[Split Thread] The Uvalde Shooting and responses to it - Page 2

The Great Zaganza · 28th June 2022, 11:50 PM

Shooting the Messenger has always worked before.

arthwollipot · 29th June 2022, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

My Australian state of Victoria has a population of 6.6 million and a force of 23000. It’s not perfect but is well run and is generally respected. It still has local presence without the need of hundreds of forces in the state.

Back in the 80s their reputation wasn't all that great...

lionking · 29th June 2022, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Back in the 80s their reputation wasn't all that great...

Well I worked there then and had a seat on Force Command. But you are right. Two police assassinated in South Yarra led to a police over-reaction. There were evil crooks killed at that time, but it wasn’t right. I remember the CCP congratulating a Commissioner (sarcastically) for the fact that one of his members refrained from shooting a fleeing crim.

But I think their reputation was pretty solid with the general public. The sainted Mick Miller was CCP during the 1980s, followed by his deputy Kel Glare, both decent men. The 10 years after that were overseen by poor leaders.

jimbob · 7th July 2022, 11:22 PM

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

A Uvalde police officer had the gunman in his sights before he entered the school and, and this is the ironic thing, waiting for permission to shoot

According to a new report

Checkmite · 9th July 2022, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

A Uvalde police officer had the gunman in his sights before he entered the school and, and this is the ironic thing, waiting for permission to shoot

According to a new report

If it weren't for the specific circumstances this would almost be comical. Consider how many ultimately unarmed people have been preemptively gunned down while running away as a matter of course by officers because they hypothetically might have a gun and their hands are within four feet of their waistbands; and here's a guy with a massmurder-15 on full display running pointedly toward a school building and suddenly they have to check with the boss and make sure it's okay first.

sarge · 9th July 2022, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

If it weren't for the specific circumstances this would almost be comical. Consider how many ultimately unarmed people have been preemptively gunned down while running away as a matter of course by officers because they hypothetically might have a gun and their hands are within four feet of their waistbands; and here's a guy with a massmurder-15 on full display running pointedly toward a school building and suddenly they have to check with the boss and make sure it's okay first.

As bizarre as it must seem to the civilized world, running with an AR-15 is not against the law most places in the US. If I’m reading the law in Texas correctly, one can not legally carry a gun in a school in Texas, but the law specifically defines ‘school’ as only the buildings themselves and not the general campus area.

So, if* that is correct, a cop in Texas would be quite safe in shooting a citizen during a traffic stop if the citizen nervously reached under their seat for something, but not in shooting someone running adjacent to a school with an AR-15. Cool, huh?

*if it’s not correct, I will be fine with that.

Bob001 · 9th July 2022, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by sarge

As bizarre as it must seem to the civilized world, running with an AR-15 is not against the law most places in the US. If I’m reading the law in Texas correctly, one can not legally carry a gun in a school in Texas, but the law specifically defines ‘school’ as only the buildings themselves and not the general campus area.
....

Well, in this particular case the guy had already been reported shooting at people. That's why the police were there. So the cop could be pretty sure it wasn't, say, a teacher planning to go hunting after school. On the other hand, we do generally want cops to check with supervisors before they shoot people, as this cop did. So I dunno.

Craig4 · 9th July 2022, 04:48 PM

I don't know what Texas law is but under what was the DoJ use of force policy in the late 90s, the legality of having the weapon wouldn't play into the decision to fire. Under the "Reasonable Officer" rule, you would be justified in firing at a person running toward the school with a weapon if it appeared to a trained officer that the person intended to kill or cause serious bodily harm to to people in the school.

An officer would not be justified in firing on a person walking on the school grounds with a rifle slung over their shoulder. The officer (in my view) would be justified in firing if the person was running toward the door of the school with the weapon at port arms (weapon off the shoulder held in front, weak hand on the stock, strong hand on the pistol grip ready to fire). In both cases (as I understand it) possessing the weapon would not be against Texas law (stupid). However, in the second scenario, a trained officer would reasonably conclude that the armed person posed an imminent threat to people in the school.

William Parcher · 12th July 2022, 03:30 PM

Daily Mail reports on a video from inside the school hallway. It shows that cops did nothing for 77 minutes.

Matthew Best · 12th July 2022, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Daily Mail reports on a video from inside the school hallway. It shows that cops did nothing for 77 minutes.

https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8

This is the full 72 minute video

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wildy · 12th July 2022, 06:25 PM

The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release.

Babbylonian · 12th July 2022, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Wildy

The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release.

That dude thinks he's got a shot at reelection. Me, I don't see how any of their city leaders keep their jobs. Unions protect the cops, so the people who ostensibly control the cops need to be wiped out.

Nessie · 13th July 2022, 01:23 AM

What the police did, hanging around in the school, not tackling the shooter, is on pretty much every UK news site at the moment.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/12/uvald...tion-16989392/

arthwollipot · 13th July 2022, 01:27 AM

Australian ones too:

New 'horrifying footage' shows police milling in hallway during Uvalde massacre, waiting to confront shooter

Craig4 · 13th July 2022, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release.

CNN was reporting that there was a plan for the families who wanted to to see the footage before it got released. From what I heard, the families are feeling blindsided by the fact that it went out to the world before they saw it. I can see their point. I can also see the point of the news outlets who published the footage. In the long run, I'm glad the public can see, unfiltered how badly the police ****** this up.

To quote retired chief Charles Ramsey: "I've seen bravery and this ain't it."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html

Matthew Best · 13th July 2022, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html

For your link:

Uvalde mayor Don McLaughlin said the Statesman's actions [in releasing the video] were "one of the most chicken things I've ever seen."

Presumably that was before he had a chance to watch the video.

Craig4 · 13th July 2022, 04:43 AM

60 shots into an unarmed person in Ohio looks a whole lot different after watching a couple dozen police armed with assault rifles and ballistic shields milling about in the hallway while children get murdered. Our police appear capable of protecting us from the unarmed.

catsmate · 13th July 2022, 04:53 AM

Steve McCraw, Texas's public safety chief, has described the police response to the 24 May attack as an "abject failure" and said officers wasted vital time looking for a classroom key that was "never needed."

On-scene commander Pete Arredondo had "decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children," he said.
"The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," he testified.

https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2022/0713...hool-shooting/

ponderingturtle · 13th July 2022, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Steve McCraw, Texas's public safety chief, has described the police response to the 24 May attack as an "abject failure" and said officers wasted vital time looking for a classroom key that was "never needed."

On-scene commander Pete Arredondo had "decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children," he said.
"The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," he testified.

https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2022/0713...hool-shooting/

Hey blue lives matter, no one says children matter.

Nessie · 13th July 2022, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

60 shots into an unarmed person in Ohio looks a whole lot different after watching a couple dozen police armed with assault rifles and ballistic shields milling about in the hallway while children get murdered. Our police appear capable of protecting us from the unarmed.

The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers.

azazal · 13th July 2022, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8

This is the full 72 minute video

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So given the difference between the lack of response from Uvalde law enforcement compared to Paris law enforcement's response to the 2015 terror attacks, particularly the Bataclan theater, can Parisians refer to Texas police as BBQ eating, beer swilling surrender monkeys?

Dr.Sid · 13th July 2022, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers.

It seems perfectly rational. After Uvalde people thought all policemen are lazy scared bastards. Nobody wants to perceived that way. So in Ohio they made sure they are not. They might have overdone it a bit, sure, but I think the sentiment counts.

theprestige · 13th July 2022, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers.

International observers tend to struggle with the idea that the US is not a relatively compact and homogenous state, divided into administrative zones for ease of central management. I'm not sure justifying themselves, or even explaining themselves, to foreign observers is necessary, or even useful. We're busy enough just trying to explain ourselves to each other.

crescent · 13th July 2022, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8

This is the full 72 minute video

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The audio is edited. They had to edit out the sounds of the children screaming.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html

Quote:

Importantly, the audio of children screaming was edited out.

When the first police show up they go to the door, and back off fast. One was rubbing the side of his head and looking at his hand. Like he thought he might have been grazed and was looking to see if he was bleeding. And I can see if you get that close to getting a bullet in the head, its really, really hard not to give in to the instinct to seek safety. I can't really strongly fault that guy for backing off, even if its not what we want them to do.

But then...nothing. The surprise was over and they knew what was happening and still didn't move. They had guys with full body armor including helmets and shields - and still didn't move. For more than an hour. That's absolutely indefensible.

Very fast gunfire when the shooter first goes in - he was probably bump firing. That's apparently not hard to learn, but still suggests that he had a bit of practice. He had just purchased the guns that he used, but had probably already had some familiarity with that type of gun.

JoeMorgue · 13th July 2022, 12:55 PM

It's like what I asked in Chauvin/Floyd thread (and oddly enough never got an answer to from the cop apologists.)

In their version of the events what where they waiting on? What change in the scenario had to happen before they acted?

bobdroege7 · 13th July 2022, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by azazal

So given the difference between the lack of response from Uvalde law enforcement compared to Paris law enforcement's response to the 2015 terror attacks, particularly the Bataclan theater, can Parisians refer to Texas police as BBQ eating, beer swilling surrender monkeys?

Can you make that hand sanitizing surrender monkeys?

crescent · 13th July 2022, 02:49 PM

More on the video:

Many have noticed the one cop who checks his phone - he's one of the first to enter the building. Seen checking his phone at the 8:50 mark in the video. His phone has a "Punisher" logo thing on the screen. That all really enraged people.

https://twitter.com/moodyforelpaso/s...91847332069376

Quote:

This is the husband of teacher Eva Mireles, who contacted him on his phone from her classroom while he was on-scene to say that she’d been shot and was dying. 1/2

Quote:

I’d not planned to speak publicly until the report was released, but I couldn’t say nothing seeing this man, who’s lost everything, maligned as if he was indifferent or actively malicious. Context matters. 2/2

Quote:

To those who haven’t bothered to read even the news that’s been reported in your rush to judgment, he attempted to engage but was removed from the building and disarmed. We’ll have much to say about the police response, but no criticism of this officer.

ETA: The officer in question moves off screen after checking the phone a few times. I don't see him again after that, but in the video we don't see him attempt to engage. It at least explains checking the phone.

Craig4 · 13th July 2022, 04:42 PM

I finally watched the entire video. I am so beyond disgusted. I was a cop and I know what you sign on for when you take that job. That was cowardice pure and simple. What's the point of a school having a police force of its own if they don't have a school shooting response down? Move to contact and engage. Watching the officers move up and down that hallway was infuriating. The first two officers should have been able to breach the door and put bullets on the bad guy.

I'm also dying to know what was going on outside the building. Was there anyone trying to shoot the attacker through a window? I suspect things are only going to get worse when we hear the audio from the radio traffic.

arthwollipot · 13th July 2022, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Hey blue lives matter, no one says children matter.

Not after they're born.

Shalamar · 13th July 2022, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Not after they're born.

You were not allowed to get an abortion because 'BABIES!'?
Send 'em to school.

Bob001 · 13th July 2022, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

It's like what I asked in Chauvin/Floyd thread (and oddly enough never got an answer to from the cop apologists.)

In their version of the events what where they waiting on? What change in the scenario had to happen before they acted?

Obviously they were waiting for the shooter to run out of bullets. Safety first!

azazal · 13th July 2022, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Obviously they were waiting for the shooter to run out of bullets. Safety first!

Unfortunately I think you are half right. I would not be surprised if it turns out that they were waiting for the shooter to take himself out, as has happened with so many other mass shootings.

Planigale · 14th July 2022, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

I finally watched the entire video. I am so beyond disgusted. I was a cop and I know what you sign on for when you take that job. That was cowardice pure and simple. What's the point of a school having a police force of its own if they don't have a school shooting response down? Move to contact and engage. Watching the officers move up and down that hallway was infuriating. The first two officers should have been able to breach the door and put bullets on the bad guy.

I'm also dying to know what was going on outside the building. Was there anyone trying to shoot the attacker through a window? I suspect things are only going to get worse when we hear the audio from the radio traffic.

One thing that police forces should do is plan for and rehearse the response to a major incident. The number one major incident that a school police force should have planned and rehearsed was a school shooting. It is not as if they are an unknown entity. That major incident plan should have included interactions with the city police and county forces. It should have had explicit who was thhe incident commander, and what was the command structure. It shouild have been rehearsed in collaboration with city and county forces.

It seems as if they had no pre-existing plan in place. An indictment of all the senior police in the area. The city police should have been insisting (and county LEO), that the school police has a mojor incident plan inplace and it was rehearsed with all the local law enforcement who might be involved (and of course fire and rescue and medical services locally).

Captain_Swoop · 14th July 2022, 07:19 AM

That would mean doing some actual work

JoeMorgue · 14th July 2022, 07:21 AM

Listen this is a small town in Texas. These people did not want to be cops.

They wanted to cosplay as cops and get paid for it. They wanted to play dress up and put accessories on their AR-15s and share Facebook memes about how cool being a cop is.

Armitage72 · 14th July 2022, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by crescent

More on the video:

Many have noticed the one cop who checks his phone - he's one of the first to enter the building. Seen checking his phone at the 8:50 mark in the video. His phone has a "Punisher" logo thing on the screen. That all really enraged people.

https://twitter.com/moodyforelpaso/s...91847332069376

ETA: The officer in question moves off screen after checking the phone a few times. I don't see him again after that, but in the video we don't see him attempt to engage. It at least explains checking the phone.

According to Snopes there is some disagreement on the identity of the phone cop, and they're conducting research.

Quote:

The image is authentic. But after it went viral, with angry comments about an officer checking his phone during an active shooter situation at an elementary school, some interjected to claim that the officer was Ruben Ruiz, whose wife, a teacher, was also inside the school. Joe Moody, a Texas state legislator from El Paso, for example, claimed it was Ruiz

Quote:

But others claimed the person pictured was not Ruiz, but was instead a different officer from a different department.

Twitter Post: "That's not a Uvalde Police patch on his arm; it's a Uvalde school police patch. And those are lieutenant bars on the collar."

We reached out to Uvalde police asking if the officer pictured is, in fact, Ruiz. We will update this story when and if we receive a response.

Bob001 · 14th July 2022, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

According to Snopes there is some disagreement on the identity of the phone cop, and they're conducting research.
.....

A local report says this:

Quote:

Mireles had called her husband from inside her classroom, saying she “had been shot and was dying” after the gunman’s attack.

Texas Department of Public Safety Director Col. Steven McCraw said that Ruiz tried to save her, but was barred from doing so.

“And what happened to him, is he tried to move forward into the hallway,” McCraw said in his testimony. “He was detained and they took his gun away from him and escorted him off the scene.”

McCraw didn’t specify who detained Ruiz.

Moody said despite what’s surfaced in the video, he confirmed that Ruiz had tried to engage the shooter but was disarmed.

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022...chers-husband/

But the guy in the picture is holding a pistol, and he obviously is on the scene.

JoeMorgue · 14th July 2022, 08:43 AM

I don't really care who he is. He you aren't going to engage the shooter leave the scene.

shemp · 14th July 2022, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I don't really care who he is. He you aren't going to engage the shooter leave the scene.

If all the cops had done that and went to get coffee and donuts, it wouldn't surprise me any further.

JoeMorgue · 14th July 2022, 10:02 AM

Listen literally the only thing left that could make this worse is finding out that they accidently shot at least of the kids, and that wouldn't surprise me.

28th June 2022, 11:50 PM	#41
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,372	Shooting the Messenger has always worked before.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

29th June 2022, 12:13 AM	#42
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,486	Originally Posted by lionking My Australian state of Victoria has a population of 6.6 million and a force of 23000. It’s not perfect but is well run and is generally respected. It still has local presence without the need of hundreds of forces in the state. Back in the 80s their reputation wasn't all that great...
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

29th June 2022, 12:36 AM	#43
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 50,611	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Back in the 80s their reputation wasn't all that great... Well I worked there then and had a seat on Force Command. But you are right. Two police assassinated in South Yarra led to a police over-reaction. There were evil crooks killed at that time, but it wasn’t right. I remember the CCP congratulating a Commissioner (sarcastically) for the fact that one of his members refrained from shooting a fleeing crim. But I think their reputation was pretty solid with the general public. The sainted Mick Miller was CCP during the 1980s, followed by his deputy Kel Glare, both decent men. The 10 years after that were overseen by poor leaders.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

9th July 2022, 12:46 PM	#46
sarge Philosopher Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 8,884	Originally Posted by Checkmite If it weren't for the specific circumstances this would almost be comical. Consider how many ultimately unarmed people have been preemptively gunned down while running away as a matter of course by officers because they hypothetically might have a gun and their hands are within four feet of their waistbands; and here's a guy with a massmurder-15 on full display running pointedly toward a school building and suddenly they have to check with the boss and make sure it's okay first. As bizarre as it must seem to the civilized world, running with an AR-15 is not against the law most places in the US. If I’m reading the law in Texas correctly, one can not legally carry a gun in a school in Texas, but the law specifically defines ‘school’ as only the buildings themselves and not the general campus area. So, if* that is correct, a cop in Texas would be quite safe in shooting a citizen during a traffic stop if the citizen nervously reached under their seat for something, but not in shooting someone running adjacent to a school with an AR-15. Cool, huh? *if it’s not correct, I will be fine with that.
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9th July 2022, 04:48 PM	#48
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	I don't know what Texas law is but under what was the DoJ use of force policy in the late 90s, the legality of having the weapon wouldn't play into the decision to fire. Under the "Reasonable Officer" rule, you would be justified in firing at a person running toward the school with a weapon if it appeared to a trained officer that the person intended to kill or cause serious bodily harm to to people in the school. An officer would not be justified in firing on a person walking on the school grounds with a rifle slung over their shoulder. The officer (in my view) would be justified in firing if the person was running toward the door of the school with the weapon at port arms (weapon off the shoulder held in front, weak hand on the stock, strong hand on the pistol grip ready to fire). In both cases (as I understand it) possessing the weapon would not be against Texas law (stupid). However, in the second scenario, a trained officer would reasonably conclude that the armed person posed an imminent threat to people in the school.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

9th July 2022, 01:14 PM	#47
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 15,638	Originally Posted by sarge As bizarre as it must seem to the civilized world, running with an AR-15 is not against the law most places in the US. If I’m reading the law in Texas correctly, one can not legally carry a gun in a school in Texas, but the law specifically defines ‘school’ as only the buildings themselves and not the general campus area. .... Well, in this particular case the guy had already been reported shooting at people. That's why the police were there. So the cop could be pretty sure it wasn't, say, a teacher planning to go hunting after school. On the other hand, we do generally want cops to check with supervisors before they shoot people, as this cop did. So I dunno.

12th July 2022, 03:30 PM	#49
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,017	Daily Mail reports on a video from inside the school hallway. It shows that cops did nothing for 77 minutes.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

12th July 2022, 04:57 PM	#50
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,372	Originally Posted by William Parcher Daily Mail reports on a video from inside the school hallway. It shows that cops did nothing for 77 minutes. https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8 This is the full 72 minute video Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12th July 2022, 06:25 PM	#51
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,407	The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release.
	__________________

12th July 2022, 09:32 PM	#52
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,940	Originally Posted by Wildy The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release. That dude thinks he's got a shot at reelection. Me, I don't see how any of their city leaders keep their jobs. Unions protect the cops, so the people who ostensibly control the cops need to be wiped out.

13th July 2022, 01:23 AM	#53
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,660	What the police did, hanging around in the school, not tackling the shooter, is on pretty much every UK news site at the moment. https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/12/uvald...tion-16989392/
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13th July 2022, 01:27 AM	#54
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,486	Australian ones too: New 'horrifying footage' shows police milling in hallway during Uvalde massacre, waiting to confront shooter
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

13th July 2022, 03:07 AM	#55
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	Originally Posted by Wildy The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release. CNN was reporting that there was a plan for the families who wanted to to see the footage before it got released. From what I heard, the families are feeling blindsided by the fact that it went out to the world before they saw it. I can see their point. I can also see the point of the news outlets who published the footage. In the long run, I'm glad the public can see, unfiltered how badly the police ****** this up. To quote retired chief Charles Ramsey: "I've seen bravery and this ain't it." https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

13th July 2022, 03:45 AM	#56
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,372	Originally Posted by Craig4 https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html For your link: Uvalde mayor Don McLaughlin said the Statesman's actions [in releasing the video] were "one of the most chicken things I've ever seen." Presumably that was before he had a chance to watch the video.

13th July 2022, 04:43 AM	#57
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	60 shots into an unarmed person in Ohio looks a whole lot different after watching a couple dozen police armed with assault rifles and ballistic shields milling about in the hallway while children get murdered. Our police appear capable of protecting us from the unarmed.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

13th July 2022, 04:53 AM	#58
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,205	Steve McCraw, Texas's public safety chief, has described the police response to the 24 May attack as an "abject failure" and said officers wasted vital time looking for a classroom key that was "never needed." On-scene commander Pete Arredondo had "decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children," he said. "The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," he testified. https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2022/0713...hool-shooting/
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

13th July 2022, 08:43 AM	#59
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,774	Originally Posted by catsmate Steve McCraw, Texas's public safety chief, has described the police response to the 24 May attack as an "abject failure" and said officers wasted vital time looking for a classroom key that was "never needed." On-scene commander Pete Arredondo had "decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children," he said. "The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," he testified. https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2022/0713...hool-shooting/ Hey blue lives matter, no one says children matter.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

13th July 2022, 10:39 AM	#60
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,660	Originally Posted by Craig4 60 shots into an unarmed person in Ohio looks a whole lot different after watching a couple dozen police armed with assault rifles and ballistic shields milling about in the hallway while children get murdered. Our police appear capable of protecting us from the unarmed. The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

13th July 2022, 12:06 PM	#61
azazal Ninja Wave: Techno Ninja Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 429	Originally Posted by Matthew Best https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8 This is the full 72 minute video Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk So given the difference between the lack of response from Uvalde law enforcement compared to Paris law enforcement's response to the 2015 terror attacks, particularly the Bataclan theater, can Parisians refer to Texas police as BBQ eating, beer swilling surrender monkeys?
	__________________ _____________________________________________ My gun collection has killed 5 fewer people than the Kennedy clan has with cars, airplanes and golf clubs. - Ranb

13th July 2022, 12:17 PM	#62
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,827	Originally Posted by Nessie The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers. It seems perfectly rational. After Uvalde people thought all policemen are lazy scared bastards. Nobody wants to perceived that way. So in Ohio they made sure they are not. They might have overdone it a bit, sure, but I think the sentiment counts.

13th July 2022, 12:27 PM	#63
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,325	Originally Posted by Nessie The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers. International observers tend to struggle with the idea that the US is not a relatively compact and homogenous state, divided into administrative zones for ease of central management. I'm not sure justifying themselves, or even explaining themselves, to foreign observers is necessary, or even useful. We're busy enough just trying to explain ourselves to each other.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

13th July 2022, 12:53 PM	#64
crescent Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,951	Originally Posted by Matthew Best https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8 This is the full 72 minute video Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The audio is edited. They had to edit out the sounds of the children screaming. https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html Quote: Importantly, the audio of children screaming was edited out. When the first police show up they go to the door, and back off fast. One was rubbing the side of his head and looking at his hand. Like he thought he might have been grazed and was looking to see if he was bleeding. And I can see if you get that close to getting a bullet in the head, its really, really hard not to give in to the instinct to seek safety. I can't really strongly fault that guy for backing off, even if its not what we want them to do. But then...nothing. The surprise was over and they knew what was happening and still didn't move. They had guys with full body armor including helmets and shields - and still didn't move. For more than an hour. That's absolutely indefensible. Very fast gunfire when the shooter first goes in - he was probably bump firing. That's apparently not hard to learn, but still suggests that he had a bit of practice. He had just purchased the guns that he used, but had probably already had some familiarity with that type of gun.

13th July 2022, 12:55 PM	#65
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 40,785	It's like what I asked in Chauvin/Floyd thread (and oddly enough never got an answer to from the cop apologists.) In their version of the events what where they waiting on? What change in the scenario had to happen before they acted?
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

13th July 2022, 01:03 PM	#66
bobdroege7 Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,556	Originally Posted by azazal So given the difference between the lack of response from Uvalde law enforcement compared to Paris law enforcement's response to the 2015 terror attacks, particularly the Bataclan theater, can Parisians refer to Texas police as BBQ eating, beer swilling surrender monkeys? Can you make that hand sanitizing surrender monkeys?
bobdroege7 Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,556	__________________ Un-american Jack-booted thug Graduate of a liberal arts college! Faster play faster faster play faster

13th July 2022, 02:49 PM	#67
crescent Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,951	More on the video: Many have noticed the one cop who checks his phone - he's one of the first to enter the building. Seen checking his phone at the 8:50 mark in the video. His phone has a "Punisher" logo thing on the screen. That all really enraged people. https://twitter.com/moodyforelpaso/s...91847332069376 Quote: This is the husband of teacher Eva Mireles, who contacted him on his phone from her classroom while he was on-scene to say that she’d been shot and was dying. 1/2 Quote: I’d not planned to speak publicly until the report was released, but I couldn’t say nothing seeing this man, who’s lost everything, maligned as if he was indifferent or actively malicious. Context matters. 2/2 Quote: To those who haven’t bothered to read even the news that’s been reported in your rush to judgment, he attempted to engage but was removed from the building and disarmed. We’ll have much to say about the police response, but no criticism of this officer. ETA: The officer in question moves off screen after checking the phone a few times. I don't see him again after that, but in the video we don't see him attempt to engage. It at least explains checking the phone.
	Last edited by crescent; 13th July 2022 at 02:58 PM.

13th July 2022, 04:42 PM	#68
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	I finally watched the entire video. I am so beyond disgusted. I was a cop and I know what you sign on for when you take that job. That was cowardice pure and simple. What's the point of a school having a police force of its own if they don't have a school shooting response down? Move to contact and engage. Watching the officers move up and down that hallway was infuriating. The first two officers should have been able to breach the door and put bullets on the bad guy. I'm also dying to know what was going on outside the building. Was there anyone trying to shoot the attacker through a window? I suspect things are only going to get worse when we hear the audio from the radio traffic.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

13th July 2022, 05:41 PM	#69
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,486	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Hey blue lives matter, no one says children matter. Not after they're born.
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

13th July 2022, 05:59 PM	#70
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere Else Posts: 5,562	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Not after they're born. You were not allowed to get an abortion because 'BABIES!'? Send 'em to school.
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

13th July 2022, 07:06 PM	#71
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 15,638	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue It's like what I asked in Chauvin/Floyd thread (and oddly enough never got an answer to from the cop apologists.) In their version of the events what where they waiting on? What change in the scenario had to happen before they acted? Obviously they were waiting for the shooter to run out of bullets. Safety first!

13th July 2022, 09:39 PM	#72
azazal Ninja Wave: Techno Ninja Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 429	Originally Posted by Bob001 Obviously they were waiting for the shooter to run out of bullets. Safety first! Unfortunately I think you are half right. I would not be surprised if it turns out that they were waiting for the shooter to take himself out, as has happened with so many other mass shootings.
	__________________ _____________________________________________ My gun collection has killed 5 fewer people than the Kennedy clan has with cars, airplanes and golf clubs. - Ranb

14th July 2022, 06:21 AM	#73
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 5,661	Originally Posted by Craig4 I finally watched the entire video. I am so beyond disgusted. I was a cop and I know what you sign on for when you take that job. That was cowardice pure and simple. What's the point of a school having a police force of its own if they don't have a school shooting response down? Move to contact and engage. Watching the officers move up and down that hallway was infuriating. The first two officers should have been able to breach the door and put bullets on the bad guy. I'm also dying to know what was going on outside the building. Was there anyone trying to shoot the attacker through a window? I suspect things are only going to get worse when we hear the audio from the radio traffic. One thing that police forces should do is plan for and rehearse the response to a major incident. The number one major incident that a school police force should have planned and rehearsed was a school shooting. It is not as if they are an unknown entity. That major incident plan should have included interactions with the city police and county forces. It should have had explicit who was thhe incident commander, and what was the command structure. It shouild have been rehearsed in collaboration with city and county forces. It seems as if they had no pre-existing plan in place. An indictment of all the senior police in the area. The city police should have been insisting (and county LEO), that the school police has a mojor incident plan inplace and it was rehearsed with all the local law enforcement who might be involved (and of course fire and rescue and medical services locally).

14th July 2022, 07:19 AM	#74
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	That would mean doing some actual work

14th July 2022, 07:21 AM	#75
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 40,785	Listen this is a small town in Texas. These people did not want to be cops. They wanted to cosplay as cops and get paid for it. They wanted to play dress up and put accessories on their AR-15s and share Facebook memes about how cool being a cop is.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

14th July 2022, 07:33 AM	#76
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 7,203	Originally Posted by crescent More on the video: Many have noticed the one cop who checks his phone - he's one of the first to enter the building. Seen checking his phone at the 8:50 mark in the video. His phone has a "Punisher" logo thing on the screen. That all really enraged people. https://twitter.com/moodyforelpaso/s...91847332069376 ETA: The officer in question moves off screen after checking the phone a few times. I don't see him again after that, but in the video we don't see him attempt to engage. It at least explains checking the phone. According to Snopes there is some disagreement on the identity of the phone cop, and they're conducting research. Quote: The image is authentic. But after it went viral, with angry comments about an officer checking his phone during an active shooter situation at an elementary school, some interjected to claim that the officer was Ruben Ruiz, whose wife, a teacher, was also inside the school. Joe Moody, a Texas state legislator from El Paso, for example, claimed it was Ruiz Quote: But others claimed the person pictured was not Ruiz, but was instead a different officer from a different department. Twitter Post: "That's not a Uvalde Police patch on his arm; it's a Uvalde school police patch. And those are lieutenant bars on the collar." We reached out to Uvalde police asking if the officer pictured is, in fact, Ruiz. We will update this story when and if we receive a response.

14th July 2022, 08:40 AM	#77
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 15,638	Originally Posted by Armitage72 According to Snopes there is some disagreement on the identity of the phone cop, and they're conducting research. ..... A local report says this: Quote: Mireles had called her husband from inside her classroom, saying she “had been shot and was dying” after the gunman’s attack. Texas Department of Public Safety Director Col. Steven McCraw said that Ruiz tried to save her, but was barred from doing so. “And what happened to him, is he tried to move forward into the hallway,” McCraw said in his testimony. “He was detained and they took his gun away from him and escorted him off the scene.” McCraw didn’t specify who detained Ruiz. Moody said despite what’s surfaced in the video, he confirmed that Ruiz had tried to engage the shooter but was disarmed. https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022...chers-husband/ But the guy in the picture is holding a pistol, and he obviously is on the scene.