How many people would have to cover up Ignored Intelligence?

Undesired Walrus

Penultimate Amazing
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Let's imagine Bush and Cheney heard about this event coming, and indeed did know that a horrific and sudden attack would kill many thousands of civilians.

Are we still in staggering numbers here?

I hate to keep playing Devils Advocate, but I think a lot of that will be needed around here in the coming days.

Could the Commission still be in the dark? NORAD? CIA?

How many people are we saying here?
 
Let's imagine Bush and Cheney heard about this event coming, and indeed did know that a horrific and sudden attack would kill many thousands of civilians.

Are we still in staggering numbers here?

I hate to keep playing Devils Advocate, but I think a lot of that will be needed around here in the coming days.

Could the Commission still be in the dark? NORAD? CIA?

How many people are we saying here?

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Bush and Cheney are both, by virtue of their positions, surrounded all? much? of the time. (Makes me think of the Russian euphemism for going to the restroom: "going where even the czar goes on foot.") How would they hear it but their secretaries, assistants, secret service (remember Clinton and Monica?), and god-knows-who-all not hear it?

Or read it. Do they read anything which isn't vetted/ reviewed?
 
Too many. End.

Yeah, if would have come from a secretary or something. Bush doesn't sit there intercepting talibanic messages, thats the CIA's job.

So right there you could have the CIA head, Bush, the secretary & Dick.
 
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Speaking from experience, if we're talking strict LIHOP and not some degree of MIHOP, my guess is it could be possible; note, please, that I didn't say "probable", I said "possible". I can't be certain of the numbers, given that each intel agency would have a division dedicated to counterterrorism (even before 9/11 IIRC) that could potentially receive intelligence that might lead to 9/11 being discovered (and even if they didn't have one, there's still the all-source analysis divisions), so you have to cover 16 intelligence agencies, say an average of 50-100 people per agency in a counterterrorism division, the OUSD(I), the OSD, the VP and Pres, key members of the Cabinet and their respective offices, and possibly toss in some of the higher-ups in the military...

Well, let's put it this way. In my opinion, it's more possible than a MIHOP scenario, especially if you're arguing strict LIHOP (i.e. nothing other than the government being potentially aware of an upcoming terrorist attack and deciding to do nothing about it), but you're still looking at around two, maybe as high as three thousand people needing to be aware of at least part of it. The issue arises when the attack happens and you have all those people who were aware of the possibility that you either have to pay off or kill or "seduce to the dark side" in order to keep them quiet about what was decided, because I can just about guarantee you that very few people in government service would keep silent about something like this when you have the possibility of being more famous than Deep Throat and the potential of millions in book or movie deals (or both).
 
Too many. End.

Yeah, if would have come from a secretary or something. Bush doesn't sit there intercepting talibanic messages, thats the CIA's job.

So right there you could have the CIA head, Bush, the secretary & Dick.

You're forgetting the "grunt" intel analysts who would have received the intel to begin with. Intel's typically interpreted at the GG-08 to GG-14 levels, IIRC (those are equivalent ranks to various military officer ranks, although I'm not positive of the exact correspondence). Just thought I'd point that out. :D
 
Fine, you're being rational about a general question, but the specific one in the OP referred to just Bush and Cheney. (And not their wives, dogs, kids, close assistants, secretaries, evil mentors, secret service types...) I'll bet dollars to donuts that B&C never, ever, hear or read anything which a number of others haven't heard or read.

Granted, I argue from ignorance. My one interview for an intelligence job, after about 30 seconds, turned into a pleasant time-filling chat about the weather because it was obvious that I wasn't destined for that, uhm, destiny.
 
I'll bet dollars to donuts that B&C never, ever, hear or read anything which a number of others haven't heard or read.
i agree, any information that reaches the president would have to pass through dozens if not hundreds of subordinates first, so they would all know about it, it would just be too many people to be plausible

on the other hand you could consider LIHOP at the field agent level, but a conspiracy that doesnt reach to the highest levels of government isnt very interesting, now is it?
 
You see, we often regard the Moscow apartment bombings as almost perhaps a MIHOP, and the recent murder of Litvinenko as an almost certainty, and that lasts for many, many years without ever being discovered.

But then again, there is always the floating 'We all know he (Putin) did it' around professional people rather than just mindless kooks.
 
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You see, we often regard the Moscow apartment bombings as almost perhaps a MIHOP, and the recent murder of Litvinenko as an almost certainty, and that lasts for many, many years without ever being discovered.

But then again, there is always the floating 'We all know he (Putin) did it' around professional people rather than just mindless kooks.

I'm not sure whether you meant to say this, but one point about Putin is exactly that he was KGB, and the Litvinenko stuff was very much KGB style.

To those who argue "well Geo H.W. Bush was CIA," there is a big difference. Putin was career.
 
Depends on what level it was ignored at.

Much of what low level analysts come up with is ignored, or appears to be ignored to them. We have the famous case of the FBI agents filing memos about strange people in flight schools to prove that. The people making the reports were upset, but were obviously used to being ignored.

The question really becomes "Can the CIA really depend on its lower-level career staff not to come forward if they had the smoking gun on 911 and had it spiked by a political appointee?"
 
Fine, you're being rational about a general question, but the specific one in the OP referred to just Bush and Cheney. (And not their wives, dogs, kids, close assistants, secretaries, evil mentors, secret service types...) I'll bet dollars to donuts that B&C never, ever, hear or read anything which a number of others haven't heard or read.

Granted, I argue from ignorance. My one interview for an intelligence job, after about 30 seconds, turned into a pleasant time-filling chat about the weather because it was obvious that I wasn't destined for that, uhm, destiny.

Really? I read UW's post as "how many people in addition to B&C would there have to be in order to carry off a LIHOP scenario" personally. I find it a little difficult, but not impossible to believe that B&C wouldn't have known ANYTHING about it and instead it was carried out "below" them, so to speak, but if they knew about it, there's no way subordinates didn't. And speaking from my own experience, I know intelligence begins at a relatively low level in the government, therefore you have to take all of those people into account as well, plus you'd have to deal with the military (perhaps just the Air Force, but I don't know; I find it hard to posit a scenario that wouldn't include the Joint Chiefs of Staff of all the branches) and the Cabinet members who have undersecretaries that deal with intel (I don't believe, although I'm not positive, that the SD is the only one, but I've worked directly for the OUSD(I) in the past, so I know they exist). That being said, you are absolutely right that everything that B&C get is vetted by numerous levels in order to ensure that only the most recent and relevant intel/news gets to them. If it ain't relevant, it likely gets left out until and if it becomes relevant.
 
If the info that linked certain bits together was special, compartmentalized intel, I'd say less than a dozen people need to be in on it to close off a narrow bit of pre attack input.

That assumes that a single or a few bits of info in highly compartmentalized collection/source streams is all that was available to go on.

Big assumption. Otherwise, as noted.

DR
 
Really? I read UW's post as "how many people in addition to B&C would there have to be in order to carry off a LIHOP scenario" personally. I find it a little difficult, but not impossible to believe that B&C wouldn't have known ANYTHING about it and instead it was carried out "below" them, so to speak, but if they knew about it, there's no way subordinates didn't. And speaking from my own experience, I know intelligence begins at a relatively low level in the government, therefore you have to take all of those people into account as well, plus you'd have to deal with the military (perhaps just the Air Force, but I don't know; I find it hard to posit a scenario that wouldn't include the Joint Chiefs of Staff of all the branches) and the Cabinet members who have undersecretaries that deal with intel (I don't believe, although I'm not positive, that the SD is the only one, but I've worked directly for the OUSD(I) in the past, so I know they exist). That being said, you are absolutely right that everything that B&C get is vetted by numerous levels in order to ensure that only the most recent and relevant intel/news gets to them. If it ain't relevant, it likely gets left out until and if it becomes relevant.

I guess I was reading UW literally, in that he just refers to B&C. No doubt I was being too literal. It is silly to think about the two of them kicking back on a Saturday night (let us say), chatting about how many widows and orphans they've dispossessed during the past week, puppies and kittens they've boiled, etc. "I know," whinnies the POTUS, "let's blow up some things!" The VP sneers: "And I know just the buildings..."

Aha! I just figured out that SD = Sec Defense. But OUSD... Out of Uniform Sec Defense? Ornery Uninformed Sec Defense? Ordinarily Ukelele-playing....?
 
How so? Interested.

Quickly, without any research: Well, Putin was a KGB officer, that's no news, he was I think a protege of Andropov. I think he had a desk in East Germany. There is a general consensus view that Putin's ascendancy is a kind of triumph of the old Soviet intelligence bureaucracy.

As for poison, the most notorious case, I think, was that of Georgi Markov, a Bulgarian dissident, killed in England in 1978: look up the "Umbrella murder." He was killed when poison was injected into him with ... an umbrella point.

More recently, in post-Sov days, there has been the poisoning of the Ukrainian PM candidate, Yushchenko, which led to the "Orange Revolution" in 2005.

One characteristic of the KGB style seems to be gruesome, unsubtle, obvious poisoning. Sending a message? Yushchenko didn't die, but he was severely disfigured.

I'm going to a conference this week where I may meet a bookseller who takes spiteful delight in the laudatory literature in Russian about Putin which is appearing nowadays. I'll see what he's got.
 
I guess I was reading UW literally, in that he just refers to B&C. No doubt I was being too literal. It is silly to think about the two of them kicking back on a Saturday night (let us say), chatting about how many widows and orphans they've dispossessed during the past week, puppies and kittens they've boiled, etc. "I know," whinnies the POTUS, "let's blow up some things!" The VP sneers: "And I know just the buildings..."

Aha! I just figured out that SD = Sec Defense. But OUSD... Out of Uniform Sec Defense? Ornery Uninformed Sec Defense? Ordinarily Ukelele-playing....?

:dl:

Sorry, that just seriously cracked me up.... *giggles*

Office of the Undersecretary of Defense. Specifically, Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence. OUSD(I). OSD is Office of the Secretary of Defense.

Pardon my acronyms; I sometimes forget that not everyone here works in the government. *sheepish grin* :blush:
 
Speaking from experience, if we're talking strict LIHOP and not some degree of MIHOP, my guess is it could be possible; note, please, that I didn't say "probable", I said "possible".

Good enough for me! Nine-Eleven was an inside joooooob...

Okay, seriuosly, though, Sabrina (and SDC) has the numbers right on eyes such information would pass before hitting the desks of the POTUS or the VeeP. Information like this, even if in pieces, isn't likely to have been able to stay bottled up this long. Just the fact that mishaps in reaction, threat assessment (like the Aug. 6 memo), and intelligence gathering have come to light since 2001 that give the public a little bit of the pitcure to how far the government's pants were down haven't given any indication that there was distinct knowledge pointing to the actual operation that took place on 9/11.

People talk. The best way to keep a secret between three people is if two of them are dead.
 
As for poison, the most notorious case, I think, was that of Georgi Markov, a Bulgarian dissident, killed in England in 1978: look up the "Umbrella murder." He was killed when poison was injected into him with ... an umbrella point.

The tip of the umbrella held a small, extremely small, very very small (Just to get my point across), dimpled sphere. The dimples of the sphere held Sarin, the tip acted like a syringe planting the sphere just under the surface of the skin, it would feel like nothing more than a bug bite.

Back to the question though:

Though I have very limited experience with intelligence (LOL It almost seams like I'm admitting to being an idiot...), I have been involved in a couple of instances. What I have seen is that there is always lower level personnel involved, whether Govt Grade personnel, or Military personnel, you have to always assume you aren't the first to see the information. To put a number to it, I would have to say upwards to a couple thousand... As to reasons no one would come out with the information, I can't personally think of any. Granted there are times when someone knows something that is in fact classified, and doesn't talk, but the circumstances are very different. I don't talk about classified information I may or may not have seen, because the information could be used by our enemies. On the other hand, if someone knew the government was allowing so many lives to be lost they would, in my eyes, have a duty to talk.

Again my reply is based on very limited knowledge and experience in the matter...
 
You see, we often regard the Moscow apartment bombings as almost perhaps a MIHOP, and the recent murder of Litvinenko as an almost certainty, and that lasts for many, many years without ever being discovered.

But then again, there is always the floating 'We all know he (Putin) did it' around professional people rather than just mindless kooks.

I agree about the Moscow bombings, and I myself am not convinced that that was an inside job at all (though I'd say it's still infinitely more probable than 9/11 MIHOP). The Litvinenko poisoning, however, is quite different since it is not claimed to be conclusively solved by anyone and has no seemingly probable "cover story" as a false-flag type operation would have. But of all the theories floating around about the poisoning, the involvement of the Russian intelligence agencies is by far the most convincing for the simple fact that there are so few other suspects who would have the motive and the means to pull it off. Plus Litvinenko himself suspected them. Of course, none of this means Putin was necessarily involved.
 
OK, my turn.

I don't buy LIHOP, any variant of LIHOP, and I'll tell you why.

LIHOP is inherently more difficult to prove either way. We're speculating about what people knew, not what they did, and so it's harder to find evidence one way or another. We accept this.

In Lawrence Wright's excellent The Looming Tower and numerous other places, we read about dedicated CIA and FBI agents named Michael Scheuer, John O'Neill, and Dan Coleman among others. These folks were focused on bin Laden, long before the rest of us were. They ultimately couldn't figure out what was going on in time, not having access to all of the evidence they would have needed. But they were perhaps closer than anyone, at least closer than anyone that I've read about.

We also accept that the intelligence services of the United States don't work terribly well. This is no reflection on the individuals therein. Any bureaucracy runs at a fraction of its theoretical potential. The Government, in general, is a clumsy, stinky beast. Everyone knows this. Plato knew this.

Suppose LIHOP is true. That would mean that someone in power knew much more than these agents did. Who is this mystery person? How was this knowledge gained? Whomever this person is must have somehow stumbled upon the motherlode of information, despite being nowhere near as focused as they were, and escaping all mention afterwards. But more importantly, they must somehow have failed to hear about this.

But there's more. LIHOP requires that they were prevented from hearing about this. They weren't taken seriously enough by their superiors, if I read the stories correctly -- so why would they have been singled out? How could this blackout have been inflicted upon them without their knowledge? It couldn't have been an accident.

If we try to do it the slick way, i.e. put in seemingly innocuous procedural roadblocks and cultural hurdles to stymie them, then the person doing this must have known a lot more than they did. These things take time to implement. Whomever allegedly carried out this kind of interference -- essential to the LIHOP hypothesis -- must have known about the plot from the very beginning.

I simply don't buy it. What emerges in the story of John O'Neill and his fellow agents is the story of a man searching frantically for a needle in a haystack, but who could only get to half of the haystack. This is entirely Business As Usual in any government agency. LIHOP requires that they were blocked, subtly and skillfully, and that requires an absolutely incredible prescience and influence on the part of whomever blocked them. Not only blocked them, but only just blocked them -- allowing them to get dangerously close to unraveling the plot -- and did so with such gentle finesse that they never even sensed it.

Ridiculous.

MIHOP, by the way, fails the same test, and fails it more spectacularly. For MIHOP to be true, they all must have been totally barking up the wrong tree the whole time. Or liars. Or in on it.

This is just another example of how conspiracy theories tend to "inflate" upon examination. All the assumptions the conspiracy folks make have consequences. Eventually, the weight of these consequences brings the whole theory to a catastrophe of illogic and self-contradiction.

I don't doubt for a moment that the Government needs fixing, or that there's a healthy amount of buck-passing and butt-covering in the investigation that followed. But this is NOT the same thing as accusing the Government or anyone in it of being complicit, either actively or passively, in the murder of thousands. Those accusations are totally out of line, and those making them on such scant basis should be deeply ashamed.
 

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