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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Exactly. Nobody (including yourself) can come up with anything even mildly transphobic said or done by Rowling.

I'll note here that I[m equally certain Rowling isn't transphobic.

Her support of Parker is not a good look, however.

On reflection, I only mess with posting on ISF, and am still waiting for a good old death threat.
I guess I just don't matter enough.

Wrong places, mate. I used to get a couple a week. I had one guy go all godfather on me and ask why I didn't show him respect.

Try questioning treaty settlements, asking about Hone Harawira's racism, or even better, his dead mum's violent history.

You'll get plenty.

A question for Cooky and Atheist.
Are these ambulance chasers or good Samaritans?

Neither, they're publicity-seeking shysters.

At the very worst the perpetrator is facing diversion and there's no way the cops are going to charge them anyway. Waste of resources apart from the questionable "assault" premise.

Under NZ law, to be an assault it has this meaning:

assault means the act of intentionally applying or attempting to apply force to the person of another, directly or indirectly, or threatening by any act or gesture to apply such force to the person of another, if the person making the threat has, or causes the other to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she has, present ability to effect his or her purpose; and to assault has a corresponding meaning

Applying force? Nope. The sauce was tipped.

Threatening? Nope.

Parker could claim she thought an assault was a reasonable interpretation, but the Crown isn't going to waste time on that tactic and she's not coming back to testify.
 
I recall there was even a death on this forum (or it's predecessor,. I don't remember). It morphed straight into a discussion of how the guy got the physics of the death threat all wrong.
 
I recall there was even a death on this forum (or it's predecessor,. I don't remember). It morphed straight into a discussion of how the guy got the physics of the death threat all wrong.

Wait... a member of this forum was given a death threat, and then subsequently murdered by the person who threatened them!?
 
I was not talking about Posie Parker.

Steadfastly, too. That would explain why you completely ignored when I pointed out that Rowling was tweeting/retweeting her just a day or two ago, when I was responding to your question about what she’s said that I consider transphobic.

Do you not recognize the connection that they are on the same page when it comes to trans issues?
 
So would I be correct to think that your preferred "solution" is to ban trans women and trans girls from all competitive sport at every level (from primary school sports days upwards)?
Well, of course it's not a question of "banning" transwomen or girls from competitive sport, but one of deciding which category they should participate in.

My view is that where sport is segregated by sex, that should refer to biological sex rather than gender. It seems to me one of the clearest-cut issues in this whole debate: sport is segregated by sex due to physical, biological differences between males and females - more specifically, due to physical advantages males have over females. How could it ever make sense to allow someone who is biologically male to compete in the opposite sex category simply because they identify as someone of the opposite sex, despite remaining biologically male?

In terms of whether it should start at “primary school sports days”, or at what point segregation should start, that's a difficult question. There's a strong argument that male sporting advantage only fully emerges at puberty, and so segregating sports by sex is less important at primary school level. Of course that's an argument for no segregation at all, not for allowing transgirls of primary school age to compete with girls. I'm also very uncomfortable with the whole idea of labelling kids of primary school age "trans". So at primary school level it's complicated, and honestly I'm not sure - perhaps sport should be more mixed at that level than it in fact is (as a young kid I know I was always much more interested in playing cricket and rugby than netball and rounders, so I dare say at that age I'd have welcomed that!).

However from high school level onwards, when puberty starts to kick in, then yes, I do think that where sport is segregated by sex, it should be by biological sex.

In general, I think the most elegant solution would be to have a women's category and an open category in most sports (except where safety is an issue - a caveat which itself acknowledges male physical advantage). Transwomen and any biological women who wished to do so could compete in the open category alongside men, while the women's category would be reserved for natal females. It's a solution which is already being explored in some sports: even my local sports centre has an open squash league and a women's squash league, and some of the women do indeed choose to play in the open league.

It won't. Thankfully.

(Except, of course, where there are obvious matters related to physical injury in contact sports, eg contact forms of rugby)

Perhaps not. As I said in my earlier post, what struck me as especially significant in the World Athletics announcement was the reversal of the principle that transwomen should be able to compete in the female category until it's proven they have an advantage, to one in which they're not allowed to compete until it's shown they don't have an advantage. In other words, they're presumed by default to have an advantage.

But we shall see.
 
Can anyone give me any example of an impact on life it would have if sex wasn't "real", (whatever it means)?
I'm just addressing the highlighted part for now, but here is what I think it means. If you believe, as the ACLU does, that sex is superseded by identity, then same-sex attraction is meaningless and Lia Thomas is correct to identify as a lesbian.
 
I'm just addressing the highlighted part for now, but here is what I think it means. If you believe, as the ACLU does, that sex is superseded by identity, then same-sex attraction is meaningless ...
If that were so then opposite sex attraction would also be meaningless.
...and Lia Thomas is correct to identify as a lesbian.
Anybody is allowed to call themselves anything. There aren't any rules. But if you use the term lesbian to refer to a biological woman attracted to a biological woman then she isn't a lesbian. Incidentally, I know plenty of biological women attracted to biological women who hate the term "lesbian" for it's soft porn associations and prefer "gay woman"

And you are attracted to who you are attracted to no matter what labels you use. I would have had a youthful crush on Robert Redford whether or not it was called same sex attraction. I would have had a youthful crush on Suzie Quatro whether or not it was called opposite sex attraction. It would have made no difference. It's attraction.

If anyone is wedded to the term "same-sex attraction" then no-one is stopping them using it. Personally I just call them all attraction. Being in love with a biological male and being in love with a biological female are both just love. Why make the distinction?

But if people want to make the distinction they still can They're just labels.
 
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Now Israel is clamping down on women, alongside Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and gender activists in the West.
I hope women fight back. Women are adult female humans, and it is essential they are never defeated by adult male humans with their massive physical strength advantage. Men will never be women.
 
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Being in love with a biological male and being in love with a biological female are both just love. Why make the distinction?
Presumably because it makes life a bit easier, which is why we label other objects, such as when we distinguish between things which are inedible and things which are edible. Women seeking women might want to distinguish themselves from, say, women seeking men, since they've acquired a different relational, romantic, and sexual skill set.

Sent from my Albany Primo using Tapatalk
 
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That merely repeats what the act states, and the use of the word "force" needs to be highlighted. The act of tipping uses no force at all.

Not only is there zero chance of the police prosecuting the case, I don't believe the courts would hear it.
________________

And just for the edification of the anti-trans people, I trust you realise you're pawns in a religious struggle and can figure out which side the religious right is on.

https://www.motherjones.com/politic...e-ban-legislation-bill-minors-children-lgbtq/
 
That merely repeats what the act states, and the use of the word "force" needs to be highlighted.
As the link says, "An assault can include very minor force."

The act of tipping uses no force at all.
Any high school physics student could tell you it takes a non-zero amount of force to make anything into a projectile, and any 1L could tell you that throwing an object at someone may constitute assault.

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The act of tipping uses no force at all.
Any high school physics student could tell you it takes a non-zero amount of force to make anything into a projectile

True, but the problem is more fundamental than that. It isn't the force required to tip the jar which is relevant, it's the force of the contents hitting the victim. Yes, that force is small, but it's not zero. That makes it assault. Police may decide not to prosecute, but 1) that doesn't make it not a crime, and more importantly, 2) that doesn't make it acceptable behavior. It is a crime, and it's not acceptable behavior.
 
More detail emerges about this individual who committed a vile assault.
One must have sympathy at a fundamental level, since they were medicated and operated on at the age of 8. This detail further harms the cause of trans activists in my view. It is understandable at one level that they would strongly object to Posie Parker twisting the knife in a wound over which they had no control.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/1316...tivist-who-threw-tomato-juice-on-posie-parker

From a link within:

The intersex community needs protection from traumatic infant surgeries, advocate Eli Rubashkyn says.
 
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Presumably because it makes life a bit easier, which is why we label other objects, such as when we distinguish between things which are inedible and things which are edible. Women seeking women might want to distinguish themselves from, say, women seeking men, since they've acquired a different relational, romantic, and sexual skill set.

Sent from my Albany Primo using Tapatalk
So you.when a man falls in love with a man it is a different form of love than when a man falls in love with a woman?
 
So you.when a man falls in love with a man it is a different form of love than when a man falls in love with a woman?
I've no way of knowing the answer to this but (IIRC) we were talking about JKR's reference to "same sex attraction" rather than romantic love more generally.

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Uhh... well, you know her very opening gambit, when she stated that only (cis) women* can menstruate? That bit, for example.

* Because some trans men menstruate as well. And in denying the notion that some trans men also menstruate, she literally is denying that transgender identity is a real thing.

No, she isn't, even if you produced such a quote.

JKR would hardly deny that some trans men also menstruate because trans men are by definition biological women, and thus included within the term women whether they like it or not, until such time as gender affirmative medical care causes them to cease to menstruate.

At which point not menstruating is a direct affirmation of their chosen gender identity as a trans man, whereas for other trans men, continuing to menstruate will undoubtedly be experienced as gender dysphoria.

The experience of gender dysphoria is not the same as a 'denial of transgender identity'. Some people don't like talking about bodily functions, their reasons for this will be quite diverse. Some of the reasons might include religious identities, but it's not going to be a 'denial of identity' if the rest of society continues to refer to things that minorities dislike, when they don't involve insults. Unless you agree with misogynists that 'women' is an insulting word.

Conversely, "trans women are women" is immediately refuted by the statement 'only women can menstruate', since trans women are by definition biological men, who cannot menstruate.

True, a minority of trans women have deeply involved fantasies about tampons, periods and menstruation. Such fantasists very much want to be women, believe they are women, so it's a mystery why 'only women can menstruate' should be ruled a denial of transgender identity, when Dylan Mulvaney gets tampon sponsorship deals.
 
I've no way of knowing the answer to this but (IIRC) we were talking about JKR's reference to "same sex attraction" rather than romantic love more generally.

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Then you quoted the wrong part of my post. You quoted the part about being.in love. That some people might think they are different is a very good reason not to make a distinction between same sex romantic attraction and opposite sex romantic attraction. I'm sure you don't think that one is superior to the other, but some people do think that.

If the problem is one of getting someone home and finding the wrong sort of plumbing then I still don't see the problem. 99.99% of the world (including 99.99% of trans women) knows that a gay woman, in general, is attracted to biological women and 99.99% of the world don't think that a lesbian should feel pressured to have sex with someone she doesn't want to. No-one should.

Anyone pressure in this direction should be condemned.
 
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Not all trans women are wedded to the idea that trans women are women, in fact it may be that most are not and are quite relaxed about the distinction.
 
As the link says, "An assault can include very minor force."

It is a crime, and it's not acceptable behavior.

If you guys try to split that hair any thinner you'll lose it entirely.

Since you both live in a country where it's every person's god-given right to carry a firearm, I'm just going to smile at the level of stupidity required to insist that tipping sauce on someone with force you'd need a physicist to quantify is an assault.

For christ's sake, neither of you go to a beach any time - some kid might splash you and you'll need to call the cops.

More detail emerges about this individual who committed a vile assault.

And again.

"Vile assault"

Laughable.
 
Conversely, "trans women are women" is immediately refuted by the statement 'only women can menstruate', since trans women are by definition biological men, who cannot menstruate.
I believe you are committing the fallacy of denying the antecedent here.
 
Has there been any agreement on how to define "woman"?

Without that there can be no resolution to this debate.
 
Not all trans women are wedded to the idea that trans women are women, in fact it may be that most are not and are quite relaxed about the distinction.

Mate, you're not allowed to introduce reality and facts as a means of debate.

Nobody actually has any idea what percentage of trans women seek to walk the furthest path of womanhood. Unfortunately, only those like the thing who tried to sue a beauty therapist for not giving it a Brazilian make the news.

Trans I know and have known, especially those who retain a penis, have no interest in that kind of behaviour and only want access to women's bathrooms to rightly protect themselves against men. They would no more commit a sexual assault on women than fly to the moon.

So, will you please get back to concentrating on the outliers and perverted males who want to exploit their new-found freedom.

TIA
 
A little internet search shows that a "woman" is a female human being.

And the definition of "female" is "of the sex that can produce offspring and produce eggs".

Based on those definitions, trans women are not women.

According to which definition of "woman", are trans women "women"?
 
Then you quoted the wrong part of my post. You quoted the part about being in love.
Here is a more complete quotation of that post:
If anyone is wedded to the term "same-sex attraction" then no-one is stopping them using it. Personally I just call them all attraction. Being in love with a biological male and being in love with a biological female are both just love. Why make the distinction?
I tried to explain that sometimes it is worthwhile to make the distinction, for example, if you were trying to create (or patronize) a dating website/app. Or, for another example, if you were trying to build political solidarity among those who experience same-sex attraction for the sake of pushing for legal equality.

99.99% of the world don't think that a lesbian should feel pressured to have sex with someone she doesn't want to.
Did you happen to catch the discussion of "cotton ceiling" activism upthread? Pretty sure it was on point.
 
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Not all trans women are wedded to the idea that trans women are women, in fact it may be that most are not and are quite relaxed about the distinction.

Some trans women disagree fundamentally with gender identity ideology. I know several. They tend to get labelled as 'self-hating trans' by activists.
 
The footage of the SJW punching the glasses off the face of an elderly woman (and sending her to ER, apparently) might be shocking, but it's clearly an aberration and unworthy of coverage by ABC/CBC/MSNBC ad nauseam.

Although I don't know, it kind of reminds me of Eric Clanton.
 
Has there been any agreement on how to define "woman"?

Without that there can be no resolution to this debate.
Most words suit their purpose fine without a strict unambiguous definition. For example "man" as in someone saying "you are not a man" to an adult human male does not mean "adult human male".
 
Since you both live in a country where it's every person's god-given right to carry a firearm, I'm just going to smile at the level of stupidity required to insist that tipping sauce on someone with force you'd need a physicist to quantify is an assault.
You've inadvertently made an interesting point here. Part of the point of the tort of assault at common law was to provide legal recourse in lieu of "dueling and other illegal forms of self-help" which were surprisingly popular ways to deal with minor indignities to the person.
 
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Since you both live in a country where it's every person's god-given right to carry a firearm, I'm just going to smile at the level of stupidity required to insist that tipping sauce on someone with force you'd need a physicist to quantify is an assault.

We have produced numerous sources laying out the legal definition of assault in New Zealand, and they all indicate that that qualifies. It is a separate question whether or not police would prosecute, but it absolutely qualifies, and an argument from incredulity (which is all you've offered) doesn't constitute any sort of rebuttal.
 
The footage of the SJW punching the glasses off the face of an elderly woman (and sending her to ER, apparently) might be shocking, but it's clearly an aberration and unworthy of coverage by ABC/CBC/MSNBC ad nauseam.

Although I don't know, it kind of reminds me of Eric Clanton.
Also having trouble finding a reference to it. To you have a link to details?
 
The footage of the SJW punching the glasses off the face of an elderly woman (and sending her to ER, apparently) might be shocking, but it's clearly an aberration and unworthy of coverage by ABC/CBC/MSNBC ad nauseam.

Although I don't know, it kind of reminds me of Eric Clanton.
I couldn't find it in the Fox coverage either.

Or on the Australian Sky News our equivalent of Fox News
 
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A little internet search shows that a "woman" is a female human being.

And the definition of "female" is "of the sex that can produce offspring and produce eggs".

Based on those definitions, trans women are not women.

According to which definition of "woman", are trans women "women"?

None of them - have a look at the title of the thread.

We have produced numerous sources laying out the legal definition of assault in New Zealand, and they all indicate that that qualifies.

No, you've given your opinion on whether it qualifies. The decision on whether it does or not is up to the Crown Law Office.

It is a separate question whether or not police would prosecute, but it absolutely qualifies, and an argument from incredulity (which is all you've offered) doesn't constitute any sort of rebuttal.

I don't feel the need to rebut stupidity.
 
Wait... a member of this forum was given a death threat, and then subsequently murdered by the person who threatened them!?

No. Just the threat, followed by a discussion of the implied physics in the wording of the threat.

I will try to find it.
 
We have produced numerous sources laying out the legal definition of assault in New Zealand, and they all indicate that that qualifies. It is a separate question whether or not police would prosecute, but it absolutely qualifies, and an argument from incredulity (which is all you've offered) doesn't constitute any sort of rebuttal.

Only actual battery and bodily harm is anything we need to be concerned about when it comes to neo-nazis, but even then ...
 
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