Loose Change - Part II

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chipmunk stew said:
9/11 CT swill on the verge of destroying a family:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5267&view=findpost&p=4920665

Someone who still has an active account, please try talking some sense into this man before he loses his family and friends.
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Poor ol' Jerry seems to need an intervention there!

He tried to hook up with an old girl friend with LC and she wasn't seduced!

(Does she have a tomcat basher too? I've learned not to play with Fire!)

He doesn't want help. He wants to be adored. (See previous Feeeelings comments.)

He wants to be the smartest person in the room - and there's a bin of 'em over there, chasing nothing, hoping to catch it, or be the latest one to see it.
 
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Gravy said:
I agree with your post. What bothers me the most, though, is that in order to posit a theoretical evil, the Loosers have to ignore a real evil that has been spitting and snarling in their face for years, and that all evidence says is guilty of real mass murder.
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There's also a very real danger in this mentality that wants so badly to see the world in simplistic, black and white or good and evil. Everyone has to fit into one category or the other. You all saw how quickly the Looser crowd sent a swarm of harassing e-mails to the Naudet brothers. They did the simple math, labeled them, and went on the offensive.

It's a sort of superstition, this is dehumanizing propaganda that teaches us a certain group of our fellow species are "the enemy" and are therefore the source of all of the misfortunes that plague the human condition. Like throwing spilled salt over his shoulder to blind an onlooking demon, by tracking down this conspiracy and rooting it out the conspiracy theorist gains control and understand of his misfortunes. He always has someone to blame when something goes wrong. It's never fate or bad luck or even himself. It's that faceless, omnipresent "enemy" at fault.

Inevitably, the rhetoric in conspiracy groups becomes more heated. What starts as curious musings foments rage and hatred. Then it's only a matter of time before the more dissilusioned members take violent action against the perceived source of evil. Murdering those responsible for every horrible thing one hears about in the news isn't madness, it's logic. Paranoia has a tragic breaking point. The JFK assasination. The Church burnings in the South. The Oklahoma City Bombings. The Beltway sniper. The Holocaust. The Columbine shootings. The Rawandan Genocide. I'm sure you can think of dozens of other examples. We see the beginnings of it already in the Loose Change crowd with the e-mails Avery mentioned threatening violence against the lawyers. If you take a few steps back, you can see it's exactly the same mentality that caused 15 Saudis, an Egyptian, two Emirati, and a Lebanese man to unleash the very destruction Avery's movie is about.

Not only are these hate groups and conspiracy nuts causing some to ignore the danger posed by other paranoid radicals, they can very easily become dangerous paranoid radicals themselves.
 
60hzxtl said:
Poor ol' Jerry seems to need an intervention there!

He tried to hook up with an old girl friend with LC and she wasn't seduced!

(Does she have a tomcat basher too? I've learned not to play with Fire!)

He doesn't want help. He wants to be adored. (See previous Feeeelings comments.)

He wants to be the smartest person in the room - and there's a bin of 'em over there, chasing nothing, hoping to catch it, or be the latest one to see it.
Click to expand...
Another relationship headed for collapse:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5239&view=findpost&p=4916842
 
chipmunk stew said:
9/11 CT swill on the verge of destroying a family:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5267&view=findpost&p=4920665

Someone who still has an active account, please try talking some sense into this man before he loses his family and friends.
Click to expand...
That is tragic. It sounds like the guy is at a bad spot in his life. If anyone does contact him, this conspiracy thing needs to be low on the list of priorities. He needs some understanding and friendship from outside the conspiracy theory group first. My account isn't un-suspended for a couple more days.

Sadly, I imagine I could find a very simiar post if I looked on a Scientologist web forum.
 
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delphi_ote said:
That is tragic. It sounds like the guy is at a bad spot in his life. If anyone does contact him, this conspiracy thing needs to be low on the list of priorities. He needs some understanding and friendship from outside the conspiracy theory group first. My account isn't un-suspended for a couple more days.

Sadly, I imagine I could find a very simiar post if I looked on a Scientologist web forum.
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If I was at home, I'd love to accept the mission. The LC forum is blocked at work for some crazy reason.
 
delphi_ote said:
That is tragic. It sounds like the guy is at a bad spot in his life. If anyone does contact him, this conspiracy thing needs to be low on the list of priorities. He needs some understanding and friendship from outside the conspiracy theory group first. My account isn't un-suspended for a couple more days.

Sadly, I imagine I could find a very simiar post if I looked on a Scientologist web forum.
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"Advice" from the forum:

I had a similar experience. The Key here is to never to speak about possible theories, or "what really happened" but just to underline the questions.
Click to expand...

The Key to what? Driving your loved ones insane?
 
bob_kark said:
If I was at home, I'd love to accept the mission. The LC forum is blocked at work for some crazy reason.
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Heh. I can see the site but they're not getting a hold of my work IP if I can help it.

Speaking of which: WARNING!!!

Persons who post to the Loosers from work or are considering doing so should check out the second post of this thread. The Looser moderators have contempt for the basic rules of netiquette as regards on-line privacy and will post your IP lookup for everyone to see. So unless you want to see your employer's domain name and your IT head's name and number displayed for all to see I recommend caution.
 
dubfan said:
What is the most powerful evidence? Facts only!

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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Dear Loose Change forum member:

Please take a moment and register at the JREF. Then, in this thread (or what will likely be the soon to be started Pt. 17) post your "fact(s)" or question, one at a time, sticking as best you can to the subject of your choosing. You will enjoy thoughtful and interesting discussion, likely to challenge not only your point, or belief, but also your critical thinking methods.

Be advised you will not be banned (as long as you adhere to the fair and impartial forum rules), but you will no doubt be treated with a high degree of tenacity. Unsupported allegations, innuendo, leading questions, logical fallacies, and other techniques will no doubt be pointed out to you. As you should if you encounter them here or anywhere else.

This is not a "challenge," but rather an invitation. The welcome mat is out.

RK
 
Manny said:
That's absolutely the attraction of CTs to at least some people. The just don't want to believe that the world is a random, chaotic place where weird stuff happens despite what we think are precautions against them. They want a world where somebody, somewhere, is in control even if that somebody is sometimes malevolent. (Insert shot at religion here.)

Heh. Heh. Heh.

In other Bugs Bunny news, I was at a bar this weekend called the Spuyten Duyvel, which I used to think was just something funny which Bugs Bunny said. As it happens, the bar is no where near the actual Spuyten Duyvil, but their beer selection more than makes up for any geographic confusion they may cause.
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thats one of my favorite bars to go to. i've probably seen you there and didnt notice hahaha.
 
dubfan said:
What is the most powerful evidence? Facts only!

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Click to expand...

I particularily like this quote from our beloved "TheQuest":

3. What are the chances that THREE buildinds 'collapsed' in their own footprint on 911 within hours of each other, suppossedly due to fire when it had not even happened ONCE before! With odds like that, buy your lottery tickets now.
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This doesn't even start to make sense. Obviously, every single event in history, with all its little details, only occured once. Crash two airliners into 110 storey buildings for the first time and you're bound to end up with a precedent.

ETA: I also like the "someone is covering for someone" comment, as according to their theory, EVERYONE is covering for EVERYONE, which makes the troothers a little out of the loop.
 
delphi_ote said:
There's also a very real danger in this mentality that wants so badly to see the world in simplistic, black and white or good and evil. Everyone has to fit into one category or the other. You all saw how quickly the Looser crowd sent a swarm of harassing e-mails to the Naudet brothers. They did the simple math, labeled them, and went on the offensive.

It's a sort of superstition, this is dehumanizing propaganda that teaches us a certain group of our fellow species are "the enemy" and are therefore the source of all of the misfortunes that plague the human condition. Like throwing spilled salt over his shoulder to blind an onlooking demon, by tracking down this conspiracy and rooting it out the conspiracy theorist gains control and understand of his misfortunes. He always has someone to blame when something goes wrong. It's never fate or bad luck or even himself. It's that faceless, omnipresent "enemy" at fault.

Inevitably, the rhetoric in conspiracy groups becomes more heated. What starts as curious musings foments rage and hatred. Then it's only a matter of time before the more dissilusioned members take violent action against the perceived source of evil. Murdering those responsible for every horrible thing one hears about in the news isn't madness, it's logic. Paranoia has a tragic breaking point. The JFK assasination. The Church burnings in the South. The Oklahoma City Bombings. The Beltway sniper. The Holocaust. The Columbine shootings. The Rawandan Genocide. I'm sure you can think of dozens of other examples. We see the beginnings of it already in the Loose Change crowd with the e-mails Avery mentioned threatening violence against the lawyers. If you take a few steps back, you can see it's exactly the same mentality that caused 15 Saudis, an Egyptian, two Emirati, and a Lebanese man to unleash the very destruction Avery's movie is about.

Not only are these hate groups and conspiracy nuts causing some to ignore the danger posed by other paranoid radicals, they can very easily become dangerous paranoid radicals themselves.
Click to expand...

Very well said, Delphi... I mean... master. 100% agreed. Now where's that LC laughing smiley...
 
So true, Belz.

I mean, what are the chances that MANY nuclear warheads were set off at DIFFERENT times in MULTIPLE places, all of DIFFERING construction and ALL of the resulting explosions produced IDENTICAL mushroom clouds, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

What are the chances that SEVERAL fixed-wing aircraft 'flew' a short distance within months of each other, supposedly due to inventors working on the problems, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

Of course, I am part of THE CONSPIRACY, so can't be trusted :)
 
Huntsman said:
So true, Belz.

I mean, what are the chances that MANY nuclear warheads were set off at DIFFERENT times in MULTIPLE places, all of DIFFERING construction and ALL of the resulting explosions produced IDENTICAL mushroom clouds, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

What are the chances that SEVERAL fixed-wing aircraft 'flew' a short distance within months of each other, supposedly due to inventors working on the problems, when it had not even happened ONCE before!

Of course, I am part of THE CONSPIRACY, so can't be trusted :)
Click to expand...

It's like some perverse mutation of the Gambler's Fallacy.
 
delphi_ote said:
There's also a very real danger in this mentality that wants so badly to see the world in simplistic, black and white or good and evil. Everyone has to fit into one category or the other. You all saw how quickly the Looser crowd sent a swarm of harassing e-mails to the Naudet brothers. They did the simple math, labeled them, and went on the offensive.

It's a sort of superstition, this is dehumanizing propaganda that teaches us a certain group of our fellow species are "the enemy" and are therefore the source of all of the misfortunes that plague the human condition. Like throwing spilled salt over his shoulder to blind an onlooking demon, by tracking down this conspiracy and rooting it out the conspiracy theorist gains control and understand of his misfortunes. He always has someone to blame when something goes wrong. It's never fate or bad luck or even himself. It's that faceless, omnipresent "enemy" at fault.

Inevitably, the rhetoric in conspiracy groups becomes more heated. What starts as curious musings foments rage and hatred. Then it's only a matter of time before the more dissilusioned members take violent action against the perceived source of evil. Murdering those responsible for every horrible thing one hears about in the news isn't madness, it's logic. Paranoia has a tragic breaking point. The JFK assasination. The Church burnings in the South. The Oklahoma City Bombings. The Beltway sniper. The Holocaust. The Columbine shootings. The Rawandan Genocide. I'm sure you can think of dozens of other examples. We see the beginnings of it already in the Loose Change crowd with the e-mails Avery mentioned threatening violence against the lawyers. If you take a few steps back, you can see it's exactly the same mentality that caused 15 Saudis, an Egyptian, two Emirati, and a Lebanese man to unleash the very destruction Avery's movie is about.

Not only are these hate groups and conspiracy nuts causing some to ignore the danger posed by other paranoid radicals, they can very easily become dangerous paranoid radicals themselves.
Click to expand...


That is precisely what I have been thinking about this "Truth" movement. How long is it before one of these guys, fueled on by their idiot fellow "truthers" actually harms someone. I honestly believe that it is only a matter of time at this point.
 
It should be no surprise that family members wouldn't buy this. Even the family members of the producers of the film don't buy it.

In part, thanks to "Loose Change 2," evidence of flaws in the 9/11 Commission's report has reached mainstream news. Yet some Americans continue to scoff. Why? "Some people just can't see it," says Bermas. Bermas tried to show "Loose Change 2" to his family, but "they just left the room. They just couldn't watch it."
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This is available at Screw Loose Change, since I can't post a link yet.
 
Manny said:
Heh. I can see the site but they're not getting a hold of my work IP if I can help it.

Speaking of which: WARNING!!!

Persons who post to the Loosers from work or are considering doing so should check out the second post of this thread. The Looser moderators have contempt for the basic rules of netiquette as regards on-line privacy and will post your IP lookup for everyone to see. So unless you want to see your employer's domain name and your IT head's name and number displayed for all to see I recommend caution.
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Yea, it's pretty clear that all the guy's buddys are the mods and admins over there.

I wounder if when you sign up as a part of the user agreement they agree not to post personal info. I'm thinking the admin doing that could get him into trouble.
 
JamesB said:
It should be no surprise that family members wouldn't buy this. Even the family members of the producers of the film don't buy it.
In part, thanks to "Loose Change 2," evidence of flaws in the 9/11 Commission's report has reached mainstream news. Yet some Americans continue to scoff. Why? "Some people just can't see it," says Bermas. Bermas tried to show "Loose Change 2" to his family, but "they just left the room. They just couldn't watch it."
.
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I guess that means he has the basement of mom's house to himself again. . .
 
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Manny said:
Heh. I can see the site but they're not getting a hold of my work IP if I can help it.

Speaking of which: WARNING!!!

Persons who post to the Loosers from work or are considering doing so should check out the second post of this thread. The Looser moderators have contempt for the basic rules of netiquette as regards on-line privacy and will post your IP lookup for everyone to see. So unless you want to see your employer's domain name and your IT head's name and number displayed for all to see I recommend caution.
Click to expand...

A couple other funny things about that thread.

Roxdog taking offense at my suggestion that Fred Phelps and his peons should be beaten silly by a platoon of angry marines. How insane do you have to get that you'll start standing up for the "God hates f_gs" idiots?

I seem to have been banned for trolling the trolling section.

Finalstrikes claim that I will someday have an epiphany, wake up and be converted to thier silly cult...

...as soon as they can demonstrate the existence of a technology that can teleport 40,000 explosive charges through 1.25 million tons of steel, concrete and drywall without disturbing interior surfaces in a space of 36 hours, that is. :p
 
Kiwiwriter said:
Second, for the general public, they take a messy, complex world full of loose ends, ambiguity, unfinished business, and vagueness, and turn it into a neat clean fairy tale/soap opera, with everything explained and set out as carefully as a math problem. Everything fits together...the world is comprehensible.
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I think you summarized it perfectly there. 9/11 was such a traumatic event, such an huge and horrible act of hatred, that it is dificult to grasp. To this day, I don't understand it myself. I think the world hasn't made sense of it yet either. I think humankind maybe never will completely. For some people, as you said, try desperatly to put meaning to it. That's what the CT are doing because they can't acknowledge the horrible fact that human beings can be monsters. So they invent a large invisible evil organisation to explain everything, to place the blame on somethig that doesn't have a face.
 
Pardalis said:
I think you summarized it perfectly there. 9/11 was such a traumatic event, such an huge and horrible act of hatred, that it is dificult to grasp. To this day, I don't understand it myself. I think the world hasn't made sense of it yet either. I think humankind maybe never will completely. For some people, as you said, try desperatly to put meaning to it. That's what the CT are doing because they can't acknowledge the horrible fact that human beings can be monsters. So they invent a large invisible evil organisation to explain everything, to place the blame on somethig that doesn't have a face.
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Thing is, they often then end up putting a face on their invisible evil organization.
 
Wow - They're starting to sound like the fundies as well

"dude hasnt had self realisation yet thats all" from Swords' thread and
And finding the answers yourself is the only way some people "See the light" from the family thread, Bleh.

On another note if you're worried about them broadcasting your IP address then an Anonymiser site should be able to assist.

**Warning**
Make sure you're chummy with your network manager first, if you can access the site. They're often blocked for very good reasons. If you wish to use things like this at home make sure you have a couple of spyware apps running, there are dubious uses for this and some places it shows.
 
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chipmunk stew said:
Another relationship headed for collapse:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5239&view=findpost&p=4916842
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I kind of have the same problem with a few of my friends. I was watching a hockey game with a friend when during the break somehow we got to talking about the movie "United 93". I was shocked at the violence of his reaction when he said that these passengers were probably inventions of the US government propaganda. I was so shocked that I couldn't say anything, I just stood there in awe. Fortunately the hockey game resumed and we never talked about it again. Now every time the conversation even comes close to the 9/11 events, I just change the subject. I really value this friend but I really am surprised that paranoia can be get to an intelligent person so easily.
 
Mongrel said:
On another note if you're worried about them broadcasting your IP address then an Anonymiser site should be able to assist.

**Warning**
Make sure you're chummy with your network manager first, if you can access the site. They're often blocked for very good reasons. If you wish to use things like this at home make sure you have a couple of spyware apps running, there are dubious uses for this and some places it shows.
Click to expand...

There are other programs you can use that bounce your IP address around a few times to make it difficult to trace. I've used Ghostsurf before, it limits what websites you go to, but AFAIK it has been effective.
 
Arkan_Wolfshade said:
Thing is, they often then end up putting a face on their invisible evil organization.
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Yeah, it often ends up being Bush's face, but I think they just use him as a scapegoat. The "They" the CTs are always referring to are rather faceless, multi-national, multi-generational and all encompassing, wich makes "Them" virtually impossible to catch. So whatever happens next, whatever important event occurs, it will surely be "Their" doing.

ETA: Like Delphi noted, it's a really simplistic way of seeing things, and intellectually lazy. The real sick result of all this is that the real perpetrators avoid accountablility for their actions this way.
 
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Wow bobkark that was a quick response. I doubt you even clicked on the link.

Unless you took up speed reading courses.
 
ob986s said:
That is precisely what I have been thinking about this "Truth" movement. How long is it before one of these guys, fueled on by their idiot fellow "truthers" actually harms someone. I honestly believe that it is only a matter of time at this point.
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These types of groups tend to attract the frustrated and disenchanted members of society, peel them away from people who aren't like minded, and then fill their heads with more and more preposterous ideas. Having that many unquestioning believers together with the mentally unstable is like storing gasoline and a box of matches in a 3rd grade classroom where the teacher is on vacation.
 
60hzxtl said:
That tears it!

Was It bombs that pulled it and the missile, and released the anthrax, which resulted in memory loss of melted metal in WTC paid for by the black pope and the Naudet brothers knew, because they were in on it?


But hey, I'm just asking questions.
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Mock mock mock

It's no wonder why you can't see the obviousness of the us government's complicity in sept 11, joker.
 
geggy said:
sighs I feel sorry for you people...

Read this...

http://www.freewebs.com/abigsecret/grove.html

This is serious...!!
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Don't you have to be an insider to be a whistleblower? He's not a whistleblower, just another loony CT'er whe can't speak clearly or get to the point of his argument.

The inability to write a coherent paragraph seems to be the norm for CT'ers for some reason. Perhaps that reason is to disguise the fact that there is no actual evidence for the CT?
 
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