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#1 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Maybe itīs proofable if there where bombs
or not. William Rodriguez talked (and (s)ome others i dont remind) about the elevator doors, wich were blown open. Working 20 Years in the Building, William and other people should remind which specific elevator doors were blown. If not all elevators did reach entireley to the floors where the planes hit, these doors shouldīnt have been blown during the fireball walking down the shafts, am i right? It would be helpfull to have blueprints or someone who knows the towers like Willi. Regards, Oliver |
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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No one? Sorry for bumbing
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#3 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2005
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I responded in the other thread. I'll repost here.
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#4 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Not all elevators served all floors but the shafts went from top to bottom. The only floors the shafts could've been topped off at were the maintenance floors and I doubt they did. Further the shafts were enclosed in 2 layers of drywall, NOT concrete or other material. This means when the plane plowed into the core it probably blew the walls off all the shafts in the area it hit (if they had doors or not). At this point fireballs could go down any shaft and blow out doors on any floor (or the walls if there were no floors). Here are some typical floor plans. I believe the big shafts are the express elevators you could take to a sky lobby, where you would catch the local elevator to the exact floor you needed. The smaller shafts are the local elevators. Note by flipping the restroom locations on each floor you can expose different sets of elevators to exit on that floor. ![]() ![]() |
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#5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
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Hello Kevin,
so any shaft did go from the top to the bottom, am i right? Is this for sure? I swear iīve seen an computer generated animation in one of the 9/11 movies out there with the elevators shown and explained, but i donīt know wich it was. There must be some very logic proof to this bomb thing. Please keep this in mind if you read some stuff about the elevators. I try my best to get further information. |
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#6 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2005
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technically not all the shafts had to go all the way up. 2/3 may have only gone part way, but I'm not sure they constructed it that way. Below is a vertical representation. Notice that the building is divided in 3rds and then 4 banks of elevators serve each 3rd. They could've topped off the elevator shafts for the ones serving lower floors in that section, but I don't think they did.
The reason I don't think they did is because I think they located all the elevator equipment on the technical services floors and the elevator cables would've needed to go from that floor to the elevators. If they had topped off the elevators the equipment would've needed to be located on various floors and special power run to those floors and maintenance done on the occupied floors annoying the occupants. They also could've sealed the shafts at the technical floors, but again I don't think they did just because I don't see a reason they would (they probably did have drywall around the shafts to maintain air pressure). ![]() |
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Thank you very much, Kevin.
Iīve found that video about the shafts and also a bigger version of the illustration on wikipedia Illustration: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Arrangment.jpg The video was: Rise and Fall of an American Icon Quote: "The Tube design was an innovated concept, but in practise, the elevators would have taken to much space. Seeking a solution, designers devided each tower into three parts, or zones. Each with itīs own skylobby. People would be able to get to work by taking an express, and then a local elevator" "---to much space---" This pretty sounds like the local elevator shafts did not went all the way from the top to the bottom. |
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#8 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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General Question:
Whoīs the most familiar person in here regarding the the two towers and itīs inner structure? |
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#9 |
Banned
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#10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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But? :-D
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#11 |
Goddess of Legaltainment
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35,959
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William Rodriguez has changed his story since he brought a lawsuit against the government.
His initial story was much different than his later versions of events. I wouldn't put too much stock in him if I were you. By the way, there is a grave misconception about the layout of the elevators in the WTC towers. People look at a schematic that has been widely distributed and think that it actually shows all of the elevators but if you bother to count them, it shows no more than 15 of the 99 or 100 that were actually in each tower. The schematic is merely representative, not comprehensive. The drawing I refer to is this: ![]() For instance, there were 12 elevator cars that ran express from the 78th floor to the lobby (powered by a massive bank of elevator machines on the 81st floor) but many people think that there is only 1 because the representational drawing only shows 1. This is a good example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". It is beyond dispute that there were 12, not 1, and it is beyond dispute that the drawing is merely representational, but people who do not delve beyond the surface (read: conspiracy theorists) will misinterpret reality all day long rather than actually do any real research themselves. People also are mistaken about the shafts, probably because they look at that same graphic and do not realize that on each floor, there were multiple elevator cars, not just one as depicted in the graphic. As I understand it, the shafts themselves were uninterrupted from top to bottom, even though most of the elevators did not stop on every floor. The local elevator cars, then, could be "stacked" within the core space, with each of the local elevator cars programmed to stop only on certain floors. For instance, imagine that some of the local elevators stopped only on floors 20 through 30. The shafts would still have to run from the lobby, obviously, and could not just magically begin on floor 20. It is the "stacking" arrangement that allowed them to fit 100 elevators into the core. Moreover, the bulk of those shafts were open rather than sealed (but I'll get into the details of that later rather than put too much into this post), such that there were numerous elevators among the various lift mechanisms that were all in open "shafts" side by side ... i.e. not "hermetically sealed" or even non-hermetically sealed for that matter. Also, remember that the entire diagram above is of the CORE, not the building, and remember that the rest of the space within the core where the elevators are located is just empty space, with nothing to stop the flow of liquids, such as jet fuel. The drawing may be misleading to those who don't know that because they will probably erroneously assume that lines drawn to delineate elevation are actual "floors" as in concrete and such, when, of course, there was no such division in the core. The lines are there only to denote elevation, not structure in the core, which was, of course, empty other than elevator shafts and staircases. Repeat: remember, this is just the core - the out of sight, out of mind, space with nothing but stairs and elevators in it, and not the rentable space of the building. I am told that all of the shafts actually ran from top to bottom, which makes perfect sense and no other arrangement would make any sense, frankly. I will add more later about the mythical "hermetically sealed" shafts that the CTers like to cite. I am just awaiting confirmation of a couple of additional facts before posting it here. |
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#12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
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Hello Lash,
i really hope that youīre able to reach someone regarding this shaft-question and also someone who was there and saw wich doors were blown out. What about the official documents, or "Yamasaki and Associates". Does this firm still exist? Iīm sorry that my english skills are not good enough to explain the issue in a plausible, easy way to call these people for my own. Regards, Oliver |
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#13 |
Goddess of Legaltainment
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35,959
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Oliver,
Your English skills are fine. Read my post again. It is ludicrous to suggest that there was only "one elevator shaft" that ran the length of the building. As I said above, CTers base their nonsensical claim on a drawing that, according to their interpretation, would mean that there were only 15 elevator cars, not the 100 elevator cars that actually existed, and their inability to research facts. But that's not terribly surpising since reality is not their strong point. |
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#14 |
Goddess of Legaltainment
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35,959
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...
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#15 |
Goddess of Legaltainment
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#16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I still have problems to realize how these shafts have
looked like but youīre right, i thought the illustration shows the whole building and the specific arrangements between the shafts. I have to read your post again to get a usable "picture" of the shafts configuration. Who said that there was just one shaft? The LC-Video? I remember that they talked about airsealed elevator, but i donīt remind of only one shaft. Thank you for your help to get thru of this, Oliver |
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#17 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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By the way - iīm to new to the 9/11 issue to
know about William Rodriguez initial story. What were the differences between them concerning the elevators? I try to find the whole initial story of him later. |
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I have some serious problems with the technical nature of
your description - besides the translation, LashL. You said that there were 12 elevator cars that ran express from the 78th floor to the lobby (powered by a massive bank of elevator machines on the 81st floor. I got this. Where were the mashinery to the local elevators located if the shafts were uninterrupted? Also on top of the building, right? How is it possible to stack the elevators? I still have these old style elevators in my mind: Mashinery on top (or level) and the wires connected to the cabins/cars - nothing between, no stacking at all. You said: "It is ludicrous to suggest that there was only " one elevator shaft" that ran the length of the building." and: "remember that the entire diagram above is of the CORE, not the building, and remember that the rest of the space within the core where the elevators are located is just empty space" Sorry, i missed something between these two arguments. The first description says, that there was no "one elevator shaft" but your second description seems to say the opposite - that the whole core was empty space with the elevators within this empty space? Iīm really sorry to have difficulties to draw this picture in my mind but for some, i think linguistic reasons, i canīt puzzle it together. |
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#19 |
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#20 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#21 |
Banned
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#22 |
Vegan Cannibal
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I left a pineapple grenade under my pillow and all I got was a waffle pattern on my face in the morning.
Question: Should I try a potato-masher grenade? |
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#23 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#24 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#25 |
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#26 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#27 |
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other elevator empty space.
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#28 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Believe me - if i get this straight, i will make an
illustration out of it - or a 3d Scene/Rendering. (Edit): Well, i try to find out for myself. Maybe i get a better view into the Towers studying the official reports concerning the internal structure. Regards, Oliver ![]() |
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#31 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#32 |
Banned
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Kidding aside, there's a nice animatic here:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/...tor-usat_x.htm Click on the "interactive documentary" called "Elevators:Escape route or death trap". It kinda make us see in 3D how the elevator shafts are in relation with one another. ETA:The elevator shafts in the center seem to have been the ones going all the way up. |
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#33 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2005
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There was some at the top of the building, but there was also equipment on each of the technical services floors.
It isn't necessary to have a closed floor to locate elevator equipment. They may have placed it on a beam (I've seen this in a couple of buildings) or they can locate the heavy stuff off to the side and have a pully over the shaft. I think what you may be failing to realize is that the local elevator shafts were continuous all the way up, but had 3 elevators in each shaft. The cables for the elevator terminated on the technical services floor, and above it the shaft continued with another elevator in it, controlled from the technical services floor above it. |
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#34 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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Doesn't each elevator car have a counter-weight attached that travels a separate shaft?
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
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To Pardalis: Thank you for the enlightening article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/...tor-usat_x.htm I never realized what horror it must have been with the people who were trapped and the people who tried to rescue them. Elevator animation: http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/new...2002/flash.htm Let me sum up what iīve learned so far to get rid of some missunderstandings conecerning the elevators/&shafts: (Thanks for your help, too, Kevin) There were multiple main shafts within the towers for the big elevators. Each of these shafts contained multiple elevators. These multiple mainshafts went from the bottom up to different stages of the building. The highest shaft ended at the top floor while the "shortest shaft" ended at the second skylobby. Underneath the skylobbies, the "technical sevice"-floors contained the mashinery for the elevators - but these floors didīnt interrupt the shafts, (maybe) because of some type of open installed "deflection pulleys" - right so far? On the other side there were smaller shafts for the local, also smaller elevators. These shafts didīnt run thru the whole building - to safe space. So these shafts must had their own mashinery - beside the technical service-areas, also right? Iīve been told that "Gravy" used to be very familiar with the towers. if someone met him - maybe he want to join the discussion about the "lobby-bomb-theorie", too - if there wasnīt allready a thread about it. My next step is to study the NIST-Reports but i keep an eye to the thread. Thank you for your help so far, Oliver |
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#36 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2005
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It doesn't have to travel in a seperate shaft, in fact I would be surprised if they put them in seperate shafts anymore (too expensive in terms of space.)
some examples here with the weights in the same shaft: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Elevator.html |
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#37 |
Goddess of Legaltainment
Join Date: Aug 2006
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On various floors; some around 46 which controlled the bank of express elevators that ran from the 44th floor sky lobby to the ground; others on 81 as set out above; some on other floors throughout the building; some at the top to control the elevators that serviced the top floors.
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And, yes, I can see why you had some difficulty trying to reconcile my statement that there was not only one shaft with my statement about the empty space in the core - I did not articulate it very well. I will try to explain it more clearly below. Most people think of an elevator "shaft" as an enclosed space that houses only one elevator, and think that every elevator is enclosed within its own "shaft" completely separate from other elevator cars. While that is often the case in older and smaller buildings, it is not the case in modern highrise buildings and it wasn't the case in the WTC towers with its ~100 elevator cars per tower and its banks of elevators servicing different floors, but my response was referring to the misnomer about the "shafts" in the way that most people think of them. I should have said that it is ludicrous to suggest that jet fuel could only travel down the path of a single elevator car that happened to run express from top to bottom because there is so much empty space from top to bottom throughout the core that the fuel would not be confined to a single "shaft" in the sense that the term is so often misconstrued. If you've been in a modern skyscraper, you probably know that from the lobby, you have to choose among the banks of elevators to get to the floor that you wish to reach, and that only the elevators in a particular bank of elevators service certain floors. I.e. here's a hypothetical: if you want to get to the 54th floor, you have to use the bank of elevators that stop only on floors 48-58, for instance. You can't get there by using the bank of the elevators that stop only on floors 18-28, nor can you get there by using the bank of elevators that run express from the ground to, say, the 78th floor. In each elevator bank, there will be several elevators side by side, and although from the inside of any given elevator car, there is the illusion that it is entirely encapsulated and travelling in its own separate enclosed shaft, that is not the case in buildings like these. In any given bank of elevators, let's say 6 in a row as was typical in the twin towers, (x2 for opposite sides of the landing for a total of 12 per bank with 6 on each side of the landing) the elevator cars were not actually operating in sealed shafts separate from each other. I am led to believe that only some of the express elevators, (that is to say, only some of the approximately 26-28 in each tower that ran from 0-44, 0-78 and 0-107, including freight elevators) were individually and separately enclosed in separate shafts (although I have not been able to confirm the numbers yet) and that the majority of the ~100 elevators in each tower did not have individually enclosed shafts. Anyway, I am going to try to tackle Photoshop in order to explain it better than I have so far. Hopefully, it will make more sense then. Plus, as noted above, I am waiting for confirmation on some details about the separation of the elevators etc. (My source is a FDNY fire commander with a specialty in high rise fires and high rise fire safety which he also studies and lectures on but he's been away this past week and will be very busy this weekend, needless to say, so I'm not sure when to expect his response). If I can't figure out the software over the weekend, I will copy and print the drawings, make my additions/explanations, scan them and post them instead. EDIT TO ADD: Oh, I see now that some of the questions have already been answered - sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread before beginning to formulate my response. Please ignore whatever is redundant. |
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#38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
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Actually i understand the elevator-stacking right now,
but i feel unsure about the shafts itself. Did they went all the way thru the building or were some shorter and some long as the towers itselfs? BTW: "counter-weight" I remember "U-Form"-counter-weights in elevators that move on the outside >around< the elevator - sharing the same space as the elevator. |
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#39 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
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Thank you very much for your help, LashL.
![]() You donīt have to make an illustration - i think i see things much more clearer now. One thing i didīnt understand right now is, were >all< the elevator- shafts from the top to the bottom, and were they all "un-interrupted", sharing the same shafts. If this is the case, then it sounds very logic to me, that the lobby had such a destruction - "like a bomb". Thereīs a discussion about the bomb-theorie on RBN-radio right now: http://www.rbnlive.com/listen32k.pls |
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#40 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
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Hi, Oliver. Glad to help.
The explosion in the north tower elevator shafts, which damaged several floors, the lobby, and basement levels, was caused by jet fuel. Following are descriptions from several north tower survivors. I've bolded descriptions that mention jet fuel or kerosene (Jet-A fuel is basically kerosene). I've also bolded other passages that I felt were interesting. 91st Floor
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