Hitler Likeness & Nazi Jokes offered on Croatian sugar packets

steverino · 20th February 2007, 01:36 PM

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html

The only actual "joke" I could find appears here:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/

Hitler comes to the Jews and says, “I’ll play you a record!”
Jews: “Which one?”
Hitler: “Concrete!!!”

The joke for Croats here is supposed to be with the word ‘record’, because the word “PLOCA” in Croatian has a double meaning: one a record (as in LP), which is what is SAID in the saying, and the other, a TABLET, something you put on a grave, which is what is MEANT by the saying.
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I think this is an outrage. Plus, I can't find any of these sugar packets for sale on ebay.

Darth Rotor · 20th February 2007, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html

The only actual "joke" I could find appears here:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/

Hitler comes to the Jews and says, “I’ll play you a record!”
Jews: “Which one?”
Hitler: “Concrete!!!”

The joke for Croats here is supposed to be with the word ‘record’, because the word “PLOCA” in Croatian has a double meaning: one a record (as in LP), which is what is SAID in the saying, and the other, a TABLET, something you put on a grave, which is what is MEANT by the saying.
----------------------------------------------------
I think this is an outrage. Plus, I can't find any of these sugar packets for sale on ebay.

If one remembers that the Croatian Ustaše did a lovely little Final Solution Light on Serbs, gypsies and others, to the tune of about 300,000 to 1,000,000 (considerable disagreement among historians about that) this comes as little surprise to me.

Blessed Alojzije (Aloysius) Viktor Cardinal Stepinac (May 8, 1898 – February 10, 1960) was a Croatian Catholic Prelate. He was Archbishop of Zagreb from 1937 to 1960 and Cardinal. He was convicted by the authorities in 1946 for collaborating with the Ustaše, spending the rest of his life in prison and house arrest. Considered a martyr, the Catholic Church beatified him in 1998.

Originally Posted by The Pope

One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom. [1].

Needless to say, Serbs hardly considered this cricket.
One of the main issues the Catholic Church in Croatia at the time seems to have had was their lenience towards the fact that the religious conversions carried out by the clergy aligned with the Ustaše were merely a part of the persecution scheme aimed at the undesirable minorities — primarily the Serb Orthodox faithful. Stepinac did not seem to make any public attempts to criticize the government for persecuting the Serbs per se, but he was later quoted as giving out a secret message to the priests that "when this time of madness and savagery passes, those who converted out of their beliefs will remain in our Church, and the rest will, when the danger is gone, return to their own".
Most of the above from Wiki for ease of reference. There is quite a bit of tuff on Stepanic and his tie in to Ustase in Kaplan's book "Balkan Ghosts." In his defense, he has been considered by a number of Jewish organizations to be one of the supporters of Jews in Croatia during a time of massive repression.

Speaking of tasteles jokes, do you remember that old 1980's era joke about the Germans making a new and improved microwave to compete with American microwave ovens? It seated six.

No surprise, the manufacturer was unable to get anyone to open a distributorship in Haifa . . .

DR

Skeptic · 20th February 2007, 03:05 PM

This doesn't look like any sort of "Neo-Nazism" to me, any mote than telling "dead baby" jokes (all the rage when I were in high school) mean that someone is a child molester. But it is in poor taste.

burnvictim77 · 20th February 2007, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html

The only actual "joke" I could find appears here:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/

Hitler comes to the Jews and says, “I’ll play you a record!”
Jews: “Which one?”
Hitler: “Concrete!!!”

The joke for Croats here is supposed to be with the word ‘record’, because the word “PLOCA” in Croatian has a double meaning: one a record (as in LP), which is what is SAID in the saying, and the other, a TABLET, something you put on a grave, which is what is MEANT by the saying.
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I think this is an outrage. Plus, I can't find any of these sugar packets for sale on ebay.

I think the fine line of anti-Nazism and Reverse Nazism has been crossed on this one. The idea that people can't print Hitler jokes on sugar packets is nothing but a useless attempt to engineer a society that fears ideas.

Dr Adequate · 20th February 2007, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

I think the fine line of anti-Nazism and Reverse Nazism has been crossed on this one. The idea that people can't print Hitler jokes on sugar packets is nothing but a useless attempt to engineer a society that fears ideas.

I think that the great, huge, enormous border posts, tangles of barbed wire, and swathes of no-man's-land demarcating a joke and rabid anti-Semitism have been crossed with this one. The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke.

This is disgusting.

As for your pitiful smokescreen about "a society that fears ideas"; I think that the total extermination of Jews is one of those ideas that we ought to be afraid of. To be unafraid of frightening things is not courage: it is insanity.

burnvictim77 · 20th February 2007, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke.

And herein lies the tyranny. You want to decide for everyone else what is or is not the punchline of a joke. I simply look at a joke and decide whether or not I think it was funny or in good taste, neither of which should earn moral condemnation. It's very easy to be part of the lynch mob when essentially everyone else is on your side.

You want this idea controlled. Not the actions, but the idea itself.

Darth Rotor · 20th February 2007, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

I think that the great, huge, enormous border posts, tangles of barbed wire, and swathes of no-man's-land demarcating a joke and rabid anti-Semitism have been crossed with this one. The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke.

This is disgusting.

As for your pitiful smokescreen about "a society that fears ideas"; I think that the total extermination of Jews is one of those ideas that we ought to be afraid of. To be unafraid of frightening things is not courage: it is insanity.

The joke was very much in bad taste. On that we agree. It also conveniently highlights that a little light needs to be shed on some dark minds in Croatia.

The rest of your post is hyperbole.

DR

steverino · 20th February 2007, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

It's very easy to be part of the lynch mob when essentially everyone else is on your side.

I am confused by the metaphor. Are you saying the Hitler sugar packet is the black guy hanging from the tree?

Dr Adequate · 20th February 2007, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

The rest of your post is hyperbole.

Oh, good heavens, was it really?

Did I use a metaphor back there? Damn, and me a poet. Well spank me.

Dr Adequate · 20th February 2007, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

And herein lies the tyranny. You want to decide for everyone else what is or is not the punchline of a joke.

This is, of course, a lie.

Quote:

I simply look at a joke and decide whether or not I think it was funny or in good taste ...

Me too. That is exactly what I did.

Quote:

It's very easy to be part of the lynch mob when essentially everyone else is on your side.

You must, of course, speak for yourself. I would object very strenously to being "part of a lynch mob", but maybe that's just me. I prefer simply to voice my own opinions, as I have done.

Quote:

You want this idea controlled. Not the actions, but the idea itself.

This is, of course, a lie.

---

Now, I am interested. Can you stand up for feeble jokes about the murder of six million people without lying about me?

Gurdur · 21st February 2007, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

I think the fine line of anti-Nazism and Reverse Nazism has been crossed on this one. The idea that people can't print Hitler jokes on sugar packets is nothing but a useless attempt to engineer a society that fears ideas.

What a joke. FYI, what is actually feared is any resurgence of such racism, anti-semitism, and naziism, all of which previously within living memory led to the murder of 6 million Jews, more than half a million Gypsies, and the murder of hundreds of thousands of more civilians.

Now get a grip. Of course any sensible society will ban the printing of Ku Klux Klan "jokes" about lynching Negros. Of course any sensible society would ban the printing of "jokes" advocating racist murder. Why? Because such murder has happened before, and no, racists are not deserving of encouragement. Suck it up.

Gurdur · 21st February 2007, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by steverino

...Croats .....
I think this is an outrage. Plus, I can't find any of these sugar packets for sale on ebay.

Anti-semitism was long a stock feature to be found often in Croatia. The new anti-semitism making a resurgence in Russia is worse.

Why the hell are you looking on eBay for the sugar packets? Wouldn't that only be rewarding the company who originally made them? Plus kind of being all masochistic to yourself?

BTW: in that region of the world (Croatia / Slovakia) there is a blind cave beetle that was first described and scientifically named after Hitler by an admirer in 1933. Collectors of Hitler memorablia have almost rendered that beetle completely extinct.

a_unique_person · 21st February 2007, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

If one remembers that the Croatian Ustaše did a lovely little Final Solution Light on Serbs, gypsies and others, to the tune of about 300,000 to 1,000,000 (considerable disagreement among historians about that) this comes as little surprise to me.

The Ustase were out and out fascists, and a deep distrust and hatred between sections of Serbs and Croations is still there today. They were just beating each other up at the Australian Cricket Open last month. The extremist Serbs aren't any better.

Checkmite · 21st February 2007, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

You want this idea controlled. Not the actions, but the idea itself.

No. People's right to make fun of things like the Holocaust needs to be protected. My right (and the right of the rest of us normal people) to insist that such people are sick freaks who deserve absolutely nothing save contempt should be equally protected, despite whatever you may think.

Freddy · 21st February 2007, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi

No. People's right to make fun of things like the Holocaust needs to be protected. My right (and the right of the rest of us normal people) to insist that such people are sick freaks who deserve absolutely nothing save contempt should be equally protected, despite whatever you may think.

I agree. That someone voices disapproval of a joke does not entail that they advocate the censorship of said joke.

steverino · 21st February 2007, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

Why the hell are you looking on eBay for the sugar packets? Wouldn't that only be rewarding the company who originally made them? Plus kind of being all masochistic to yourself?

Well, I see your point. But the fact that these are sugar packets, and the jokes are lame, there is a "silly" pop culture, low-tech aspect to this ugly business that makes this anti-semitic campaign seem lightweight and futile.

UserGoogol · 21st February 2007, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

I think that the great, huge, enormous border posts, tangles of barbed wire, and swathes of no-man's-land demarcating a joke and rabid anti-Semitism have been crossed with this one. The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke.

This is disgusting.

As for your pitiful smokescreen about "a society that fears ideas"; I think that the total extermination of Jews is one of those ideas that we ought to be afraid of. To be unafraid of frightening things is not courage: it is insanity.

Insanity is a kind of comedy.

Although really, since Adolf Hitler is very dead, he's not really frightening in any rational sense anymore. That said, the sugar packets don't seem terribly funny. I suppose there's something amusingly ironic about putting someone like Hitler on something as silly as a sugar packet, but eh. Maybe it's just humor that doesn't translate well.

steverino · 21st February 2007, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by UserGoogol

Although really, since Adolf Hitler is very dead, he's not really frightening in any rational sense anymore.

OK. Then his ideas frighten me in an "emotional" sense.

The Jew as scapegoat is still very dangerous. This is a small world of dangerous, frustrated people looking for a reason to hate. Jews have been scapegoated for thousands of years. To suggest that this hatred died with Hitler's corpse is absurd.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2007, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by UserGoogol

Insanity is a kind of comedy.

Although really, since Adolf Hitler is very dead, he's not really frightening in any rational sense anymore. That said, the sugar packets don't seem terribly funny. I suppose there's something amusingly ironic about putting someone like Hitler on something as silly as a sugar packet, but eh. Maybe it's just humor that doesn't translate well.

It's not what was done, it's who was doing it.

Like if Homer Simpson makes a remark about killing his wife, versus OJ Simpson making a remark about killing his wife.

Croats? Too soon.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

OK. Then his ideas frighten me in an "emotional" sense.

Really? What frightens me isn't his ideas, but that he was able to get so many people to follow along with them.

UserGoogol · 21st February 2007, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It's not what was done, it's who was doing it.

Like if Homer Simpson makes a remark about killing his wife, versus OJ Simpson making a remark about killing his wife.

Croats? Too soon.

Perhaps. Although OJ Simpson making a remark about killing his wife is funny in a meta sense, (when he was planning on releasing "If I did It," that was so utterly absurd that I found it reasonably funny) it's still very inappropriate when he does it.

Darth Rotor · 21st February 2007, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

OK. Then his ideas frighten me in an "emotional" sense.

The Jew as scapegoat is still very dangerous. This is a small world of dangerous, frustrated people looking for a reason to hate. Jews have been scapegoated for thousands of years. To suggest that this hatred died with Hitler's corpse is absurd.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/NSFW!

I have a suspiscion that the link you provided to Stormfront is on a law enforcement watch list. (I may also be dead wrong.)

For those who are cautious with their linking from work: you might want to let this one wait until home, if at all.

DR

steverino · 21st February 2007, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Really? What frightens me isn't his ideas, but that he was able to get so many people to follow along with them.

I agree. Plus I don't think he still has to be alive to garner followers.

steverino · 21st February 2007, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I have a suspiscion that the link you provided to Stormfront is on a law enforcement watch list. (I may also be dead wrong.)

For those who are cautious with their linking from work: you might want to let this one wait until home, if at all.

DR

Thank you Darth. I erased it on my post. For the uninitiated, it is a white power anti Jewish anti black Nazi site. Very frightening, and just one of many.

burnvictim77 · 21st February 2007, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

I am confused by the metaphor. Are you saying the Hitler sugar packet is the black guy hanging from the tree?

The Nazis, or any one someone wants to label Nazis, are the black guys.

burnvictim77 · 21st February 2007, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

This is, of course, a lie.

Me too. That is exactly what I did.

You must, of course, speak for yourself. I would object very strenously to being "part of a lynch mob", but maybe that's just me. I prefer simply to voice my own opinions, as I have done.

This is, of course, a lie.

---

Now, I am interested. Can you stand up for feeble jokes about the murder of six million people without lying about me?

I can only go on what you stated here.

You disagree with the actions of the authorities then, to remove the sugar packets from circulation?

burnvictim77 · 21st February 2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

What a joke. FYI, what is actually feared is any resurgence of such racism, anti-semitism, and naziism, all of which previously within living memory led to the murder of 6 million Jews, more than half a million Gypsies, and the murder of hundreds of thousands of more civilians.

Now get a grip. Of course any sensible society will ban the printing of Ku Klux Klan "jokes" about lynching Negros. Of course any sensible society would ban the printing of "jokes" advocating racist murder. Why? Because such murder has happened before, and no, racists are not deserving of encouragement. Suck it up.

Okay, if I mistake Dr. Adequate for a Reverse Nazi, I apologize. Here's a real one. Bolded emphasis mine.

steverino · 21st February 2007, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

Okay, if I mistake Dr. Adequate for a Reverse Nazi, I apologize. Here's a real one. Bolded emphasis mine.

So would I be a "reverse serial killer" if I was against legalizing, er, serial killing?

Ziggurat · 21st February 2007, 04:05 PM

The last time antisemitic fascism gripped Europe, it wasn't the Jews who threatened to take power and whom only the fascists seemed to be able to handle. It was communists. Fascisms appeal was largely as a counter to communism, the great unknown but looming ideological threat. Violent antisemitism was the horrific symptom of the disease of fascism, but it wasn't the cause. Well, Europe is once again faced with a looming ideological threat in the form of Islamism. The danger of a return of fascism, whether through official state organs or through gangs or extrapolitical parties or whatever, is quite real. It may not be imminent, but demographics suggest it may not be avoidable either. Multicultural liberalism cannot stand up to Islamism ideologically, and conservative Christianity is too weak in Europe. What ideologies does Europe have to counter Islamism? Fascists might be the only ones both willing and able to stand up to Islamism, and they could easily gain quite a bit of influence essentially by default. And if it happens, violent antisemitism is almost sure to follow in its wake. If I were a jew in Europe, I wouldn't bet on it being a hospitable place to live in 30 years.

TragicMonkey · 21st February 2007, 04:06 PM

I'm getting confused. One minute it was Croats and sugar packets, now it's Reversible Black Nazis. Surreal!

Darth Rotor · 21st February 2007, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

So would I be a "reverse serial killer" if I was against legalizing, er, serial killing?

Why do you hate cereal?

Oh, wait, serial.

*Emily Latella voice*
Never mind.

DR

burnvictim77 · 21st February 2007, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

So would I be a "reverse serial killer" if I was against legalizing, er, serial killing?

No, the equivalent would be if you wanted to ban jokes, literature, art etc. which you arbitrarily decide promotes serial killings. And this isn't an entirely unheard of notion, either, seeing as some people wanted to ban films like Natural Born Killers or even The Passion of the Christ for their promotion of violence in an almost fetishistic way. Moreover, rape and bondage porn are tightly controlled in many jurisdictions.

However, the 'reverse serial killer' doesn't really make any sense. Nazis wanted to control ideas and punished those with what they considered wrong beliefs, like communism or Jehovah's Witness. This is why I apply the term Reverse Nazi, because in the opposing instances there are those who wish to promote a general freedom of ideas except for those sort of ideas they identify as fascist, Nazi, racist, or whatever buzz-word they find they week to appeal to emotion.

Darth Rotor · 21st February 2007, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The last time antisemitic fascism gripped Europe, it wasn't the Jews who threatened to take power and whom only the fascists seemed to be able to handle. It was communists. Fascisms appeal was largely as a counter to communism, the great unknown but looming ideological threat. Violent antisemitism was the horrific symptom of the disease of fascism, but it wasn't the cause. Well, Europe is once again faced with a looming ideological threat in the form of Islamism. The danger of a return of fascism, whether through official state organs or through gangs or extrapolitical parties or whatever, is quite real. It may not be imminent, but demographics suggest it may not be avoidable either. Multicultural liberalism cannot stand up to Islamism ideologically, and conservative Christianity is too weak in Europe. What ideologies does Europe have to counter Islamism? Fascists might be the only ones both willing and able to stand up to Islamism, and they could easily gain quite a bit of influence essentially by default. And if it happens, violent antisemitism is almost sure to follow in its wake. If I were a jew in Europe, I wouldn't bet on it being a hospitable place to live in 30 years.

That's an interesting Rock and Hard place projection. The safety valve of emigration to Israel looks to be somewhat risky, depending on how the pendulum swings in the Levant over the same period. Perhaps another wave of Europeans are bound for American shores.

*note to self: call broker, take a long position in pastrami futures*

DR

burnvictim77 · 21st February 2007, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The last time antisemitic fascism gripped Europe, it wasn't the Jews who threatened to take power and whom only the fascists seemed to be able to handle. It was communists. Fascisms appeal was largely as a counter to communism, the great unknown but looming ideological threat. Violent antisemitism was the horrific symptom of the disease of fascism, but it wasn't the cause. Well, Europe is once again faced with a looming ideological threat in the form of Islamism. The danger of a return of fascism, whether through official state organs or through gangs or extrapolitical parties or whatever, is quite real. It may not be imminent, but demographics suggest it may not be avoidable either. Multicultural liberalism cannot stand up to Islamism ideologically, and conservative Christianity is too weak in Europe. What ideologies does Europe have to counter Islamism? Fascists might be the only ones both willing and able to stand up to Islamism, and they could easily gain quite a bit of influence essentially by default. And if it happens, violent antisemitism is almost sure to follow in its wake. If I were a jew in Europe, I wouldn't bet on it being a hospitable place to live in 30 years.

Doom and gloom. I will be sure to mark this in my Predictions for the Next 30 Years file right next to Oil Runs Out and We All Start Dressing Like Characters in the Road Warrior.

Ziggurat · 21st February 2007, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

Doom and gloom. I will be sure to mark this in my Predictions for the Next 30 Years file right next to Oil Runs Out and We All Start Dressing Like Characters in the Road Warrior.

Doom? No. Gloom? Yes. Surely you must conceed that the ***t has actually hit the fan often enough in human affairs, politically speaking, to make predictions of another such event rather unlike Mad Max predictions (which have never happened). I may be wrong, but I'm not making an equivalent prediction.

And how do you see Europe managing a youth population of non-European origin which is larger than the European-origin youth population and is poorly integrated with society? Because that's exactly where things are headed, with no indication that anything will prevent that from happening. Do you honestly not see the potential, if not the likelihood, for major societal problems? Surely if I'm such a chicken little, you can form a more in-depth response to demonstrate the flaws in my argument than what you've provided so far.

burnvictim77 · 21st February 2007, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Doom? No. Gloom? Yes. Surely you must conceed that the ***t has actually hit the fan often enough in human affairs, politically speaking, to make predictions of another such event rather unlike Mad Max predictions (which have never happened). I may be wrong, but I'm not making an equivalent prediction.

And how do you see Europe managing a youth population of non-European origin which is larger than the European-origin youth population and is poorly integrated with society? Because that's exactly where things are headed, with no indication that anything will prevent that from happening. Do you honestly not see the potential, if not the likelihood, for major societal problems? Surely if I'm such a chicken little, you can form a more in-depth response to demonstrate the flaws in my argument than what you've provided so far.

Here's what I see: people of differing backgrounds tend to get along as long as their are not compelled by official Gov't policy so to do. As soon as policy makers attempt to set policies to manage this "non-European threat" you will really see the s[hello!]t hit the fan, Mad Max style, I predict.

As an American, I see the fears of these nations as nothing but the lingering racism of the dominant cultural groups. Now, we've already seen actions being taken in places like France and the Netherlands to crack down on Muslims, and this is exactly what will cause what the Europeans fear. Will it be as drastic as you predict - no real way to tell. But I can tell you that I'm not planning on moving to Europe any time soon.

gtc · 21st February 2007, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

Here's what I see: people of differing backgrounds tend to get along as long as their are not compelled by official Gov't policy so to do.

Please enlighten me as to how the Holocaust was a reaction to government policies compelling Germans to get along with others.

luchog · 21st February 2007, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by burnvictim77

Doom and gloom. I will be sure to mark this in my Predictions for the Next 30 Years file right next to Oil Runs Out and We All Start Dressing Like Characters in the Road Warrior.

Because such a thing cannot possibly happen. A good Jew should not say such things, it only makes us look ridiculous to make such an outlandish accusation. Hitler and the Nazis only intent on driving the Jews from Europe, or employing them in forced labour camps. To say that they are, what, rounding them into camps and murdering them wholesale, slaughtering them like animals on such a scale, is monstrous. It is inconceivable that any human could do such a thing, the outcry would be deafening. No, we must petition for assistance for our dispossesed breathren, and voicing such outlandish rumours does not help our cause.

burnvictim77 · 22nd February 2007, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

Please enlighten me as to how the Holocaust was a reaction to government policies compelling Germans to get along with others.

I assume you aren't denying that the Holocaust was a Gov't policy. So, I guess you are resorting to a strawman. Why is that?

burnvictim77 · 22nd February 2007, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by luchog

Because such a thing cannot possibly happen. A good Jew should not say such things, it only makes us look ridiculous to make such an outlandish accusation. Hitler and the Nazis only intent on driving the Jews from Europe, or employing them in forced labour camps. To say that they are, what, rounding them into camps and murdering them wholesale, slaughtering them like animals on such a scale, is monstrous. It is inconceivable that any human could do such a thing, the outcry would be deafening. No, we must petition for assistance for our dispossesed breathren, and voicing such outlandish rumours does not help our cause.

I can only assume you didn't actually read the post I was responding to. It was about Islam, which didn't have a whole lot to do with Hitler or the Nazis.

20th February 2007, 01:54 PM	#2
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Originally Posted by steverino http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html The only actual "joke" I could find appears here: http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/ Hitler comes to the Jews and says, “I’ll play you a record!” Jews: “Which one?” Hitler: “Concrete!!!” The joke for Croats here is supposed to be with the word ‘record’, because the word “PLOCA” in Croatian has a double meaning: one a record (as in LP), which is what is SAID in the saying, and the other, a TABLET, something you put on a grave, which is what is MEANT by the saying. ---------------------------------------------------- I think this is an outrage. Plus, I can't find any of these sugar packets for sale on ebay. If one remembers that the Croatian Ustaše did a lovely little Final Solution Light on Serbs, gypsies and others, to the tune of about 300,000 to 1,000,000 (considerable disagreement among historians about that) this comes as little surprise to me. Blessed Alojzije (Aloysius) Viktor Cardinal Stepinac (May 8, 1898 – February 10, 1960) was a Croatian Catholic Prelate. He was Archbishop of Zagreb from 1937 to 1960 and Cardinal. He was convicted by the authorities in 1946 for collaborating with the Ustaše, spending the rest of his life in prison and house arrest. Considered a martyr, the Catholic Church beatified him in 1998. Originally Posted by The Pope One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom. [1]. Needless to say, Serbs hardly considered this cricket. One of the main issues the Catholic Church in Croatia at the time seems to have had was their lenience towards the fact that the religious conversions carried out by the clergy aligned with the Ustaše were merely a part of the persecution scheme aimed at the undesirable minorities — primarily the Serb Orthodox faithful. Stepinac did not seem to make any public attempts to criticize the government for persecuting the Serbs per se, but he was later quoted as giving out a secret message to the priests that "when this time of madness and savagery passes, those who converted out of their beliefs will remain in our Church, and the rest will, when the danger is gone, return to their own". Most of the above from Wiki for ease of reference. There is quite a bit of tuff on Stepanic and his tie in to Ustase in Kaplan's book "Balkan Ghosts." In his defense, he has been considered by a number of Jewish organizations to be one of the supporters of Jews in Croatia during a time of massive repression. Speaking of tasteles jokes, do you remember that old 1980's era joke about the Germans making a new and improved microwave to compete with American microwave ovens? It seated six. No surprise, the manufacturer was unable to get anyone to open a distributorship in Haifa . . . DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 20th February 2007 at 02:00 PM.

20th February 2007, 03:05 PM	#3
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 18,312	This doesn't look like any sort of "Neo-Nazism" to me, any mote than telling "dead baby" jokes (all the rage when I were in high school) mean that someone is a child molester. But it is in poor taste.
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 18,312

20th February 2007, 08:27 PM	#5
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 17,766	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 I think the fine line of anti-Nazism and Reverse Nazism has been crossed on this one. The idea that people can't print Hitler jokes on sugar packets is nothing but a useless attempt to engineer a society that fears ideas. I think that the great, huge, enormous border posts, tangles of barbed wire, and swathes of no-man's-land demarcating a joke and rabid anti-Semitism have been crossed with this one. The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke. This is disgusting. As for your pitiful smokescreen about "a society that fears ideas"; I think that the total extermination of Jews is one of those ideas that we ought to be afraid of. To be unafraid of frightening things is not courage: it is insanity.
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 17,766	Last edited by Dr Adequate; 20th February 2007 at 08:31 PM.

20th February 2007, 09:58 PM	#7
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate I think that the great, huge, enormous border posts, tangles of barbed wire, and swathes of no-man's-land demarcating a joke and rabid anti-Semitism have been crossed with this one. The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke. This is disgusting. As for your pitiful smokescreen about "a society that fears ideas"; I think that the total extermination of Jews is one of those ideas that we ought to be afraid of. To be unafraid of frightening things is not courage: it is insanity. The joke was very much in bad taste. On that we agree. It also conveniently highlights that a little light needs to be shed on some dark minds in Croatia. The rest of your post is hyperbole. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

20th February 2007, 11:28 PM	#8
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 It's very easy to be part of the lynch mob when essentially everyone else is on your side. I am confused by the metaphor. Are you saying the Hitler sugar packet is the black guy hanging from the tree?
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

20th February 2007, 03:09 PM	#4
burnvictim77 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by steverino http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html The only actual "joke" I could find appears here: http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/ Hitler comes to the Jews and says, “I’ll play you a record!” Jews: “Which one?” Hitler: “Concrete!!!” The joke for Croats here is supposed to be with the word ‘record’, because the word “PLOCA” in Croatian has a double meaning: one a record (as in LP), which is what is SAID in the saying, and the other, a TABLET, something you put on a grave, which is what is MEANT by the saying. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think this is an outrage. Plus, I can't find any of these sugar packets for sale on ebay. I think the fine line of anti-Nazism and Reverse Nazism has been crossed on this one. The idea that people can't print Hitler jokes on sugar packets is nothing but a useless attempt to engineer a society that fears ideas.

20th February 2007, 09:18 PM	#6
burnvictim77 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke. And herein lies the tyranny. You want to decide for everyone else what is or is not the punchline of a joke. I simply look at a joke and decide whether or not I think it was funny or in good taste, neither of which should earn moral condemnation. It's very easy to be part of the lynch mob when essentially everyone else is on your side. You want this idea controlled. Not the actions, but the idea itself.

20th February 2007, 11:44 PM	#9
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 17,766	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor The rest of your post is hyperbole. Oh, good heavens, was it really? Did I use a metaphor back there? Damn, and me a poet. Well spank me.
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 17,766

20th February 2007, 11:49 PM	#10
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 17,766	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 And herein lies the tyranny. You want to decide for everyone else what is or is not the punchline of a joke. This is, of course, a lie. Quote: I simply look at a joke and decide whether or not I think it was funny or in good taste ... Me too. That is exactly what I did. Quote: It's very easy to be part of the lynch mob when essentially everyone else is on your side. You must, of course, speak for yourself. I would object very strenously to being "part of a lynch mob", but maybe that's just me. I prefer simply to voice my own opinions, as I have done. Quote: You want this idea controlled. Not the actions, but the idea itself. This is, of course, a lie. --- Now, I am interested. Can you stand up for feeble jokes about the murder of six million people without lying about me?
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 17,766

21st February 2007, 03:27 AM	#11
Gurdur Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,873	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 I think the fine line of anti-Nazism and Reverse Nazism has been crossed on this one. The idea that people can't print Hitler jokes on sugar packets is nothing but a useless attempt to engineer a society that fears ideas. What a joke. FYI, what is actually feared is any resurgence of such racism, anti-semitism, and naziism, all of which previously within living memory led to the murder of 6 million Jews, more than half a million Gypsies, and the murder of hundreds of thousands of more civilians. Now get a grip. Of course any sensible society will ban the printing of Ku Klux Klan "jokes" about lynching Negros. Of course any sensible society would ban the printing of "jokes" advocating racist murder. Why? Because such murder has happened before, and no, racists are not deserving of encouragement. Suck it up.
Gurdur Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,873

21st February 2007, 03:31 AM	#12
Gurdur Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,873	Originally Posted by steverino ...Croats ..... I think this is an outrage. Plus, I can't find any of these sugar packets for sale on ebay. Anti-semitism was long a stock feature to be found often in Croatia. The new anti-semitism making a resurgence in Russia is worse. Why the hell are you looking on eBay for the sugar packets? Wouldn't that only be rewarding the company who originally made them? Plus kind of being all masochistic to yourself? BTW: in that region of the world (Croatia / Slovakia) there is a blind cave beetle that was first described and scientifically named after Hitler by an admirer in 1933. Collectors of Hitler memorablia have almost rendered that beetle completely extinct.
Gurdur Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,873

21st February 2007, 03:35 AM	#13
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 46,027	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor If one remembers that the Croatian Ustaše did a lovely little Final Solution Light on Serbs, gypsies and others, to the tune of about 300,000 to 1,000,000 (considerable disagreement among historians about that) this comes as little surprise to me. The Ustase were out and out fascists, and a deep distrust and hatred between sections of Serbs and Croations is still there today. They were just beating each other up at the Australian Cricket Open last month. The extremist Serbs aren't any better.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

21st February 2007, 05:46 AM	#14
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,506	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 You want this idea controlled. Not the actions, but the idea itself. No. People's right to make fun of things like the Holocaust needs to be protected. My right (and the right of the rest of us normal people) to insist that such people are sick freaks who deserve absolutely nothing save contempt should be equally protected, despite whatever you may think.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

21st February 2007, 10:00 AM	#15
Freddy Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,205	Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi No. People's right to make fun of things like the Holocaust needs to be protected. My right (and the right of the rest of us normal people) to insist that such people are sick freaks who deserve absolutely nothing save contempt should be equally protected, despite whatever you may think. I agree. That someone voices disapproval of a joke does not entail that they advocate the censorship of said joke.

21st February 2007, 10:10 AM	#16
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	Originally Posted by Gurdur Why the hell are you looking on eBay for the sugar packets? Wouldn't that only be rewarding the company who originally made them? Plus kind of being all masochistic to yourself? Well, I see your point. But the fact that these are sugar packets, and the jokes are lame, there is a "silly" pop culture, low-tech aspect to this ugly business that makes this anti-semitic campaign seem lightweight and futile.
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

21st February 2007, 01:19 PM	#17
UserGoogol Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 2,074	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate I think that the great, huge, enormous border posts, tangles of barbed wire, and swathes of no-man's-land demarcating a joke and rabid anti-Semitism have been crossed with this one. The Holocaust is not the punchline to a joke. This is disgusting. As for your pitiful smokescreen about "a society that fears ideas"; I think that the total extermination of Jews is one of those ideas that we ought to be afraid of. To be unafraid of frightening things is not courage: it is insanity. Insanity is a kind of comedy. Although really, since Adolf Hitler is very dead, he's not really frightening in any rational sense anymore. That said, the sugar packets don't seem terribly funny. I suppose there's something amusingly ironic about putting someone like Hitler on something as silly as a sugar packet, but eh. Maybe it's just humor that doesn't translate well.

21st February 2007, 01:27 PM	#18
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	Originally Posted by UserGoogol Although really, since Adolf Hitler is very dead, he's not really frightening in any rational sense anymore. OK. Then his ideas frighten me in an "emotional" sense. The Jew as scapegoat is still very dangerous. This is a small world of dangerous, frustrated people looking for a reason to hate. Jews have been scapegoated for thousands of years. To suggest that this hatred died with Hitler's corpse is absurd.
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas Last edited by steverino; 21st February 2007 at 02:55 PM.

21st February 2007, 02:03 PM	#19
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 67,821	Originally Posted by UserGoogol Insanity is a kind of comedy. Although really, since Adolf Hitler is very dead, he's not really frightening in any rational sense anymore. That said, the sugar packets don't seem terribly funny. I suppose there's something amusingly ironic about putting someone like Hitler on something as silly as a sugar packet, but eh. Maybe it's just humor that doesn't translate well. It's not what was done, it's who was doing it. Like if Homer Simpson makes a remark about killing his wife, versus OJ Simpson making a remark about killing his wife. Croats? Too soon.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st February 2007, 02:06 PM	#20
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 67,821	Originally Posted by steverino OK. Then his ideas frighten me in an "emotional" sense. Really? What frightens me isn't his ideas, but that he was able to get so many people to follow along with them.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st February 2007, 02:20 PM	#21
UserGoogol Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 2,074	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey It's not what was done, it's who was doing it. Like if Homer Simpson makes a remark about killing his wife, versus OJ Simpson making a remark about killing his wife. Croats? Too soon. Perhaps. Although OJ Simpson making a remark about killing his wife is funny in a meta sense, (when he was planning on releasing "If I did It," that was so utterly absurd that I found it reasonably funny) it's still very inappropriate when he does it.

21st February 2007, 02:24 PM	#22
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Originally Posted by steverino OK. Then his ideas frighten me in an "emotional" sense. The Jew as scapegoat is still very dangerous. This is a small world of dangerous, frustrated people looking for a reason to hate. Jews have been scapegoated for thousands of years. To suggest that this hatred died with Hitler's corpse is absurd. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/NSFW! I have a suspiscion that the link you provided to Stormfront is on a law enforcement watch list. (I may also be dead wrong.) For those who are cautious with their linking from work: you might want to let this one wait until home, if at all. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 21st February 2007 at 04:05 PM.

21st February 2007, 02:55 PM	#23
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Really? What frightens me isn't his ideas, but that he was able to get so many people to follow along with them. I agree. Plus I don't think he still has to be alive to garner followers.
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

21st February 2007, 02:57 PM	#24
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor I have a suspiscion that the link you provided to Stormfront is on a law enforcement watch list. (I may also be dead wrong.) For those who are cautious with their linking from work: you might want to let this one wait until home, if at all. DR Thank you Darth. I erased it on my post. For the uninitiated, it is a white power anti Jewish anti black Nazi site. Very frightening, and just one of many.
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

21st February 2007, 03:42 PM	#25
burnvictim77 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by steverino I am confused by the metaphor. Are you saying the Hitler sugar packet is the black guy hanging from the tree? The Nazis, or any one someone wants to label Nazis, are the black guys.

21st February 2007, 03:44 PM	#26
burnvictim77 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Dr Adequate This is, of course, a lie. Me too. That is exactly what I did. You must, of course, speak for yourself. I would object very strenously to being "part of a lynch mob", but maybe that's just me. I prefer simply to voice my own opinions, as I have done. This is, of course, a lie. --- Now, I am interested. Can you stand up for feeble jokes about the murder of six million people without lying about me? I can only go on what you stated here. You disagree with the actions of the authorities then, to remove the sugar packets from circulation?

21st February 2007, 03:46 PM	#27
burnvictim77 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Gurdur What a joke. FYI, what is actually feared is any resurgence of such racism, anti-semitism, and naziism, all of which previously within living memory led to the murder of 6 million Jews, more than half a million Gypsies, and the murder of hundreds of thousands of more civilians. Now get a grip. Of course any sensible society will ban the printing of Ku Klux Klan "jokes" about lynching Negros. Of course any sensible society would ban the printing of "jokes" advocating racist murder. Why? Because such murder has happened before, and no, racists are not deserving of encouragement. Suck it up. Okay, if I mistake Dr. Adequate for a Reverse Nazi, I apologize. Here's a real one. Bolded emphasis mine.

21st February 2007, 03:51 PM	#28
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 Okay, if I mistake Dr. Adequate for a Reverse Nazi, I apologize. Here's a real one. Bolded emphasis mine. So would I be a "reverse serial killer" if I was against legalizing, er, serial killing?
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,686	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

21st February 2007, 04:05 PM	#29
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,372	The last time antisemitic fascism gripped Europe, it wasn't the Jews who threatened to take power and whom only the fascists seemed to be able to handle. It was communists. Fascisms appeal was largely as a counter to communism, the great unknown but looming ideological threat. Violent antisemitism was the horrific symptom of the disease of fascism, but it wasn't the cause. Well, Europe is once again faced with a looming ideological threat in the form of Islamism. The danger of a return of fascism, whether through official state organs or through gangs or extrapolitical parties or whatever, is quite real. It may not be imminent, but demographics suggest it may not be avoidable either. Multicultural liberalism cannot stand up to Islamism ideologically, and conservative Christianity is too weak in Europe. What ideologies does Europe have to counter Islamism? Fascists might be the only ones both willing and able to stand up to Islamism, and they could easily gain quite a bit of influence essentially by default. And if it happens, violent antisemitism is almost sure to follow in its wake. If I were a jew in Europe, I wouldn't bet on it being a hospitable place to live in 30 years.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

21st February 2007, 04:06 PM	#30
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 67,821	I'm getting confused. One minute it was Croats and sugar packets, now it's Reversible Black Nazis. Surreal!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st February 2007, 04:09 PM	#31
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Originally Posted by steverino So would I be a "reverse serial killer" if I was against legalizing, er, serial killing? Why do you hate cereal? Oh, wait, serial. Emily Latella voice Never mind. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

21st February 2007, 04:11 PM	#33
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Originally Posted by Ziggurat The last time antisemitic fascism gripped Europe, it wasn't the Jews who threatened to take power and whom only the fascists seemed to be able to handle. It was communists. Fascisms appeal was largely as a counter to communism, the great unknown but looming ideological threat. Violent antisemitism was the horrific symptom of the disease of fascism, but it wasn't the cause. Well, Europe is once again faced with a looming ideological threat in the form of Islamism. The danger of a return of fascism, whether through official state organs or through gangs or extrapolitical parties or whatever, is quite real. It may not be imminent, but demographics suggest it may not be avoidable either. Multicultural liberalism cannot stand up to Islamism ideologically, and conservative Christianity is too weak in Europe. What ideologies does Europe have to counter Islamism? Fascists might be the only ones both willing and able to stand up to Islamism, and they could easily gain quite a bit of influence essentially by default. And if it happens, violent antisemitism is almost sure to follow in its wake. If I were a jew in Europe, I wouldn't bet on it being a hospitable place to live in 30 years. That's an interesting Rock and Hard place projection. The safety valve of emigration to Israel looks to be somewhat risky, depending on how the pendulum swings in the Levant over the same period. Perhaps another wave of Europeans are bound for American shores. note to self: call broker, take a long position in pastrami futures DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

21st February 2007, 04:18 PM	#34
burnvictim77 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Ziggurat The last time antisemitic fascism gripped Europe, it wasn't the Jews who threatened to take power and whom only the fascists seemed to be able to handle. It was communists. Fascisms appeal was largely as a counter to communism, the great unknown but looming ideological threat. Violent antisemitism was the horrific symptom of the disease of fascism, but it wasn't the cause. Well, Europe is once again faced with a looming ideological threat in the form of Islamism. The danger of a return of fascism, whether through official state organs or through gangs or extrapolitical parties or whatever, is quite real. It may not be imminent, but demographics suggest it may not be avoidable either. Multicultural liberalism cannot stand up to Islamism ideologically, and conservative Christianity is too weak in Europe. What ideologies does Europe have to counter Islamism? Fascists might be the only ones both willing and able to stand up to Islamism, and they could easily gain quite a bit of influence essentially by default. And if it happens, violent antisemitism is almost sure to follow in its wake. If I were a jew in Europe, I wouldn't bet on it being a hospitable place to live in 30 years. Doom and gloom. I will be sure to mark this in my Predictions for the Next 30 Years file right next to Oil Runs Out and We All Start Dressing Like Characters in the Road Warrior.

21st February 2007, 05:09 PM	#35
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 55,372	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 Doom and gloom. I will be sure to mark this in my Predictions for the Next 30 Years file right next to Oil Runs Out and We All Start Dressing Like Characters in the Road Warrior. Doom? No. Gloom? Yes. Surely you must conceed that the ***t has actually hit the fan often enough in human affairs, politically speaking, to make predictions of another such event rather unlike Mad Max predictions (which have never happened). I may be wrong, but I'm not making an equivalent prediction. And how do you see Europe managing a youth population of non-European origin which is larger than the European-origin youth population and is poorly integrated with society? Because that's exactly where things are headed, with no indication that anything will prevent that from happening. Do you honestly not see the potential, if not the likelihood, for major societal problems? Surely if I'm such a chicken little, you can form a more in-depth response to demonstrate the flaws in my argument than what you've provided so far.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

21st February 2007, 05:44 PM	#36
burnvictim77 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 270	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Doom? No. Gloom? Yes. Surely you must conceed that the ***t has actually hit the fan often enough in human affairs, politically speaking, to make predictions of another such event rather unlike Mad Max predictions (which have never happened). I may be wrong, but I'm not making an equivalent prediction. And how do you see Europe managing a youth population of non-European origin which is larger than the European-origin youth population and is poorly integrated with society? Because that's exactly where things are headed, with no indication that anything will prevent that from happening. Do you honestly not see the potential, if not the likelihood, for major societal problems? Surely if I'm such a chicken little, you can form a more in-depth response to demonstrate the flaws in my argument than what you've provided so far. Here's what I see: people of differing backgrounds tend to get along as long as their are not compelled by official Gov't policy so to do. As soon as policy makers attempt to set policies to manage this "non-European threat" you will really see the s[hello!]t hit the fan, Mad Max style, I predict. As an American, I see the fears of these nations as nothing but the lingering racism of the dominant cultural groups. Now, we've already seen actions being taken in places like France and the Netherlands to crack down on Muslims, and this is exactly what will cause what the Europeans fear. Will it be as drastic as you predict - no real way to tell. But I can tell you that I'm not planning on moving to Europe any time soon.

21st February 2007, 09:53 PM	#37
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 7,110	Originally Posted by burnvictim77 Here's what I see: people of differing backgrounds tend to get along as long as their are not compelled by official Gov't policy so to do. Please enlighten me as to how the Holocaust was a reaction to government policies compelling Germans to get along with others.
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 7,110