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Split Thread Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion

Michel H said:
Breaking News: the world's strongest girl responds to Arnold

I quote RT.com:


Edited by sarge: 
edited for rule 4 violation


There is a wikipedia page about Maryana Naumova: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryana_Naumova.

This young lady seems smart, but I wonder if she could voice publicly disagreement with Putin's "special military operation", the consequences could be serious for her. Also, she is perhaps not fully aware of the large-scale attacks on civilian targets.
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It seems that I forgot to post the link yesterday for this article about Maryana Naumova's response to Schwarzenegger: https://www.rt.com/sport/552390-arnold-schwarzenegger-russia-ukraine-maryana-naumova/.

"Obviously, you didn't work on the letters I gave you, even though you promised," Naumova told the former Governor of California, adding that the Alley of Angels memorial in Donetsk is a memorial to children "killed by bullets and bombs of the Ukrainian army."
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(just one paragraph)

If posters in this thread want to become real experts on the issue of Ukraine's responsability, it is better to read from various sources to have a complete picture.
 
Marras said:
You still ignore that Putin is demanding to install his own puppet government to Ukraine and to disband Ukraine's army.
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Normally, this is not something that I would find acceptable.

Perhaps Zelensky should prove that he is a good leader by making (quickly enough) the necessary territorial concessions:
Moscow further said it wanted the “demilitarization” and “denazification” of Ukraine, as well as for Kiev to recognize Crimea as a part of Russia, and the republics in Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states.
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(https://www.rt.com/russia/552471-kremlin-responds-zelensky-referendum/)

If Kiev recognizes Crimea as a part of Russia, and the Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent (together with a promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years), then perhaps it will become possible to convince Moscow to stop its offensive, and to protect the current democratic government of Ukraine and its military.

There is also another aspect: once Ukraine has made the necessary concessions (that it probably should have made a long time ago), it will become easier to argue for a Western military intervention to protect Ukraine (as long as its goal is not to put the Crimeans in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they don't like, and where they would have to speak Ukrainian).
 
Michel H said:
Normally, this is not something that I would find acceptable.

Perhaps Zelensky should prove that he is a good leader by making (quickly enough) the necessary territorial concessions:

(https://www.rt.com/russia/552471-kremlin-responds-zelensky-referendum/)

If Kiev recognizes Crimea as a part of Russia, and the Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent (together with a promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years), then perhaps it will become possible to convince Moscow to stop its offensive, and to protect the current democratic government of Ukraine and its military.

There is also another aspect: once Ukraine has made the necessary concessions (that it probably should have made a long time ago), it will become easier to argue for a Western military intervention to protect Ukraine (as long as its goal is not to put the Crimeans in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they don't like, and where they would have to speak Ukrainian).
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Might makes right?
How about NATO takes St. Petersburg?
Hope Putin shows leadership by willingly handing over the city.
 
Hercules56 said:
Ukraine has made a lot of very stupid and bigoted mistakes regarding Crimea, Donbass and Russians in Ukraine. However none of this in any way justifies the disgusting war Russia is committing against the people of Ukraine. Russia has become a war criminal state. Putin must be tried at The Hague.
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True. If they'd ethnically cleaned the Russian population much of the problems could have been avoided.
 
jimbob said:
You don't become an expert by taking liars at their word.
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"If 99 randomly picked licensed electricians say 'For the love of God you wired that wrong, it will kill you until you are dead from it if you flip that switch, also it will kill you slowly and it will hurt the entire time. I'm begging don't flip that switch' and one anonymous Youtube video from a known liar and idiots with an openly admitted anti-electrician bias says the circuit is fine, that means there is 'honest debate' to be had" kind of thinking is a core of the post-fact world though.

The ProudlyWrong are masters at finding one completely insane, outside of the bell curve contrarian voice and parading it around like it means something.
 
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What if the Kamchatka Peninsula decided to declare itself part of Alaska? Does this mean the US is justified in sending in a "peace keeping" force?

And what happens if other eastern Russian areas want to declare independence from Moscow, and pledge allegiance to the United States?
 
Axxman300 said:
What if the Kamchatka Peninsula decided to declare itself part of Alaska? Does this mean the US is justified in sending in a "peace keeping" force?

And what happens if other eastern Russian areas want to declare independence from Moscow, and pledge allegiance to the United States?
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Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it.
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A war, and the powers of the day got involved on one side or the other, to one degree or another.

*If* parts of eastern Russia tried to secede, the US *might* opt for some limited involvement, without getting too entangled, and trying to avoid any serious rift with the government in Moscow. Taking the US civil war as a model.
 
Why did Ukraine discriminate against Russians?

Its come to my attention that in the years after the Euromaiden Revolution, Ukraine passed various laws discriminating against their large Russian minority.

They passed laws banning the use of Russian language in govt. affairs. They required all Russian publications also have pages translating all the Russian into Ukrainian. Russian businesses had to also use Russia. Several much lesser used language in Ukraine such as Yiddish were exempt from these regulations.

Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.
 
Hey ,Hercules you are either peddling PUtin's propaganda or trying to be some kind of gadfly. Eithe way, this thread is a huge fail for you.
 
Darat said:
Look at her, showing all that ankle, she deserved it!
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I didn't say that, and you should not simply disregard such blatant discrimination against minority populations.

And no, I do not believe for a second that this in any way justifies Russia's genocide against Ukraine.
 
Hercules56 said:
And no, I do not believe for a second that this in any way justifies Russia's genocide against Ukraine.
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You say that, but you seem to be cycling between Ukraine unnecessarily antagonizing Russia, and Ukraine needing to just agree to whatever suicidal peace demands Russia is making.

"I'm not saying the rape is justified, but she did dress like a slut, and now that it's started she really should stop resisting."
 
dudalb said:
Hey ,Hercules you are either peddling PUtin's propaganda or trying to be some kind of gadfly. Eithe way, this thread is a huge fail for you.
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I'm sorry, are you accusing Human Rights Watch of peddling pro-Putin propaganda???

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-language-idUSKCN1S111N

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-truth-behind-ukraine-s-language-policy/
 
theprestige said:
You say that, but you seem to be cycling between Ukraine unnecessarily antagonizing Russia, and Ukraine needing to just agree to whatever suicidal peace demands Russia is making.

"I'm not saying the rape is justified, but she did dress like a slut, and now that it's started she really should stop resisting."
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Now you're clearly mischaracterizing my comments.

When it became clear that Russia was demanding Ukraine to demilitarize I admitted that Ukraine had no choice but to fight on. No nation can be invaded and then be expected to become a defenseless victim in exchange for peace.
 
Just because I deeply sympathize with Ukraine and their people, as they are being brutally attacked by Russia for no good reason, doesn't mean I'm blind to misdeeds by Ukraine and I wont speak out on them so as to maintain a front of support. I don't work that way.
 
Hercules56 said:
Its come to my attention that in the years after the Euromaiden Revolution, Ukraine passed various laws discriminating against their large Russian minority.

They passed laws banning the use of Russian language in govt. affairs. They required all Russian publications also have pages translating all the Russian into Ukrainian. Russian businesses had to also use Russia. Several much lesser used language in Ukraine such as Yiddish were exempt from these regulations.

Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.
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It's complicated.

Yes, in general I agree it was stupid and counterproductive for Ukraine to stoop to low levels like Russia does.

There was push-back on those decisions, the UA supreme court had cases before it, and a change in the UA constitution was already allowing for Regions to elevate regional languages (e.g. Russian) to "official".

Then 2014 came, and Putin made Ukrainian national identity a thing forever and started this war.
So we will never know how a democratic and unmolested Ukraine would have handled the issue eventually.

My guess is that ensuring full rights for minorities, including and especially language rights, would have been put on the agenda by the EU, and UA would have complied happily.
 
Oystein said:
It's complicated.

Yes, in general I agree it was stupid and counterproductive for Ukraine to stoop to low levels like Russia does.

There was push-back on those decisions, the UA supreme court had cases before it, and a change in the UA constitution was already allowing for Regions to elevate regional languages (e.g. Russian) to "official".

Then 2014 came, and Putin made Ukrainian national identity a thing forever and started this war.
So we will never know how a democratic and unmolested Ukraine would have handled the issue eventually.

My guess is that ensuring full rights for minorities, including and especially language rights, would have been put on the agenda by the EU, and UA would have complied happily.
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Zelenkyy should announce that this law will be revoked immediately. Don't let Putin use it as an excuse to call the Ukrainians "Nazis".
 
Hercules56 said:
I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.
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This, doesn't jive with this:

Hercules56 said:
Just because I deeply sympathize with Ukraine and their people, as they are being brutally attacked by Russia for no good reason, doesn't mean I'm blind to misdeeds by Ukraine and I wont speak out on them so as to maintain a front of support. I don't work that way.
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If you're saying that their actions helped lead to the current situation, then you can't also say that Russia was doing it for "no good reason". You've identified, what you think, is a reason for their invasion. Are we quibbling about the word "good"?
 
If Kiev recognizes Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent, how long before Putin decides they are really part of Russia?
 
theprestige said:
Why? Nobody who matters buys this excuse.
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Well the people who are doing the bombing and shelling are Russians. Seems like it might matter what they believe. Do they buy it?

When Putin says "denazify" he doesn't mean those evil guys who murder Jews. He means those evil guys who attack Russians. Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it.
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The CSA wanted to be their own country, not rejoin England.

A closer example would be Hawaii deciding it wants to be independent from the US, then being granted it's sovereignty, and then 16 years later being invaded by the US to retake the islands because God told us to.

Plus, the CSA were A-holes, they had it coming.
 
Axxman300 said:
The CSA wanted to be their own country, not rejoin England.

A closer example would be Hawaii deciding it wants to be independent from the US, then being granted it's sovereignty, and then 16 years later being invaded by the US to retake the islands because God told us to.

Plus, the CSA were A-holes, they had it coming.
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An even closer example would be a breakup of the United States, with the CSA re-forming as an independent sovereign nation, and then 16 years later being invaded by the North because "OMG they're raciss!" And even that is, quite frankly, pants on head retarded.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Well the people who are doing the bombing and shelling are Russians. Seems like it might matter what they believe. Do they buy it?

When Putin says "denazify" he doesn't mean those evil guys who murder Jews. He means those evil guys who attack Russians. Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda.
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It's pretty obvious that the Russian ground forces lack the effectiveness to really matter, in terms of these small propaganda gains we're talking about. If it were effective, Putin would be telling them it's happening already, whether it's really happening or not.
 
Hercules56 said:
Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.
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If Russians had nothing, no matter how trivial, to complain about they would just make **** up like always.

The reality of the situation is that these Ukrainian laws and regulations are only an effect of the actual reason Russia seeks to take control of Ukraine: they won't recognize Russian authority and domination of them, such as by the fact that they emphasize their own language and customs above Russian ones.

What drives imperialist's like Putin mad with rage is that this is basically the opposite of what the Russians have been doing for hundreds of years (to use Putin's words "since Catherine The Great"). Historically they have repressed and undermined the Ukrainian (as well as most other minorities) language, culture and nationhood to the point that they refuse to acknowledge their existence. Russification was de facto imperial/all-union state policy only until the various nationalities achieved independence.

Hence why Putin's barley contained anger against Ukraine when he declared war. No longer should he tolerate them humiliating great and glorious Russia.
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda.
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Like the Ukrainian genocide against Russians! Russians love to bring that up when defending the "special military operation". It almost brings the holocaust to shame in its scale and intensity.
 
I think Zelenskyy is the better man and should act like it. There's no need for anti-Russian laws in Ukraine.
 
Hercules56 said:
I think Zelenskyy is the better man and should act like it. There's no need for anti-Russian laws in Ukraine.
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It is not really an 'anti-Russian' law. Ukraine is a country in its own right and is entitled to use its own language in official documents.
 
JoeMorgue said:
That's a lie. That is an intentional falsehood said with motive. That is a wrong statement said while knowing it is a wrong statement. That is a dishonest statement made knowingly.
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Or if the individual in question is not a Putin stooge, he is giving a damn good impression of one.
 
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