The vulnerability of the Truth Movement.

ref

Master Poster
ref
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
2,685
I have previously commented on the desperation of the truth movement. Now some truther posts have gotten me considering their vulnerability.

I have read several times a line that has been stated by a truther in the LC forum. That line in a simple form goes something like "They have a leader, we need a leader as well". "They" is referring to JREF and the leader in their minds is most probably Gravy.

But I think things are quite to the contrary. It is true that JREF has been very very fortunate to have people like Gravy around, but not to take any credit away from anybody, we are standing on a very strong ground. We are not dependant on one single person to keep our story alive. We are not lead by one single person to tell us what to do and what to believe. We have all come to our own conclusions and we all share a similar view of the events in 9/11.

That means the following. If we had our three top guns retired, so that they would quit doing their important work debunking the CT, we would still be standing strong as ever. We have resources, we have evidence, we have experts, we have the laws of physics on our side, we have our own personal knowledge and most important of all, we all share the same basic agenda. That means we are not vulnerable and dependant on a couple of people.

But think about the Truth Movement. They are exactly the opposite. They claim they have no leader, but in reality they are very much lead by only a handful of people.

Unlike us, they don't have the resources, they have no evidence, they have no real experts, they don't have the laws of physics on their side and most important of all, they don't share the same basic agenda. That means they are extremely vulnerable and dependant on a very few people.

What if the Truth Movement had their three top guns retired? Let's say Dylan Avery, Alex Jones and Steven Jones quit doing their CT work.

That would mean devastation to the Truth Movement. That would kill the whole Loose Change Phenomenan. That would kill the LC board, where people are lead by Avery and expecting the world from him and his new film. That would kill a bunch of theories, kill new surprise letters from surprise witnesses and so on.

Alex Jones retiring would kill their biggest resources of everyday CT, that would end prisonplanet, infowars, the radio shows and the bullhorning.

Steven Jones retiring would kill their only guy that has had anything to do with any research. That would kill thermite. That would kill a bunch of controlled demolition theories.

So on reality, The Truth Movement is extremely vulnerable and hangs on the shoulders of only a couple of people who feed the whole CT world. Without them the whole movement would shrink to a hardly noticed branch with outlandish speculations. Speculations that would not raise interest.
 
I broadly agree.

The "Twoof" movement is already splintering under the weight of ridiculous theories and sheer stupidity. Its "leaders", when not sniping at each other, are devoting a great deal of time to JREF and its debunking of each of their pet theories. Meanwhile, the debunking is convincing fence-sitters and the sniping is driving away loyalists. You need only look at the page-view numbers to see that the movement is in the dumper and circling the drain.

The only way that the "Twoof" movement could gain any kind of traction would be for them to come up with one, and only one, theory with regards to the tragic events of that day and, probably more importantly, the run-up to it; who knew what, when did they know it, and so on.

But, you then have 20 "theorists" competing to promote the ONE TRUE TWOOF THEORY. So, the movement becomes even more fragmented than it was before as each "theorist" competes for a share of the ever-diminishing pie.

Soon, "each theorist" will have his hard core of adherents, and that'll be about all.
 
jhunter1163 said:
I broadly agree.

<snippage by TjW>

The only way that the "Twoof" movement could gain any kind of traction would be for them to come up with one, and only one, theory with regards to the tragic events of that day and, probably more importantly, the run-up to it; who knew what, when did they know it, and so on.

But, you then have 20 "theorists" competing to promote the ONE TRUE TWOOF THEORY. So, the movement becomes even more fragmented than it was before as each "theorist" competes for a share of the ever-diminishing pie.

Soon, "each theorist" will have his hard core of adherents, and that'll be about all.
Click to expand...

And worse, if a single theorist wins, with any "ONE TWOO TWOOF THEORY", the debunking becomes trivial. No longer could a twoofer dodge and weave from one JAQ-off to another, finally taking refuge in: "Well, I dunno what actually happened, but you're a fool if you think it was what THEY said it was".
 
Their leaders and rank-and-file should focus on evidence that refutes the facts put forth in the public reports. It's 2007. What are they waiting for?
 
Who the heck is Gravy? :D

But kidding aside: They already have a leader ... Dr. Jim Fetzer. :D
You gotta love this guy for his great work.
 
ref said:
I have previously commented on the desperation of the truth movement. Now some truther posts have gotten me considering their vulnerability.

I have read several times a line that has been stated by a truther in the LC forum. That line in a simple form goes something like "They have a leader, we need a leader as well". "They" is referring to JREF and the leader in their minds is most probably Gravy.

But I think things are quite to the contrary. It is true that JREF has been very very fortunate to have people like Gravy around, but not to take any credit away from anybody, we are standing on a very strong ground. We are not dependant on one single person to keep our story alive. We are not lead by one single person to tell us what to do and what to believe. We have all come to our own conclusions and we all share a similar view of the events in 9/11.

That means the following. If we had our three top guns retired, so that they would quit doing their important work debunking the CT, we would still be standing strong as ever. We have resources, we have evidence, we have experts, we have the laws of physics on our side, we have our own personal knowledge and most important of all, we all share the same basic agenda. That means we are not vulnerable and dependant on a couple of people.

But think about the Truth Movement. They are exactly the opposite. They claim they have no leader, but in reality they are very much lead by only a handful of people.

Unlike us, they don't have the resources, they have no evidence, they have no real experts, they don't have the laws of physics on their side and most important of all, they don't share the same basic agenda. That means they are extremely vulnerable and dependant on a very few people.

What if the Truth Movement had their three top guns retired? Let's say Dylan Avery, Alex Jones and Steven Jones quit doing their CT work.

That would mean devastation to the Truth Movement. That would kill the whole Loose Change Phenomenan. That would kill the LC board, where people are lead by Avery and expecting the world from him and his new film. That would kill a bunch of theories, kill new surprise letters from surprise witnesses and so on.

Alex Jones retiring would kill their biggest resources of everyday CT, that would end prisonplanet, infowars, the radio shows and the bullhorning.

Steven Jones retiring would kill their only guy that has had anything to do with any research. That would kill thermite. That would kill a bunch of controlled demolition theories.

So on reality, The Truth Movement is extremely vulnerable and hangs on the shoulders of only a couple of people who feed the whole CT world. Without them the whole movement would shrink to a hardly noticed branch with outlandish speculations. Speculations that would not raise interest.
Click to expand...

The reason they feel that they need a leader- despite that vulnerability and the contradiction having a leader poses to their "think for yourself" "down with the nwo" "fight the Grand Conspiracy" mantras- is because they know that without someone telling them what is right from wrong, they appear (and very much are) quite disorganized.

This is the problem with trying to have a faith-based movement arbitrarily injected with reason. It consistently contradicts itself, and each of the different members claim that they know the truth, but because of the fact that there is no rational basis by which to judge the validity of their claims, one person within the movement can easily contradict the other and both have equal basis for their claims... (meaning none, of course)

It causes cannibalism. One day a theory is embraced because it appears to confirm their wishes- and the next it's been embarrassingly debunked and they have to reject the individual for claiming it- calling them a disinfo agent or a nutjob, etc.

From their point of view- to maintain any sort of order, they need someone to tell them what to think. The problem obviously is not solved by a leader- because the leaders can't keep it straight: they commit the same errors.

Ultimately, this is what will destroy the conspiracists- self-contradicting theories which are all based on the same "facts", and continue to increase in outright absurdity. We can continue to debunk their claims over and over- but they will ultimately be their own undoing.

We've already seen their world fall apart because of such problems- and no amount of leadership will fix it. The problem is their rejection of logic and reason, which they cannot fix with simple leadership.
 
It's the same phenomenon as in other fields of woo. A small number of CTers publish or present 'original arguments' while a fluctuating core of a few thousand reprise these 'arguments' online, occasionally adding in their own 'creative' twists. Very rarely, one of the consumers graduates to becoming a producer of whatever brand of tripe is being sold.

The result is to make any CT extraordinarily vulnerable, just as ref said, to the retirement of even just a few proponents.

Some gauge of how CTs reproduce themselves across generations can be found by examining the manner in which older CTs have been propagated or updated. Generally speaking, the pattern seems to be that authors discover a particular piece of usually politicised woo published in say, 1951 (for Pearl Harbor conspiracies) or 1966 (for JFK insinuations), and then either have to treat the older work as Gospel, or simply lift pieces without acknowledgement. The usual result is, either way, the CT is exposed as woefully and wilfully ignorant of any subsequent research which might contradict the original conspiracist proposition. In the latter instance, debunkers get the joy of seeing the CT rewrite its own history and write out any embarrassing elements. The classic case would be JFK conspiracies, which while ten-a-penny, generally ignore the early contributions of lunatics such as Revilo P Oliver in favour of more 'neutral' sounding sources.

Thus, what we currently observe in 9/11 Trutherdom is a sped-up version of all CT life-cycles. They have already ditched many a 'name' theorist because of inconvenient arguments. The natural life-span of the CT has been reached. Any reproduction into a second phase runs up against... reality.
 
Totovader said:
The reason they feel that they need a leader- despite that vulnerability and the contradiction having a leader poses to their "think for yourself" "down with the nwo" "fight the Grand Conspiracy" mantras- is because they know that without someone telling them what is right from wrong, they appear (and very much are) quite disorganized.

This is the problem with trying to have a faith-based movement arbitrarily injected with reason. It consistently contradicts itself, and each of the different members claim that they know the truth, but because of the fact that there is no rational basis by which to judge the validity of their claims, one person within the movement can easily contradict the other and both have equal basis for their claims... (meaning none, of course)

It causes cannibalism. One day a theory is embraced because it appears to confirm their wishes- and the next it's been embarrassingly debunked and they have to reject the individual for claiming it- calling them a disinfo agent or a nutjob, etc.

From their point of view- to maintain any sort of order, they need someone to tell them what to think. The problem obviously is not solved by a leader- because the leaders can't keep it straight: they commit the same errors.

Ultimately, this is what will destroy the conspiracists- self-contradicting theories which are all based on the same "facts", and continue to increase in outright absurdity. We can continue to debunk their claims over and over- but they will ultimately be their own undoing.

We've already seen their world fall apart because of such problems- and no amount of leadership will fix it. The problem is their rejection of logic and reason, which they cannot fix with simple leadership.
Click to expand...

I disagree that leadership would not 'fix' their problems. The history of cults and religions shows firmly that you can easily persuade thousands of people to believe in utter nonsense that defies all logic and reason, indeed in some cases over thousands of years; even more recently birthed creeds have seen themselves survive for 20-30-40-50 years.

The problem for such a route is that by removing themselves into a cult-like compound, the 9/11 Truthers concede one of their primary claims, namely that "everybody is waking up" and their ideas are spreading.

To some extent, this has happened already. The embarrassing consequence is, however, to expose Dylan Avery, Alex Jones and the other monkeys as complete muppets. They have no leadership presence and precious little charisma. They command zero respect.
 
jhunter1163 said:
The only way that the "Twoof" movement could gain any kind of traction would be for them to come up with one, and only one, theory with regards to the tragic events of that day
Click to expand...

I agree. If they could come up with one unifying theory then they could distance themselves from the uber-crazys: the star wars beam people and the no planers.

Dylan and his fellow controlled demolition nuts won't however state a unified theory because any CD theory that names names MUST involve the FDNY and the PAPD.
 
Gravy said:
Their leaders and rank-and-file should focus on evidence that refutes the facts put forth in the public reports. It's 2007. What are they waiting for?
Click to expand...

They are waiting for the LC Final Cut. They have nothing else coming. Nobody is saying anything new. They repeat themselves and watch their support diminish. They can not refute any facts on any reports, so they must wait for another fiction movie to feed their CT needs. My guess is, that film contains a couple of new never-researched claims, that will become a part of the new mantra they repeat. That is, if the film is ever completed.
 
jhunter1163 said:
The only way that the "Twoof" movement could gain any kind of traction would be for them to come up with one, and only one, theory with regards to the tragic events of that day and, probably more importantly, the run-up to it; who knew what, when did they know it, and so on.
Click to expand...

The problem is the amount of theories. There can never be only one theory. Different people have invented these theories and admitting something you have created yourself being wrong is both extremely hard and embarassing. They don't want to lose their face. And they lose by sticking to the very same theories.

Some people might be ready to revise some of their views. But not everybody to the same extent. Some not at all. Those are the very creators of the whole movement. They are gone if their theories are gone. And so comes the guy with a bullhorn yelling "Inside Job".
 
The exposure they desired so much has been the worst thing for them. Nothing I ever said about Alex Jones affected people so much as my compendium of his own bizarre statements and beliefs.

Heaven forbid, but a catastrophe of some sort is the one thing that would obviously jump-start these bozos. Again, Heaven forbid.
 
PerryLogan said:
The exposure they desired so much has been the worst thing for them. Nothing I ever said about Alex Jones affected people so much as my compendium of his own bizarre statements and beliefs.

Heaven forbid, but a catastrophe of some sort is the one thing that would obviously jump-start these bozos. Again, Heaven forbid.
Click to expand...

You mean... something like a new Pearl Harbor?

*dun dun dun*
 
I think the fatal weakness the truth movement has, is its anti-productive mindset. In my experience 99% simply repeat information they have garnered from specialist websites, without understanding the information or where it came from.

I believe a basic requirement, and one shared by many on these forums. Is not just knowing the data, but understanding the data, and understanding how it was arrived at.

NIST says - XXX occured. My first question is how did they work that out. Not a CT mindset, but no matter the topic, I like to follow the logic that got the answer.

Sometimes that process is so complex, my eyes glaze over and I step back and rely on the persons authority to make the claims they do. Other times the process is basic enough I can follow the reasoning and methodology, and hence broaden my knowledge of some element of a physical science

I dont see this in CTers. They get hold of a fact, and treat it like a newborn baby. They dont challenge themselves to understand the fact, or the authority of the person supplying it. The ideal that the information exists is a means to an end.
 
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MG1962 said:
I think the fatal weakness the truth movement has, is its anti-productive mindset. In my experience 99% simply repeat information they have garnered from specialist websites, without understanding the information or where it came from.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Take away those couple of specialists and they have nothing to repeat. Unfortunately those specialist keep on producing. And followers keep on repeating. How many of them even understand a single figure from their precious Steven Jones paper? How many of them have even read it? But they still repeat it. Just one example. :rolleyes:
 
Episode IV​

AN UNCONNECTED TWOOF​

It is a
dark time
for the 9/11
Twoofers. Even
as nearly 86% of
Americans give their
unquestioning support
to sinister Inside Jobbers,
rebel forces surrounding the
Movement threaten to utterly
collapse it into its own footprint.
Harried by negative energy beams,
buffeted by savvy Hardfire Troopers
and bracketed by shocking non-release
of promised films dealing destructive doom
to the stalwart Official Theory, Twoofers are
melting into formless holograms, projected upon
structured landscapes of towering reality. Twoofer
claims of a New World Order illuminate not one block
of masonry awry in a top-down scan of the rock-solid
Evidential Pyramid. In the Movement's gloried early times,
loquacious Jonesy the Hutt held hypnotic sway over millions
as electronically amplified distortions and lies spewed from his
bulbous lips and flapping gums. Terrifyingly treacherous Change
of facts were Loosed upon a vast interconnected network by the
dreaded Three Stoogents. Horridly crude experiments revealed the
steely stubbornness of Thermiters For Twoof as, with molten temper,
they demolished all hopes of discovering fusion between flash and fact.
While the Skeptical Force at Ground Zero swirls and expands outward in
an ever-widening maelstrom of acceptance, weary but omni-vigilant JREF
Keepers are confident that a great deal of the battle has been won. From
here on out they are tempted to think that maybe the rest is Gravy. Or not...​
 
ConspiRaider said:
It is a dark time for the
9/11 Twoofers. Even as nearly 86% of Americans
give their unquestioning support to sinister Inside Jobbers, rebel forces
surrounding the Movement threaten to utterly collapse it into its own footprint. Harried
by negative energy beams, buffeted by savvy Hardfire Troopers and bracketed by shocking
non-release of promised films dealing destructive doom to the stalwart Official Theory,
Twoofers are melting into formless holograms, projected upon structured landscapes
of towering reality. Twoofer claims of a New World Order illuminate
not one blockof masonry awry in a top-down scan of the
rock-solid Evidential Pyramid.
In the Movement's
gloried early
times,
loquacious
Jonesy the
Hutt held
hypnotic sway
over millions
as electronically
amplified distortions and lies
spewed from his bulbous lips and flapping
gums. Terrifyingly treacherous Change of facts were
Loosed upon a vast interconnected network by
the dreaded Three Stoogents. Horridly crude
experiments revealed the steely
stubbornness of Thermiters
ForTwoof as, with
molten temper,
they demo-
lished all
hopes
of dis-
covering
fusion
between
flash and
fact. While
the Skeptical
Force at Ground
Zero swirls and expands outward in an ever-widening
maelstrom of acceptance, weary but omni-vigilant JREF Keepers are confident that a great deal
of the battle has been won. From here on out they are tempted to think that maybe the rest is Gravy. Or not...​
Click to expand...

It's not nice to take other people's work and not credit them.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson
 
Last edited by a moderator:
beachnut said:
He made a base for your post.
Click to expand...
Ah Hah.

Well, I'll give him about another 2 minutes or so to remove it, and then I'll report it. He didn't even quote my post. It's plagiarism.

ETA: Time's up, report to mods upcoming.
 
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