing to do with what we have done, and everything to do with what they are doing. Hell, some of the propaganda isn't even about things anyone has actually done at all, but is completely fictitious. For example, there's an entire genre of conspiracy theories that Israel is using animals to spy on or even attack its neighbors.
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Old 23rd December 2021, 09:17 AM   #2375
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What counts as "Arab propaganda" is fairly broad. I didn't specify it in great detail, and frankly, as only one statement among many, I'm not all that interested in going into depth. Suffice to say, it includes stuff from religiously motivated Islamists as well as more "secular" national interests aligned with various governments.
I think, in the circumstances, you should actually go into detail. Thus far, you have claimed that the Arab world in general is anti-American, and that generalisation is clearly untrue. If you are going to stand by your original statement, you should back it up.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are a few things of note here, which may be at the root of the confusion. First off, you said "automatically", which isn't quite what I originally said. I responded with "intrinsically", which admittedly isn't quite what you said. There are some differences here, which may appear subtle but they do matter.

Intrinsic isn't synonymous with automatic. An automatic response will happen without intervention, ie, automatic anti-Americanism will happen regardless of what we do.
Which is what you said:
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've seen how Arab propaganda works. It doesn't matter what we do, there's always an excuse. It doesn't even need to be vaguely true.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But the difference is that conditions which are necessary for that automatic response which DON'T depend on us may be superficial and subject to change. Intrinsic anti-Americanism, in contrast, depends on fundamental factors which will not go away unless there is some fundamental change in the nature of whoever is intrinsically anti-American. Intrinsic anti-Americanism will lead to automatic anti-Americanism, but it can be thought of as a subset. So pointing to Islamists isn't really intended to capture the entirety of arab propaganda, but more to point out one specific example of arabs who will engage in anti-American propaganda regardless of what we do.
And once again, you are trying to distance yourself from your original statement.
Is it your opinion that a majority of Arabs are anti-American, whether intrinsically, automatically or otherwise?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Lastly, my original claim regarding arab propaganda wasn't about automatic anti-Americanism either. Some anti-Americanism in arab propaganda isn't really automatic, but is a deliberate and cynical conscious decision on the part of arab governments to distract from their own failures. The motive for such propaganda has nothing to do with what we have done, and everything to do with what they are doing. Hell, some of the propaganda isn't even about things anyone has actually done at all, but is completely fictitious. For example, there's an entire genre of conspiracy theories that Israel is using animals to spy on or even attack its neighbors.
I am well aware of Muslim conspiracy theories. I have posted numerous times, including in this very thread, about attempts by Arab governments and Islamist organisations to foment anti-American feeling and prolong this conflict.
However, you are still not dealing with those actions by America which are a genuine and justified cause of resentment and anti-Americanism in the Muslim world. This shrugging of the shoulders is, to my eyes, an equally cynical attempt to excuse American imperialism and anti-Muslim actions. How can you not see that this '***** 'em, they'll always hate us so let's just carry on bombing them anyway' attitude is as much a cause of the problem as anything Israel, Hamas or the Gulf state governments is doing?
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Old 23rd December 2021, 09:34 AM   #2376
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I think, in the circumstances, you should actually go into detail. Thus far, you have claimed that the Arab world in general is anti-American, and that generalisation is clearly untrue.
I didn't claim that either. Anti-Americanism is common in the Arab world (and I doubt you dispute that), but I never said it was "in general" anti-American.
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Old 23rd December 2021, 12:19 PM   #2377
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't claim that either. Anti-Americanism is common in the Arab world (and I doubt you dispute that), but I never said it was "in general" anti-American.
Actually, I do dispute that, and I also dispute your claim that this has nothing at all to do with American actions.
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Old 23rd December 2021, 01:49 PM   #2378
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, I do dispute that
It's your position that anti-Americanism is rare in the Arab world?

If so, then what's the problem?
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Old 23rd December 2021, 10:05 PM   #2379
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's your position that anti-Americanism is rare in the Arab world?

If so, then what's the problem?
There are points on that spectrum between 'common' and 'rare', you know.
Also: you said it was common and automatic. You have still not explained why you believe that, nor have you provided any evidence for that claim. This is the problem I have with your claim.
In my almost 8 years in the Gulf, I have not encountered any significant anti-American feeling from Arabs themselves. There are opinion articles in the papers (which are government controlled) which can display such a bias, but there are also articles in favour- much as there would be in any other country. My perception of the US is that you hate each other, and much of the world outside your country, to a far greater extent than Arabs hate you.

The anti-American views expressed in these articles are largely based on the issues I have mentioned previously, examples being the blanket protection afforded to Israel in the UN, the recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital, Trump's ban on Muslims entering America, and, of course, the Iraq invasion and the whole toxic fallout of Bush and the Neocons.
I still do not see that, if these kinds of activities were discontinued, that the large segments of Arab society you claim hate America would continue to do so.
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Old 25th December 2021, 04:54 AM   #2380
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I just want to add a little to my previous post.
Whilst it is not my experience that anti-Americanism is common in the Arab world, it is clear that anti-semitism is.
This ranges from anti-Zionism, and an opposition to the existence of Israel, to an overt hatred of Jews in general. Hitler, for example, is a much-admired figure here.
The problem with the unquestioning support the US offers Israel is that it draws fire from the anti-semites. I think this is what Ziggurat and others are seeing, and misinterpreting. By defending Israel, come what may, America is aligning itself with the Jews, and many Muslim Arabs don't like that at all. It also adds credence to the conspiracy theories about the strength and influence of the Jewish lobby.
Please note that I'm not saying this is good or right. I'm saying that what can appear to be anti-American feeling is only that by proxy, if you like. The situation is quite complex and nuanced, and perhaps my own insight, derived as I say from some years of living in the Arab world, may help to clarify this to a degree. Without appearing to be too patronising, it is my experience that many Americans do not know a great deal about the world outside their own country: some input then may be of benefit.
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Old 29th December 2021, 12:58 PM   #2381
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"Six Weeks Away from Nuclear Bomb Threshold"
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-690125

Israeli media is reporting that Iran now has only six weeks before they will have enriched enough material for bomb-making.
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Old 29th December 2021, 01:03 PM   #2382
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"Six Weeks Away from Nuclear Bomb Threshold"
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-690125

Israeli media is reporting that Iran now has only six weeks before they will have enriched enough material for bomb-making.
Iran has been "6 weeks away" or some other variant of this headline for my entire life.
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Old 30th December 2021, 11:08 PM   #2383
Allen773
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Interesting article.

Quote:
At its core, the Abraham Accords reboot the unsuccessful U.S. strategy of organizing the Middle East around isolating Iran, dividing the region between America and its partners on one hand, and Iran and its allies on the other. The Emiratis insist that the accords are not an anti-Iran alliance, but Kushner tells a different story. According to his strategy document, the “Accords serve to constrain shared threats from the Islamic Republic of Iran.”

This approach presumes that the rivalry of regional partners with Iran also is America’s fight, effectively equating America’s interest in the Middle East with that of Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE. It cements conflict while preventing collaboration between parties to resolve it. Tellingly, from the time that the U.S. first began organizing its policies in the Middle East around isolating Iran in the mid-1990s until the present, armed conflicts in the region have grown from 5 to 22.
Quote:
Normalizing relations, however, does help suppress opposition against Arab dictators, including their acceptance of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. Arab rulers in the Persian Gulf have been using sophisticated Israeli cyber technology to track peaceful dissidents at home as well as abroad. These advanced technologies will likely enable Arab dictators to keep the opposition in check in smaller countries. In more populous states like Morocco and Saudi Arabia, silencing dissent may prove too difficult. To many human rights defenders in the Middle East, the accords are seen as an instrument to help undemocratic but Israel-friendly regimes “cement their control over their peoples.” This should make Washington mindful of the radicalization and extremism that American support for Arab dictators has historically helped spur.

Perhaps most importantly, the strategy underpinning the Abraham Accords has a track record of locking in conflicts, raising tensions, and even increasing the risk of a military confrontation. As Steve Simon of the Quincy Institute has pointed out, if the UAE gives Israel access to its bases, it will significantly enhance Israel’s ability to bomb Iran and, by that, potentially increase Israel’s inclination to do so. Most analysts agree that such a measure would likely lead to a region-wide war that ultimately would suck in the U.S., at a time when Washington has finally managed to begin ending its wars in the Middle East.
https://prospect.org/world/better-wa...e-middle-east/
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Old 31st December 2021, 02:18 AM   #2384
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
The West is condemned if it tries to overthrow oppressive regimes in the ME.
It is also condemned if it does not overthrow oppressive regimes in the ME.

If the West does not intervene at all in that region, then other players, such as Russia, will have a free hand. This will lead to further instability and conflict. The rivalry between Iran and the Arab states will continue, as will the proxy wars that spring from it.
Any attempt to encourage better human rights and foster democracy in that area will be met by accusations of colonialism and cultural imperialism.

I'm wondering what your preferred solution is?
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Old 1st January 2022, 06:06 PM   #2385
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The West is condemned if it tries to overthrow oppressive regimes in the ME.
It is also condemned if it does not overthrow oppressive regimes in the ME.
Ö.

I'm wondering what your preferred solution is?
Preferred solutions always depend on goals. For some, the hilight is the goal.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 12:31 AM   #2386
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The West is condemned if it tries to overthrow oppressive regimes in the ME.
I'm wondering what your preferred solution is?
Solution? There is no one solution, certainly not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Ongoing diplomacy at every level with every country (and as many nonstate actors as possible) is the closest thing to a ďsolutionĒ we can hope for. War should be genuinely a last resort.

Thatís the short answer, I suppose.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 09:08 AM   #2387
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Solution? There is no one solution, certainly not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Ongoing diplomacy at every level with every country (and as many nonstate actors as possible) is the closest thing to a ďsolutionĒ we can hope for. War should be genuinely a last resort.

Thatís the short answer, I suppose.
Meaning, you disagree with at least part of your linked article.
Curious. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on this.
I wonder too where you stand on Hamas. For them, war is the first, and pretty much only, resort, and I don't see how this can be explained by funding and/or support from the west (which seems to have been your previous argument: apologies if I have misunderstood that).
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Old 2nd January 2022, 06:32 PM   #2388
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BREAKING NEWS: Israel under cyber warfare attack.
JerusalemPOST website taken down, replaced by threatening image.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/319730
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Old 10th January 2022, 03:59 PM   #2389
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Meaning, you disagree with at least part of your linked article.
Curious. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on this.
I wonder too where you stand on Hamas. For them, war is the first, and pretty much only, resort, and I don't see how this can be explained by funding and/or support from the west (which seems to have been your previous argument: apologies if I have misunderstood that).
I despise Hamas and I can also understand why some Palestinians preferred them over the PA.

Hamas wasn't funded by the West (as far as I know), but it absolutely has been generously funded over the decades by Western allies in the Gulf region, although my understanding is that Iran has contributed more support to them in recent years - though not as much as they have to Hezbollah, but of course Hezbollah was created by the Iranian Revolution Guards in cooperation with Syria back in the 80s.

Hamas has its roots more in the Muslim Brotherhood style Sunni Islamism. Wasn't Abdullah Azzam (aka the godfather of modern jihad and Osama bin Laden's most important mentor) one of their co-founders?

But one thing some former Israeli intelligence officers have outright said (whether you believe them or not is another question) is that when Hamas started operating, the Israelis saw them as potentially a counterweight to the PLO and other more secular/pan-Arab style Palestinian groups whom Israel had long been fighting. Anyone can understand this - you'd rather have your enemies divided and fighting each other than fighting you, yes? Israel is very far from alone on that, they certainly were neither the first nor the last to use divide and conquer tactics.
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Old 11th January 2022, 09:19 AM   #2390
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I despise Hamas and I can also understand why some Palestinians preferred them over the PA.

Hamas wasn't funded by the West (as far as I know), but it absolutely has been generously funded over the decades by Western allies in the Gulf region, although my understanding is that Iran has contributed more support to them in recent years - though not as much as they have to Hezbollah, but of course Hezbollah was created by the Iranian Revolution Guards in cooperation with Syria back in the 80s.

Hamas has its roots more in the Muslim Brotherhood style Sunni Islamism. Wasn't Abdullah Azzam (aka the godfather of modern jihad and Osama bin Laden's most important mentor) one of their co-founders?

But one thing some former Israeli intelligence officers have outright said (whether you believe them or not is another question) is that when Hamas started operating, the Israelis saw them as potentially a counterweight to the PLO and other more secular/pan-Arab style Palestinian groups whom Israel had long been fighting. Anyone can understand this - you'd rather have your enemies divided and fighting each other than fighting you, yes? Israel is very far from alone on that, they certainly were neither the first nor the last to use divide and conquer tactics.
My question was more about your views on force as opposed to diplomacy.
Do you think that Hamas will respond in any way to diplomacy?
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Old 14th January 2022, 06:01 AM   #2391
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cosmic yak, according to HAMAS' sacred Covenant, the answer to your question is absolutely "No way"
Quoting the preamble: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

and Article 11: "As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day...Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void."

and Article 13: "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement."
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:27 AM   #2392
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
cosmic yak, according to HAMAS' sacred Covenant, the answer to your question is absolutely "No way"
Quoting the preamble: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

and Article 11: "As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day...Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void."

and Article 13: "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement."
Well, firstly, I know that, which is why I was asking Allen773 that question.
Secondly, that isn't quite fair, because Hamas has issued a new, updated and somewhat less nasty charter. They still want to destroy Israel, and they still rule out any peaceful solution, but the weird stuff about the Rotary and Lions Clubs has been removed, and it is slightly more conciliatory in tone.
Slightly.
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Old 14th January 2022, 03:38 PM   #2393
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, firstly, I know that, which is why I was asking Allen773 that question.
Secondly, that isn't quite fair, because Hamas has issued a new, updated and somewhat less nasty charter. They still want to destroy Israel, and they still rule out any peaceful solution, but the weird stuff about the Rotary and Lions Clubs has been removed, and it is slightly more conciliatory in tone.
Slightly.
Yeah, they wanted to appear less anti-semitic and become more focused on anti-Zionist rhetoric. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39744551

HAMAS also dropped references to the Muslim Brotherhood, which was a strategic decision aimed at improving relations with the outside world, including Egypt and Gulf Arab states where the Brotherhood is also banned.

The new revised document, which HAMAS says does not replace the charter, is designed to appeal more to Western sensibilities, and 'soften' their strident image.

Of course, the new document does not recognize Israel's right to exist in any part of the land and doesn't renounce the continued use of violence against Israel.
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:24 PM   #2394
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Yeah, they wanted to appear less anti-semitic and become more focused on anti-Zionist rhetoric. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39744551

HAMAS also dropped references to the Muslim Brotherhood, which was a strategic decision aimed at improving relations with the outside world, including Egypt and Gulf Arab states where the Brotherhood is also banned.

The new revised document, which HAMAS says does not replace the charter, is designed to appeal more to Western sensibilities, and 'soften' their strident image.

Of course, the new document does not recognize Israel's right to exist in any part of the land and doesn't renounce the continued use of violence against Israel.
Which I already said.
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Old 15th January 2022, 06:37 AM   #2395
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which I already said.
Yep, and we still don't see any reply from Allen773. He is apparently sticking to his posting that indicates "Ongoing diplomacy" is the panacea.

HAMAS is increasing their 'combat readiness' and that is the route they desire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koafzVI6wLQ
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