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Old 24th May 2022, 09:14 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Wasn't there a British warship that sunk because the gunwales were too low and it took on water when listing into turns?
The Mary Rose was rebuilt and sunk, possibly in situations like that in 1545.
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Old 24th May 2022, 09:20 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The Mary Rose was rebuilt and sunk, possibly in situations like that in 1545.
That's probably the one I'm thinking of, name rings a bell.
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Old 24th May 2022, 09:50 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"And in local news. Nightvale Elementary School has announced that history class is being replaced with Alternative History Class. Subjects next year will include What if Germany Won WWII, What if the South Won the Civil War, and the AP Level What If the South Won WWII."
I feel like there's a book (or series of books) that posit Germany winning WWII because the South won the Civil War (the CSA supports Germany, and a much weaker USA is less useful to the Allies).

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again not exactly the intent of the thread but close...

I have a hard time really "scaling" history properly. Like don't get me wrong I know on an intellectual level that this happened before this and that this happened WAAAY before that and all that, I'm not ignorant of the raw facts but on base, raw, emotional "feel" I'm real bad about just sort of halfway lumping everything together into vague "recent past", "decent past" and "real distant past."

I often am surprised by things that happened around the same time, but in different parts of the world. Like, juxtaposing Victorian England with what was going on in other parts of the world (Japan, the American West, etc.) at that time is often surprising to me.
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Old 24th May 2022, 10:03 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
I often am surprised by things that happened around the same time, but in different parts of the world. Like, juxtaposing Victorian England with what was going on in other parts of the world (Japan, the American West, etc.) at that time is often surprising to me.
There's a meme floating around that charts out the overlaps of the timeframes such things existed and points out (something to the effect of, don't remember the exact wording) that a movie where a cowboy, a Samurai, and a pirate joining forces to stop a Victorian Art Thief would be 100% plausible.

My other favorite type of this is that Abe Lincoln could have sent a fax but not have used a modern doorknob.
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Old 24th May 2022, 03:41 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Actually there were indeed Napoleonic WAr Nerds in the 19th century utterly obsessed with the Napoleonic Wars. Among this group were a large number of Napoleon Fanboys and Fangirls who worshipped the most holy and divine Napoleon and who viewed him has a Messiah, the annointed one, God's chosen son who came to Earth to save us but was betrayed by the Evil British and their Gold and other Evil Sons of Satan. And he was crucified on St. Helena and died for our sins. For we were not worthy of him.

Sadly this cult continues to the present day among some.
To be fair, there is difference between being a nerd on Napoleonic warfare and being a member of the Napoleon cult.
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Old 24th May 2022, 03:41 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I wonder if there were Napoleonic War nerds for the entire nineteenth century the way we have WWII nerds today. "How dare you, sir, I have on parchment before me the figures from the comte du Frou-frou's supply acquisitions for the spring of 1806 and your conclusions are not supported, sir! Good day!"
Sounds more like SOP for Military Historians when dealing with ANY era to me.
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Old 24th May 2022, 03:48 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You are free to go and check the details for yourself. Start with 53% of Soviet expended ordnance being Lend Lease, and much domestic production containing US supplied fillers and propellants or precursors.
Then move on to the half-million trucks that kept the Red Army moving. And the food, fuel, metals and chemicals.
FOr some reason some people just do not want to admit how much Lend Lease helped the Russians. Most of the trucks used to make the Russian Army mobile were of American make.
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Old 24th May 2022, 08:19 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
I often am surprised by things that happened around the same time, but in different parts of the world. Like, juxtaposing Victorian England with what was going on in other parts of the world (Japan, the American West, etc.) at that time is often surprising to me.
One thing that sometimes comes up in historical weapons discussions is something to the effect of "Medieval Knight vs Samurai - who would win?" And every time, they're talking about a C14th knight and a C16th samurai.
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Old 24th May 2022, 09:21 PM   #249
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I was surprised when I realized that Shakespeare would have known about the New World... and even Chaucer wouldn't have missed it by much, so the earliest "English" speakers to set foot on my continent would have been speaking Middle English.

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Old 24th May 2022, 09:44 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
One thing that sometimes comes up in historical weapons discussions is something to the effect of "Medieval Knight vs Samurai - who would win?" And every time, they're talking about a C14th knight and a C16th samurai.
You sure? I was always more of the impression that most people think full plate when they think knight, rather than the 14th century kind.
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Old 24th May 2022, 10:54 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
You sure? I was always more of the impression that most people think full plate when they think knight, rather than the 14th century kind.
Now that I think about it, yeah, I think you're right. Put both a hundred and fifty years or so later and that's basically what I'm trying to say - that most peoples' default image of a samurai does not date from the same period as most peoples' default image of a knight.
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Old 24th May 2022, 10:58 PM   #252
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I don't see a problem with that in a "what if". The first two words already tell you the speaker understands that it didn't and wouldn't happen. Whether that's because of only distance, only time, or both is trivial.
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Old 24th May 2022, 11:11 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I don't see a problem with that in a "what if". The first two words already tell you the speaker understands that it didn't and wouldn't happen. Whether that's because of only distance, only time, or both is trivial.
Yeah maybe. And I'm all for hypotheticals. My point is that the common default images that people hold in their minds are rarely consistent with each other.
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Old 24th May 2022, 11:52 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Did not learn the lesson of King Canute and the tides then?
The background for that is that Wasa was being built to combat the Danish fleet. It was planned to have one gun deck, but then came reports that the Danish were building a war ship with two gun decks, which would put Wasa to disadvantage.

Because of that Gustaphus Adolphus ordered the shipwright to add the second gun deck. He was still worried about the firepower so he later ordered to add more guns and to make them heavier.

Then the original shipwright died and his successor had to take over without having any actual plans for the ship available.

As a final mistake, stability tests were conducted on the ship and it was found out that it was dangerously unstable, but the test results were ignored (and the shipwright claimed that he was not even told about them).
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:14 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Now that I think about it, yeah, I think you're right. Put both a hundred and fifty years or so later and that's basically what I'm trying to say - that most peoples' default image of a samurai does not date from the same period as most peoples' default image of a knight.
Eh, 150 extra years for the samurai is way too much, if we start from the 16'th century, since right from the beginning of the 17'th century we get the plain clothes samurai with the katana (legally mandated) as the main weapon. And it would stay that way until the Meiji restoration.

But then I'm not sure if that's really everyone's default image of the samurai. I would think enough people will have seen The Last Samurai to think "armour" when they think samurai. And that armour is about 16'th century or so, give or take. (Also used mostly ceremonially into the Edo period.) Give the samurai wearing that armour a nodachi and it's about right for the 16'th century, making it fairly contemporary with some full plate knights.

And then some people deviate in the other direction, thinking more "o-yoroi" when they think "samurai", which is making it more like 12'th to 15'th century. I guess 15'th century is probably actually the default for that, since it tends to feature all the pieces of the final set.

So, really, I'd say it's all over the place
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Old 25th May 2022, 06:25 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Eh, 150 extra years for the samurai is way too much, if we start from the 16'th century, since right from the beginning of the 17'th century we get the plain clothes samurai with the katana (legally mandated) as the main weapon. And it would stay that way until the Meiji restoration.

But then I'm not sure if that's really everyone's default image of the samurai. I would think enough people will have seen The Last Samurai to think "armour" when they think samurai. And that armour is about 16'th century or so, give or take. (Also used mostly ceremonially into the Edo period.) Give the samurai wearing that armour a nodachi and it's about right for the 16'th century, making it fairly contemporary with some full plate knights.

And then some people deviate in the other direction, thinking more "o-yoroi" when they think "samurai", which is making it more like 12'th to 15'th century. I guess 15'th century is probably actually the default for that, since it tends to feature all the pieces of the final set.

So, really, I'd say it's all over the place
I admit, I am failing to take into account the effect of anime, of which I am profoundly ignorant.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:03 PM   #257
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Apparently there was a window of time in which a samurai could have sent a fax to Abraham Lincoln.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:14 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apparently there was a window of time in which a samurai could have sent a fax to Abraham Lincoln.
I have heard that, yes.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:43 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I admit, I am failing to take into account the effect of anime, of which I am profoundly ignorant.
I wasn't talking about anime, though. But for example the Samurai armour in City Of Heroes is also yay around 15-16th century. You can by the fact that the earlier o-yoroi had only 4 larger skirt segments, and it was changed when they started going on foot, because the old skirt was limiting mobility. So at least the artist was thinking about a 15-16'th century samurai.

TBH the biggest anachronism I find in popular (mis)conception is talking about the katana as the war weapon of the samurai. It was not. The no-dachi (literally "field sword") was the one used in war, or a little earlier bladed polearms like the naginata or nagamaki, as long as they went bladed weapon in war. The katana (or its precursor) was a self-defense weapon, since traditionally they carried the nodachi on the back and you can't draw one of those from the back. So they needed a shorter one on the hip in case they got ambushed or attacked in some alley. The katana only became THE primary weapon of the samurai after the sengoku jidai, when a hard upper limit on blades was legally mandated. And at that point it was an officer's sword or civilian self-defense sword mainly, as wars were fought with gunpowder and pikes by then.

The lesser anachronism (of which I'm occasionally guilty myself) is talking about samurai before the Sengoku Jidai (their late medieval civil war.) Before that, if you called your retainer a "samurai", it would be a bit insulting, since it pretty much meant "servant". (Kinda like the "knecht" in "landesknecht".)
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:44 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apparently there was a window of time in which a samurai could have sent a fax to Abraham Lincoln.
Quite literally, yes, since the Samurai were only finally disbanded after the Satsuma Rebellion in 1877.

You know, the one horribly misrepresented in The Last Samurai

But at least Sabaton wrote a kick-ass song about it, so it evens out
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:51 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
TBH the biggest anachronism I find in popular (mis)conception is talking about the katana as the war weapon of the samurai. It was not. The no-dachi (literally "field sword") was the one used in war, or a little earlier bladed polearms like the naginata or nagamaki, as long as they went bladed weapon in war. The katana (or its precursor) was a self-defense weapon, since traditionally they carried the nodachi on the back and you can't draw one of those from the back. So they needed a shorter one on the hip in case they got ambushed or attacked in some alley. The katana only became THE primary weapon of the samurai after the sengoku jidai, when a hard upper limit on blades was legally mandated. And at that point it was an officer's sword or civilian self-defense sword mainly, as wars were fought with gunpowder.
I've read that the primary war weapons of the samurai were the yari and the bow. Definitely not the katana, which was at most a sidearm.
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Old 26th May 2022, 04:12 AM   #262
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Well, depends on the period, really. And that feeds into the second anachronism I was talking about. Strictly speaking, if we're talking about Samurai, then none of that is true. Because they only start being called Samurai by the point in the Sengoku Jidai when all of that changes.

But I'm going to act like we're talking generally about Japanese warriors, which really is what most people mean by "samurai".

The primary weapon was the bow indeed, all the way to, well, some way into the sengoku jidai when gunpowder makes the weak Japanese bows thoroughly obsolete. I mean, really, we have contemporary accounts of both the bow construction across time, and more importantly, that by then they could only penetrate armour at pretty much point-blank range. They skipped the trying for heavier bows or crossbows like in Europe, and pretty much went from bow to gun in one go.

But just like european cavalrymen, when you're on a horse, AND have retainers, AND rules of honourable combat (until the sengoku jidai, "war" in Japan was more akin to a deadlier version of an European tournament) you can have more weapons, to fit the situation at hand. A long blade like the nodachi or a polearm like the naginata/nagamaki was actually pretty useful for the obvious reasons when you're on horseback. Maybe not primary weapon, but the main blade, shall we say, when you have to use one.

Why do I mention retainers too? Yeah, that's why you could carry your main blade on your back. You can't draw a nodachi from the back. So you'd first unsling it, then draw it, and often you'd have a retainer hold your scabbard during that and while you're busy using it. Which is also a hint that it wasn't the primary weapon.

The uchigatana (which would later become the katana) was at first a low status weapon for those retainers. Then the warrior caste starts to realize that if some less honourable lowlife ambushes you in some alley, they're not gonna wait for you to do all that to get your nodachi out. So they start carrying an uchigatana too across the back, at hip level. Which IMHO kinda also dictates the length, since that's not a very good position to draw it either.

Then, as I was saying, comes the end of the sengoku jidai and the great disarming of the warlords. Sword-hunt included. And here come the laws as to what lengths are allowed, even what hand-guard is allowed, etc. (Seriously, you could get to honourably disembowel yourself for having a square hand-guard. Or showing up on ceremonial duty with one more ornate than just a cutout of your clan's crest.) The samurai get to at most carry a katana in public or while on ceremonial duty, or wakizashi sized when a guest somewhere.

Including laws about what length of a blade could an ashigaru carry (they're only allowed wakizashi sized blades), what length and construction of a blade could a civilian carry for self defense (which is nowadays known in the west as a ninjato), and what can a woman carry for self-defense. Right, the women now get the naginata. Because apparently "little girl with big <bleeping> weapon" was a trope even before anime


The yari... well, that only becomes a main weapon during the sengoku jidai, and even then mostly NOT for samurai. It was regarded as an inferior weapon and until mid-15'th century or so a samurai would rather use a naginata (or nagamaki, same thing) if he had to go polearm.

But the war was increasingly less an honourable tournament for the warrior caste, and more of an issue of conscripting and arming masses of ashigaru (conscripted peasants). These don't get extensive training, and usually not very good weapons either. Well, you couldn't skimp much on an arquebus, but otherwise, these get even rusty weapons from last year's battlefield, or the cheapest thing the local smith can make. And did I mention not much training? So they soon figure out that being really good with a naginata takes a lot of training. Giving a peasant a straight spear and telling him to keep the pointy end towards the enemy is much more expedient and cheaper. So they start using the yari in a pike block, basically.

It's still a low status weapon for most samurai, though. But there are exceptions like the kikuchi yari, which has a shorter pole (more short spear than pike) and a very sharp single-edged tanto blade as a tip. You could still do fancy moves with it, and it wasn't the kind of weapon you'd give most ashigaru, so we still see SOME high ranking samurai officers using these.
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Old 26th May 2022, 12:39 PM   #263
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That said, you know, it now occurs to me that "knight" also continued past the age of plate armour. And if we're talking the age when a samurai could send a fax, then really, they're very much equivalent to British knights in this era. Well, except in Japan they're hereditary now. But otherwise they're still some cultured gentlemen who occasionally duel each other, but otherwise they're officers, government bureaucrats, etc. (Seriously, watch "13 Assassins". The samurai introduce themselves to each other as some imperial building inspector and whatnot.)

So now that's a "knight vs samurai" scenario which is not what most people have in mind: two gentlemen in plain clothes, one with a smallsword and one with a katana. ROUND ONE! FIGHT!
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Old 26th May 2022, 07:42 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
So now that's a "knight vs samurai" scenario which is not what most people have in mind: two gentlemen in plain clothes, one with a smallsword and one with a katana. ROUND ONE! FIGHT!
I have actually done this fight, quite a few times. Me with a rapier (rather than a smallsword) and knowing the Spanish and Italian styles quite well, and my opponent with a katana and a background in kenjutsu. It's an interesting fight. The Spaniard needs to keep the Japanese at a distance, since the rapier has more reach than the katana, but if the Japanese can get past that point, the Spaniard is dead. If real weapons were involved, the outcome would likely be that the Japanese receives multiple possibly-survivable stab wounds and the Spaniard ends up in multiple pieces.
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Old 26th May 2022, 10:58 PM   #265
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Well, I was talking about the time when they could send a fax and England. In the very early 18'th century the rapier was all but replaced by the smallsword. But I suppose if we're talking more generally Edo period, since the equipment of a samurai remained pretty much unchanged anyway, and yeah, if we go with Spain instead, there is about a century overlap where the fight you describe could actually take place. In fact, make it a Netherlands captain and they could even be in the same place for it to happen.

Well, thanks for the information in any case.
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Old 27th May 2022, 07:52 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've read that the primary war weapons of the samurai were the yari and the bow. Definitely not the katana, which was at most a sidearm.
I have read that for much of their history they were more often mounted archers than swordsman.
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Old 27th May 2022, 09:54 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I have read that for much of their history they were more often mounted archers than swordsman.
Logic suggests they could have improved efficiency by cutting out the middleman and training the horses to shoot with bows.
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Old 27th May 2022, 09:57 AM   #268
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I've always wondered if the whole "The Centaur is based upon the Greeks encountering mounted bowmen" thing was real or B.S.

A lot of those "Myth X is based on Thing Y" stories are a little too after the fact perfect and polished for me.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:05 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've always wondered if the whole "The Centaur is based upon the Greeks encountering mounted bowmen" thing was real or B.S.

A lot of those "Myth X is based on Thing Y" stories are a little too after the fact perfect and polished for me.
On a similar note, I'm pretty sure that most of the "evolutionary" rationales for extant genotypes and phenotypes are nothing more than Just So Stories. "Evolution is real, so there must be some evolutionary explanation for this, here's a plausible explanation, we're just going to assume it's the true explanation".

Pseudo (very recent) history I once sorta believed: If there was one thing the modern, paramilitarized American police department was good for, it was going full HAM on active shooters, especially in Texas.

I guess the truth is that only major, well-funded police departments like the LAPD have the proper SWAT procedures and trained officers in place for that kind of work. Even in Texas.
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:48 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've always wondered if the whole "The Centaur is based upon the Greeks encountering mounted bowmen" thing was real or B.S.

A lot of those "Myth X is based on Thing Y" stories are a little too after the fact perfect and polished for me.
I figure its an interesting and compelling idea but will never be more than a just so story. I recently heard a podcast suggesting that griffins are based on ceratops fossile. Sorta birdlike beak on a sorta lion like skeleton with some ancient writers placing their origins in the gobi dessert where there are a lot of easily found fossils. Interesting but will never be more than a story.
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Old 27th May 2022, 11:03 AM   #271
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I'm trying to image a prehistoric civilization somehow acquiring enough intact dinosaurs skulls to make a mythology narrative out of.
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Old 27th May 2022, 11:09 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm trying to image a prehistoric civilization somehow acquiring enough intact dinosaurs skulls to make a mythology narrative out of.
How many do you need?

See also the idea that the Cyclops was based on pygmy elephant skulls
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Old 27th May 2022, 01:08 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How many do you need?

See also the idea that the Cyclops was based on pygmy elephant skulls
And the dog head people!
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Old 28th May 2022, 12:38 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I figure its an interesting and compelling idea but will never be more than a just so story. I recently heard a podcast suggesting that griffins are based on ceratops fossile. Sorta birdlike beak on a sorta lion like skeleton with some ancient writers placing their origins in the gobi dessert where there are a lot of easily found fossils. Interesting but will never be more than a story.
Here's a blog article that quite strongly argues against protoceratops being the source for griffins. The bullet point summary from the conclusions is:

Quote:
* Near Eastern griffin culture seems to occur thousands of years before we have evidence for it in central Asia, suggesting Protoceratops anatomy could not be referenced in any way in the conception of the original griffin.

* Griffin anatomies, in all their variants, are entirely and best explained as chimeras of extant animals. There is no need to invoke any exotic fossil anatomies in their design.

* Griffin iconography, and perhaps written legends, are sufficiently varied to suggest a complex set of origins and legends for these creatures.

* Ancient Greek writings seem to lack compelling references to Protoceratops, and the aspects of appearance and behaviour they discuss clearly indicate they were not informed by fossilised animals. Several details of these accounts suggest they must be talking about imaginary creatures.

* Protoceratops fossils are found hundreds of kilometres from ancient Scythian gold mines, undermining the suggestion they might be the source of griffin gold guarding lore. There is no indication - historic or geological - that fossils of this dinosaur species have ever been associated with gold.
And as a specific comment to the podcast, no ancient writer says that griffins came from the Gobi desert specifically -- the Greeks speak of "a desert North East of Greece".
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Old 28th May 2022, 07:06 AM   #275
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I would also add that it's just one of many such kit-bash chimaeras. Including the actual Chimaera that gave its name to the whole class, which was a lion with a goat's neck and head protruding from the middle of its back (so the heads weren't even side by side in some plausible configuration) and a tail that might or might not end in a serpent's head.

But for the gryphon for example, we also have the Hippocampus, which has the front half of a horse with wings and the back half of a fish. Or the Hippalectryon, literally "horse cock"... err... I mean, "horse rooster", which is the same but with the back half of, well, you know, the giant bird that Peter Griffin gets into fighst with

And then there are other winged combination, such as the winged unicorn on Assyrian seals. Or winged bull from the same area.

Or non-winged variants, such as the front half of a goat, and the back end of a fish, which is really what the original idea of a Capricorn looked like in Mesopotamia. As in, yes, THAT was the animal for that zodiac sign.

Or the ichthyocentaurus, which was basically the usual man-horse hybrid, but with a fish's back half continuing the butt instead of a tail. Or the Ophiotaurus, which was the front half of a bull and it continued as the body of a giant snake from there. (How would its locomotion even work then, is anyone's guess.) Or, in the same vein, the sea-lion, which actually originally meant such a hybrid with the front half of a lion and the back half of a fish. Or the serpopard, which although a modern portmanteau, is amply represented in ancient art (e.g., even on the Narmer palette): a leopard with basically a giant snake instead of a neck. And I mean like 3 times the length of the rest of the body.

Or, since we're talking gryphons, how about one built the other way around: the Hieracosphinx. It had a lion's body and an eagle's head.

Etc.

You get the idea.

So, you know, what seems more likely?

A. they just kitbashed every animal with every other animal, and by sheer numbers one might coincidentally resemble something from somewhere else, or
B. just for one they totally based it on a fossil from half way across the world, and which would have needed some reconstruction they wouldn't even know how to do, and which we have no evidence anyone was even interested in until modern days

Plus, we KNOW that people can make up stuff just for literary purposes. I mean, since we're talking gryphons, how about the hippogriph, which we KNOW was invented in the 16'th century by a poet? Or more recently we have gremlins, which have become thoroughly associated with medieval fantasy and are even in D&D, but were invented as late as the early 20'th century by soldiers to explain random aircraft failures.
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Old 28th May 2022, 08:38 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Wasn't there a British warship that sunk because the gunwales were too low and it took on water when listing into turns?
Mary Rose wasn't new though. It had been rebuilt and refitted.
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Old 28th May 2022, 08:03 PM   #277
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Well, that and as I think was said before, every military ship in that age had that problem in rough enough weather. If you tilt enough or the waves get too high, you WILL take in water through the gun ports. It's just unavoidable when you need to have more guns than you could fit on your main deck and castles. Any ship has a point of no return angle, and the ship with holes cut into the side will inevitably will have a smaller angle for the point of no return than a ship without such holes.

What was the epic fail for the Vasa was not that it could happen at all, but that it could happen in barely a breeze and while taking a very gentle turn.
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Old 12th June 2022, 07:52 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, that and as I think was said before, every military ship in that age had that problem in rough enough weather. If you tilt enough or the waves get too high, you WILL take in water through the gun ports. It's just unavoidable when you need to have more guns than you could fit on your main deck and castles. Any ship has a point of no return angle, and the ship with holes cut into the side will inevitably will have a smaller angle for the point of no return than a ship without such holes.

What was the epic fail for the Vasa was not that it could happen at all, but that it could happen in barely a breeze and while taking a very gentle turn.
There were enormous differences in water intrusion through the hull itself, as well. Oakum and pitch could only do so much in terms of caulking. Sailing before the wind with a following sea was safer than close-hauled into a rough sea. Some poorly built vessels you could watch the seams come open and shut, squirting jets of water right into the bilge/well.
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Old 12th June 2022, 12:04 PM   #279
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True enough. I was only commenting on the part that got the Vasa sunk, though. But otherwise, absolutely, the age-of-sail ship construction and and its problems are a broad and fascinating topic.
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Old 15th June 2022, 04:35 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
I feel like there's a book (or series of books) that posit Germany winning WWII because the South won the Civil War (the CSA supports Germany, and a much weaker USA is less useful to the Allies).
Sounds like Harry Turtledove's Southern Victory series.
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