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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , david ray griffin , nist

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Old 1st September 2007, 10:57 AM   #1
R.Mackey
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Review of Dr. Griffin's NIST criticism now available

I am pleased to announce that my long-awaited, long-delayed, long-promised, and simply long review of Dr. David Ray Griffin's book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking, is finally ready for public consumption. My review is restricted to his chapter criticizing the NIST report and outlining his case for "controlled demolition."

I have sent copies to pomeroo, who first asked for it, and to ref who has followed its genesis too. I invite others, be they of Team JREF Ninja Wave or of conspiracist stripes, to read it as well. The file is a ~1.3 MB Microsoft Word document, just shy of 200 pages. Please send me a PM with a valid e-mail address, and I will send you a copy.

ref (among others) is invited to put this paper on his debunking website, if he finds it useful. I will not be starting my own debunking website, simply because there are several excellent efforts already thanks to diligent JREF members, and any website of my own would be, at best, a poor imitation. I would therefore rather contribute than compete, if I may.

Feedback can also be sent to me via PM, or there is an e-mail address on the cover page. Discussion is also welcome in this thread.
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Old 1st September 2007, 11:03 AM   #2
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Sweet!
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Old 1st September 2007, 11:11 AM   #3
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I'll devour it!
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Old 1st September 2007, 11:19 AM   #4
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PM sent!
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Old 1st September 2007, 12:12 PM   #5
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This should be awesome.
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-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet
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Old 1st September 2007, 12:26 PM   #6
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Hey Mackey, Griffin is supposed to be in my home town on Sept 11th. I'd love a copy to fling some facts his way!
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Old 1st September 2007, 01:04 PM   #7
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The paper is available at:

http://911guide.googlepages.com/ryanmackey
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Old 1st September 2007, 01:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
The paper is available at:

http://911guide.googlepages.com/ryanmackey
ahhhhhh no need to email it to me then

.....unless it was just a cunning ploy by mr mackey to get our email addresses...hmmmmmm?
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Old 1st September 2007, 01:09 PM   #9
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Awesome ref! Is there any chance you can make the Word doc a downloadable PDF? I can help with conversions if necessary.
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Old 1st September 2007, 01:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Awesome ref! Is there any chance you can make the Word doc a downloadable PDF? I can help with conversions if necessary.
I almost did this, and now I'm at work.
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Old 1st September 2007, 02:07 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by uk_dave View Post
ahhhhhh no need to email it to me then

.....unless it was just a cunning ploy by mr mackey to get our email addresses...hmmmmmm?
If I get spam mail for psychic-free viagra SO HELP ME RYAN!
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-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

Last edited by Drudgewire; 1st September 2007 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 1st September 2007, 04:18 PM   #12
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Dangit, Ryan, why didn't you name it "Debunking Debunking 9/11 Debunking"?
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Old 1st September 2007, 04:25 PM   #13
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Excellent news. I am very much looking forward to reading it, R. Mackey.
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Old 1st September 2007, 04:33 PM   #14
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Thanks for the hard work you put into this, R. Mackey. I am looking forward to reading it.
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Old 1st September 2007, 04:55 PM   #15
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One hundred and eighty pages. Damn Mackey, my hats off to you, and there's an automatic pint with your name on it if you make it over to London.
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Old 1st September 2007, 05:54 PM   #16
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I've got a PDF for download here (1.2 mb)

Just dipping into it now.
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What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links
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Old 1st September 2007, 05:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Awesome ref! Is there any chance you can make the Word doc a downloadable PDF? I can help with conversions if necessary.
This is exactly what I was thinking, citations can easily be hyperlinked to the actual reference which makes reading a thousand times easier.
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Old 1st September 2007, 06:08 PM   #18
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Mackey very well done. I applaud you.
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Old 1st September 2007, 06:19 PM   #19
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Ryan Mackey:

Very impressive piece of work!
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Old 1st September 2007, 06:28 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I've got a PDF for download here (1.2 mb)

Just dipping into it now.

Thanks for the link, I have downloaded it for future enjoyment.
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Old 1st September 2007, 11:18 PM   #21
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That's a serious book-length response. Wow!
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Old 1st September 2007, 11:34 PM   #22
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Well done sir.



I expect the Troofer's next effoer to be Debunking "Debinking Debunkin 9-11 Debunking."

Of course, it will be two pages after this massacre.

And watch out - DRG may try to sue you.

For what? I dunno, but that's the trend with these loons - sue when the debunkers cite facts at you...
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Old 2nd September 2007, 12:43 AM   #23
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It was late night in Finland, when I got the file, so I just released it as a Word document and went to sleep I put it up in both Word and PDF formats for people to choose.

The link is the same:

http://911guide.googlepages.com/ryanmackey

for both Word and PDF versions.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 12:45 AM   #24
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Thanks ref!
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Old 2nd September 2007, 02:10 AM   #25
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I just want to thank Ryan Mackey for an excellent paper. It is very well written, and not too technical for every person to read through.

As an excellent example, I would like to point out the chapter, where Ryan tackles the South Tower Tipping And Disintegration. Awesome.

I applaud
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Old 2nd September 2007, 02:13 AM   #26
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Hey R Mackey, you sure you have not done some fiction writing on the sly. The credits you list are all technical, but having read the first two chapters of this work. I am extremely impressed by the flow and style, very Deborah Cadbury in approach.

The dedication was lovely too. We sometimes forget those poor souls who had to sift through and pick up the pieces after that dreadful day.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 04:00 AM   #27
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Your first review is in from a CT advocate at DU:

Quote:
I disagree, the material in your links looks more like hackwork to me
Is simplistic and feeble.
Right now, I'm trying to get a more specific critique going, as in, bring back something you consider simplistic and feeble. I'll let you know if I get an answer. We are also going to learn about pronouns.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 04:12 AM   #28
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What, no applause from the CT crowd...I am surprised...lol

Great to have it to add to the 10 years worth of material I have to read

Thanks Mackey

TAM
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Old 2nd September 2007, 04:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
Dangit, Ryan, why didn't you name it "Debunking Debunking 9/11 Debunking"?
Can YOU say "debunking" 110 times in ten seconds???? I didn't think so!!


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Old 2nd September 2007, 06:27 AM   #30
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I had no idea that Ryan M. was a UCSC graduate!
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Old 2nd September 2007, 06:52 AM   #31
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I can't wait for the youtube version to come out, so we can see the truthers' reaction.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 07:05 AM   #32
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David Ray Griffin in the blue shorts...
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Excellent piece of work.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 07:20 AM   #33
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One, I applaud you on your research. But as the paper deals directly with NIST and the collapse of the buildings, I find it difficult to accept the paper at all as you are not qualified. See, Ryan, you are not a structural engineer. And according to debunking standards, unless you are a structural engineer you are unqualified to support or to critique NIST itself or any critique by another party.

But since I thought I would find the same debunking nonsense, I will point out a couple of errors in your paper already.
Quote:
As we can plainly see, Mr. Robertson does not support Dr. Griffin’s assertions. He suggests that the WTC Towers were designed to handle a 707 impact, but that the actual requirement stipulated a much lower speed collision, with “absolutely no comparison” between the requirement and the actual events of September 11th. Mr. Robertson also indicates that a thorough analysis would have been impossible with the tools of the time. It also bears pointing out that his firm LERA was a contributor to the NIST report, rather than disputing it, as Dr. Griffin suggests.
You may want to update your research in order revise this first error. The speed of that 707 was 600mph not a "lower speed". Oh and the source for displaying your error: NIST NCSTAR 1-2, WTC Investigation Appendix A Draft For Public Comment. Perhaps in your next revision you can correct Mr. Robertson's thinking instead of accepting this obvious error.

Quote:
To my knowledge, Mr. Skilling has never claimed that the Towers would remain standing indefinitely, particularly given the fires and the impossibility of fighting them.
Impossibility? LOL. Your kidding right? If it were impossible to fight the fires, why did firefighters travel into the towers and up the stairs and mention small pockets of fire that would be attacked? As a diligent researcher, I'm surprised to hear you state that fighting the fires was an impossibility.
And lets see what Mr. Skilling stated about his buildings and their behavior after an impact with a jetliner:
"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

So even after a crash, and the fire, the designer states the building would still be there. Let me repeat, the building would still be there. He doesn't state, the building would be there for just a couple of hours and then collapse or that the structure would eventually fail. Of course in your statement you then qualify your lack of knowledge into " Even if he has, there are no calculations given in support." This has to be the first time I've seen a debunker disagree with the head structural engineer of the Towers because of the lack of calculations, but accept NIST's work with the same lack of calculations in regards to other events in the towers.
Not only that in the segment above, you accept Mr. Robertson's statements...without calculations! ROFLMAO!
Don't you think Mr. Skilling is qualified to make that statement about his own building considering the amount of air traffic surrounding NYC?
Besides, how can you honestly state there are no calculations? What mystical powers helped you arrive at that conclusion? Just because you haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

This ends all debates whether or not the designers took into consideration the impact of planes and fires on their structures.

But what relevant statements did Skilling provide about his towers?
"However," he added, "I'm not saying that properly applied explosives - shaped explosives - of that magnitude could not do a tremendous amount of damage."
"I would imagine that if you took the top expert in that type of work and gave him the assignment of bringing these buildings down with explosives, I would bet that he could do it."-John Skilling Seattle Times 1993
Does this favor a controlled demolition scenario in the destruction of the towers as opposed to planes and fires? I think so.

I could repost some of your lies and bad logic that I've encountered before here at JREF, but for the sake of kindness I will not. I do look forward to reading more of this "Debunking" work, however.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg WTC 1 and 2 Whitepaper Boeing 707 DC 8 600mph.jpg (71.5 KB, 37 views)
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"I would imagine that if you took the top expert in that type of work and gave him the assignment of bringing these buildings down with explosives, I would bet that he could do it."-John SKilling-Head Structural Engineer WTC-1993 Seattle Times
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Old 2nd September 2007, 07:29 AM   #34
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First of all my hat off for someone who produces 200 papers in his own time, congratulations.

I did a search in the document for a couple of words and I saw that you referred to a Finnish expert who did some wt7 calculations:

Page 119 - Dr Kutilla models the structure as a homogeneous solid, and computes... points 1. 2. en 3. and that is the reason you disagree with him.

Well, that is also what Dr Bazant does in his papers for the twin towers, a homogenous building is used with a homogeneous energy dissipation, personally I think that Greening's original discrete model is even more
physical and realistic because the forces involved in the collapse are far from homogenous, there is an elastic phase, an inelastic phase etc. Further I think it would also be nice if the results of Kenneth Kuttler are discussed. Griffin is no physicist and has no real credentials to validate mathematical models...
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Old 2nd September 2007, 07:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by kimota View Post
Can YOU say "debunking" 110 times in ten seconds???? I didn't think so!!



Debunkity bunk!
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Old 2nd September 2007, 08:05 AM   #36
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Swing Dangler:

When you say: "See, Ryan, you are not a structural engineer. And according to debunking standards, unless you are a structural engineer you are unqualified to support or to critique NIST itself or any critique by another party."

Oh irony of ironies!!!!!!

What are David Ray Griffin's credentials?

Structural engineer?

Civil engineer?

Physicist?

Chemist?

No, none of the above....

Professor of Religion and Theology?

Yup, you got it!
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Old 2nd September 2007, 08:06 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
You may want to update your research in order revise this first error. The speed of that 707 was 600mph not a "lower speed".
Not, at least, according to this article:

http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf...df?OpenElement



Quote:
The two towers were the first structures outside of the
military and nuclear industries designed to resist the
impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed
that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land
at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little
was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft,
and no designs were prepared for that circumstance.
Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were
available to control the effects of such fires.


Quote:
These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should
not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the
impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate
our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings,
sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants,
and other potential targets.


To date, I know of no instance in which anyone has been able to produce any original documentation of calculations on what the building was designed to withstand with regard to jet plane impacts. So, no one can say definitively. But in this instance, the lead structural engineer of the building in question contradicts your assertion. The best evidence we have to go on suggests that you are wrong.

By the way, for fun reading:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...opic=2346&st=0
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Old 2nd September 2007, 10:33 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
What, no applause from the CT crowd...I am surprised...lol
I've posted it at 9/11 Blogger.

Last edited by kameelyun; 2nd September 2007 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 10:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Swing Dangler:

When you say: "See, Ryan, you are not a structural engineer. And according to debunking standards, unless you are a structural engineer you are unqualified to support or to critique NIST itself or any critique by another party."

Oh irony of ironies!!!!!!

What are David Ray Griffin's credentials?

Structural engineer?

Civil engineer?

Physicist?

Chemist?

No, none of the above....

Professor of Religion and Theology?

Yup, you got it!

Look. At this point, we have a number of architects and engineers, some 'more' qualified than others (some are architects and structural engineers, for example, while others are mechanical engineers) at ae911truth.org, who have gone on the record to express serious doubts of the official explanation of the collapses, saying it violates the laws of physics and is hence pseudoscience. We also have a few highly credentialed people like Thomas Eagar who steadfastly defend the official explanation and label the alternative explanation as pseudoscience. This is why this whole discussion should be brought out into the open in public consciousness.

Let us not forget that our entire judicial system in the U.S. is based on laymen - i.e. jury members, i.e. "unqualified" people - to evaluate the testimony of competing experts.

I also thought of the irony of Mackey being "unqualified" by debunkers' standards, but I would not dismiss him out of hand, just like I wouldn't David Ray Griffin. While Griffin himself might be a professor of religion and theology, he has been in contact with people with qualifications in relevant fields, just as Gravy, a tour guide, has been in contact with people who support his position, such as Thomas Eagar, Brent Blanchard, et cetera.

Reopen the 9/11 investigation

Last edited by kameelyun; 2nd September 2007 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 2nd September 2007, 10:45 AM   #40
boloboffin
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Originally Posted by kameelyun View Post
This is why this whole discussion should be brought out into the open in public consciousness.
So the AE911Truth boards are going to be open to the public when exactly?
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