Loose Change: I'm Sick About This

The one person is challenging someone to come on his radio show to debate the issue. However, I would want to listen to the show prior to agreeing to anything. In the past when I have listened to shows about CTs with a guest who disagrees with the subject, the guest is interrupted and shouted at if they try to reach a point, or asked to leave if they get too close to debunking the CT. I would ask for formal debating rules with an independent moderator, and the raw audio and video footage of the show. Plus I would not debate myself, because I'm sure there are better qualified people (structural engineers, physicists, demolition experts, pilots) than me (w/ degree in theatre arts).

Is that Roxdog's podcast you're talking about, the one that "averages 50 listeners?' There's a reason he can't debate here but likes the live format: facts aren't required there.

Right now I'm writing some letters to editors, putting together LC quotes, and over the weekend I'll dissect the video.
 
Hi, Gravy. BTW, I've enjoyed several of your recent, thoroughly-researches posts.

Thanks, Belz. But the killer is that I haven't done any "research" at all. I've refuted a number of long-held CT claims with a few minutes of fact-checking. I think of research as work.

Just look at the "Oklahoma City Bombing" thread. There are apparently hundreds of websites and books that tell us how suspicious it is that "No ATF agents were in the building" when the bomb went off, because they had been warned. 15 minutes of fact-checking proves that 11-year-old claim wrong. On the same thread, another few minutes of checking disproved the CT "fact" that additional explosives were found at the building. And I had never heard of any of these CT theories until people here and at LC challenged me to seek "the truth." It's shocking how easily their b.s. can be exposed. I keep saying to myself, "Is that all they've got? When are they going to bring out the big guns?"

I think the CTers (at least the ones I've encountered on these forums...I'm not saying that all conspiracy theories are invalid) won't do real research because they're defined by their "victim" status. To take that away would be to reveal that they're perfectly capable of walking on their own, and I think that scares them very much.

The great thing about the Loose Change people is that they're so intent on giving their views widespread exposure. I'm glad to help. And I would LOVE to debate their "best" people, frauds like Steven Jones, Jeff King, and David Ray Griffin, but they'd never allow that in a million years.
 
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Welcome to the forum.

Here's the video: [/URL]


During my lunch break I watched this video and noticed that at 11 minutes 30 seconds into it, they mention Penn and Teller. The man who is talking (I forget which guy it is) mentions "Bullsh!t", how P&T try to disprove stuff, and then throw out two names, Jimmy Walter, and the other I couldn't catch. When I first saw the video, it sounded like P&T could be endorsing the Loose Change stuff. Upon rewatching it several times, I think it is actually the opposite, that P&T try to debunk this crap (Given their history of skeptical thought). But the way it is presented, and only viewed once, I can see how people might think that P&T support the "9/11 conspiracy."

What do you all think?
 
Right now I'm writing some letters to editors, putting together LC quotes, and over the weekend I'll dissect the video.
The whole topic begs for a "Bad Astronomy"-style site dissecting all the CT crap.

"Bad History?" Probably too broad.

"Bad Documentaries?" Still pretty broad.

Needs some thought.
 
It looks like something swinging to me. Something swinging that happens to be where the woman was. The way it moves seems like something blowing in the wind to me. I do not think that this object behaves like a distressed person in an imminently collapsing building would. Not haing been there I cannot tell you with any certainty what it was. But just because I cannot tell you what it is does not mean that it must then be the woman. The claim is that the moving object in the video is the woman. I disagree. The only evidence is circumstantial. There is something moving at the place where she was, but it does not look like a woman waving to me. The photos were taken from above the floor the woman was on and the video was taken from below the floor the woman was on. This makes it entirely possible for the images to have been captured at totally different times. You can believe that she is in the video but I do not see her.

Seek help.
 
this is my first post here, ive been against these loosers for a long time, but this really irks me.

i found video of the loose change creators at ground zero on 9/11 arguing with firefighters that the government is behind all this. then after that they harrass a widow and proceed to tell her that "we've been doing this research for 4 years and this documentary is the proof that the government killed your husband"

the whole time they're surrounded by other nuts, laughing at times, hanging out with the janitor who has seven different stories of what happened to him that day. its really disturbing, since they claim in the beginning that this is out of respect for the families of victims.

i live in NYC and i will be there this year with the real facts to hand out to people. i'll see ya there gravy!

i cant post the link to the video cause this is my first post, but you can googlevideo it "loose change groud zero revisited"

and this is my first post so, hi everyone!

Delphi said it best: great first post, and welcome!
 
The whole topic begs for a "Bad Astronomy"-style site dissecting all the CT crap.

"Bad History?" Probably too broad.

"Bad Documentaries?" Still pretty broad.

Needs some thought.

Attention Whores.
 
This isn't recess. This isn't story time. This isn't the set for a hip music video. This isn't the political arena or a way to make a buck. 9/11 should never be about you.

Every morning on September 11th, I make myself a stiff drink and sit in alone in the quiet at the same hour my peace was interrupted years ago by the second plane hitting the WTC live on my TV. I don't light sappy candles to try and make myself feel better. I don't pretend like those people are in a happier place now. I don't put animated GIFs of eagles crying on my website to show everyone how much I care when I didn't even know where or what the World Trade Center was before 2001. I don't sit and think how brave we all were that day or wave my flag. There wasn't any message or point to what happened. Just a chasm of human suffering dimly lit by sparks of herosim.

I do my best to remember things as they were: painful, awful, and unjust. Nothing new, just one of the extremes of the human condition. As has happened over and over in history, ignorance and hatred collided to generate pointless, wasteful destruction on a massive scale. I don't just think about the brave firefighters charging up the stairs, I remember all the office workers who were sitting at their desks crunching numbers only seconds before they were forced to decide between burning alive or committing suicide. I think of the janitor who died because someone thought taking his life would make a good political statement. I think of the people who died in a panic, running down flight after flight of stairs to escape the building that collapsed on top of them while they wondered if they would ever make it home to pick up their kids from school.

These memories are the ugly truth of that day. As bitter as they are, we owe it to those people to remember what happened accurately, because memories are all we have left.
 
And I'm sick of this.

I've been posting some Loose Change forum quotes to the "Conspiracy Theorists Say the Darndest Things" site. There is no shortage of material that's just incredibly stupid, and some of it is very insensitive. But now this.

There is a well-known photo of a woman standing in the gash made by one of the airliners at the WTC. The worst thing in the world has just happened to her. She has no good choices. No one can help her. She is going to die.

Here's what "popul vuh," who is listed as "Global Moderator," has to say about that photo:


That cinches it for me. They think they're activists for truth? I'm now an activist who will be spreading the truth about them. They think they're coming to New York to educate the public at Ground Zero? I'll be there with my friends. I hope you wanted Gravy with that, Dylan Avery.


There's no excuse for what these idiots are doing.

M.
 
There's no excuse for what these idiots are doing.

I would like nothing more than for them to grow up and realize what asses they were so they can live with that shame for the rest of their lives.
 
And isn't accusing someone of murder libel in the US ?
They avoid that by not being able to name a single person who was involved in the conspiracy. I posed this question on LC, regarding the WTC attacks:

Imagine that you're prosecuting the biggest murder case in American history. You KNOW that the crime was committed by members of a certain group. You know it so bad it hurts. You've known it for 4 1/2 years.

There are just a few tiny details you don't know:

– Who anyone is who was involved in any way
– How the plan might have been carried out
– How the vast number of people involved remained unseen and not a word leaked out
– How no trace of equipment or explosives was ever found
– How the work could have survived direct impact from 500 mph airliners and subsequent fire that was hot enough to melt aluminum
– What the motive was
– Why the perps would have added a complicated airline hijack-crash scenario to a perfectly good building demolition.
– Why the buildings weren't blown while fully occupied
– What the explosives, wiring, and/or radio detonators looked like
– How every investigator, public and private, can be in on the coverup
– Why every expert report says you're wrong
– Why the world's leading controlled demolitons experts call your theory "ludicrous"
– Why your leading scientific expert is your worst enemy ("Entropy is, 'Things topple over'.")
– Why of all people, Charlie Sheen had to publicly champion your cause
– On what day Oliver Stone's movie will be released, and if Charlie Sheen or Kevin Costner will play you

I ask you, Mr. prosecutor, have you made your case to the jury?
 
i just like how they use sources like Jimmy walters, david griffith and eric douchebag as experts in the field structural collapse.

hmm, one is a billionaire philanthropist, the other is a theologian and the last guy is a computer programmer.

based on their logic i really hope on of them gets incredibly sick and goes to an english professor for a diagnosis.
 
FFED,

Thank you for those better photos, it does seem more clear that that is infact one of the unfortunate people who died in the 9/11 attacks.

The point behind my questioning the photo on CT boards was if in fact it had been debris that looked like a person it was one more hole in their crazt rantings. At no time did I intend to lessen the horror that occured that day for the world as w hole or the people who's lives were lost.

-PopeTom
 
– On what day Oliver Stone's movie will be released, and if Charlie Sheen or Kevin Costner will play you.

This one...I don't know whether to laugh or cry. My sister is an "Eeeevil Gubmint is Practicing Mind-Control on Us with their Super-Secret Satellite Lasers" CT'er, and once sarcastically asked me during an e-mail rant who I thought Hollywood would get to play her "when the movie comes out".

Wow.

She's the reason I found my way to the JREF. This 9/11 conspiracy crap is one of the many I stay. I applaud your tenacity on this subject, Gravy, and wish there was more...heck ANYTHING... that I could do to help.
 
This one...I don't know whether to laugh or cry. My sister is an "Eeeevil Gubmint is Practicing Mind-Control on Us with their Super-Secret Satellite Lasers" CT'er, and once sarcastically asked me during an e-mail rant who I thought Hollywood would get to play her "when the movie comes out".

Wow.

She's the reason I found my way to the JREF. This 9/11 conspiracy crap is one of the many I stay. I applaud your tenacity on this subject, Gravy, and wish there was more...heck ANYTHING... that I could do to help.

Twilek, if you are close to your sister, you could encourage her to visit this site, to read Randi's commentaries and to lurk around the forum. Maybe she'll have the confidence to post and engage in discussions. She'll at least see how critical thinking skilla are applied to these issues, which she won't get at the CT sites. You could also send her the link to A Field Guide to Critical Thinking, a good, user-friendly article.

Oops. Just noticed I have a bunch of PMs. Better get to those.

(Edited to add) Or, you could just post her emails to "Conspiracy Theorists Say the Darndest Things.":D
 
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