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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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The Atheist said:
I didn't at any stage suggest anyone had.

Maybe you need to re-read it.



I have no interest in what TRA wants, or who they even are, and your suggestion is facile to say the least.

Other mammals seem to manage fine without sex segregation, and Jonathan Swift pointed out 300 years ago the stupidity of it all.
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That is the point.
You add symbolic language to animals and you will get the evil we manage to perpetrate.
Swift saw man as evil, horses as benign.
 
Myriad said:
Yes you can, in the U.S. You can vote Republican.

I think girls and women should have the right to abortion, and the right not to be confined in prisons with convicts who have fully functional male genitalia. Support both rights and you almost certainly (barring other major problems with your politics) have my vote. Make me choose one or the other and I'll, well, choose one or the other.
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Don't be ridiculous. Transgenderism would need decades to approach even a fraction of the harm the Party of Jebus has done by following the precepts of a literal fairy tale. It's frankly a drop in the bucket compared to that. A literal fairy tale.
 
The Atheist said:
Other mammals seem to manage fine without sex segregation, and Jonathan Swift pointed out 300 years ago the stupidity of it all.
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What you mean like the several different species of mammal that form herds that are exclusively females and children, with the exception of a few males allowed to show up during mating season?
 
Olmstead said:
Don't be ridiculous. Transgenderism would need decades to approach even a fraction of the harm the Party of Jebus has done by following the precepts of a literal fairy tale. It's frankly a drop in the bucket compared to that. A literal fairy tale.
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Don't worry, it's in its infancy. The Party of Jebus didn't really hit its stride until it had a solid 1000 years under its belt. At 20 years into their faith, the Jebuses were really just a group of weirdos, the True Faith of Gender has already surpassed them!
 
Matthew Best said:
How do you quantify "managing fine" here?
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Nature red in tooth and claw. The strong prey on the weak. Everyone leaves their weakest behind, to succumb to the elements, or just to buy time for an escape. Dolphins indulge in behaviors that would be called rape and murder if humans behaved that way. Lionesses do all the work in the pride, while the lion asserts dominance, takes naps, and murders any contenders to the throne. Cuckoos practice forced abortions and a creepy child adoption scam that would be horrific by the standards of human society.

Isn't there an insect that infiltrates a frog and consumes its mass to feed its offspring? The corporation has nothing on the ruthless exploitation of the animal kingdom.

One wonders how a female wildebeest who identifies as male would fare. One concludes that such maddened outliers would be culled quite early, in evolutionary time.

Which brings us to the present moment. An artificial energy surplus tricks us into thinking we can afford any number of evolutionary dead ends. But what is the far future of humanity?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Don't worry, it's in its infancy. The Party of Jebus didn't really hit its stride until it had a solid 1000 years under its belt. At 20 years into their faith, the Jebuses were really just a group of weirdos, the True Faith of Gender has already surpassed them!
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Well, I don't see it. Religion is far more insidious than this could ever be and has far wider consequences. If this compels someone to vote Republican, they were already on the fence about a lot of the other Republican baggage. Especially with the abortion mess. None of this comes even close to balancing the scales.
 
Olmstead said:
Well, I don't see it. Religion is far more insidious than this could ever be and has far wider consequences. If this compels someone to vote Republican, they were already on the fence about a lot of the other Republican baggage. Especially with the abortion mess. None of this comes even close to balancing the scales.
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Give it time. Women’s sports have already been compromised (which few in this thread seem to care about) and women are forced to share prison space with biological males. This has happened in the proverbial blink of an eye.
 
Olmstead said:
Well, I don't see it. Religion is far more insidious than this could ever be and has far wider consequences. If this compels someone to vote Republican, they were already on the fence about a lot of the other Republican baggage. Especially with the abortion mess. None of this comes even close to balancing the scales.
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For some, pushing the "Transwomen are Women" agenda IS already a religion.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Don't worry, it's in its infancy. The Party of Jebus didn't really hit its stride until it had a solid 1000 years under its belt. At 20 years into their faith, the Jebuses were really just a group of weirdos, the True Faith of Gender has already surpassed them!
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But things move faster nowadays. Many things get old in a generation. The kids at the receiving end of the genderist indoctrination will abandon that b.s. when they are old enough. In 10 or 20 years time those pink color hairdos will be regarded as a ridiculous fad. A bit like in the nineties we saw eighties colorful fashions and trends as ridiculous, and the reaction was a return to sobriety in dress and habits.

---

Anyway, reporting from Spain, it´s been just a couple of months since our self-id law was passed, and the news items and debates have followed a very familiar pattern for me (having followed this thread for a while), rehashing all the tired old arguments back and forth, the terfs pointing out the looming dangers , the accusations of transfobia, the "anecdotes" of blokes taking advantage of the laws in prisons etc. and so on. There have been political consequences. We have just had local elections, which have meant such a debacle for the far-left party "Podemos" (who have made trans laws and similar other voter-alienating crap their main focus) that new general elections have been called for July. (Podemos was in power in coalition with center-left PSOE but the fall of Podemos has made PSOE wish to disentangle themselves from them. Textbook "get woke get broke"). So when the elections are over we shall see what happens with self-id laws...
 
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Emily's Cat said:
What you mean like the several different species of mammal that form herds that are exclusively females and children, with the exception of a few males allowed to show up during mating season?
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Added to which the females are allowed to fight back if they aren't interested without fear of censure - and if they happen to cripple the male with a well placed hoof, too bad...
 
Abooga said:
But things move faster nowadays. Many things get old in a generation. The kids at the receiving end of the genderist indoctrination will abandon that b.s. when they are old enough. In 10 or 20 years time those pink color hairdos will be regarded as a ridiculous fad. A bit like in the nineties we saw eighties colorful fashions and trends as ridiculous, and the reaction was a return to sobriety in dress and habits.

Anyway, reporting from Spain, it´s been just a couple of months since our self-id law was passed, and the news items and debates have followed a very familiar pattern for me (having followed this thread for a while), rehashing all the tired old arguments back and forth, the terfs pointing out the looming dangers , the accusations of transfobia, the "anecdotes" of blokes taking advantage of the laws in prisons etc. and so on. There have been political consequences. We have just had local elections, which have meant such a debacle for the far-left party "Podemos" (who have made trans laws and similar other voter-alienating crap their main focus) that new general elections have been called for July. (Podemos was in power in coalition with center-left PSOE but the fall of Podemos has made PSOE wish to disentangle themselves from them. Textbook "get woke get broke"). So when the elections are over we shall see what happens with self-id laws...
Click to expand...
New Zealand similar with self ID going live on June 16 no wussy
changing gender here, straight to full sex, can't recall is that seahorse or clownfish, but the debate is dead because all mps were fast followers of fashion and swallowed hook line and sinker.
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Samson said:
New Zealand similar with self ID going live on June 16 no wussy
changing gender here, straight to full sex, can't recall is that seahorse or clownfish, but the debate is dead because all mps were fast followers of fashion and swallowed hook line and sinker.
---
Click to expand...

In Spain the main conservative party (PP) expressed some intentions to at least modify the trans law so if they get elected we may see some of that (especially if they have to pact with far-right party VOX who are quite vociferously against it...).

Since self-id makes it so easy, there have been quite a few cases of guys who legally transitioned, which makes a lot of sense here since we are currently living in a matriarchy, where women are above men legally. I would do it too (it can save you from a malicious "gender violence" accusation for example) but I suspect the law won´t last, and I´m not particularly at risk, so it´s better to wait and see.

For example, if you´re married and thinking of divorcing, it would be stupid not to change legal sex it as soon as possible. The law here incentivises accusations of gender violence because women have a lot to win and nothing to lose. Once you´re legally a woman the law would at least not be weighed against you.
 
Abooga said:
In Spain the main conservative party (PP) expressed some intentions to at least modify the trans law so if they get elected we may see some of that (especially if they have to pact with far-right party VOX who are quite vociferously against it...).

Since self-id makes it so easy, there have been quite a few cases of guys who legally transitioned, which makes a lot of sense here since we are currently living in a matriarchy, where women are above men legally. I would do it too (it can save you from a malicious "gender violence" accusation for example) but I suspect the law won´t last, and I´m not particularly at risk, so it´s better to wait and see.

For example, if you´re married and thinking of divorcing, it would be stupid not to change legal sex it as soon as possible. The law here incentivises accusations of gender violence because women have a lot to win and nothing to lose. Once you´re legally a woman the law would at least not be weighed against you.
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I had a few similar thoughts but struggle to sport a full furry beard so might not be perceived as a proper woman.
 
Matthew Best said:
How do you quantify "managing fine" here?
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They've developed hierarchies that seem to work pretty well. Elephants and hyenas are led by females, lions by males.

Samson said:
Swift saw man as evil, horses as benign.
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He was right.

Emily's Cat said:
What you mean like the several different species of mammal that form herds that are exclusively females and children, with the exception of a few males allowed to show up during mating season?
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Exactly that.

If women are happier without men, they can create a society without one. Wolfman used to post details about a sect in China that was matriarchal and worked out ok.

Ever notice how the most evil men attract women? Charles Manson had women falling at his feet. It's not as black and white as you seem to think.
 
Samson said:
I had a few similar thoughts but struggle to sport a full furry beard so might not be perceived as a proper woman.
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That´s not an isssue. Legally, if you say you perceive yourself as a woman, you are one. Full stop. Beard, no beard, that´s beside the point. Like Spanish youtuber Roma Gallardo, who did it tongue in cheek in order to denounce the utter silliness of the thing:
images
 
Ziggurat said:
I should have said no good evidence. Yeah, there's some evidence. But it's crap.

I can't access the full text through your link, but I found it here:

https://escholarship.org/content/qt4rs4n6h0/qt4rs4n6h0_noSplash_8740e92d7f24b6c89dbd4bd4d27fbbcb.pdf

Look at table 3. For localities that passed gender inclusive policies, the reported crime rate went from 0 incidents per year before implementing those policies to 0.5 incidents per year after implementing those policies. And you expect to be able to say anything of value from such small numbers? At most that sets an upper limit on the size of any effect, but only in those areas, only for incidents that would be reported to police, and only over the short time interval after policy implementation.

That data is garbage.
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You're always going to be dealing with small numbers when it comes to trans people, they are a quite small segment of the population.

This study is pretty old, and there are plenty of places that have adopted such policies over the years since the reactionaries first began screaming about the imminent bathroom crime wave that would result.

Surely you can find some evidence to support the notion that these inclusive policies result in an increase in antisocial or criminal behavior in these segregated spaces.
 
Abooga said:
That´s not an isssue. Legally, if you say you perceive yourself as a woman, you are one. Full stop. Beard, no beard, that´s beside the point. Like Spanish youtuber Roma Gallardo, who did it tongue in cheek in order to denounce the utter silliness of the thing:
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Smells like a troll bait, but I'm kinda bored. Can't read Spanish so can you summarize what amount of facial hair on a woman makes it silly in Romas mind? Is there some trim that is a no-go? Are sideburns ok? Is it only relevant to facial hair or all body hair? Is she some Spanish version of Andrew Tate? What if they shave? Gillette, the new tool to become woman?

I don't think the position of has beard != woman is a working one.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
You're always going to be dealing with small numbers when it comes to trans people, they are a quite small segment of the population.
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A small segment of a fairly small population under consideration:
d4m10n said:
The sample size is even smaller that it may appear at first, since Boston, Cambridge, Chelsea, Marblehead, Milton, Revere, Salem, & Somerville were excluded from the matched pairs analyses, leaving only three GIPANDO municipalities in the data set for matched locality (1).

If I'm reading Table 3 correctly, there was only one qualifying incident over a four year time span in the localities with GIPANDOs, which have a total population of 80,645
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That is a smaller reference population than the City of Edmond (Oklahoma) which is small enough that you probably haven't heard of it, and yet you seemed fairly confident in extrapolating a null result from this study to the population as a whole.

(Not to mention the broader methodological issues with using matched pairs instead of before and after, which means the entire study can be absolutely brimming with uncontrolled confounding variables.)

TurkeysGhost said:
Surely you can find some evidence to support the notion that these inclusive policies result in an increase in antisocial or criminal behavior in these segregated spaces.
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If you mean formerly sex-segregated spaces, here you go: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12893428&postcount=1542
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
Surely you can find some evidence to support the notion that these inclusive policies result in an increase in antisocial or criminal behavior in these segregated spaces.
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We have. You just dismiss it each time because it's not put in a peer reviewed article with statistical analysis and error bars. You'll believe that uncritically because it's got a patina of authority, whereas individual stories don't have an academic stamp of approval.

But I can see a pattern. Everyone can see the pattern.
 
Ziggurat said:
We have. You just dismiss it each time because it's not put in a peer reviewed article with statistical analysis and error bars. You'll believe that uncritically because it's got a patina of authority, whereas individual stories don't have an academic stamp of approval.

But I can see a pattern. Everyone can see the pattern.
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"We can see a pattern in our hand-selected anecdotes" is the kind of rigorous analysis that is common among those motivated by prejudice. Does Breitbart still run their "Black Crime" news ticker?
 
If it is bigotry to not see trans-women as actual women, is it an act of bigotry for a straight male to not want to date a trans-woman?
 
TurkeysGhost said:
"We can see a pattern in our hand-selected anecdotes" is the kind of rigorous analysis that is common among those motivated by prejudice. Does Breitbart still run their "Black Crime" news ticker?
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I'm not sure you thought your example through. Statistics show that black crime rates really are higher.
 
Hercules56 said:
If it is bigotry to not see trans-women as actual women, is it an act of bigotry for a straight male to not want to date a trans-woman?
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Oddly (or perhaps not), I've been hearing more complaints that it's an act of bigotry for lesbians to not want to date transwomen.
 
Ziggurat said:
Oddly (or perhaps not), I've been hearing more complaints that it's an act of bigotry for lesbians to not want to date transwomen.
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Interesting.

Lesbians clearly only want to date fellow women.

Their rejection of a transwoman, is seen as an act of bigotry?

Very interesting. Why are those lesbians being soo bigoted?
 
Bigotry for lesbians to reject transwomen?

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...nary-old-animosities-boil-public-view-n958456

Its come to my attention a fascinating phenomenon: conflict between the Lesbian and Transgender communities. Some Lesbians feel the recent focus on transgender issues and rights has diminished their own struggles and push for justice and equality. Another issue is whether or not is indeed an act of BIGOTRY for a Lesbian to reject the sexual advances of a transwoman or not want to date transwomen, out of the view that they are in fact NOT women.

Is it bigoted for a lesbian or straight man to reject the sexual advances of transwomen, and reject the idea of dating transwomen, due to the belief that they are in fact not really women?
 
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bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

I guess it will come down to whether you think it's unreasonable or not, because the latter part of that sentence definitely applies.
 
Resentment about where social attention is directed is understandable but misguided.

As to whether it is bigotry to not reciprocate advances from a person you're not attracted to is an absurd premise.

Who or what a person is attracted to (or not) is their own personal journey.

Nobody is owed reciprocation based on any identity claimed.

I think anyone who is targeted by that kind of emotional manipulation is well advised to run fast and far, sounds like a well-practiced sociopath.

TL;DR: none of this is really about lesbians or trans. Just a display of awful behaviors found anywhere.
 
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Matthew Best said:
bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

I guess it will come down to whether you think it's unreasonable or not, because the latter part of that sentence definitely applies.
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I don't think group membership is the membership lesbians object to.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Resentment about where social attention is directed is understandable but misguided.

As to whether it is bigotry to not reciprocate advances from a person you're not attracted to is an absurd premise.

Who or what a person is attracted to (or not) is their own personal journey.

Nobody is owed reciprocation based on any identity claimed.

I think anyone who is targeted by that kind of emotional manipulation is well advised to run fast and far, sounds like a well-practiced sociopath.

TL;DR: none of this is really about lesbians or trans. Just a display of awful behaviors found anywhere.
Click to expand...

What if a Lesbian has a stated and consistent policy that they will simply not entertain any sexual advances or overtures from a transgender woman, as they do not accept transgender women to be actual women? Is that bigotry?
 
Hercules56 said:
Some Lesbians feel the recent focus on transgender issues and rights has diminished their own struggles and push for justice and equality.
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"Some" is an odd word choice, often designating a small proportion of the whole. What other positions do the rest of the lesbians take?


Hercules56 said:
Another issue is whether or not is indeed an act of BIGOTRY for a Lesbian to reject the sexual advances of a transwoman or not want to date transwomen, out of the view that they are in fact NOT women.
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Who is saying this? The same "Some Lesbians"?
 
Upchurch said:
"Some" is an odd word choice, often designating a small proportion of the whole. What other positions do the rest of the lesbians take?



Who is saying this? The same "Some Lesbians"?
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That's not the issue. The issue is, is it an act of bigotry for a lesbian to reject the concept of dating a transwoman because they believe transwoman are not true women?
 
theprestige said:
Nature red in tooth and claw. The strong prey on the weak. Everyone leaves their weakest behind, to succumb to the elements, or just to buy time for an escape. Dolphins indulge in behaviors that would be called rape and murder if humans behaved that way. Lionesses do all the work in the pride, while the lion asserts dominance, takes naps, and murders any contenders to the throne. Cuckoos practice forced abortions and a creepy child adoption scam that would be horrific by the standards of human society.

Isn't there an insect that infiltrates a frog and consumes its mass to feed its offspring? The corporation has nothing on the ruthless exploitation of the animal kingdom.

One wonders how a female wildebeest who identifies as male would fare. One concludes that such maddened outliers would be culled quite early, in evolutionary time.

Which brings us to the present moment. An artificial energy surplus tricks us into thinking we can afford any number of evolutionary dead ends. But what is the far future of humanity?
Click to expand...

Have you ever heard of freemartins?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemartin
 
Hercules56 said:
That's not the issue. The issue is, is it an act of bigotry for a lesbian to reject the concept of dating a transwoman because they believe transwoman are not true women?
Click to expand...

It's an issue to whom, though?

It does matter, especially in a world of manufactured outrage and moral panics.
 
Hercules56 said:
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...nary-old-animosities-boil-public-view-n958456

Its come to my attention a fascinating phenomenon: conflict between the Lesbian and Transgender communities. Some Lesbians feel the recent focus on transgender issues and rights has diminished their own struggles and push for justice and equality. Another issue is whether or not is indeed an act of BIGOTRY for a Lesbian to reject the sexual advances of a transwoman or not want to date transwomen, out of the view that they are in fact NOT women.

Is it bigoted for a lesbian or straight man to reject the sexual advances of transwomen, and reject the idea of dating transwomen, due to the belief that they are in fact not really women?
Click to expand...

Yes. Next leading question, please.
 
Okay, one article linked by the OP article is this: Not in our name

Following further vitriolic attacks on trans people in our media, the world’s leading publications for lesbians.

[snip] We do not think supporting trans women erases our lesbian identities; rather we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

We strongly condemn writers and editors who seek to foster division and hate within the LGBTQI community with trans misogynistic content, and who believe “lesbian” is an identity for them alone to define. We condemn male-owned media companies who profit from the traffic generated by these controversies.

[snip]

As the leading publications for queer women, we believe it is our responsibility to call out scaremongering conspiracy theories levelled at the trans community, and make it clear that DIVA, Curve, Autostraddle, LOTL, Tagg, Lez Spread The Word, DapperQ, GO Magazine and LezWatch.TV will always be safe spaces for the trans community.
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I think its absurd to accuse straight men or lesbian women of bigotry, because they refuse to date transwomen.
 
Hercules56 said:
Is it bigoted for a lesbian or straight man to reject the sexual advances of transwomen, and reject the idea of dating transwomen, due to the belief that they are in fact not really women?
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Is it?

Since you started the thread, I suppose you have some stand on this that you intend to argue about instead of spinning around like a merry-go-round.

Define your stance on the issue and good reason why so instead of writing silly one lines ending in a question mark.
 
Hercules56 said:
What if a Lesbian has a stated and consistent policy that they will simply not entertain any sexual advances or overtures from a transgender woman, as they do not accept transgender women to be actual women? Is that bigotry?
Click to expand...
So we have a fabricated quote from a fictitious person who we've been given exactly one form of identity because that is apparently significant and speaks to...something?
 
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