• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Landis fails drug test - or do drugs tests fail Landis?

I thought Landis was probably telling the truth. It's looking a little less likely right now.

That IRMS test sounds flat out amazing. Exogenis testosterone has a different ration between C12 and C13 than testoterone produced in the body? I wonder why. And whatever the cause I suspect that the effect is very tiny and very difficult to accurately detect.

From this site:
http://www.measurement.gov.au/index...&objectID=B54CCEF6-BCD6-81AC-148843FC82CAB33E
By measuring the C12:C13 ratio of steroids detected in urine, GC-IRMS can distinguish between administered and naturally occurring steroids and can identify steroid abuse in cases that would have previously gone undetected. The application of this technique is not simple - the instrumentation is expensive because of the high precision required, and larger sample sizes are needed, which increases the amount of sample preparation required before analysis. In March 1999 a GC-IRMS instrument was installed. Measurement of T/E ratio will continue to be used for routine screening of urine samples, with GC-IRMS used as a complementary test, particularly to confirm suspicious results.
Click to expand...
 
wipeout said:
There are now two media reports/rumours of both a testosterone/epitestosterone ratio of 11:1 for Landis in his test result -- 1:1 being normal and 4:1 being the agreed doping level -- and another test showing the testosterone to be not from his body:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul31news
Click to expand...
It has been pointed out that Landis' thyroid problems, the treatment of his inflamed hip with corticosteroids, as well as drinking alcohol on the night prior to stage 17, could be factors which could have affected his testosterone levels. "As soon as an athlete is controlled positive for testosterone, the same old stories come up," Ayotte continued. "The increase, even if natural, of the ratio testosterone/epitestosterone cannot, in any case, be explained by taking thyroid hormones or corticosteroids. Alcohol can in fact influence it, but only with women, and only for three or four hours."
Click to expand...
The same excuses every time ... I'll bet a dollar he is guilty and will be found guilty.
 
Probably the same as Dead plant and living plant C14/C13/C12 ratio

davefoc said:
That IRMS test sounds flat out amazing. Exogenis testosterone has a different ration between C12 and C13 than testoterone produced in the body? I wonder why.
Click to expand...

Probably the same reason the C12/C14 ratio is different in living animals/plants than in long dead one...

EAT see Wiki on gas chromatography :

Medicine

In combination with isotopic labelling of metabolic compounds, the GC-MS is used for determining metabolic activity. Most applications are based on the use of C13 as the labelling and the measurement of C13/C12 ratios with an isotope ratio mass spectrometer (IRMS); an MS with a detector designed to measure a few select ions and return values as ratios.
 
Last edited:
I've been doing a little reading about the C12/C13 ratio.

I haven't found a solid source, but apparently the idea is that different people eat different foods. Different foods have different C12/C13 ratios which leads to people having unique c12/c13 ratios. Your own testosterone will have the same C12/C13 ratio has everything else that is created in your body. Exogenis testosterone is detected when the C12/C13 ratio is different than for substances created in the body.

C13 is different from C14 in that C13 is stable and does not automatically decay to some other isotope.

One interesting, but unrelated thing, I discovered as a result of looking for more information on the C12/C13 ratio is that measurement of the ratio is one technique for determining if the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is anthropogenic or not. Fossil fuels have slightly different C12/C13 ratios than the CO2 in the atmosphere. If the rise in CO2 is caused by the burning of fossil fuels a change in the C12/C13 ratio would be expected with an increase in the CO2 level. This is exactly what is found.
 
Alcohol depresses testosterone in men, that's why drinking too much gives men breasts. The estrogen is no long in such a minority.
 
wrong - ahtletes can still compete while taking meds

Ririon said:
Yes it does. Most of the items on the doping list, including testosterone, are useful medicines for various diseases. If you have to take them for legitimate medical reasons, you must stop competing until the effect can no longer benefit you in a competition.
Click to expand...

Athlete's may request Therapeutic Use Exemptions.

As per WADA's website:

The purpose of the International Standard for TUE is to ensure that the process of granting TUEs is harmonized across sports and countries.


What is a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE)?

Athletes, like all others, may have illnesses or conditions that require them to take particular medications. If the medication an athlete is required to take to treat an illness or condition happens to fall under the Prohibited List, a Therapeutic Use Exemption may give that athlete the authorization to take the needed medicine.

What are the criteria for granting a TUE?

The criteria are:

¨ The athlete would experience significant health problems without taking the prohibited substance or method,

¨ The therapeutic use of the substance would not produce significant enhancement of performance, and

¨ There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to the use of the otherwise prohibited substance or method.
 
Ririon said:
I stand corrected, mac. :)
Click to expand...

Oops, sorry for being abrupt - it's late here and I'm hungry (still at work). The WADA site is quite informative - I've looked in quite a bit. They're a helpful bunch too. Great if one's an athlete - guess a few more could look in more often. ;-)
 
"The UCI communicates that the analysis of the sample B of Floyd Landis's urine has confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding notified by the anti-doping laboratory of Paris on 26th July, following the analysis of the sample A,"
 
It seemed likely that results from the second sample would match the first. I have a few questions though about the situation.

1. Was the testing done in physically different labs by different people?

2. Was the correlation between the two results good enough to suggest that the testing was reliable?

3. Has there been an official release of the quantitative results?

4. I understand that some of the quantitative results have been leaked but were they leaked accurately and why were they leaked instead of just being released officially?

5. How solid is the evidence that an 11 to 1 (assuming the leaked result is accurate) ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone is proof of doping?

6. How reliable is the ion ratio test as proof of uptake of exogenis testosterone?

7. Could any of the medications that Landis was taking have contributed to the result?

8. Are there any plausible scenarios whereby Landis could have received drugs that could explain these results without his knowledge?
 
davefoc said:
It seemed likely that results from the second sample would match the first. I have a few questions though about the situation.

1. Was the testing done in physically different labs by different people?

2. Was the correlation between the two results good enough to suggest that the testing was reliable?

3. Has there been an official release of the quantitative results?

4. I understand that some of the quantitative results have been leaked but were they leaked accurately and why were they leaked instead of just being released officially?

5. How solid is the evidence that an 11 to 1 (assuming the leaked result is accurate) ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone is proof of doping?

6. How reliable is the ion ratio test as proof of uptake of exogenis testosterone?

7. Could any of the medications that Landis was taking have contributed to the result?

8. Are there any plausible scenarios whereby Landis could have received drugs that could explain these results without his knowledge?
Click to expand...
I don't know. What I do know is that the probability of a confession sometime later is relatively high - so far, the story has developed very much the usual way.

I didn't do it.
It's natural for me. Not usually, but that day it was.
Not my natural testosterone?
Something I ate or drank.
Not in food or drinks?
Someone must have drugged me without my knowledge.
.......
OK - my coach gave it to me.
I didn't know what it was.
I trusted him

Why not confess now and get it over with, like a gentleman?

OSLO, Aug 5 (Reuters) - Norwegian sprinter Aham Okeke faces a life ban from competition after being caught and then confessing to using the male sex hormone testosterone, anti-doping officials said on Saturday.
Click to expand...
 
Wow, Norway has a sprinter. Being of partially Norwegian ancestry it is difficult for me to imagine somebody related to me being a sprinter. Maybe its my English genes that really slow me down, or maybe the Swedish ones.

ETA: As to the idea he's really guilty: I'm such a sap. I just tend to believe people when they claim they're innocent. I am still holding out hope. But this is just really not looking good for him. Still there is the argument that Testosterone would not have been all that beneficial taken on a short term basis like it seems to have been here. Do we know anything about how many drug tests he had leading up to this one and what the results were?
 
Last edited:
davefoc said:
Wow, Norway has a sprinter. Being of partially Norwegian ancestry it is difficult for me to imagine somebody related to me being a sprinter. Maybe its my English genes that really slow me down, or maybe the Swedish ones.
Click to expand...
Well, I don't think Aham Okeke's ancestry is very Norwegian, if that clears things up. :p Norway did in fact have a decent sprinter (top European level) who was ethnically Norwegian a few of years ago (Geir Moen). At least he looked Norwegian, I have not checked his family tree. :p Disclaimer: You may not call me a racist because of this post.
 
davefoc said:
Wow, Norway has a sprinter. Being of partially Norwegian ancestry it is difficult for me to imagine somebody related to me being a sprinter. Maybe its my English genes that really slow me down, or maybe the Swedish ones.
Click to expand...
Well, he's born and raised in Nigeria. On the other hand, a "real" Norwegian won the 800 meters in Atlanta ...

davefoc said:
ETA: As to the idea he's really guilty: I'm such a sap. I just tend to believe people when they claim they're innocent. I am still holding out hope. But this is just really not looking good for him.
Click to expand...
Always the same excuses ... in doping cases, the evidence comes first (hey, what's this in your blood/urine?), the explanations come later (I had no idea, I thought they were vitamins, and the label said "safe if not tested within 8 hours" ...).

davefoc said:
Still there is the argument that Testosterone would not have been all that beneficial taken on a short term basis like it seems to have been here. Do we know anything about how many drug tests he had leading up to this one and what the results were?
Click to expand...
Judging by the way he performed, it certainly didn't hurt him.
 
I feel really badly. Because it was such a good story, guy comes from behind. And hey, he may have justified any "cheating" as he has a serious hip injury. He may have felt he was kind of leveling the playing field.


A lot of people live their lives with this, "life isn't fair, so whatever I can do to make it more fair for myself is fine."

Not good.
 
kittynh said:
A lot of people live their lives with this, "life isn't fair, so whatever I can do to make it more fair for myself is fine."
Click to expand...
And I am, in a way, fine with that. As long as they are honest about it.

However, if you participate in a sport with certain rules, follow them or be known as a cheater.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom