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Questions for 9/11 Truthers

Yes, yes, there is very, very thin evidence that one of the hijackers may have had a gun. We all doubt it, but this is nothing we haven't heard before. Old news.

What I'd like to see, if you feel like you're being swarmed, is how having a gun => Israeldidit. I totally fail to see the connection.

oooooooooh that's EASY!

If he can prove they managed to get actual guns on board (those things that fire bullets out of the pointy end, rather than something which could be made to look like a gun from a distance in a confused and rapidly changing situation) then he can claim that the security at the airports allowed the guns to get on board.

Then he can go on to speculate that either the US government allowed this security breach, or that the companies contracted for security allowed it.

He can then speculate that the hijackers must have been from a country in the mid-east which was an ally of the US govt, or could have a controlling interest in the security companies.

and...voila! he has a jewish conspiracy.

of course, that still leaves the rather absurd notion of israeli operatives killing themselves to further a cause which had no gaurantee of being advanced by their actions.

I suppose mind control might be possible..........
 
I sure am glad I'm not one who has to suppress this compelling evidence of guns. It would really bother me to have to somehow figure out how to dismiss this testimony from two intelligent, credible witnesses.

I'll let others address the question of the reliability of "intelligent, credible witnesses" who are under extreme stress. I'll just mention that they're not as reliable as most people think.

What I'll do is suggest, that even if there may have been some guns on the plane, you still haven't shown why that indicates that AQ could not have pulled off this job. Simply asserting that they could not have gotten guns on the planes doesn't cut it, as we know that other terrorists have gotten guns onto planes previously. Again, what, other than your own biases, indicates that the official story is wrong in it's most important details?

And even if you could make a case that AQ couldn't do it, why do you then assume it was Israel? Why not Canada, or Britain, or France, or New Zealand? Those Kiwi bastards have been plotting against us for years! :)
 
I was actually serious.

Like I already tried to point out, I have no doubt that Israeli commandos, in close quarters, are pretty darn dangerous with knives. This whole "they must have had a gun therefore they're Israelis masquerading as Arabs" thing just doesn't make any sense at all!
 
and i was being (semi) serious too.

A-train thinks the issue of the guns points to complicity of either the US govt or the airport security.

That's why he doesn't think arabs did it because he doesn't believe arabs could have breached the security

and since the descriptions are of men of mid-east appearance, it must be the joos

EVERYTHING hinges on the question of guns, just as lyte trip thinks everything hinges on the north of citgo 'evidence'.

It's flimsy in the extreme, but it gives the woowoos hope that their cause isn't slipping away from them.

Of course that avoids the reality which is that their cause is slipping faster than paris hiltons knickers on a saturday night.
 
I was actually serious.

Like I already tried to point out, I have no doubt that Israeli commandos, in close quarters, are pretty darn dangerous with knives. This whole "they must have had a gun therefore they're Israelis masquerading as Arabs" thing just doesn't make any sense at all!

It isn't making sense because you're oversimplifying my argument and jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. My original contention was that the plot was far more sophisticated than anything a Gulf Arab group like al-Qaeda is capable of. One piece of evidence in favor of that is that the hijackers had guns, pointing to a larger conspiracy with connections in the airport security apparatus. That should have have lead to an extensive investigation of ICTS (International Consultants for Targeted Security), a foreign firm that provided security services for all three airports involved, and is the owner of the Huntleigh firm that controlled security at Logan. The owner of ICTS at the time was Menachem Atzmon, a Likud party member who was convicted of fraud in Israel in 1996.

Besides the guns, there's plenty of other evidence pointing to a sophisticated conspiracy beyond the means of al-Qaeda.
 
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Except even silencers probably wouldn't be good enough. A silenced gunshot would have shown up on the CVR, unless it was a silenced .22, in which case it would have been far more trouble than it was worth.

You're absolutely right, a silenced gunshot would have shown up on the cockpit voice recorder. Maybe that's why we have not been allowed to listen to them? Of course, I'm sure you realize, none of the contents of any of the CVRs have been released to the public. We are told that all the black boxes from the two WTC planes were not recovered-- despite accounts from several firefighters who say they found the boxes and turned them over to the FBI.

The only CVR that anyone from the public has been able to listen to is the one from UAL93, played for a private audience of victims' families. Even some of them suspected the CVR had been tampered with. This was the CVR that somehow captured conversation among the heroes discussing how to break open the cockpit door, despite the fact that a CVR can only record what goes on inside the cockpit.
 
I don't need any evidence for silencers. I meticulously presented the evidence that there were guns aboard, based on the phone calls of Tom Burnett and Betty Ong, and the initial FAA report based on Ong's call. Most of you have decided to reject it, I think because it doesn't fit in to your own official conspiracy theory. Someone pointed out that if guns were used, passengers would have heard it and reported it in their phone calls. Well, two of them did. But nonetheless I pointed out that the guns could have had silencers.

There are some guys over at LCF as dumb as you are. Like Batman-guy. Are you the batman guy over at LCF?

Did you get this junk from LC, or are you just making up lies on your own?

Where is your source?
 
It isn't making sense because you're oversimplifying my argument and jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. My original contention was that the plot was far more sophisticated than anything a Gulf Arab group like al-Qaeda is capable of. One piece of evidence in favor of that is that the hijackers had guns, pointing to a larger conspiracy with connections in the airport security apparatus. That should have have lead to an extensive investigation of ICTS (International Consultants for Targeted Security), a foreign firm that provided security services for all three airports involved, and is the owner of the Huntleigh firm that controlled security at Logan. The owner of ICTS at the time was Menachem Atzmon, a Likud party member who was convicted of fraud in Israel in 1996.

Besides the guns, there's plenty of other evidence pointing to a sophisticated conspiracy beyond the means of al-Qaeda.

Bring on the evidence. Lay all you facts on the table and let us see them. Do you have facts to back up your stuff? Come on. Proof?
 
It isn't making sense because you're oversimplifying my argument and jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. My original contention was that the plot was far more sophisticated than anything a Gulf Arab group like al-Qaeda is capable of. One piece of evidence in favor of that is that the hijackers had guns, pointing to a larger conspiracy with connections in the airport security apparatus. That should have have lead to an extensive investigation of ICTS (International Consultants for Targeted Security), a foreign firm that provided security services for all three airports involved, and is the owner of the Huntleigh firm that controlled security at Logan. The owner of ICTS at the time was Menachem Atzmon, a Likud party member who was convicted of fraud in Israel in 1996.

Really?

I suppose getting 10,000 battle hardened veterans of the Afghani Campaign together to over throw an invading army in a neighbouring state doesn't count then?

No I am not talking about Afghanistan I am talking about the formal offer that was made by OBL to Prince Sultan, the Saudi Arabian Minister of defence to commit these people to taking on Saddam Hussein’s Army that had just invaded Kuwait, rather than allow US and coalition troops into Saudi Arabia before the start of the first Gulf War.

Keep laughing at them pal, keep belittling them,after all these people are totally not capable of getting 19 guys into the US to launch a terrorist attack.
 
We are told that all the black boxes from the two WTC planes were not recovered-- despite accounts from several firefighters who say they found the boxes and turned them over to the FBI.

Try investigating that quote!
 
A-Train - More claims without a shred of evidence to support them. You are just another clueless CTist with a political agenda and a soap box.

I'm curious, what kicks do you get by being embarrassed here? You claim you want to help us open our eyes, but you've been told numerous times that our eyes are open to evidence, but not baseless claims, yet you persist.

Do you have a job? If you do, in that job are allowed to make baseless claims?
Did you go to school? If so, were you allowed to answer all the questions with simple opinions?

I'm just trying to understand what motivates someone like you.
 
You're absolutely right, a silenced gunshot would have shown up on the cockpit voice recorder. Maybe that's why we have not been allowed to listen to them? Of course, I'm sure you realize, none of the contents of any of the CVRs have been released to the public. We are told that all the black boxes from the two WTC planes were not recovered-- despite accounts from several firefighters who say they found the boxes and turned them over to the FBI.

The only CVR that anyone from the public has been able to listen to is the one from UAL93, played for a private audience of victims' families. Even some of them suspected the CVR had been tampered with. This was the CVR that somehow captured conversation among the heroes discussing how to break open the cockpit door, despite the fact that a CVR can only record what goes on inside the cockpit.

It seems your slowly slipping into traditional CT country. Now, in addition to phantom Israeli suicide agents using guns planted by an Israeli connected security firm, which guns were ID'd in surpressed phone testimonies (which suppression would involve the people who took the calls), you're also having large elements of the FBI and the NTSB conspiring to conceal evidence of said Israeli involvement by withholding or altering the cockpit recordings, and to suppress evidence allegedly supplied by some firefighters.

How much further into the Jones et al. CT territory will you go, before you admit you're not all that different?



And he was looking so promising at the start.......
 
you're also having large elements of the FBI and the NTSB conspiring to conceal evidence of said Israeli involvement by withholding or altering the cockpit recordings, and to suppress evidence allegedly supplied by some firefighters.

I am not the one having anyone withhold or conceal evidence! This information has not been released, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with me. If I am mistaken, and it has been released, please let me know. I will admit my error. Tell me where I can find a transcript of the CVR from FLs 77, 11 and 175.

Remember the context of my comment. Someone else ridiculed my suggestion that guns with silencers were used by pointing out the noise would have been recorded by the CVRs. I replied by saying he was right, but that none of us have heard those CVRs because they have either been destroyed in the crashes (FL11 & 175), or have not been released to the
public (FL77 & 93). Why have the CVRs from the last two flights not been released to us? I don't know.
 
I am not the one having anyone withhold or conceal evidence! This information has not been released, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with me. If I am mistaken, and it has been released, please let me know. I will admit my error. Tell me where I can find a transcript of the CVR from FLs 77, 11 and 175.

Remember the context of my comment. Someone else ridiculed my suggestion that guns with silencers were used by pointing out the noise would have been recorded by the CVRs. I replied by saying he was right, but that none of us have heard those CVRs because they have either been destroyed in the crashes (FL11 & 175), or have not been released to the
public (FL77 & 93). Why have the CVRs from the last two flights not been released to us? I don't know.

Just two points here. So what if they had guns, Are you saying Arab terrorists lack the where withall to smuggle guns onto a plane?

The Palestinian hijack of Air France Flight 139 is brought to an end at Entebbe Airport, Uganda by Operation Entebbe: Israeli commandos assault the building holding the hijackers and hostages killing all Palestinian hijackers and rescuing 105 persons, almost all Israeli hostages; three passengers and one commando are killed.

1997: Lufthansa Flight 181 (also known as the Landshut) was hijacked by Palestinian terrorists on a flight from Palma de Mallorca to Frankfurt. The ordeal ended in Mogadishu when GSG 9 commandos stormed the plane. Three hijackers were killed and 86 hostages were freed. The pilot was
killed. The hand of German Red Army Faction was suspected.

the defense minister of UAE negotiated the release of the passengers. It was related to the Sikh secessionist struggle in the Indian state of Punjab.
  • 1984: Lebanese Shi'a hijackers divert a Kuwait Airways flight to Tehran. The plane is taken by Iranian security forces who were dressed as custodial staff.[1]
  • 1985: Palestinians take over EgyptAir Flight 648 and fly it to Malta. All together, 60 people died, most of them when Egyptian commandos stormed the aircraft.
  • 1995: Iranian defector and flight attendant Rida Garari hijacked Kish Air flight 707, which landed in Israel. No casualties.
  • 1996: Hemus Air Tu-154 aircraft was hijacked by the Palestinian Nadir Abdallah, flying from Beirut to Varna. The hijacker demamded that the aircraft be refuelled and given passage to Oslo, Norway after landing at Varna Airport. All of the 150 passengers were freed at Varna, afterwards the crew continued the flight to Oslo.
  • 1986: 22 people are killed when Pakistani security forces storm Pan Am Flight 73 at Karachi, carrying 400 passengers and crew after a 16-hour siege.
  • 1988: Two Kuwaitis are killed in 1988 when Shi'a gunmen hijack a Kuwait Airways flight from Thailand and force it to fly to Algiers with more than 110 people on board; the hijack ends after 16 days when the hijackers free the remaining hostages and are allowed to leave Algiers.
Secondly Al Qaeda the terrorist group you feel is incapable of commiting this out has also managed to
Yemen 1992

The first militant attack that al-Qaeda allegedly carried out consisted of three bombings at hotels where American troops were staying in Aden, Yemen, on December 29 1992. A Yemeni and an Austrian tourist died in one bombing.

Somalia 1993

There are disputed claims that al-Qaeda operatives assisted in the shooting down of U.S. helicopters and the killing of U.S. servicemen in Somalia in 1993. (see: Battle of Mogadishu)

Operation Bojinka

Ramzi Yousef, who was involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing (though probably not an al-Qaeda member at the time), and Khalid Sheik Mohammed planned Operation Bojinka, a plot to destroy airplanes in mid-Pacific flight using explosives. An apartment fire in Manila, Philippines exposed the plan before it could be carried out. Yousef was arrested, but Mohammed evaded capture until 2003.

Saudi Arabia 1995-96

Al-Qaeda is often listed as a suspect in two bombings in Saudi Arabia in 1995 and 1996: the bombing at a U.S. military facility in Riyadh in November 1995, which killed two people from India and five Americans, and the June 1996 Khobar Towers bombing, which killed American military personnel in Dhahran. However, these attacks are usually ascribed to Hizbullah.

1998 U.S. embassy bombings

Al-Qaeda is believed to have conducted the bombings in August 1998 of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing more than 200 people and injuring more than 5,000 others.

1999 and 2000 attacks

In December 1999 and into 2000, al-Qaeda planned attacks against U.S. and Israeli tourists visiting Jordan for millennial celebrations; however, Jordanian authorities thwarted the planned attacks and put 28 suspects on trial. Part of this plot included the planned bombing of the Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California, but this plot was foiled when bomber Ahmed Ressam was caught at the US-Canadian border with explosives in the trunk of his car. Al-Qaeda also planned to attack the USS The Sullivans on January 3, 2000, but the effort failed due to too much weight being put on the small boat meant to bomb the ship.
Despite the setback with the USS The Sullivans, al-Qaeda succeeded in bombing a U.S. warship in October 2000 with the USS Cole bombing. German police foiled a plot to destroy a cathedral in Strasbourg, France in December 2000. See: Strasbourg cathedral bombing plot

 
I am not the one having anyone withhold or conceal evidence! This information has not been released, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with me. If I am mistaken, and it has been released, please let me know. I will admit my error. Tell me where I can find a transcript of the CVR from FLs 77, 11 and 175.

Remember the context of my comment. Someone else ridiculed my suggestion that guns with silencers were used by pointing out the noise would have been recorded by the CVRs. I replied by saying he was right, but that none of us have heard those CVRs because they have either been destroyed in the crashes (FL11 & 175), or have not been released to the public (FL77 & 93). Why have the CVRs from the last two flights not been released to us? I don't know.

You theory requires them to be withholding the CVRs because the evidence on them would prove that guns were used, rather than them being withheld out of respect for the families of those who were recorded on the CVRs.

If the CVRs were withheld for the reasons you seem to suggest, it inevitably follows that some elements of the FBI and NTSB are knowingly particpating in a coverup. And it would have to be large elements - anyone in the investigations who would normally have access to such things, which I expect would be a large number. It would also start to encompass everyone involved in the 9/11 Commission report, who acted to cover-up this cover-up.

So now we're back to large portions of the US government being involved in the attacks - which doesn't seem that different from what other CTists have claimed.

Unless, in the "context of your comment", you're just starting to pull things out of your ass, in order to allow you to continue believing as you do, without worrying about the holes in your hypothesis.
 
The Inflationary Model of Conspiracy Theories

You're absolutely right, a silenced gunshot would have shown up on the cockpit voice recorder. Maybe that's why we have not been allowed to listen to them? Of course, I'm sure you realize, none of the contents of any of the CVRs have been released to the public. We are told that all the black boxes from the two WTC planes were not recovered-- despite accounts from several firefighters who say they found the boxes and turned them over to the FBI.

The only CVR that anyone from the public has been able to listen to is the one from UAL93, played for a private audience of victims' families. Even some of them suspected the CVR had been tampered with. This was the CVR that somehow captured conversation among the heroes discussing how to break open the cockpit door, despite the fact that a CVR can only record what goes on inside the cockpit.

Your story is disintegrating. Before I explain, let me briefly point out that we discussed the "missing" black boxes here, and the reports that they were found are simply a lie; and that a Cockpit Voice Recorder, commonly referred to as a CVR, is fairly sensitive and indeed quite capable of picking up yells and other conversation outside the cockpit door, particularly when hundreds of people are willing to replay every scrap over and over and over again until they figure out what's on tape.

Let me also say that I do appreciate that you, A-Train, have actually provided us some details on what you think happened. Very few Troothers ever do this, most are content to complain about anomalies without attempting any explanation at all. You still haven't brought much in the way of evidence, but perhaps we'll work on that next.

------

Now, then, let me explain what's going on with your theory. There's a fine line in the Scientific Method, one that you have crossed. I refer to the fine line between refining a hypothesis and making excuses.

Virtually all hypotheses can use refinement, whether it's in the form of added details, more explicit explanations, moving assumptions from merely "credible" to "supported by evidence," and sharpening numbers. This is true of the so-called Official Theory of Sept. 11th as well -- starting from the rough hypothesis of "19 terrorists hijacked four airliners and crashed them into three buildings," it has since been refined in terms of who the terrorists were, how the planes were hijacked, what preparations led up to the event, why safeguards failed, and precisely how buildings performed after being hit.

Refining hypotheses is a necessary part of science, and should always be done when new or conflicting facts are discovered. Sometimes, we cannot add precise refinements, but must instead make assumptions. This is a subjective process, hence the fine line. So how do we evaluate our assumptions?

Some measures are simple -- an assumption that violates all known physical laws is a poor one, for instance. Others, such as "Occam's Razor" or the observation that simpler assumptions are in general preferred, are difficult to evaluate on their own. The simplest hypothesis is not always the correct one.

But, in this case, we don't have to evaluate assumptions on their own, because we have multiple hypotheses, all being tested against the same body of facts. An assumption that strengthens one hypothesis against those facts is a good one. An assumption that evades the known facts, or depends on new facts that are not readily available, is not. This is just a way of preventing a factual test from applying to the hypothesis.

The latter case is an "excuse." Excuses are bad assumptions because the only purpose they serve is to keep viable an otherwise untenable hypothesis. If there are no valid hypotheses currently in the running, then speculation is warranted, but if there are, we should simply accept that the other hypotheses are better. We can still continue to look for new facts, of course, and we need not completely abandon our own pet hypothesis, but we cannot use these excuses without acknowledging that they are a serious flaw.

As an example, consider two hypotheses, what I will call the Official Theory (OT) and the A-Train Theory (ATT), held up to new facts. (This isn't really a new fact, but let's treat it as one to examine the process.)

New Fact: A small fraction of phone calls made from the hijacked aircraft suggest that firearms may have been on board.

OT: We need to add the assumption that the reports may have been mistaken, as is often the case, similar to mistaken reports of bombs on the planes. Alternately, we need to consider that firearms may have been present, in which case there is an additional security failure that needs investigating.

ATT: We need to add the fact that guns were taken on board the aircraft. This means there was an additional security failure that needs investigating.​

So far, so good, right? Ah, but these assumptions have consequences.

Consequence: There is no record of gunfire on the recovered Cockpit Voice Recorders.

OT: Per our theory, there should have been no need for gunfire on board the aircraft. Guns, if present, could have merely been an additional deterrent used to aid the hijackers in taking control of the aircraft.

ATT: The guns must have had silencers.​

Aha. There's our first excuse. There's no evidence for silencers at all, this is pure speculation -- and it's speculation that needs to be true in order for the competing theory to remain credible. Let's continue:

Consequence: Even with a silencer, gunfire would probably have been audible on the Cockpit Voice Recorder.

OT: As before, there is no need for gunfire, silenced or otherwise. This fact does not challenge our hypothesis.

ATT: In that case, the CVR records must have been suppressed or altered.​

There's the second excuse, and it's a big one. In order for that to be true, you need to believe that many people consciously altered a CVR record, interfering in a supremely important investigation -- and many, many more people let it happen, failed to report inconsistencies, or were simply duped.

This is not impossible in the strict sense of the word, but it's hardly likely, and nobody should accept this assumption without some pretty hard evidence behind it. Already we see a "snowball effect" as the excuses get bigger and bigger, and the Conspiracy Theory grows along with it.

Thus, my Inflationary Model of Conspiracy Theories, stated thus:

RANT! "A Good Theory can be distinguished from a Conspiracy Theory as follows: When repeatedly exposed to scrutiny, the Conspiracy Theory requires more and more people involved, and more and more extraordinary events in order to prevent self-contradiction. A Good Theory, in contrast, remains approximately static in complexity as it is refined."


This is the same principle that makes little kids such rotten liars. Whenever they fib, they don't have enough experience to make things consistent, so they throw out any old thing that pops into their head. Upon questioning it doesn't match, the lies get bigger, and so on.

Back to A-Train, if you can figure out how to explain your theory without bringing the whole FBI, FAA, NTSB, and the nation of Israel into it, then please do. But if you can't, then I'm afraid your hypothesis isn't worth a thing.
 
It isn't making sense because you're oversimplifying my argument and jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. My original contention was that the plot was far more sophisticated than anything a Gulf Arab group like al-Qaeda is capable of. One piece of evidence in favor of that is that the hijackers had guns, pointing to a larger conspiracy with connections in the airport security apparatus. That should have have lead to an extensive investigation of ICTS (International Consultants for Targeted Security), a foreign firm that provided security services for all three airports involved, and is the owner of the Huntleigh firm that controlled security at Logan.
May I remind you that, according to the 9/11 Commission report, security was handled by:

In Boston:
Flight AA11: Globe Security
Flight UA175: Huntleigh USA

In Washington:
Flight AA77: Argenbright Security

In Newark:
Flight UA93: Argenbright Security

Why do you "forget" this?

You are essentially saying that because there were guns on flight AA11 and UA93 (according to your claim), the company handling the security for flight UA175 should be extensively investigated! :confused:

The owner of ICTS at the time was Menachem Atzmon, a Likud party member who was convicted of fraud in Israel in 1996.
I like the relevance of these details (whether true or not). :)
Besides the guns, there's plenty of other evidence pointing to a sophisticated conspiracy beyond the means of al-Qaeda.
You have already admitted that there was a precedent of Arab terrorists hijacking four planes simultaneously. So, besides the hypothetic guns, where is that "plenty of other evidence pointing to a sophisticated conspiracy beyond the means of al-Qaeda"?
 
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OK, at the risk of being sued:

the evidence pointing to Israeli-Zionist direct involvement is overwhelming
Well, so far, the "evidence" you provided is: "ICTS (International Consultants for Targeted Security), a foreign firm, is the owner of the Huntleigh firm that controlled security for flight UA175".
(not a quote, but my summary)

Where "foreign firm" means Israeli firm.

Quite underwhelming, you know ...
 
It isn't making sense because you're oversimplifying my argument and jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. My original contention was that the plot was far more sophisticated than anything a Gulf Arab group like al-Qaeda is capable of. One piece of evidence in favor of that is that the hijackers had guns, pointing to a larger conspiracy with connections in the airport security apparatus. That should have have lead to an extensive investigation of ICTS (International Consultants for Targeted Security), a foreign firm that provided security services for all three airports involved, and is the owner of the Huntleigh firm that controlled security at Logan. The owner of ICTS at the time was Menachem Atzmon, a Likud party member who was convicted of fraud in Israel in 1996.

Besides the guns, there's plenty of other evidence pointing to a sophisticated conspiracy beyond the means of al-Qaeda.

I think you got this stuff from an anti semite web site. Right? Are you another white power guy?

You are not related to the dolt Christopher Bollyn, are you?

You got this junk from a mentally unstable guy; right?

Are you a jews did it guy? Are you trying to say Israel did it? Come on and say it; come on; you do want to say it, so when will you do it and stop being a coward repeating lies from other nut cases. You can do it.

You know what? You already did it! Are you CB?
 
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