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Old 28th June 2022, 11:50 PM   #41
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Shooting the Messenger has always worked before.
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Old 29th June 2022, 12:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
My Australian state of Victoria has a population of 6.6 million and a force of 23000. It’s not perfect but is well run and is generally respected. It still has local presence without the need of hundreds of forces in the state.
Back in the 80s their reputation wasn't all that great...
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Old 29th June 2022, 12:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Back in the 80s their reputation wasn't all that great...
Well I worked there then and had a seat on Force Command. But you are right. Two police assassinated in South Yarra led to a police over-reaction. There were evil crooks killed at that time, but it wasn’t right. I remember the CCP congratulating a Commissioner (sarcastically) for the fact that one of his members refrained from shooting a fleeing crim.

But I think their reputation was pretty solid with the general public. The sainted Mick Miller was CCP during the 1980s, followed by his deputy Kel Glare, both decent men. The 10 years after that were overseen by poor leaders.
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Old 7th July 2022, 11:22 PM   #44
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I AGREE


A Uvalde police officer had the gunman in his sights before he entered the school and, and this is the ironic thing, waiting for permission to shoot

According to a new report
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Old 9th July 2022, 11:17 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
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I AGREE


A Uvalde police officer had the gunman in his sights before he entered the school and, and this is the ironic thing, waiting for permission to shoot

According to a new report
If it weren't for the specific circumstances this would almost be comical. Consider how many ultimately unarmed people have been preemptively gunned down while running away as a matter of course by officers because they hypothetically might have a gun and their hands are within four feet of their waistbands; and here's a guy with a massmurder-15 on full display running pointedly toward a school building and suddenly they have to check with the boss and make sure it's okay first.
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Old 9th July 2022, 12:46 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
If it weren't for the specific circumstances this would almost be comical. Consider how many ultimately unarmed people have been preemptively gunned down while running away as a matter of course by officers because they hypothetically might have a gun and their hands are within four feet of their waistbands; and here's a guy with a massmurder-15 on full display running pointedly toward a school building and suddenly they have to check with the boss and make sure it's okay first.
As bizarre as it must seem to the civilized world, running with an AR-15 is not against the law most places in the US. If I’m reading the law in Texas correctly, one can not legally carry a gun in a school in Texas, but the law specifically defines ‘school’ as only the buildings themselves and not the general campus area.

So, if* that is correct, a cop in Texas would be quite safe in shooting a citizen during a traffic stop if the citizen nervously reached under their seat for something, but not in shooting someone running adjacent to a school with an AR-15. Cool, huh?




*if it’s not correct, I will be fine with that.
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Old 9th July 2022, 01:14 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
As bizarre as it must seem to the civilized world, running with an AR-15 is not against the law most places in the US. If I’m reading the law in Texas correctly, one can not legally carry a gun in a school in Texas, but the law specifically defines ‘school’ as only the buildings themselves and not the general campus area.
....
Well, in this particular case the guy had already been reported shooting at people. That's why the police were there. So the cop could be pretty sure it wasn't, say, a teacher planning to go hunting after school. On the other hand, we do generally want cops to check with supervisors before they shoot people, as this cop did. So I dunno.
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Old 9th July 2022, 04:48 PM   #48
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I don't know what Texas law is but under what was the DoJ use of force policy in the late 90s, the legality of having the weapon wouldn't play into the decision to fire. Under the "Reasonable Officer" rule, you would be justified in firing at a person running toward the school with a weapon if it appeared to a trained officer that the person intended to kill or cause serious bodily harm to to people in the school.

An officer would not be justified in firing on a person walking on the school grounds with a rifle slung over their shoulder. The officer (in my view) would be justified in firing if the person was running toward the door of the school with the weapon at port arms (weapon off the shoulder held in front, weak hand on the stock, strong hand on the pistol grip ready to fire). In both cases (as I understand it) possessing the weapon would not be against Texas law (stupid). However, in the second scenario, a trained officer would reasonably conclude that the armed person posed an imminent threat to people in the school.
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Old 12th July 2022, 03:30 PM   #49
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Daily Mail reports on a video from inside the school hallway. It shows that cops did nothing for 77 minutes.
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Old 12th July 2022, 04:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Daily Mail reports on a video from inside the school hallway. It shows that cops did nothing for 77 minutes.

https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8

This is the full 72 minute video


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Old 12th July 2022, 06:25 PM   #51
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The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release.
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Old 12th July 2022, 09:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release.
That dude thinks he's got a shot at reelection. Me, I don't see how any of their city leaders keep their jobs. Unions protect the cops, so the people who ostensibly control the cops need to be wiped out.
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Old 13th July 2022, 01:23 AM   #53
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What the police did, hanging around in the school, not tackling the shooter, is on pretty much every UK news site at the moment.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/12/uvald...tion-16989392/
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Old 13th July 2022, 01:27 AM   #54
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Australian ones too:

New 'horrifying footage' shows police milling in hallway during Uvalde massacre, waiting to confront shooter
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Old 13th July 2022, 03:07 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
The Mayor of Uvalde is butthurt about the release of the footage and is trying to use the families as a shield by claiming they were "blindsided" by the release.
CNN was reporting that there was a plan for the families who wanted to to see the footage before it got released. From what I heard, the families are feeling blindsided by the fact that it went out to the world before they saw it. I can see their point. I can also see the point of the news outlets who published the footage. In the long run, I'm glad the public can see, unfiltered how badly the police ****** this up.

To quote retired chief Charles Ramsey: "I've seen bravery and this ain't it."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html
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Old 13th July 2022, 03:45 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
For your link:

Uvalde mayor Don McLaughlin said the Statesman's actions [in releasing the video] were "one of the most chicken things I've ever seen."

Presumably that was before he had a chance to watch the video.
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Old 13th July 2022, 04:43 AM   #57
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60 shots into an unarmed person in Ohio looks a whole lot different after watching a couple dozen police armed with assault rifles and ballistic shields milling about in the hallway while children get murdered. Our police appear capable of protecting us from the unarmed.
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Old 13th July 2022, 04:53 AM   #58
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Steve McCraw, Texas's public safety chief, has described the police response to the 24 May attack as an "abject failure" and said officers wasted vital time looking for a classroom key that was "never needed."

On-scene commander Pete Arredondo had "decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children," he said.
"The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," he testified.

https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2022/0713...hool-shooting/
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Old 13th July 2022, 08:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Steve McCraw, Texas's public safety chief, has described the police response to the 24 May attack as an "abject failure" and said officers wasted vital time looking for a classroom key that was "never needed."

On-scene commander Pete Arredondo had "decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children," he said.
"The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," he testified.

https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2022/0713...hool-shooting/
Hey blue lives matter, no one says children matter.
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Old 13th July 2022, 10:39 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
60 shots into an unarmed person in Ohio looks a whole lot different after watching a couple dozen police armed with assault rifles and ballistic shields milling about in the hallway while children get murdered. Our police appear capable of protecting us from the unarmed.
The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers.
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Old 13th July 2022, 12:06 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8

This is the full 72 minute video


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So given the difference between the lack of response from Uvalde law enforcement compared to Paris law enforcement's response to the 2015 terror attacks, particularly the Bataclan theater, can Parisians refer to Texas police as BBQ eating, beer swilling surrender monkeys?
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Old 13th July 2022, 12:17 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers.
It seems perfectly rational. After Uvalde people thought all policemen are lazy scared bastards. Nobody wants to perceived that way. So in Ohio they made sure they are not. They might have overdone it a bit, sure, but I think the sentiment counts.
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Old 13th July 2022, 12:27 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The two incidents, together, make the US attitude to guns look all the more bizarre and irrational, to international observers.
International observers tend to struggle with the idea that the US is not a relatively compact and homogenous state, divided into administrative zones for ease of central management. I'm not sure justifying themselves, or even explaining themselves, to foreign observers is necessary, or even useful. We're busy enough just trying to explain ourselves to each other.
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Old 13th July 2022, 12:53 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
https://youtu.be/I3poHE3nOb8

This is the full 72 minute video


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The audio is edited. They had to edit out the sounds of the children screaming.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/13/media...ces/index.html
Quote:
Importantly, the audio of children screaming was edited out.
When the first police show up they go to the door, and back off fast. One was rubbing the side of his head and looking at his hand. Like he thought he might have been grazed and was looking to see if he was bleeding. And I can see if you get that close to getting a bullet in the head, its really, really hard not to give in to the instinct to seek safety. I can't really strongly fault that guy for backing off, even if its not what we want them to do.

But then...nothing. The surprise was over and they knew what was happening and still didn't move. They had guys with full body armor including helmets and shields - and still didn't move. For more than an hour. That's absolutely indefensible.

Very fast gunfire when the shooter first goes in - he was probably bump firing. That's apparently not hard to learn, but still suggests that he had a bit of practice. He had just purchased the guns that he used, but had probably already had some familiarity with that type of gun.
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Old 13th July 2022, 12:55 PM   #65
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It's like what I asked in Chauvin/Floyd thread (and oddly enough never got an answer to from the cop apologists.)

In their version of the events what where they waiting on? What change in the scenario had to happen before they acted?
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Old 13th July 2022, 01:03 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by azazal View Post
So given the difference between the lack of response from Uvalde law enforcement compared to Paris law enforcement's response to the 2015 terror attacks, particularly the Bataclan theater, can Parisians refer to Texas police as BBQ eating, beer swilling surrender monkeys?
Can you make that hand sanitizing surrender monkeys?
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Old 13th July 2022, 02:49 PM   #67
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More on the video:

Many have noticed the one cop who checks his phone - he's one of the first to enter the building. Seen checking his phone at the 8:50 mark in the video. His phone has a "Punisher" logo thing on the screen. That all really enraged people.

https://twitter.com/moodyforelpaso/s...91847332069376
Quote:
This is the husband of teacher Eva Mireles, who contacted him on his phone from her classroom while he was on-scene to say that she’d been shot and was dying. 1/2
Quote:
I’d not planned to speak publicly until the report was released, but I couldn’t say nothing seeing this man, who’s lost everything, maligned as if he was indifferent or actively malicious. Context matters. 2/2
Quote:
To those who haven’t bothered to read even the news that’s been reported in your rush to judgment, he attempted to engage but was removed from the building and disarmed. We’ll have much to say about the police response, but no criticism of this officer.

ETA: The officer in question moves off screen after checking the phone a few times. I don't see him again after that, but in the video we don't see him attempt to engage. It at least explains checking the phone.

Last edited by crescent; 13th July 2022 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 13th July 2022, 04:42 PM   #68
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I finally watched the entire video. I am so beyond disgusted. I was a cop and I know what you sign on for when you take that job. That was cowardice pure and simple. What's the point of a school having a police force of its own if they don't have a school shooting response down? Move to contact and engage. Watching the officers move up and down that hallway was infuriating. The first two officers should have been able to breach the door and put bullets on the bad guy.

I'm also dying to know what was going on outside the building. Was there anyone trying to shoot the attacker through a window? I suspect things are only going to get worse when we hear the audio from the radio traffic.
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Old 13th July 2022, 05:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey blue lives matter, no one says children matter.
Not after they're born.
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Old 13th July 2022, 05:59 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Not after they're born.
You were not allowed to get an abortion because 'BABIES!'?
Send 'em to school.
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Old 13th July 2022, 07:06 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's like what I asked in Chauvin/Floyd thread (and oddly enough never got an answer to from the cop apologists.)

In their version of the events what where they waiting on? What change in the scenario had to happen before they acted?

Obviously they were waiting for the shooter to run out of bullets. Safety first!
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Old 13th July 2022, 09:39 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Obviously they were waiting for the shooter to run out of bullets. Safety first!
Unfortunately I think you are half right. I would not be surprised if it turns out that they were waiting for the shooter to take himself out, as has happened with so many other mass shootings.
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Old 14th July 2022, 06:21 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I finally watched the entire video. I am so beyond disgusted. I was a cop and I know what you sign on for when you take that job. That was cowardice pure and simple. What's the point of a school having a police force of its own if they don't have a school shooting response down? Move to contact and engage. Watching the officers move up and down that hallway was infuriating. The first two officers should have been able to breach the door and put bullets on the bad guy.

I'm also dying to know what was going on outside the building. Was there anyone trying to shoot the attacker through a window? I suspect things are only going to get worse when we hear the audio from the radio traffic.
One thing that police forces should do is plan for and rehearse the response to a major incident. The number one major incident that a school police force should have planned and rehearsed was a school shooting. It is not as if they are an unknown entity. That major incident plan should have included interactions with the city police and county forces. It should have had explicit who was thhe incident commander, and what was the command structure. It shouild have been rehearsed in collaboration with city and county forces.

It seems as if they had no pre-existing plan in place. An indictment of all the senior police in the area. The city police should have been insisting (and county LEO), that the school police has a mojor incident plan inplace and it was rehearsed with all the local law enforcement who might be involved (and of course fire and rescue and medical services locally).
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Old 14th July 2022, 07:19 AM   #74
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That would mean doing some actual work
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Old 14th July 2022, 07:21 AM   #75
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Listen this is a small town in Texas. These people did not want to be cops.

They wanted to cosplay as cops and get paid for it. They wanted to play dress up and put accessories on their AR-15s and share Facebook memes about how cool being a cop is.
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Old 14th July 2022, 07:33 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
More on the video:

Many have noticed the one cop who checks his phone - he's one of the first to enter the building. Seen checking his phone at the 8:50 mark in the video. His phone has a "Punisher" logo thing on the screen. That all really enraged people.

https://twitter.com/moodyforelpaso/s...91847332069376


ETA: The officer in question moves off screen after checking the phone a few times. I don't see him again after that, but in the video we don't see him attempt to engage. It at least explains checking the phone.

According to Snopes there is some disagreement on the identity of the phone cop, and they're conducting research.

Quote:
The image is authentic. But after it went viral, with angry comments about an officer checking his phone during an active shooter situation at an elementary school, some interjected to claim that the officer was Ruben Ruiz, whose wife, a teacher, was also inside the school. Joe Moody, a Texas state legislator from El Paso, for example, claimed it was Ruiz
Quote:
But others claimed the person pictured was not Ruiz, but was instead a different officer from a different department.

Twitter Post: "That's not a Uvalde Police patch on his arm; it's a Uvalde school police patch. And those are lieutenant bars on the collar."

We reached out to Uvalde police asking if the officer pictured is, in fact, Ruiz. We will update this story when and if we receive a response.
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Old 14th July 2022, 08:40 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
According to Snopes there is some disagreement on the identity of the phone cop, and they're conducting research.
.....

A local report says this:
Quote:
Mireles had called her husband from inside her classroom, saying she “had been shot and was dying” after the gunman’s attack.

Texas Department of Public Safety Director Col. Steven McCraw said that Ruiz tried to save her, but was barred from doing so.

“And what happened to him, is he tried to move forward into the hallway,” McCraw said in his testimony. “He was detained and they took his gun away from him and escorted him off the scene.”

McCraw didn’t specify who detained Ruiz.

Moody said despite what’s surfaced in the video, he confirmed that Ruiz had tried to engage the shooter but was disarmed.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022...chers-husband/

But the guy in the picture is holding a pistol, and he obviously is on the scene.
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Old 14th July 2022, 08:43 AM   #78
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I don't really care who he is. He you aren't going to engage the shooter leave the scene.
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Old 14th July 2022, 10:00 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't really care who he is. He you aren't going to engage the shooter leave the scene.
If all the cops had done that and went to get coffee and donuts, it wouldn't surprise me any further.
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Old 14th July 2022, 10:02 AM   #80
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Listen literally the only thing left that could make this worse is finding out that they accidently shot at least of the kids, and that wouldn't surprise me.
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