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Tags 2020 elections , Biden administration , Biden controversies , joe biden , Kamala Harris

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Old 14th January 2022, 09:30 AM   #3121
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm sorry I'm not treating the idea of "far left progressives" with the appropriate respect.
*Shrugs* Prove me wrong then.

You and any random Trumper both think the system is too broken for your side to win so the only answer is tearing it down so your side can take control after the fact. You both are unconcerned bordering on gleeful at the idea of collateral damage. You both have that same "I know what I'm saying is going to get a negative response" chips on your shoulders.

The only difference is the nouns.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:33 AM   #3122
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* Prove me wrong then.

You and any random Trumper both think the system is too broken for your side to win so the only answer is tearing it down so your side can take control after the fact. You both are unconcerned bordering on gleeful at the idea of collateral damage. You both have that same "I know what I'm saying is going to get a negative response" chips on your shoulders.

The only difference is the nouns.
That's the problems with the libs. It turns out what they hated most about Trump wasn't all the awful policies, the overt racism, the open flirtation with fascism, it's just that he was so disorderly

Institutions are failing. The right wing is entrenching itself as a permanent ruling majority. The right wing has SCOTUS on lock for a lifetime. Voting isn't going to matter in the near future at this pace. Things might have to get a bit disorderly to get better. Or you can just lie back and let it happen. It'll be bad, but it'll be orderly if you don't make a fuss.

If in 2024 a coalition of liberals and progressive-far left (whatever the hell that means) throws a riot in response to some fascist authoritarian trying to steal the election, are you going to have a problem with that too?
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:43 AM   #3123
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You think hating Centrists is the same thing as having an opinion, goals, standards of your own, or a point.

Again you are exactly note for note, beat for beat, where Trumpers were at about 2 or 3 years before Trump really happened. Primed and ready.

You are just begging for some charismatic Progressive to ask you to drink the Kool-Aid.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:47 AM   #3124
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Are you kidding? You think the legislature should pick the electors instead of the voters? No matter what the majority of the voters want? Do you really need to have the problem explained to you?
Like many right wingers, if it's legal, they think it's ok. If there was a law that allowed for lynching black people, for example, they would see no problem with lynching black people.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:53 AM   #3125
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Like many right wingers, if it's legal, they think it's ok. If there was a law that allowed for lynching black people, for example, they would see no problem with lynching black people.
That's been their whole routine for a while. How many arguments are basically some version "Yeah we're evil, but we're doing it by the book so LOL don't hate the playa, hate the game?"

Like the cheering right now that Supreme Court probably literally just sentenced millions of Americans to death but all their legal babble lined up and that's what's really important.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:56 AM   #3126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's been their whole routine for a while. How many arguments are basically some version "Yeah we're evil, but we're doing it by the book so LOL don't hate the playa, hate the game?"

Like the cheering right now that Supreme Court probably literally just sentenced millions of Americans to death but all their legal babble lined up and that's what's really important.
Yep, that's what they do. Unless the law stops them from doing something evil, then the law doesn't matter. The reality is that they do evil using any justification. Well.. these days, they don't even try to justify their evil acts quite often.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:59 AM   #3127
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Again because the want, want so bad, to drop say the quiet part out loud.

They hate, seeth, at the fact that they have to justify their actions to a bunch of limp wristed libruls.

They full mast for the day they can finally just go "Right and wrong don't matter, I'm doing what I want and taking what I want because you can't stop me."
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:02 AM   #3128
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And Republicans just keep refusing or undermining such because they're not getting enough in the way of kickbacks to make it worth their while?
I assume it's because nobody's getting narrowly-focused "small" infrastructure bills to a floor vote. Instead it's this multi-trillion-dollar thing, one of those "we have to pass it to see what's in it" bills.

I bet if the Dems started flooding the floor with ten-bridges-at-a-time infrastructure bills, Republicans would both find it much harder to defend opposing those bills, and find it easy enough to arrange a satisfactory horse-trading/pork-barreling/kickbacking scheme.
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:08 AM   #3129
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When Republicans sponsor a bill and then condemn that same bill as soon as the Democrats are on board, it's because of the size of the bill?

I don't buy that for a minute.
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:13 AM   #3130
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
When Republicans sponsor a bill and then condemn that same bill as soon as the Democrats are on board, it's because of the size of the bill?

I don't buy that for a minute.
Which bill?
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:36 AM   #3131
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
When Republicans sponsor a bill and then condemn that same bill as soon as the Democrats are on board, it's because of the size of the bill?

I don't buy that for a minute.
The people making that argument don't buy it either, it's just something they say to take the focus away from them.

Again when someone who's not wearing pants walks up and starts screaming about your fly being down, you noticing and pointing on that disparage is something they have to be counting on.

When the wrongness and the hypocrisy is that in our faces, it has to an intentional flex of some kind. They are doing it on purpose. Nobody is THAT clueless.

It's like when Mitch McConnell called Biden "not Presidential" acting 4 years of being so far up Trump's ass he could pass through customs. He didn't say that NOT expecting people to notice the inconsistency and react to it.

Same thing here. The people on this board who say one thing when the Republicans do it and a total other when the Dems do it aren't doing it hoping we won't notice or comment.
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:32 AM   #3132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I assume it's because nobody's getting narrowly-focused "small" infrastructure bills to a floor vote. Instead it's this multi-trillion-dollar thing, one of those "we have to pass it to see what's in it" bills.

I bet if the Dems started flooding the floor with ten-bridges-at-a-time infrastructure bills, Republicans would both find it much harder to defend opposing those bills, and find it easy enough to arrange a satisfactory horse-trading/pork-barreling/kickbacking scheme.
Yes, exactly. Republicans just want a more narrowly-focused bill that would address their economic concerns, and then they would totally be on board.

But then again, maybe that's just a crock of ****:

Trump campaign unveils plan to spend $1 trillion on roads, bridges, and other infrastructure with no tax hikes
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:37 AM   #3133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You think hating Centrists is the same thing as having an opinion, goals, standards of your own, or a point.

Again you are exactly note for note, beat for beat, where Trumpers were at about 2 or 3 years before Trump really happened. Primed and ready.

You are just begging for some charismatic Progressive to ask you to drink the Kool-Aid.
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Again, Trump is bad because he wants bad things. His political tactics were good. It's not even a subjective question, the proof is in how quickly and completely he has dominated the right wing political scene.

It would be good for someone on the liberal/progressive side to come along and upset the apple cart. The enthusiasm gap is huge and we have to catch up fast.

What exactly do you see as the alternative that doesn't just end where Biden is now?
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:52 AM   #3134
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You are just begging for some charismatic Progressive to ask you to drink the Kool-Aid.
And force their horrible progressive agenda of voting rights and universal health care on the innocent populace. Exactly like Trump in every respect!
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:16 PM   #3135
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
And force their horrible progressive agenda of voting rights and universal health care on the innocent populace. Exactly like Trump in every respect!
Trump wasn't a very good conservative, or even very conservative at all. I think Joe's point is that getting an opportunistic, populist demagogue into office isn't the same as getting a principled progressive into office. And that maybe running the opportunistic, populist demagogue playbook is not a good strategy for getting a principled progressive into office.
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Old 14th January 2022, 12:43 PM   #3136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump wasn't a very good conservative, or even very conservative at all. I think Joe's point is that getting an opportunistic, populist demagogue into office isn't the same as getting a principled progressive into office. And that maybe running the opportunistic, populist demagogue playbook is not a good strategy for getting a principled progressive into office.
Trump is a conclusion, not an exception. He is the natural endpoint of the course the GOP has been on since Reagan, with all semblance of cooperation stripped away until all that's left is naked venality and glowering hatred. His only failing in the eyes of conservatives is his bumbling incompetence at pretending to be anything else.

And yet he still got a slim minority of the vote, because he said what he wanted to do and he meant it.

Somehow, appearing to actually give a **** and not sit above it all is tantamount to being Trump in the eyes of the Dem establishment.

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Old 14th January 2022, 01:09 PM   #3137
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'd love to see Trump have a meltdown when pressed about Jan. 6 and his lies about the 'stolen' election. Because you know he would not be able to control himself if pressed hard enough.
His voters won't want him to control himself.

Shocking the libs and saying the quiet part out loud is big part of his appeal. I really thought we'd be done with the idea that shame would have any impact on him or his voters.
Who said anything about his followers or shame having any impact on them? Certainly not me. I know better. I don't care what his followers want or think. But a crazy meltdown with a ranting, frothing mouthed Trump might be enough for those complacents who might need a nudge to get out and vote.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:11 PM   #3138
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I come back to this question now. What should Biden do?
Fail so you can go "I told you so."
Sadly, I think you're 100% correct on this.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:22 PM   #3139
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I have no doubt that many in the American left will cling onto an opportunistic leftwing demagogue as Republicans did with Trump, but the MAGA base is much larger than their counterparts in the Democratic coalition.

Good thing people like SuburbanTurkey are the most "militant" you'll probably ever see in the mainstream.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:54 PM   #3140
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I have no doubt that many in the American left will cling onto an opportunistic leftwing demagogue as Republicans did with Trump, but the MAGA base is much larger than their counterparts in the Democratic coalition.

Good thing people like SuburbanTurkey are the most "militant" you'll probably ever see in the mainstream.
"Militant" types aren't really interested in electoralism as a solution.
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:55 PM   #3141
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Why isn't there a filibuster thread yet? The whole thing started when senators talked forever, and there was no rule to cut off discussion. Thus they came up with the 60 vote rule to bring the matter to an end. The yapping. But the 60 is arbitrary. 51 is enough.
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Old 14th January 2022, 03:20 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Why isn't there a filibuster thread yet? The whole thing started when senators talked forever, and there was no rule to cut off discussion. Thus they came up with the 60 vote rule to bring the matter to an end. The yapping. But the 60 is arbitrary. 51 is enough.
Good recent discussion related to the filibuster here
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Old 14th January 2022, 05:48 PM   #3143
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OK
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:20 PM   #3144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I assume it's because nobody's getting narrowly-focused "small" infrastructure bills to a floor vote. Instead it's this multi-trillion-dollar thing, one of those "we have to pass it to see what's in it" bills.

I bet if the Dems started flooding the floor with ten-bridges-at-a-time infrastructure bills, Republicans would both find it much harder to defend opposing those bills, and find it easy enough to arrange a satisfactory horse-trading/pork-barreling/kickbacking scheme.
22,000 ten-bridges at a time infrastructure bills just to address the current issues with repairs there? That's before getting to all the rest of the basic infrastructure priorities? To be clear, your suggestion does sound nice, it's just woefully inadequate and doesn't actually present a better solution than a multi-trillion-dollar thing, one of those "we have to pass it to see what's in it" bills. More could be said there, but, frankly, the real problem at hand really should be easy to spot. To raise an simple example of such, even when it comes to disaster relief, Republican politicians, seemingly as a matter of course, are happy to raise utterly inane objections to blue state disaster relief and vote against it, while embracing red state disaster relief. Democrats, on the other hand, fairly reliably vote in favor of reasonable relief for both red and blue states. In short, Republican politicians are rarely actually acting for the good of the country in such matters, while Democrats keep trying to act for the good of the country. Going even further, though, when a notable national Republican strategy has been specifically to try to hurt blue states and then blame the damage that they're causing on the Democrats, so that the less politically aware will get angry at the Democrats and vote Republican, it's pretty safe to say that there's something very, very seriously wrong with the current Republican party.
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Old 15th January 2022, 05:36 AM   #3145
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Governor Kristi Noem tweeted

@govkristinoem
Gas prices are skyrocketing. Gas shortages are hitting parts of America.

We knew this would happen when President Biden cancelled the Keystone XL Pipeline and reversed our America-first energy policies.
They really like to pick on Keystone. The fuel made from it runs big diesels. Almost none is used here. It does not work in trucks and is not used in power plants. If it were, it would be close to coal in what you get out of it. But coal is cheaper and requires no pipeline that is under pressure to get the stuff flowing. I like coal going through my state, because if the train falls over, you just scoop it back.
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Old Today, 05:21 AM   #3146
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Quote:
“But definitely in the second half of this first year, the almost-mantras of the Republican party have gained hold: he’s too old, he’s a socialist, and then this whole ‘Let’s go, Brandon’ thing. Plus the fact that they’ve been able to successfully block the bigger initiatives so not only a socialist, but a socialist who can’t succeed, is the message.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...zations-attack

Not forgetting:
-vaccine
-he caused inflation (presidents can do little here)
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Old Today, 07:47 AM   #3147
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Originally Posted by Ken Klippenstein, The Intercept
Trump bullied members of his party who opposed his agenda so ruthlessly that many didn’t run for re-election. Has Biden said a single negative thing about Sinema or Manchin?
https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/...CztZrnlJApAAAA

The bully pulpit is one of the few things Biden has that the obstructionist Congress or SCOTUS can't take away from him. Seeing as he has 0% chance of passing any legislation and any creative executive orders will be shot down in the courts, why not take it for a spin?
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Old Today, 07:49 AM   #3148
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Thank you for this endorsement of being nice to Sinema and Machin.
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Old Today, 08:04 AM   #3149
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So you're saying that Dems need to write bills that are basically Republican policies.

They tried that with the ACA it didn't help.
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Old Today, 08:41 AM   #3150
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
any creative executive orders will be shot down in the courts
I don't believe the ones I have in mind would be. Maybe the ones I have in mind aren't in the "creative" category you have in mind. And in some cases, by the time the ruling was given, the thing would already have been done anyway. But either way, for the rest, he doesn't know until he tries, and he doesn't get any electoral benefit unless he tries. The only real reason he's doing nothing is because he doesn't want to do anything. (Remember when his supporters claimed that that was a point in his favor?)
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Old Today, 08:45 AM   #3151
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I don't believe the ones I have in mind would be. Maybe the ones I have in mind aren't in the "creative" category you have in mind. And in some cases, by the time the ruling was given, the thing would already have been done anyway. But either way, for the rest, he doesn't know until he tries, and he doesn't get any electoral benefit unless he tries. The only real reason he's doing nothing is because he doesn't want to do anything. (Remember when his supporters claimed that that was a point in his favor?)
I don't really see any harm in trying. All this is hypothetical because there hasn't been much to indicate that Biden is even open to this type of active role. Seems to me we're on auto-pilot until he gets absolutely washed in the 2024 election.
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Old Today, 10:39 AM   #3152
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**** it. Go full on Andrew Jackson (well I mean not the genocide and dueling part...).

When the courts shoot it down just go "The Courts have made their decision. Now let's see them enforce it."

"Good for the goose" has to start applying the Right's "I can do anything I want until someone stop's me" method.
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Old Today, 11:04 AM   #3153
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* Prove me wrong then.

You and any random Trumper both think the system is too broken for your side to win so the only answer is tearing it down so your side can take control after the fact. You both are unconcerned bordering on gleeful at the idea of collateral damage. You both have that same "I know what I'm saying is going to get a negative response" chips on your shoulders.

The only difference is the nouns.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
**** it. Go full on Andrew Jackson (well I mean not the genocide and dueling part...).

When the courts shoot it down just go "The Courts have made their decision. Now let's see them enforce it."

"Good for the goose" has to start applying the Right's "I can do anything I want until someone stop's me" method.
Welcome to the radical progressive insurgency.
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Old Today, 11:38 AM   #3154
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
**** it. Go full on Andrew Jackson (well I mean not the genocide and dueling part...).

When the courts shoot it down just go "The Courts have made their decision. Now let's see them enforce it."

"Good for the goose" has to start applying the Right's "I can do anything I want until someone stop's me" method.
I dunno, sounds a bit too Trumpy for me /s
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Old Today, 12:32 PM   #3155
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I gather that there have been eras of American history in which Supreme Court rulings have been considered just "advisory" rather than absolutely The Law, but...

1. We're not in such an era right now, so suddenly switching to that mode now would look... umm... bad.
2. The legalistic justification for it seems flimsy. It's been pointed out that the Constitution describes the Supreme Court's job with the phrase "advize and consent", which does not imply the ability to stop the other branches from doing stuff, but, if sometimes stopping the other branches from doing stuff weren't part of the job, then there wouldn't have been much of a point in Constitutionally defining a supreme court in the first place, so just its existence points toward that being what it's about.

So although just ignoring their daffier or more hostile-to-the-peasants rulings would get us better results in those individual cases where we did that, it would be contributing to the rot & collapse of the overall system.
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Old Today, 03:33 PM   #3156
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They tried that with the ACA it didn't help.
A perfect storm for the Republicans. They got to screw up the bill royally and then rant about how screwed up it was. It seems few people remember how much of the ACA was a compromise based on Republican blackmail. Ultimately it was probably a dumb move, but as so often, one side was acting in good faith and the other not. The Republicans got to vote against a bill and to criticize it later for the flaws they had built into it.

The problem in dealing with those who have no honor is that one cannot win against them without becoming one of them, and the proposal here seems much the same.
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