Loose Change

Status
Not open for further replies.
geggy said:
Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation
Click to expand...
What exactly would be investigated?

I mean, the physical evidence is pretty well gone. Wherever it went, be it China or Jersey or that warehouse they put the Ark of the Covenant, the physical evidence has all been moved and cooled.

Videos? That's being done constantly anyway.

Eyewitness testimony? Given that memories change after the fact, these aren't going to be of much use either.

Sekrit gubmint files? If they exist, we'll never see them. Not for another 50 years at least.

So what is left?
 
money said:
I suspect they want a handful of amatuer filmmakers to take care of it...;)
Click to expand...

Applicant should be in his early twenties and possess absolutely no experience in the following areas: structural engineering, explosives, demolition,.........

Steve S.
 
Hutch said:
I am having a little trouble with the picture analysis over there--you know, where he claims the plane is too long to be United 175--Gravy, is there any good rebuttal or professional photog that can help?
Click to expand...

I just did my own independent analysis, and posted this at the LC Forum:
Sun Zoo, I did my own independent photogrammety with the plane that hit the South Tower. First, I took a picture of the plane from a web site called LibertyThink, which appears to be a pro-conspiracy theory site. This is a much higher-resolution picture than the one you're using in your analysis. I rotated it 3 degrees to make the fuselage horizontal, then I drew lines connecting the wingtips and the fronts of the engine nacelles. Then I measured the number of pixels from the tip of the plane's nose, to the engine fronts, and from there back to the wingtips.

Here is my picture:
175-NEW.jpg


The "A" distance you refer to is 90 pixels, and the "B" distance is 110 pixels, so A is less than B, indicating that it is indeed a 767-200. The ratio of the two measurements is 0.82.

Measurements of this pic: 0.82
Your measurements of NIST pic: 1.04
767-200: 0.95
767-300: 1.11

A further question: why are your measurements and mine so different? I think I know the answer.
Click to expand...

By the way, the answer that I think it is, is that my picture was taken from slightly behind the plane, while the one he was using was taken from slightly in front of it. The fact that the wings are pulling a high g-load and flexing upwards would cause the measurements to be off depending on your perspective. For the second-pass approximation, I'd average the two, yielding a ratio of 0.93, which is close enough for government work :D to the 0.95 number, that I'd say this issue is pretty much solved.
 
Wow, I found out the whole roswell incident is true! there are aliens! and their is a ship! And you guys should see the guy in charge of the scientific group in charge down there!

I found the answers in the movie "Independance Day"

I reckon Nasa will use that captured ship when they go back to the moon and mars.
 
CurtC said:
I just did my own independent analysis, and posted this at the LC Forum:

By the way, the answer that I think it is, is that my picture was taken from slightly behind the plane, while the one he was using was taken from slightly in front of it. The fact that the wings are pulling a high g-load and flexing upwards would cause the measurements to be off depending on your perspective. For the second-pass approximation, I'd average the two, yielding a ratio of 0.93, which is close enough for government work :D to the 0.95 number, that I'd say this issue is pretty much solved.
Click to expand...

Is there a pod underneath that airplane? :boxedin:
 
geggy said:
Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation
Click to expand...
This should come as no surprise to anyone but geggy, but guess who wrote the questions for that poll? The directors of 911truth.org, the same people I emailed this weekend with a copy of my critique of their 99 and 44/100% false literature (see my sig).

And remember their last stab at writing a 9/11 poll, on the eve of the 2004 RNC in New York, the one that asked about the "mysterious and unexplained" collapse of WTC 7?

Yet another steaming pile from geggy.
 
Sun Zoo said:
Yes, very much so. You see, if it can be proven well beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever, that the buildings did NOT "fall" (explode) as a result of the plane strike and fire, then by an extension of logical, deductive reasoning, the observations about this plane (proportion, anomalies), what it does, and what it produces must be examined in a totally different contextual frame of reference.
Click to expand...

Contextual frame of reference. Not the non-contextual kind, mind you.
 
CurtC said:
By the way, the answer that I think it is, is that my picture was taken from slightly behind the plane, while the one he was using was taken from slightly in front of it. The fact that the wings are pulling a high g-load and flexing upwards would cause the measurements to be off depending on your perspective. For the second-pass approximation, I'd average the two, yielding a ratio of 0.93, which is close enough for government work :D to the 0.95 number, that I'd say this issue is pretty much solved.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Thank you for your good work, Curt. Take two "attaboys" out of petty cash.

Guess I'd better waltz over there this morning, I whacked Sun Zoo pretty hard on the replacement aircraft and you with the analysis, he may have gone into meltdown...

Edited to add: Well, I'm flabergasted; He seems to have backed completely down on his 767-300 contention.

Thank you for your work. It's rendered the 300 observation indeterminate I have to admit.
Click to expand...

Nicely done, CurtC.
 
Last edited:
5,999 socks.

Not that I know what you're talking about, though... no, not at all. Move along... nothing to see here.
 
Belz... said:
Dammit, Gravy. Now it's double-initiated.

This'll cost me at least 6000 socks.
Click to expand...

Do you people even read the classified ad "help wanted; must speak Mandarin" I take out in every paper in the world each morning? It makes me wonder why I even bother... Don't even get me started on the male enhancement emails I send on a regular basis...
 
9-11 Truth Movement Threatened by LC!

May 19, 2006

The 9/11 truth movement is in the midst of a crisis. In contrast to rosy colored scenarios being presented, many of us see that the Loose Change and the no plane at the Pentagon disinformation campaigns clearly threaten the 9/11 truth movement's long term public legitimacy. Other than the leaders who have maintained high standards and principles, this third wave activist truth movement has become nearly unrecognizable from its origins (one main reason why this website's activism photo albums remain protected). I have heard from other credible 9/11 truth activists who feel similarly disheartened. Time will tell and history will be the judge.
Click to expand...
Er, can it be they feel threatened because the information they disseminate is LESS accurate than Loose Change? I've downloaded several other pamphlets of theirs, and, yep, they're just as bad as the one I critiqued.

I came across this humorous account of the premiere of "United 93," at which Manny & I were giving out flyers and CDs with my "LC" rebuttal. The pamphlet this guy was giving out is the one I critiqued. Excerpts from his piece about that night, with my comments in brackets:

Was at the premier tonight at the Zigfeld theatre on 54th St., of the movie "Flt. 93"

...I suppose it must've been a hand picked crowd. Their worst nighmare would've been of some of us 911 Truth people getting a ticket. (Turn it into Rocky Horror Show and act out the parts. Or talk back to the screen - "He'd never say that" Or "********!" or at the end when the narrartor says, ~"And so began the War on Terror." ..."TRAITORS!" [I'm sure the families of victims would have laughed heartily at your frisky frivolity.]

Everybody wants our fliers. [Uh, no. Few people did.]

...The 911 truth folk were barred from the sidewalk in front of the theatre. We were not allowed to flier on that side. There was a "pen" facing the entrance, on the other side of the street (it's is a rather narrow street). A banner was held up reading "Stop the Media 911 Blackout," which of course was not understood by people who are immersed in the dominent paradigm - "'Media Blackout over 911?' What does that mean? What is that for?" Someone approached me, I believe a British reporter, who had that peculiar, for me, lack of understanding of the banner, and wondered if I was part of "that group." - (Because, BTW, I will not enter a pen, so I stood apart from the group.) He said, "That group says the government did it." "Well yes," I replied, "if you look closely at the data, you have to come to that conclusion." He jumped back and scampered across the street, fast, as though I had the plague. [You're certainly a plague vector.]

There was a man there, who did not sign his name to the leaflet he was passing out, who stood toward the back of the line of people entering the theatre - (normally that would've been *my* territory - but hells, after I read his flier, I got freaked out. And chickened out of fliering right next to him. I think our fliers cancelled each other out when right next to each other.)

The whole setting and situation was freaking me out, anyway. Major Propaganda flick. How can they do this? Don't they think anyone is watching?) The man was a ringer for Robert de Niro, only taller and younger [And wealthier and more handsome and the owner of more trendy restaurants]. Les speculated he was his brother. He looked so much like him, you couldn't believe he could be merely a nephew or son. And BTW, Robert de Niro is the founder of this film festival.

I obtained the man's sheet from him, but others couldn't because he wouldn't give it out to any of us, if he knew were were 911 Reality people. He wore a baseball cap and got bored, fairly quickly, of handing out his fliers - it seemed. And just hung around our group. Maybe he had people inside, handing them out there. [My Manny Friday. And it was boring, because so few people were taking their flyers. We only gave info to people who got info from them.]

But really when people left, they were quite open to the fliers. [And to displaying disgust when they saw the content] So the Anti- influences couldn't have worked all that well. The security there didn't like to see that. It seemed I could feel them cringe at our, even minimal, success. I mean, a slip of paper will not compete with a blockbuster Hollywood movie. But many people did seem to want to speak to us. [Uh, no] And didn't hate us.

The man's fliers quoted, out of context, things he'd read about 911 Truth and he provided quotes made by random people off 911 blogs, and specificly, Dylan Avery. I guess he was reading Dylan's blog and knew that Dylan planned to be there, which he was. Dylan later said he confronted the man and said, "Here I am, right in front of you, why don't you tell me face to face what problem you have with me." [I said, "Here's a CD with my 'Loose Change Viewer's Guide.'"] Or somesuch. (Avery will probably tell the story better on his blog. I met him him later nearby and he impressed me as an highly intelligent man.) (But hells, what can you do? Dylan, as of now, made the definitive 911 documentary flick for our age. And for the fiction version of the story: "V for Vendetta" wins.

So maybe this was Dylan's homage - getting picked-on at the opening of the NY film festival, which originated to bring the downtown back from 911 - at the opening of the first major Hollywood flick of 9/11, by a guy who looks like a relative of Robert de Niro! I guess they are jealous of his Underground success?! No surprise there! Avery's tells the most important story there is, for a New Yorker, for an American, for a human being alive in the world today with the Superpower, Imperial wannabe, U.S.A. Avery told the true story. [Was that in the LC "extras?" I didn't see it in the main feature.] What can you do? The true story, especially in this case, is just going to have so much more flavor. They wish they could buy that flavor and sell it back to you, without you knowing what it is.) [I'll know it by its smell.]

...Everyone wanted a copy of the smear-job leaflet to see what hellacious crap it was, so I didn't get to keep one to bring home, but generously gave mine away. Therefore, I can't quote it to you. But if I could, you'd have a big shock and a laugh. The flier didn't address any points, but just smeared the 911 Truth movement - telling people to Beware! It told people they might be approached by us and might even be offered a copy of the terrible insulting movie "Loose Change," which was full of innaccuracies. It said no one in our group cared about the families - (never mind I, myself, lost a best friend, most outstanding person, to the very bottom of North Tower). [Need I remind everyone that these people were PROTESTING at an event attended by the families of vicetims?] It said these ideas were, surprisingly, spreading a lot and that they was especially popular among young men, and were being passed around in schools and on campuses and from off the Internet.

...Anyway Dylan got plenty of footage of the person who was handing this out, and others got the man's pic too. Even I did, but it was a bad shot.

There were a lot of foreign journalists and many interviews with 911 Truth members. Many people I handed out leaflets to were exceptionally kind and sympathetic. We got no harrassment. (Except for the typical abrogation of our rights, by making us stand in a pen and limiting our access to the public, by the police. We couldn't flier the crowd, except as they approached or left the event, not as they stood in line, for the most part. [Boy, that was a short "Media Blackout."]

...The news cameras interviewed a few people as they left, who were somewhat in tears. Everyone looked quite sad or at least subdued and pensive, quiet, upon leaving. Who I saw, with slight tears, were young women. But afterward, almost no one was averse to taking a flier, especially the tasteful and kind one Nick wrote - if approached with kindness and politeness. [I believe he's talking about the flyer that "tastefully" reminded the families of the flight 93 victims that there were no heroes on board.] I wouldn't approach if it would seem like an intrusion. That was what I didn't like about the all men and boys of the group, in the pen, shouting to the crowd across the street. It just didn't seem effective. [It was plenty effective, if their goal was to make people think they were insane douchebags.] And maybe counter-productive.

But they felt the necessity to really protest it. And hells, how can I really blame them. [Like this: "Hey, douchebags! Why don't you show some respect for the victims of 9/11?"] Me, I always say "please" when I ask someone to take my flier and people appreciate that. I am not forcing it upon them. If they say "No," they do so with politeness and with an added "Thank you," because I have asked them with a "Please" and with gentleness.

My friend said the reaction might be different in a place outside of NYC. But here the reaction from the crowd who we *could* reach was very thoughtful and open. It was mostly like a showbiz type gala or celebrity fest - though I couldn't tell who were the celebrities. I wonder if Bloomberg went. I wonder how many conspirators went? ....
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
geggy said:
Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation
Click to expand...

At one point, a large number of people thought the Earth was flat. So it must be true.

At one point, a large number of people thought that Apollo drew the sun across the sky with his chariot. So it must be true.

At one point, a large number of people thought that epileptic shock was a sign of being possessed by the devil. So it must be true.

Sorry, Geggy, but numbers of believers are not evidence, despite how much you would like it to be.
 
Hutch said:
Edited to add: Well, I'm flabergasted; He seems to have backed completely down on his 767-300 contention.

Nicely done, CurtC.
Click to expand...
Good job there! I'm looking forward to reading Sun Zoo's 'The Art of Backpedaling."
 
Beleth said:
What exactly would be investigated?

I mean, the physical evidence is pretty well gone. Wherever it went, be it China or Jersey or that warehouse they put the Ark of the Covenant, the physical evidence has all been moved and cooled.

Videos? That's being done constantly anyway.

Eyewitness testimony? Given that memories change after the fact, these aren't going to be of much use either.

Sekrit gubmint files? If they exist, we'll never see them. Not for another 50 years at least.

So what is left?
Click to expand...

So in your opinion, NIST's soon to be released report of the collapsing of WTC7 will be inconclusive?

Videos of police and firefighter testimony of hearing explosives might be as useful of an evidence as videos of a plane hitting the pentagon?

If the fbi and the cia failed to connect the dots prior to sept 11, how were they able to name 19 hijackers within a week of the attacks? Simply by looking at the passenger manifest including the arab-sounding names? If these names are on the terrorist watch list, how were they able to get in and out of the US with the visa prior to sept 11?
 
Gravy said:
Good job there! I'm looking forward to reading Sun Zoo's 'The Art of Backpedaling."
Click to expand...
His response is fair. He's acknowledged the measurements I made, but hasn't vacated the idea that it was a 767-300 (and therefore couldn't have been flight 175). He's asking for more measurements, and something that won't be affected by perspective like the wingtips being raised up high.

You can read the thread here.
 
geggy said:
So in your opinion, NIST's soon to be released report of the collapsing of WTC7 will be inconclusive?

Videos of police and firefighter testimony of hearing explosives might be as useful of an evidence as videos of a plane hitting the pentagon?

If the fbi and the cia failed to connect the dots prior to sept 11, how were they able to name 19 hijackers within a week of the attacks? Simply by looking at the passenger manifest including the arab-sounding names? If these names are on the terrorist watch list, how were they able to get in and out of the US with the visa prior to sept 11?
Click to expand...

Still asking questions, and nothing else, eh, Geggy ?
 
geggy said:
Still no real answers, eh, Belz?
Click to expand...
Speaking of which, how 'bout a response for this: What do you do for a living?

As for 9/11, there have been countless answers, my little friend. That you, in your infinite density, can't seem to decipher them, does not invalidate even one.
 
geggy said:
Still no real answers, eh, Belz?
Click to expand...
Funniest quote I have seen all year. Easily.

Here's the first question in the Zogby poll I'm commissioning:

geggy, when will you stop your atrocious and illegal wife-beatings?

A) How can I stop beating my wife? That doesn't make any sense.
B) Maybe soon
C) Right away
D) Those arent beatings, they're controlled demolitions from the top down disguised to look like multiple doorknob contusions.
 
Lots of 911 Truthers heve cited Noam Chomsky as an important influence. I wonder if they still do after reading his absolute smackdown of the "9/11 truth Movement."

ETA: From a smart man, to one who could probably give geggy a fight for his title: This guy was apparently one of the protestors at the premiere of "United 93." Here's what he lists as "evidence" against the government (emphasis his).
13) The bio of some of the passengers is linked with military-, government and high tech companies. Two of the passengers worked for CENSUS Bureau. The reason of their trip was not disclosed.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
What an entertaining thread, Gravy. I enjoyed this bit, early on:

...don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to understand that softly burning skyscrapers don’t collapse at free fall speed into tidy piles of rubble without the aid of explosives. How many times have you seen the collapse of WTC7 on CNN? I also think the attitude of “trust the experts” is elitist...
Click to expand...
I encourage this loon to visit his butcher the day he needs a triple bypass.

Oh, and the fires are "softly burning" now? "Tidy piles?"

An infinite number of monkeys pounding away at typewriters 'til the end of time couldn't craft more remarkable idiocy.
 
Regnad Kcin said:
...
An infinite number of monkeys pounding away at typewriters 'til the end of time couldn't craft more remarkable idiocy.
Click to expand...

I'll have to respectfully disagree on this one ND. They've made it pretty clear on their forums that, at least some of them, view this as a crusade to undermine the gov't and truth be d@mn3d. If they are wrong, and I believe they are, they are detracting from real issues that people should be concerned about regarding the gov't; they are promoting the destablization of the federal infrastructure; and they are aiding (intentionally or not) those that would like to see the collapse of the US.

Unlike moon-hoax theorists, or Area-51 theorists, I don't think the wild conjectures of 9/11 theorists are harmless. Heck, Chomsky said it pretty good:
...
My reasons for giving this low priority are simple: it has been draining enormous energy away from work on far more serious crimes of the administration against the US population and the world (which is why, I suspect, it is getting such a tolerant reception in the mainstream, dramatically different from the hysterical abuse and slanders that are elicited at once by anything directed to real power interests). That would be sufficient reason to give it low priority.

Further reason is that to evaluate the alleged evidence requires the kind of expert knowledge that can’t be picked up from surfing the internet: it requiressubstantial understanding of civil/mechanical engineering, the specific characteristics of the building, evaluation of photos, etc., and I don’t see dropping what I’m doing and taking off a great deal of time to pick up the requisite background and evalute the evidence. And a story will also have to be told about the planes and passengers, the massive cover-up involving huge numbers of people and (miraculously) no leaks, and why the administration would have been so utterly insane as to try something like this (which hasn’t the remotest analogue in history).

But those considerations aside, the vasts amount of energy being poured into this has been quite harmful to activism on serious and urgent issues—hence the relevance of the speculations based on the declassification documents.
...
Click to expand...
 
geggy said:
Miss Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation...
Click to expand...

Hmm, would that be the notoriously inaccurate Zogby poll, the one that predicted Kerry would beat Bush in 2004 by a landslide -- on election night, no less? The poll conducted by the man whose brother founded the Arab-American Institute, and thus might have strong motivation for attempting to turn blame for 9/11 away from Arab extremists? (Come on, you CT'ers would be all over that last fact like flies on manure if the situation were reversed.)

Is that the Zogby poll you're referring to, geggy?
 
Last edited:
Stellafane said:
Hmm, would that be the notoriously innacurate Zogby poll, the one that predicted Kerry would beat Bush in 2004 by a landslide -- on election night, no less? The poll conducted by the man whose brother founded the Arab-American Institute, and thus might have strong motivation for attempting to turn blame for 9/11 away from Arab extremists? (Come on, you CT'ers would be all over that last fact like flies on manure if the situation were reversed.)

Is that the Zogby poll you're referring to, geggy?
Click to expand...
Well, one wants to be fair to Mr. Zogby. When he first broke on the scene in a big way it was because he had enormous success in election accuracy -- in particular, he did a better job than others of polling state races. His more recent polls have been somewhat less successful, as noted. But the available evidence indicates that he's a real pollster (at least for the polls his organization authors -- his recent trend of asking whatever idiot questions anyone pays him for and allowing his name to be put on it is extremely troubling) with real credibility.
 
geggy said:
Still no real answers, eh, Belz?



Watch this video and listen closely...I wonder if they were speaking of WTC7 or the towers? I cant seem to make it out.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/firefighters_bomb_in_building.wmv
Click to expand...


Someone posted that video link to a thread on the IIDB forum, geggy.
I had the same question.
It's obviously video of 7 and since that audio accompanies it I would expect they're talking about 7 too. I asked the poster where he got it from hoping
that would help me try to verify that. But so far he hasn't replied.

By the way, the original poster's intent in posting that video was to show us the fire must have been more extensive than the woo-woo's wanna accept because how in the hell else could it produce that much smoke.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom