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Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

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Michael Schellenberger and Elon Musk are hammering the nutters on the new Twitter

https://twitter.com/shellenberger/status/1667966065794600961?t=07DNRT1Ocl2RxKSK9Sf3ig&s=19
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Fewer trans women coming down the pike let us pray.

And note that is NOT a trans phobic comment, it is a bleak assessment of the New Zealand promotion of gay kids being converted to trans kids.

California’s State Assembly passed legislation, AB957, last month, which would require that parents “affirm” that their children are the opposite sex under penalty of law. “If you have a seven-year-old,” said the bill’s sponsor, California state Assemblymember Lori Wilson, who is “able to articulate that they believe that they are not the same gender as they are biologically, then it should be affirmed.”

Utter madness! If that same seven year old is "able to articulate that they believe that they are Superman" are you going t let them jump off a ******* hi-rise building?

If the California Senate passes the legislation and Governor Gavin Newsom signs it into law, parents who refuse to affirm their child’s belief that they are the opposite sex could lose custody in a dispute.​

More utter madness.
 
Multiple times across multiple threads related to this topic I've made the following suggestion.

Describe how we determine who goes in which bathroom and in which sporting demarcation BUT you can't use any of the following words. Man, woman, male, female, sex, gender, cis, or trans.

Persons with dicks and transmen in one and persons without dicks in the other. However the women may complain again that they are reduced to non-men.

ETA, had to throw transmen in there, but I see that violates your specification. Eh, so what. Everybody knows that nobody is complaining about transmen in the bathroom, transmen in sports, transmen in prison.
 
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I disagree. On the basis that legal sexes are male and female, I tend to consider those to be biologically based and thus immutable. Or are you suggesting male and female are genders?
I'm saying, not suggesting, that the legal definition of sex is gender. If it weren't, it wouldn't be possible for it to be defined as mutable (in humans) in the first place. It's a social identity. It's certainly informed by people's ideas about what it is, but it is not, itself, sex, nor the biological definition of sex.

The biological definition is developed by biologists for the purposes of doing biology, the study of life as a natural process. The legal definition is defined for the purpose of understanding who we're talking about in the context of a legal text, and the law is inherently normative. Have you ever read the definition of 'animal' in the (US) Animal Welfare Act? It's not something any biologist would sign off on, but then why should it be?

I mean, consider the consequences of defining legal sex as immutable. If there's a clerical error on my birth certificate, I'm stuck with that for the rest of my life? Very little follows about how we should define sex in the law from the nature of sex, because the law is primarily aimed at mediating social outcomes. If a scientific or even lay definition would lead to bad outcomes, don't use it.

But it should be, shouldn't it?
Seems to mean different things to different people, so that's more or less unanswerable.

And now you use the words man and woman as opposed to male and female, yet man and woman are not the words used officially so the "legal" understanding of man and woman are irrelevent.
You think the law isn't capable of understanding what 'man' and 'woman' mean? This is a good example though--the law often defines woman as a human female, because it's more useful to include girls in the definition.

Yep, I'm delegating the legal power to determine (not define)the sex of each individual to medical professionals who are in a position to make accurate determinations. The definition of the sexes male and female have already been long established by the medical profession.
Seems like a bad move on your part, given what activists have been able to accomplish by putting pressure on medical professionals.
 
Wait. You don't see a problem with incarcerating "someone with breasts and a vagina" in a men's prison? Really?
How does it follow from Joe's assertion that such people will be treated as women/female that they should be put in men's prisons?
 
How does it follow from Joe's assertion that such people will be treated as women/female that they should be put in men's prisons?

I don't give a rat's arse whether you think the question "follows" anything. Just answer the ******* question...

Do you have a problem with incarcerating a biological woman, i.e. "someone with breasts and a vagina" in a men's prison?

Its not a loaded question, its a simple one with a yes or no answer - no dodging or chicanery, no hand-waving and no bull-****. You earn the right to elaborate or justify only after you have answered yes or no.
 
I don't give a rat's arse whether you think the question "follows" anything. Just answer the ******* question...
I'm saying I don't understand what Joe was asking.

Do you have a problem with incarcerating a biological woman, i.e. "someone with breasts and a vagina" in a men's prison?
Given no other information (for example, whether such a person even wants to be in a men's prison) I find myself with not enough information to form an opinion. Has that ever happened? I mean, are you imagining a world where transmen are automatically put in men's prisons with no recourse? Or that transmen aren't aware of the relevant dangers?

Its not a loaded question, its a simple one with a yes or no answer - no dodging or chicanery, no hand-waving and no bull-****. You earn the right to elaborate or justify only after you have answered yes or no.
Sorry, you don't get to demand when I stop reserving judgment. This should the skeptical baseline, but here we are.
 
Describe how we determine who goes in which...sporting demarcation BUT you can't use any of the following words. Man, woman, male, female, sex, gender, cis, or trans.
People who lack the SRY gene and/or functional androgen receptors go in the closed category, everyone else goes in the open category.


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I'm saying I don't understand what Joe was asking.


Given no other information (for example, whether such a person even wants to be in a men's prison) I find myself with not enough information to form an opinion. Has that ever happened? I mean, are you imagining a world where transmen are automatically put in men's prisons with no recourse? Or that transmen aren't aware of the relevant dangers?


Sorry, you don't get to demand when I stop reserving judgment. This should the skeptical baseline, but here we are.

So the answer is no, you don't have a problem with it - good to know!

Thanks
 
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California’s State Assembly passed legislation, AB957, last month, which would require that parents “affirm” that their children are the opposite sex under penalty of law. “If you have a seven-year-old,” said the bill’s sponsor, California state Assemblymember Lori Wilson, who is “able to articulate that they believe that they are not the same gender as they are biologically, then it should be affirmed.”

Utter madness! If that same seven year old is "able to articulate that they believe that they are Superman" are you going t let them jump off a ******* hi-rise building?

If the California Senate passes the legislation and Governor Gavin Newsom signs it into law, parents who refuse to affirm their child’s belief that they are the opposite sex could lose custody in a dispute.​

More utter madness.

If this insanity ever comes to my state in Australia, I would seriously consider moving to another state. I have a seven year old grandson, who is bright as a button, but is incapable of rationally deciding (let alone articulating) to become a different gender.
 
California’s State Assembly passed legislation, AB957, last month, which would require that parents “affirm” that their children are the opposite sex under penalty of law. “If you have a seven-year-old,” said the bill’s sponsor, California state Assemblymember Lori Wilson, who is “able to articulate that they believe that they are not the same gender as they are biologically, then it should be affirmed.”

Utter madness! If that same seven year old is "able to articulate that they believe that they are Superman" are you going t let them jump off a ******* hi-rise building?

If the California Senate passes the legislation and Governor Gavin Newsom signs it into law, parents who refuse to affirm their child’s belief that they are the opposite sex could lose custody in a dispute.​

More utter madness.

This is 100% the kind of **** that fuels the groomer madness (and it's 99% madness).
 
If this insanity ever comes to my state in Australia, I would seriously consider moving to another state. I have a seven year old grandson, who is bright as a button, but is incapable of rationally deciding (let alone articulating) to become a different gender.
Talk like that is accelerating.
I wouldn't trust any state school in New Zealand.
 
I'm saying, not suggesting, that the legal definition of sex is gender. If it weren't, it wouldn't be possible for it to be defined as mutable (in humans) in the first place.

You are over-generalising here, as it will vary by legal jurisdiction; UK law is different to Californian law.
 
You are over-generalising here, as it will vary by legal jurisdiction; UK law is different to Californian law.
I'm not talking about the state of law anywhere in particular. It is always true, everywhere, that the law is entirely a function of social facts. It's impossible for it to be otherwise. The law does not have the same aims as science, and is not predicated on the same precepts as science. There's no reason to suppose that legal definitions are, or should be, equivalent to scientific definitions. We can hope that it will be informed by science, but thinking you can just grab a definition from science and plop it into a lawbook and get good results is just naive.

I mean, imagine if the norms of science were such that a measurement of the sex of a human could never be changed, on the grounds that sex is immutable. That's essentially what is being proposed here.
 
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I think the heart of the dispute is about the grounds on which the measurement can be corrected, rather than changed. Mistakes can always be made so the sex assigned at birth could simply be wrong, in which case it can be corrected. But are someone's subjective thoughts and feelings sufficient to correct it, if the objective measurement still gives the same answer?
 
I think the heart of the dispute is about the grounds on which the measurement can be corrected, rather than changed. Mistakes can always be made so the sex assigned at birth could simply be wrong, in which case it can be corrected. But are someone's subjective thoughts and feelings sufficient to correct it, if the objective measurement still gives the same answer?
Well, the dispute was about whether it should be possible to change your legal sex at all. If you think you should be able to change your legal sex with a note from your doctor, you've already strayed significantly from the scientific truth. The relevant fact there is "do you have gender dysphoria" and not "are you the sex you would like to be legally recognized as". Most people who oppose self-id seem to be ok, or at least more ok, with that situation, because they're concerned about the potentially destructive outcomes of permitting self-id to a greater degree than they are about having legal definitions be scientific definitions. There's a tacit acknowledgement that the public reason can result in a different definition because there's a different set of justifications at work. And that's exactly the problem with the lunatic fringes--they don't respect that fact, don't acknowledge that we need shared ground, and won't give an inch. A definition works if we can all live with it and it leads to better outcomes, but not if it leads to bad outcomes. And even thoughtful, rational, evidence-seeking people don't agree on what counts as a good or bad social outcome, so there's necessarily some negotiation involved.

Meanwhile, science (and to at least some degree medicine) isn't really about social outcomes per se. It's about describing things as they actually are. That's what it's good at. That's not what the law is good at, and not even what it's good for.

Personally, self-id looks like small potatoes to me, barely even different from what it generally replaces (like motivated people can't doctor shop). I was far more concerned when one of the most influential Supreme Court justices in recent history revealed that he believed that the devil exists, that he's actively working in the world to make people atheists, that demonic possessions have happened in the past, that the reason they don't happen any more is because the devil got smarter and sneakier, and when confronted with the merest hint of skepticism, took grave offense and pointed out that his interlocutor was out of step with the American public. And then there were his legal ideas....
 
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And right on cue a 14 year old girl is being aggressively affirmed to change her sex in a New Zealand state school.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chris...students-pronouns/WFGT2FVSSNGGDGY4ZEQ5U2E74I/

This means chest binders, sterilization and breast removal.
As though a 14 year old knows she can't be a happy lesbian or never wants to be a biomum.

This is rife in this dismal country.
I can say the story reaches heavily into "pronouns" .

I have no truck with Christian views being helpful here, but would cite the hypocratic oath as being mortally breached by the scoundrels treating this hapless kid.
 
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I'm saying, not suggesting, that the legal definition of sex is gender. If it weren't, it wouldn't be possible for it to be defined as mutable (in humans) in the first place. It's a social identity. It's certainly informed by people's ideas about what it is, but it is not, itself, sex, nor the biological definition of sex.

The biological definition is developed by biologists for the purposes of doing biology, the study of life as a natural process. The legal definition is defined for the purpose of understanding who we're talking about in the context of a legal text, and the law is inherently normative. Have you ever read the definition of 'animal' in the (US) Animal Welfare Act? It's not something any biologist would sign off on, but then why should it be?

I mean, consider the consequences of defining legal sex as immutable. If there's a clerical error on my birth certificate, I'm stuck with that for the rest of my life? Very little follows about how we should define sex in the law from the nature of sex, because the law is primarily aimed at mediating social outcomes. If a scientific or even lay definition would lead to bad outcomes, don't use it.
That rather depends what you consider to be a bad outcome. I suspect your views differ considerably from mine. You wish to be able to define sex as whatever happens to be useful to you. I don't.

My passport records my sex is male, so does my birth certificate. If the basis for those records is my biological sex then I would have incontrovertible evidence that the record was incorrect if either stated otherwise so it could be changed - and so would you.


It seems you consider the law to be entirely based on the overall wishes of society with absolutely no reference to scientific fact. Bizarre.
 
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