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Tags glenn beck , racism charges

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Old 14th January 2022, 08:26 AM   #201
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The choice to call them a black guy and a white guy instead of just guys (or even just people) was yours.
This is how I'm seeing it. Beck clearly has an interest in oldish art. His subjects feature Jesse Owens, Lou Gehrig, Presidents Washington and Lincoln, Amelia Earhart, the Lone Ranger and Tonto, etc, and he hawks prints of his work online. Everything someone does doesn't have to be so single-minded in motivation.

And dog-whistling. Is this painting really supposed to get racists all wink-and-nodding? I'd bet none actually caught that. They're not a subtle and perceptive bunch.
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:32 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yes it bloody well was. Because they actually are, I know it’s hard to see this, a black guy and a white guy.

I’ve never run into a more obvious example of how disingenuous this ‘colorblind’ **** is.
I get your point, but I don't think most normies focus on someone's race as an identifier of who they are. Joe Louis is not thought of as primarily a Black Man. He was primarily a Great American Boxer. Kind of like normies don't think of Marjorie Greene as a Blonde Woman. She's thought of as a Bat **** Crazy Woman.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:47 PM   #203
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I didn't say I couldn't tell the difference. The point was not about being unable to tell the difference but about having that be where one's mind immediately goes upon sight. The fact that you show no concept of any separation at all between awareness of races' existence and having them be the first & foremost thing on your mind whenever possible is psychologically fascinating.

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Old 14th January 2022, 01:16 PM   #204
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I’d write “ignoring context” in bigger, flashier letters but you guys’ posts are probably doing a better job of illustrating that particular point already.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:30 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I’d write “ignoring context” in bigger, flashier letters but you guys’ posts are probably doing a better job of illustrating that particular point already.
It's not about ignoring context: it's about a desperate attempt to paint you as the racist.
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Old 14th January 2022, 05:44 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
¡¡¡¡¡ignoring context!!!!!
(Sorry, the "blinking" tag was eliminated years ago.)

Part of what you're calling "context" appears to be a principle that, once you've determined that somebody has a particular trait, everything that person ever does from then on must always be because of that trait; other reasons that everybody else has for doing stuff entirely disappear for that person with that one trait. And if that's what we're calling context, then no, I don't ignore it; I reject it as nonsense. And I'm sure you do too, for almost any other trait. Would you say everything a chef does must be because of being a chef? Would you say everything a cheerleader does must be because of being a cheerleader? Would you say everything a lawyer does must be because of being a lawyer? Would you say everything a gardener does must be because of being a gardener? If not, then you yourself don't really buy the principle you're trying to sell. (And if you did, you'd have no ability to account for people with more than one trait, which is everybody.)
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Old 14th January 2022, 06:37 PM   #207
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I would not say everything a person does is ‘because of’ such a trait, but I would absolutely say everything a person does is informed by such a trait. That’s sort of what people are, a collection of traits that inform their choices. And a big one for Beck is playing up to his white supremacist audience to make them feel like he’s their own little q-anon type guy. He plays up to his regular run of the mill racist audience and his conservative apologist audiences as well, slightly differently. An image like that is a two-fer, the actual nazi fans get to feel like it’s a wink at them, and the apologists get to go ‘oh really you only notice that he’s black?’ to the libs. It probably doesn’t actually do anything for the run of the mill racists though.

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Old 14th January 2022, 08:11 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Part of what you're calling "context" appears to be a principle that, once you've determined that somebody has a particular trait, everything that person ever does from then on must always be because of that trait.
FFS! No, no, no! If that is your takeaway from what is being said here, then you have completely misunderstood. I'm sick of repeating this, but I will continue to do so until the ignorant take notice....

"Its not a matter of trying to find excuses to not believe an explanation, its a matter of deciding what is more believable. In this case, a media personalty who is well-known for his overt racism and support of white supremacists, paints a picture of a well known black boxer on the canvas after having been knocked down by a white boxer from Nazi Germany (fully knowing that the Nazis used that event to promote their racist Aryan propaganda) hangs the painting in full view of his mostly racist followers as he talks to them, because

a. It reminds him about some noble issue regarding never being down and out, or

b. he's dog-whistling his racism to the racists who watch his show.

For mine, Glenn Beck's history of racism speaks loudly to his motivations, and leads me to believe that "b" is the most the obvious correct answer - I find the latter far more likely to be the truth than the redemption inspiration bull-**** he's been spewing. This guy is a grifter, he lies for a living - now you can call it "the boy who cried wolf" or "leopards never change their spots" - I don't care

No-one is saying that Beck MUST be using his painting as a racist dogwhistle. They are saying they believe it is more likely he is than he isn't. If you choose buy Beck's story, you are entirely free to do so - no one cares one way or the other.

AFAIC, you seem to be naively seeing "two guys, one on the mat and one standing"; you claim that your own colour-blindness makes their colour unimportant, and that the people who see their colour must themselves be racists. In the context of modern America, this is a feat of contextless virtue signalling that is staggering beyond belief.

People who recognise the dogwhistle here are not racists, they are realists. Don't take any notice of the drivel being served up by Ziggurat - racists in Beck's regular audience of racists, far right and extreme right conservatives and white supremacists, hear and fully understand the dogwhistle, those of us who are realists are experienced enough in dealing with racists to recognise it for what it is.
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Old Today, 03:30 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Part of what you're calling "context" appears to be a principle that, once you've determined that somebody has a particular trait, everything that person ever does from then on must always be because of that trait; other reasons that everybody else has for doing stuff entirely disappear for that person with that one trait. And if that's what we're calling context, then no, I don't ignore it; I reject it as nonsense. And I'm sure you do too, for almost any other trait. Would you say everything a chef does must be because of being a chef? Would you say everything a cheerleader does must be because of being a cheerleader? Would you say everything a lawyer does must be because of being a lawyer? Would you say everything a gardener does must be because of being a gardener?
"Everything", unqualified? Of course not; that would be silly. I do not think the type of wood Glenn Beck chose to trim his home's interior with, for instance, must have some nexus to his being a racist.

But I don't think it is going too far to suspect that once a person is verified to be racist and friendly to white-supremacist concepts and thought-leaders, that characteristic is likely to have a bearing on their interactions and relationships with non-white people. A racist worldview is relevant to one's mindset.

The incident Glenn Beck has chosen to commemorate with his paintbrush, was used as Nazi propaganda. Glenn Beck is known to be influenced by white supremacist ideology. That's not a forced link to make; it's legitimate to wonder if there may be a connection.

And given Beck's also-established penchant for outright dishonesty under his public persona, it's likewise not unfair to treat his claim about the matter with skepticism, all other issues notwithstanding.
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Old Today, 12:10 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The incident Glenn Beck has chosen to commemorate with his paintbrush, was used as Nazi propaganda.
...as part of a tale of how they got their comeuppance for it because they were shown to be so gloriously wrong. That's as much the opposite of Nazi propaganda as it's even possible to be. You're "ignoring context"!!!
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Old Today, 12:42 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...as part of a tale of how they got their comeuppance for it because they were shown to be so gloriously wrong. That's as much the opposite of Nazi propaganda as it's even possible to be. You're "ignoring context"!!!
If you believe that was Beck's thinking, the he should have shown the second fight not the first, or at the very least, both.
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Old Today, 01:05 PM   #212
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...if that were the way comeback stories as inspirational posters were generally done, which it isn't.
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Old Today, 01:08 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
People who recognise the dogwhistle here are not racists, they are realists. Don't take any notice of the drivel being served up by Ziggurat - racists in Beck's regular audience of racists, far right and extreme right conservatives and white supremacists, hear and fully understand the dogwhistle, those of us who are realists are experienced enough in dealing with racists to recognise it for what it is.
You keep saying that Beck's audience is interpreting his painting as racist, but you've provided no evidence of this. I suspect you haven't even looked for evidence of this. It's just an article of faith with you. You cannot even conceive of any other reality.
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Old Today, 01:30 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You keep saying that Beck's audience is interpreting his painting as racist, but you've provided no evidence of this.
Even a bit of evidence for any example of the "dogwhistle" concept, anywhere, ever, would be an improvement, at least for the general concept even if not for this example... but that might be better suited for a separate new thread.
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Old Today, 01:33 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Even a bit of evidence for any example of the "dogwhistle" concept, anywhere, ever, would be an improvement, at least for the general concept even if not for this example... but that might be better suited for a separate new thread.
Indeed, given how common the dog whistle accusation is made, it's quite remarkable that there's basically never any evidence that the supposed audience ever actually takes it that way.
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Old Today, 02:01 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Even a bit of evidence for any example of the "dogwhistle" concept, anywhere, ever, would be an improvement, at least for the general concept even if not for this example... but that might be better suited for a separate new thread.
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Old Today, 02:03 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5d91acc1f7.gif
Or do you not see anything wrong with this either?
We both know he'll pretend he doesn't.

"It's not racism unless you sign a form saying 'I'm doing this for the sole reason of racism'" is the only standard they are going to accept.

And all trolls think "LOL you can't technically prove it" type non-plausible deniability is super-clever.
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Old Today, 02:06 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...if that were the way comeback stories as inspirational posters were generally done, which it isn't.
Citation needed.
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Old Today, 02:12 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Indeed, given how common the dog whistle accusation is made, it's quite remarkable that there's basically never any evidence that the supposed audience ever actually takes it that way.
I searched for "evidence for dogwhistle politics" and the first hit was this, "The Effects of Dog-Whistle Politics on Political Violence." No indication if it has been published or peer-reviewed.

Just got this, too: "DOG WHISTLE POLITICS
HOW CODED RACIAL APPEALS HAVE REINVENTED RACISM AND WRECKED THE MIDDLE CLASS
" from the Berkeley school of law, published by Oxford (in 2013?).

I have no idea if the conclusions in these papers are valid. The first paper has a bunch of numbers in tables, so it looks pretty science-y at least.
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Old Today, 02:13 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You keep saying that Beck's audience is interpreting his painting as racist, but you've provided no evidence of this. I suspect you haven't even looked for evidence of this. It's just an article of faith with you. You cannot even conceive of any other reality.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We both know he'll pretend he doesn't.

"It's not racism unless you sign a form saying 'I'm doing this for the sole reason of racism' is the only standard they are going to accept.

And all trolls think "LOL you can't technically prove it" is super-clever.
Exactly. As I said before, racists don't generally come out in public and declare it unless they're in a place they feel safe to do so such as a private group or among the like-minded.

Certain people won't be happy until we can produce a quote from an avowed racist who tweets: "I, John Doe, being a white supremacist who hates anyone not white, interpret Glenn Beck's painting of Max Schmeling knocking out that ****** Louis as showing how white people are the superior race."
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Old Today, 02:40 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Exactly. As I said before, racists don't generally come out in public and declare it unless they're in a place they feel safe to do so such as a private group or among the like-minded.
There are plenty of "private" groups and spaces which the public can still access, and where explicitly racist rhetoric is easy to find. Racists are not the smartest group of people, they aren't good at hiding things.
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Old Today, 02:51 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Okay granting Beck's wacky history and all that I still don't know where we go from here...

It's either veneration of the "American fighting spirit", maybe with a dash of racial tokenism, or a blatant racist dog whistle. Don't ya'll think the former is just as if not more likely given Beck's main audience and the circles he inhabits?
This seems like the most likely version to me. I think the dogwhistle bit, while possible, probably attributes more subtlety to Beck than he possesses. It's a famous photograph (and let's face it, it's a pretty good one too), the context involves a comeback which to Beck's distorted view is a redemption, as if losing were a crime, with a little racial tokenism thrown in with the idea of redemption, as if being just plain black were insufficient.

Of course it could be a dogwhistle too, but Beck might be as much the recipient as the sender. And given his combination of cleverness, deviousness, and utter stupidity, he could also just be too dense to see the wider significance of anything he does or says.

It all seems a little like a nothingburger, best dismissed by realizing that Beck, though a right-wing, hateful, racist *******, is also too confused and compromised to make real sense, and trying to make sense about anything he says or does threatens to lower us to his level of stupidity. Start trying to parse what he has on his walls and why, and next thing you know you'll be sticking pushpins and little trails of yarn on a map of the zodiac.
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Old Today, 02:52 PM   #223
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The inherent difficulty of proving things with no evidence is not my problem.

Other people's desire to do so is theirs.
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Old Today, 03:00 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are plenty of "private" groups and spaces which the public can still access, and where explicitly racist rhetoric is easy to find. Racists are not the smartest group of people, they aren't good at hiding things.
Links?
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Old Today, 03:02 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You keep saying that Beck's audience is interpreting his painting as racist, but you've provided no evidence of this. I suspect you haven't even looked for evidence of this. It's just an article of faith with you. You cannot even conceive of any other reality.
Yeah, like racists are going to publicly admit their racism

My article of faith is obvious racism (which this is) is obvious

As for obvious racism is never racism... that's your article of faith!
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Old Today, 03:03 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...as part of a tale of how they got their comeuppance for it because they were shown to be so gloriously wrong.
LOL, no. Louis's win wasn't particularly used as anti-Nazi propaganda in the US.

But again, it hardly matters because the moment Beck is depicting isn't the moment of Louis's win.
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Old Today, 03:03 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are plenty of "private" groups and spaces which the public can still access, and where explicitly racist rhetoric is easy to find. Racists are not the smartest group of people, they aren't good at hiding things.
Yeah, and how many of them do not hide behind anonymity?
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Old Today, 03:15 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The inherent difficulty of proving things with no evidence is not my problem.

Other people's desire to do so is theirs.
JESUS H. TAPDANCING CHRIST!!! YOU STILL DON'T GET IT DO YOU?

Nobody is trying to prove anything here (except perhaps those who have no ******* capacity to undersand what is being said to them)

This is about what you believe, not what you know

I believe Beck's painting is a racist dogwhistle. I have stated the reasons why I believe this, including Beck's long, clear and obvious history of racism, of supporting white supremacism and of telling lie, after lie, after lie, after lie, after lie.

No, I don't have to provide evidence that his audience interprets it that way, because I am not making such a claim.

Give me some reasons why I should extend him ANY benefit of the doubt whatsoever after such a history? Go on, Delvo. and Zig... make the effort! Show me some evidence that Beck is telling the truth here, and that I have misjudged him...
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Old Today, 03:32 PM   #229
Brainster
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I’d write “ignoring context” in bigger, flashier letters but you guys’ posts are probably doing a better job of illustrating that particular point already.
Try writing confirmation bias instead.
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Old Today, 03:33 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nobody is trying to prove anything here (except perhaps those who have no ******* capacity to undersand what is being said to them)

This is about what you believe, not what you know
Well. That's a rather more honest admission than I expected.

OK then. No point in further discussion. Knowledge is susceptible to evidence, but belief usually isn't.
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Old Today, 03:38 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well. That's a rather more honest admission than I expected.

OK then. No point in further discussion. Knowledge is susceptible to evidence, but belief usually isn't.
I said this exact same thing since the beginning, and repeated the same thing in several posts

Do make at least some effort to keep up.

ETA: Of course, Beck's known history of racism, bigotry and lying IS evidence!
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Old Today, 04:28 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Try writing confirmation bias instead.
Background knowledge (Bayesian) isn't confirmation bias unless it ignores what we observe (which doesn't apply in Beck's case).

ETA: The background knowledge for this thread is Beck's history of racism, etc. If we had observed something that contributed to the likelihood that Beck's painting did *not* have racist intent, but we ignored that because he's been such a racist in the past, that would be confirmation bias: interpreting current evidence to be irrelevant or ignored so that our previous opinion (he's racist) can stand. that's not what's happening here, though. Smartcooky's belief is based on our background knowledge. We don't have any evidence that's I'm aware of, one way or the other, besides our background knowledge, that Beck's showing of his painting was intended as a dogwhistle. But using background knowledge is not confirmation bias.
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Old Today, 04:32 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are plenty of "private" groups and spaces which the public can still access, and where explicitly racist rhetoric is easy to find. Racists are not the smartest group of people, they aren't good at hiding things.
Links?
Still waiting for those links, Zig.
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Old Today, 04:43 PM   #234
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I tend to concur with Smartcooky, except that I am not convinced Beck has the intelligence or reflective honesty to understand what he does when he does it. I am quite willing to believe he propagates racist dogwhistles, both receiving and inventing, but that his bias and cluelessness are so deeply ingrained that to infer conscious intent or consistency of point of view may be to credit him with more organized thought than he can muster. He is, after all, quite capable of being a raging racist and claiming he is the opposite, and like his hero ex president he may well be too stupid to understand the difference between what he claims and what he is.

My claim that this is a nothingburger is not to deny that the picture is inappropriate, since even he and his seemingly non-racist apologists insert what I would consider wrong thinking into their arguments. It's to assert that he is far too confused, and his thinking far too remote from rational reflection, to attribute anything meaningful to what he seems to do. Good education can give even a fool like Beck an articulate veneer, but he's a fool nonetheless, and speculating about the meaning of something he does has little more usefulness than organizing piles of **** by their color.
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