Living in the Moon

Gord_in_Toronto · 27th July 2022, 07:06 PM

Yes in. NASA finds deep warm holes and caves.

NASA’S LRO Spacecraft Detects A Lunar Lava Pit That Promises Room Temperatures

Closer than Mars.

arthwollipot · 27th July 2022, 07:08 PM

Cool!

lionking · 27th July 2022, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Yes in. NASA finds deep warm holes and caves.

NASA’S LRO Spacecraft Detects A Lunar Lava Pit That Promises Room Temperatures

Closer than Mars.

I’m certain more than one Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe episode has spoken about lava tubes as the only option for a moon settlement.

theprestige · 27th July 2022, 07:12 PM

Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.

lionking · 27th July 2022, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.

It isn’t just temperatures, it’s probably more protection against cosmic radiation.

Gord_in_Toronto · 28th July 2022, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.

There are ways of filtering out advertising. (Forbes is not the magazine it once was.)

In the interest of those who can't:

Quote:

Would setting up a habitat inside a shaded lava pit crater save energy?

Maintaining the heat that humans and robots need to survive costs a lot of energy, and during the day we are easily able to harness the Sun's energy to regulate temperatures, says Horvath. During the two-week lunar night, however, we must either produce it ourselves or have enough stored to survive for two weeks, he says.

By placing your habitat in a lunar cave, you almost entirely remove the need to regulate temperature, and it brings your energy requirements down drastically, says Horvath.

theprestige · 28th July 2022, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

It isn’t just temperatures, it’s probably more protection against cosmic radiation.

The radiation shielding incentive was already well-known. The temperature incentive is a new finding.

theprestige · 28th July 2022, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

There are ways of filtering out advertising. (Forbes is not the magazine it once was.)

I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page.

Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic?

ahhell · 28th July 2022, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page.

Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.

That was a remarkably obnoxious web page.

The thing with the temps is mostly about the extreme fluctuations that occur on the surface. Hundreds of degrees in a day apparently.

Yalius · 28th July 2022, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Cool!

No. Not cool. Comfortably warm, in fact.

smartcooky · 28th July 2022, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page.

Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic?

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...ts-comfortable

Spektator · 28th July 2022, 11:22 AM

H.G. Wells was right?

theprestige · 28th July 2022, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...ts-comfortable

Thanks! That is a pretty cool finding.

wobs · 28th July 2022, 12:42 PM

Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars, and even then it would be just to explore... why would anyone want live on another planet of moon?

Its like living on Antartica, there are research stations there, but people don't live there permanently, and if they stay there too long, they suffer from psychological issues.

So basically, it would be a little place people might live in for a few weeks?

Gord_in_Toronto · 28th July 2022, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page.

Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic?

Forbes is not the same after being bought by Whale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes

theprestige · 28th July 2022, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by wobs

Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars, and even then it would be just to explore... why would anyone want live on another planet of moon?

Its like living on Antartica, there are research stations there, but people don't live there permanently, and if they stay there too long, they suffer from psychological issues.

So basically, it would be a little place people might live in for a few weeks?

I generally feel the same way about moon habitats.

But the point about Antarctica is relevant: Even if we don't intend to live there permanently, we still want people stationed there to be able to live well enough to do useful work for cost-effective periods of time without going insane or getting moonsick.

The real questions being: Why would we want to station people there. And the answers of course are: Science, and resource extraction. I'm not a big fan of the "Mars stopover" answer, which seems to me more like a detour. Once you've got a Mars traveler in orbit, you might as well just keep going from there. Trains don't go to Newcastle to get coal. Rather, Newcastle ships coal to the train depots.

arthwollipot · 28th July 2022, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Yalius

No. Not cool. Comfortably warm, in fact.

I was waiting for that. Thank you for obliging.

Mike! · 29th July 2022, 04:38 AM

"...Giant steps are what you take, living in the Moon.
I hope my legs don't break, living in the Moon... "

Gord_in_Toronto · 29th July 2022, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

"...Giant steps are what you take, living in the Moon.
I hope my legs don't break, living in the Moon... "

Are you Mike from Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress? If so, I bow to your authority.

Captain_Swoop · 29th July 2022, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

That was a remarkably obnoxious web page.

The thing with the temps is mostly about the extreme fluctuations that occur on the surface. Hundreds of degrees in a day apparently.

Remembering a lunar day is not the same as an earth Day.

Jim_MDP · 29th July 2022, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Remembering a lunar day is not the same as an earth Day.

Scrolled down to see if he would catch, uh .. hell for that gaffe.
You're feeling rather generous today.

novaphile · 29th July 2022, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Are you Mike from Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress? If so, I bow to your authority.

Hmm...

Mike didn't have any legs.

Are you thinking of Mannie?

Gord_in_Toronto · 30th July 2022, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

Hmm...

Mike didn't have any legs.

Are you thinking of Mannie?

Oh. Oh. You caught me. But I have to admit I was not thinking at all.

Mike! · 30th July 2022, 11:46 AM

For the record, I have legs, and I'm not that Mike.

Gord_in_Toronto · 30th July 2022, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mike!

For the record, I have legs, and I'm not that Mike.

Phew. Finally, one question answered definitively in this forum.

HansMustermann · 31st July 2022, 05:59 AM

There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body.

Roger Ramjets · 31st July 2022, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by wobs

Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars,

Sillier and sillier...

wobs · 2nd August 2022, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body.

Indeed, which is why Venus would be better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-WO-z-QuWI&vl=en-GB
(couldn't work out the YT link code on this one)
But even that would be pointless.
At the end of the day, space is really difficult, and its easier and cheaper to do things on Earth.

rjh01 · 2nd August 2022, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by wobs

Indeed, which is why Venus would be better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-WO-z-QuWI&vl=en-GB
(couldn't work out the YT link code on this one)
But even that would be pointless.
At the end of the day, space is really difficult, and its easier and cheaper to do things on Earth.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Here is your video. To terraform Venus will take several centuries.

One thing that could be done is to live on airships in the atmosphere above the clouds where the air pressure is not too much different from Earth. Not sure what could be done there that could also not be done on Earth. Maybe research about Venus?

HansMustermann · 2nd August 2022, 08:23 AM

Well, I suppose it could serve a purpose. We could take bets about how long until they start murdering each other. And then make it a reality show.

Beelzebuddy · 2nd August 2022, 11:13 AM

Every time, I swear.

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body.

The moon doesn't have micro-gravity. It has the regular kind, just less of it. There's an up and a down. Ear canals and ceiling fans will work. That's very different from a microgravity environment.

Space colonization is going to face enough possibly-insurmountable problems not to have to drag wrong ones along just in case you run out.

wobs · 2nd August 2022, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Here is your video. To terraform Venus will take several centuries.

One thing that could be done is to live on airships in the atmosphere above the clouds where the air pressure is not too much different from Earth. Not sure what could be done there that could also not be done on Earth. Maybe research about Venus?

Thank you, and I agree.

theprestige · 2nd August 2022, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Here is your video. To terraform Venus will take several centuries.

One thing that could be done is to live on airships in the atmosphere above the clouds where the air pressure is not too much different from Earth. Not sure what could be done there that could also not be done on Earth. Maybe research about Venus?

By the time we're ready to do airship-based Venus research, we'll probably be in a position to just have the airships be unmanned.

HansMustermann · 2nd August 2022, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Every time, I swear.

The moon doesn't have micro-gravity. It has the regular kind, just less of it. There's an up and a down. Ear canals and ceiling fans will work. That's very different from a microgravity environment.

Space colonization is going to face enough possibly-insurmountable problems not to have to drag wrong ones along just in case you run out.

I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means. There IS one single kind of gravity: the GR kind. Less of it is the whole problem.

theprestige · 2nd August 2022, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means. There IS one single kind of gravity: the GR kind. Less of it is the whole problem.

Microgravity is the current pedantic term for what we previously called zero g. Lunar gravity is substantially greater than that. Biological processes that depend on gravity get some help from the moon, but none at all from the microgravity measured on the ISS and elsewhere in the solar system.

HansMustermann · 2nd August 2022, 03:52 PM

However you wish to name any given percentage of 1g, the problem is that we have doubts if even Mars 0.38g gravity is enough to keep you healthy over a long enough time. The cut-off, as far as anyone knows at the moment seems to be around 0.4g for stuff to start getting measurably worse over time. Below 0.4g it's considered that both cardio-pulmonary and musculo-skeletal properties start going south.(Source, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tematic_Review )

I suppose that on Mars we might get away with it, at least for a while, if you force everyone to exercise every day.

Moon's 0.16g is almost universally considered not enough. Just nope. We're no longer talking about being 5% under that minimum and maybe we can just fudge it for a few years at a time like on Mars. We're talking about being 2.5 TIMES below that minimum.

So, basically, sure, name it whatever you wish, but the main issue is that there just isn't enough of it. Arguing about how to call it, won't change the fact that it's just not good for your health.

theprestige · 2nd August 2022, 04:26 PM

I just wish to use the the established, industry standard names. If you want to talk about low gravity, talk about low gravity. Don't talk about microgravity and then insist it counts as low gravity. It doesn't.

BowlOfRed · 2nd August 2022, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means.

An environment where you can commonly measure acceleration between 0g and 0.000001g. That should be true for the ISS outside of powered events (boosts, attitude changes, etc.)

BowlOfRed · 2nd August 2022, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by BowlOfRed

That should be true for the ISS outside of powered events (boosts, attitude changes, etc.)

Oops, that last part isn't true. While the long-term range is right, many vibration events cause that limit to be exceeded on the ISS.

RecoveringYuppy · 5th August 2022, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

So, basically, sure, name it whatever you wish, but the main issue is that there just isn't enough of it. Arguing about how to call it, won't change the fact that it's just not good for your health.

I don't think that is known to be a fact.

It may be that if you live on the Moon or Mars you will take advantage of the lower gravity and start walking faster and jumping higher in the normal course of a day and put full (or enough) stress on your bones.

Current knowledge of bone loss is mostly based on bed rest patients which may not be a good analog.

Here is an article from three years ago about ESA studies on this:

https://newatlas.com/esa-astronuats-...gravity/58221/

27th July 2022, 07:06 PM	#1
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Living in the Moon Yes in. NASA finds deep warm holes and caves. NASA’S LRO Spacecraft Detects A Lunar Lava Pit That Promises Room Temperatures Closer than Mars.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

27th July 2022, 07:08 PM	#2
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,467	Cool!
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

27th July 2022, 07:11 PM	#3
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 50,543	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Yes in. NASA finds deep warm holes and caves. NASA’S LRO Spacecraft Detects A Lunar Lava Pit That Promises Room Temperatures Closer than Mars. I’m certain more than one Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe episode has spoken about lava tubes as the only option for a moon settlement.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

27th July 2022, 07:12 PM	#4
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page. Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

27th July 2022, 07:17 PM	#5
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 50,543	Originally Posted by theprestige Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page. Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures. It isn’t just temperatures, it’s probably more protection against cosmic radiation.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

28th July 2022, 06:12 AM	#6
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by theprestige Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page. Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures. There are ways of filtering out advertising. (Forbes is not the magazine it once was.) In the interest of those who can't: Quote: Would setting up a habitat inside a shaded lava pit crater save energy? Maintaining the heat that humans and robots need to survive costs a lot of energy, and during the day we are easily able to harness the Sun's energy to regulate temperatures, says Horvath. During the two-week lunar night, however, we must either produce it ourselves or have enough stored to survive for two weeks, he says. By placing your habitat in a lunar cave, you almost entirely remove the need to regulate temperature, and it brings your energy requirements down drastically, says Horvath.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

28th July 2022, 08:30 AM	#7
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	Originally Posted by lionking It isn’t just temperatures, it’s probably more protection against cosmic radiation. The radiation shielding incentive was already well-known. The temperature incentive is a new finding.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

28th July 2022, 08:32 AM	#8
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto There are ways of filtering out advertising. (Forbes is not the magazine it once was.) I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page. Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic?
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

28th July 2022, 08:41 AM	#9
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 4,516	Originally Posted by theprestige Too bad the link is an aggressive advertising attack page. Not to worry, though: In the interest of saving you a click, there is no lava on the moon. Just tunnels and pits attributed to ancient lava flows, and apparently harboring human-tolerable temperatures. That was a remarkably obnoxious web page. The thing with the temps is mostly about the extreme fluctuations that occur on the surface. Hundreds of degrees in a day apparently.
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 4,516

28th July 2022, 10:25 AM	#10
Yalius Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 811	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Cool! No. Not cool. Comfortably warm, in fact.
Yalius Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 811

28th July 2022, 11:22 AM	#11
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 21,807	Originally Posted by theprestige I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page. Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic? https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...ts-comfortable
	__________________ Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so" If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

28th July 2022, 11:22 AM	#12
Spektator Watching . . . always watching. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 2,067	H.G. Wells was right?

28th July 2022, 11:29 AM	#13
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	Originally Posted by smartcooky https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...ts-comfortable Thanks! That is a pretty cool finding.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

28th July 2022, 12:42 PM	#14
wobs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Hull Posts: 2,701	Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars, and even then it would be just to explore... why would anyone want live on another planet of moon? Its like living on Antartica, there are research stations there, but people don't live there permanently, and if they stay there too long, they suffer from psychological issues. So basically, it would be a little place people might live in for a few weeks?
	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag." Last edited by wobs; 28th July 2022 at 12:44 PM.

28th July 2022, 01:06 PM	#15
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by theprestige I generally don't do much about it besides basic ad-blocking. This suits me just fine, most of the time. My phone, however, very much hated that page. Is Forbes the original source, or is there some other primary source that's less misanthropic? Forbes is not the same after being bought by Whale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

28th July 2022, 01:06 PM	#16
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	Originally Posted by wobs Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars, and even then it would be just to explore... why would anyone want live on another planet of moon? Its like living on Antartica, there are research stations there, but people don't live there permanently, and if they stay there too long, they suffer from psychological issues. So basically, it would be a little place people might live in for a few weeks? I generally feel the same way about moon habitats. But the point about Antarctica is relevant: Even if we don't intend to live there permanently, we still want people stationed there to be able to live well enough to do useful work for cost-effective periods of time without going insane or getting moonsick. The real questions being: Why would we want to station people there. And the answers of course are: Science, and resource extraction. I'm not a big fan of the "Mars stopover" answer, which seems to me more like a detour. Once you've got a Mars traveler in orbit, you might as well just keep going from there. Trains don't go to Newcastle to get coal. Rather, Newcastle ships coal to the train depots.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division. Last edited by theprestige; 28th July 2022 at 01:08 PM.

28th July 2022, 08:32 PM	#17
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 77,467	Originally Posted by Yalius No. Not cool. Comfortably warm, in fact. I was waiting for that. Thank you for obliging.
	__________________ This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.

29th July 2022, 04:38 AM	#18
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 46,496	"...Giant steps are what you take, living in the Moon. I hope my legs don't break, living in the Moon... "
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

29th July 2022, 06:15 AM	#19
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by Mike! "...Giant steps are what you take, living in the Moon. I hope my legs don't break, living in the Moon... " Are you Mike from Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress? If so, I bow to your authority.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

29th July 2022, 07:50 AM	#20
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by ahhell That was a remarkably obnoxious web page. The thing with the temps is mostly about the extreme fluctuations that occur on the surface. Hundreds of degrees in a day apparently. Remembering a lunar day is not the same as an earth Day.

29th July 2022, 07:49 PM	#21
Jim_MDP Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 9,031	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Remembering a lunar day is not the same as an earth Day. Scrolled down to see if he would catch, uh .. hell for that gaffe. You're feeling rather generous today.
	__________________ ---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

29th July 2022, 10:15 PM	#22
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 3,418	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Are you Mike from Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress? If so, I bow to your authority. Hmm... Mike didn't have any legs. Are you thinking of Mannie?
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

30th July 2022, 09:30 AM	#23
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by novaphile Hmm... Mike didn't have any legs. Are you thinking of Mannie? Oh. Oh. You caught me. But I have to admit I was not thinking at all.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

30th July 2022, 11:46 AM	#24
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 46,496	For the record, I have legs, and I'm not that Mike.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

30th July 2022, 08:55 PM	#25
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,677	Originally Posted by Mike! For the record, I have legs, and I'm not that Mike. Phew. Finally, one question answered definitively in this forum.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

31st July 2022, 05:59 AM	#26
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 20,593	There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

31st July 2022, 07:21 PM	#27
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,880	Originally Posted by wobs Why would anyone want to live on the moon? Other than a stop off on the way to Mars, Sillier and sillier...
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

2nd August 2022, 01:35 AM	#28
wobs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Hull Posts: 2,701	Originally Posted by HansMustermann There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body. Indeed, which is why Venus would be better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-WO-z-QuWI&vl=en-GB (couldn't work out the YT link code on this one) But even that would be pointless. At the end of the day, space is really difficult, and its easier and cheaper to do things on Earth.
	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag." Last edited by wobs; 2nd August 2022 at 01:38 AM.

2nd August 2022, 08:23 AM	#30
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 20,593	Well, I suppose it could serve a purpose. We could take bets about how long until they start murdering each other. And then make it a reality show.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

2nd August 2022, 11:13 AM	#31
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 9,045	Every time, I swear. Originally Posted by HansMustermann There is a bigger problem, though, that Antarctica doesn't have: micro-gravity. It's really really bad for you in the long run. And we really have no idea how to mitigate its effects on the body. The moon doesn't have micro-gravity. It has the regular kind, just less of it. There's an up and a down. Ear canals and ceiling fans will work. That's very different from a microgravity environment. Space colonization is going to face enough possibly-insurmountable problems not to have to drag wrong ones along just in case you run out.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 9,045

2nd August 2022, 03:02 PM	#34
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 20,593	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy Every time, I swear. The moon doesn't have micro-gravity. It has the regular kind, just less of it. There's an up and a down. Ear canals and ceiling fans will work. That's very different from a microgravity environment. Space colonization is going to face enough possibly-insurmountable problems not to have to drag wrong ones along just in case you run out. I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means. There IS one single kind of gravity: the GR kind. Less of it is the whole problem.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

2nd August 2022, 03:06 PM	#35
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	Originally Posted by HansMustermann I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means. There IS one single kind of gravity: the GR kind. Less of it is the whole problem. Microgravity is the current pedantic term for what we previously called zero g. Lunar gravity is substantially greater than that. Biological processes that depend on gravity get some help from the moon, but none at all from the microgravity measured on the ISS and elsewhere in the solar system.
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2nd August 2022, 03:52 PM	#36
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 20,593	However you wish to name any given percentage of 1g, the problem is that we have doubts if even Mars 0.38g gravity is enough to keep you healthy over a long enough time. The cut-off, as far as anyone knows at the moment seems to be around 0.4g for stuff to start getting measurably worse over time. Below 0.4g it's considered that both cardio-pulmonary and musculo-skeletal properties start going south.(Source, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tematic_Review ) I suppose that on Mars we might get away with it, at least for a while, if you force everyone to exercise every day. Moon's 0.16g is almost universally considered not enough. Just nope. We're no longer talking about being 5% under that minimum and maybe we can just fudge it for a few years at a time like on Mars. We're talking about being 2.5 TIMES below that minimum. So, basically, sure, name it whatever you wish, but the main issue is that there just isn't enough of it. Arguing about how to call it, won't change the fact that it's just not good for your health.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? Last edited by HansMustermann; 2nd August 2022 at 04:12 PM.

2nd August 2022, 04:26 PM	#37
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,194	I just wish to use the the established, industry standard names. If you want to talk about low gravity, talk about low gravity. Don't talk about microgravity and then insist it counts as low gravity. It doesn't.
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2nd August 2022, 04:47 PM	#38
BowlOfRed Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 2,164	Originally Posted by HansMustermann I'm curious WTH do you think microgravity means. An environment where you can commonly measure acceleration between 0g and 0.000001g. That should be true for the ISS outside of powered events (boosts, attitude changes, etc.)