[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

Well the US embargoed oil shipments to Japan and was basically aiding China. From the perspective of Japan that is aiding the enemy. If Japan started aiding Iraq against the US, how would you take it? The ultimatum sent to Japan was a slap in the face.

The US was also engaging in covert warfare with Germany.

You people are not trying to be honest and trying to see all sides of the argument. I shouldn't have to provide "sources" about basic things like this in history. The British and the US were all around in Southeast Asia. Hong Kong? Opium Wars? You guys were messing around in that region first.
You claimed that the Australians warned the U.S. that the Japanese fleet was heading to Pearl Harbor. I asked you to cite the source for that claim, and you never did. And in your reply above you still don't cite the source of your claim, but instead go off on a tangent.

Cite the source for your claim that Australia warned the U.S. about Pearl Harbor (in the Pearl Harbor thread of course) or admit that you were incorrect when you made the claim.
 
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Interesting game you're playing here, kageki. Can I play too?

The Hiroshima Hoax

Our school books tell us that hundreds of thousands of Japanese citizens, most of them civilians, were killed by U.S. atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But does that claim stand up to close inspection? I will show that it does not. I will show that the claims of large numbers of atomic deaths are a deliberate hoax.

I'm not denying that Japanese civilians were killed in atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But I don't believe the numbers were anywhere close to what the Japanese and their Nihonist dupes claim, for the purpose of gaining international sympathy they don't deserve.

The Bombs Were Newly Invented, Almost Entirely Untested Weapons

In order for the atomic bombs to have caused the numbers of casualties claimed, they would have had to work perfectly as designed. Yet of the two (distinctly different) bomb designs that were used, one had only been tested once and the other had never been tested at all.

How likely is it that any newly invented weapon, never before seen on the face of the earth, would work in the field on its very first use even after extensive testing, let alone after little or no testing? If someone designed a new aircraft based on an entirely new physical principle of flight that had not even been known a few years before, and built one plane, and flew it once, would you go for a ride in the second one? Suppose someone built a new kind of gun that had never once been fired. Would you want to carry it for self-defense? Of course not. Untested technically-complex systems are extremely unlikely to work properly on the first try.

It appears that the bombs did explode -- which is not surprising, because fission bombs are "triggered" by conventional explosives incorporated in the bomb, and conventional explosives were pretty well developed and reliable at the time. The question is whether actual fission explosions occurred, or delivered anywhere near their designed "yield" if they did. There is no evidence of that, and plenty of reason to doubt that two lucky perfect successes happened in the field the first time.

The observed mushroom clouds, by the way, are not evidence of an atomic explosion. Large explosions of any kind can produce mushroom-shaped clouds. That's just an ordinary effect of hot smoke rising from the explosion area and spreading out as it rises and cools.

Atomic Weapons Were Not A Military Threat To Japan

After the Nagasaki bomb "exploded," the U.S. had no more. It would have taken months to manufacture another, and months more for each one thereafter. At the pace of events in the War in the Pacific at that time, that would not have been enough to have much effect on the course of the war, even in the unlikely event that the bombs worked "as advertised." Their effects were too localized to be of much use in the miles-wide Pacific-island battlefields of that war. Much larger bombs were tested years later for their effects on U.S. soldiers with minimal protection at distances of a few miles, and the soliders survived unscathed. Atomic bombs could instead have been used against other arms manufacturing centers like they were at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but conventional saturation bombing provided an equally effective and far more available means to that end.

We must conclude that actual miliatary use of the atomic bomb would have had little effect on the further course of the war, and that military planners on both sides were aware of this.

What, then, were the atomic bombs for?

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs Were Psychological Weapons

In the parlance of more recent times, the sole purpose of the atomic bombs was to "shock and awe" the Japanese military leadership into supporting surrender of a war they already knew they were using. It was to give them an "out," an excuse to give up on a lost cause. It's easier to surrended to a frightening, seemingly all-powerful new force whose existence couldn't have been planned for, than to admit that you were beaten by a stronger enemy.

Note that, as psychological weapons of little military value, the atomic bombs did not have to actually work very well, as long as everyone believed they were devastatingly powerful. Low-yield duds would be, and were, just as effective as the real thing, if a sufficient hoax could be generated around them.

The Japanese Government Was Fore-Warned Of the Attacks

Given that the purpose of the attacks was to shock and awe, it was necessary for the government to be notified in advance of the locations of the attacks, so they could witness it. It is inconceivable that the U.S. would want the attacks to be "secret" since their psychological effectiveness depended on the Imperial government being aware of them. All that would have been necessary to tip them off was to feed information about the "secret" attacks to known Japanese spies. Since the U.S. had broken many Japanese codes it's also likely that false coded messages (that is, true messages from false sources) were used.

It appears that the rogue Japanese government agents who started the fires intercepted the warnings, as no other action (such as to evacuate the population to safety) was taken. Or was it? As we'll see, the "official" government probably did take action -- but not the action that you or any civilized person would expect!

If The Bombs Were Ineffective, What Happened To The Cities?

Except in the immediate few hundred feed around the explosions, the cities were destroyed by fire.

There are many causes of fire, besides nuclear weapons. Most likely, the fires at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were started by the conventional explosives in the bombs.

Poor constructions and poor fire safety preparedness accounts for most of the rest.

However, there's another likely contributing factor: agents working for rogue elements in the Japanese government, who willfully contributed to the hoax in order to help end the war. All that would be needed is a few dozen people with fuel cans and matches, to start fires in the surrounding blocks. How hard is it to set a Japanese house on fire? (Hint: the walls are made of paper!) The resulting mass fires would help create the illusion that a super-powerful bomb had exploded.

We also cannot rule out the likely possibility that large stockpiles of armaments were accidentally detonated, or deliberately sabotaged, in either or both cities. This would account for additional blast damage beyond the expected blast radius of the main bomb.

Why So Many Casualties?

If the bombs had minimal effect, what accounts for all the alleged deaths?

Clearly, many deaths did occur from the conventional explosive blast, and from the fires started by the bombs and by the Japanese agents.

However, any additional deaths that occurred were from other causes. These attacks took place in wartime, after a prolonged war that the military-oriented Japanese were losing. This means that most food and supplies were being used to support the fighting troops, with the civilian population getting the bare minimum. So, many of the subsequent deaths would have been due to poor nutrition and disease, augmented by poor sanitation and other problems typical of displaced populations such as those whose homes were destroyed in the fires.

Also, we're told that many subsequent deaths were due to cancer. Since the Japanese eat raw fish, how do we know that the increase in cancer rates were not caused by pollution of fishing grounds during the course of the war, where intensive marine operations and ship sinkings released vast amounts of known carcingens into the sea?

Of course, exposure to nuclear radiation did account for some deaths. The bombs did use radioactive uranium and plutonium which, though it probably didn't add much to the explosion, did get spread around and caused some contamination. See the present-day estimates on the casualties that would be caused by a terrorist "dirty bomb" to get an idea of what effects would be expected. Certainly nowhere near tens of thousands of deaths.

It's also likely that the explosions, fires, and internal sabotage destroyed secret Japanese nuclear test labs, spreading radioactivity from those sources.

But most of the casulaties were due to the Japanese government, forewarned of the attacks, deliberately moving large numbers of civilians into the targeted areas, where they were killed by the explosions and fires. The reason for this is clear. Knowing that they were losing the war, the Japanese government wanted a cause for international sympathy in the coming post-war era, to offset the ill will against them caused by their previous war atrocities. How ironic, and how evil, that they succeeded in garnering this sympathy by means of one of the most vile and callous acts of the entire war, perpetrated on their own loyal citizens.


Please note, to avoid misunderstanding: the above text in blue is not the author's actual opinion. It's a demonstration of the deniers' techniques in action. Let's see if kageki appreciates my use of what he's taught me in this thread. Can he refute my claims? Does he want to continue the game, now that both sides can play?
 
Interesting game you're playing here, kageki. Can I play too?
If the atomic bombs were a hoax how do you explain Godzilla, Mr. Smartyhead?
colbert.gif
 
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Gas is absorbed through the skin so you need more then a gas mask. Because of this the prisoners would die trying to remove the bodies even with a gas mask.


No. The active ingredient in Zyklon-BWP is hydrogen cyanide (HCN). As noted by Pardalis, skin exposure is far from immediately fatal.

From a Material Safety Data Sheet on HCN:

3. HAZARD INDENTIFICATION

* * * EMERGENCY OVERVIEW * * *
Poisonous, flammable liquid and vapor.
May be fatal if inhaled.
Can cause irritation to eyes, skin, and respiratory tract.
Symptoms of exposure may be delayed.
Can form explosive mixtures with air.


ROUTES OF ENTRY: Inhalation , Ingestion


4. FIRST AID MEASURES

INHALATION: Immediately remove victim to fresh air. If breathing has stopped, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen.

EYE CONTACT: Immediately flush with copious amounts of water for at least 15 minutes.

SKIN CONTACT: Immediately flush with copious amounts of water for at least 15 minutes while removing contaminated clothing.

<snip>

SPECIAL FIRE FIGHTING INSTRUCTION AND EQUIPMENT: Wear self-contained breathing apparatus and full protective clothing. Keep fire exposed cylinders cool with water spray. If possible, stop the product flow.

HAZARDOUS COMBUSTION PRODUCTS: Toxic carbon monoxide may be given off during combustion.

UNUSUAL FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS: Severe when exposed to heat or flame. Extremely flammable.

6. ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES

CLEAN UP PROCEDURES: Remove leaking cylinder to exhaust hood or safe outdoor area if this can be done safely. Remove leaking cylinder to exhaust hood or safe outdoor area. Liquid spills should be diked or flushed with water spray.

SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT: None

7. HANDLING AND STORAGE

PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN HANDLING: Secure cylinder when using to protect from falling. Use suitable hand truck to move cylinders. Use only in a well-ventilated area.

PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN STORAGE: Store in well ventilated areas. Keep valve protection cap on cylinders when not in use. Store away from heat, flame, and sparks.

8. EXPOSURE CONTROLS / PERSONAL PROTECTION

ENGINEERING CONTROLS: Provide adequate general and local exhaust ventilation to maintain concentration below exposure limits.

EYE / FACE PROTECTION: Face shield and Safety glasses . A safety shower and eyewash station should be readily available.

SKIN PROTECTION: Protective gloves.

RESPIRATORY PROTECTION: Use a self-contained breathing apparatus in case of emergency or non-routine use.

OTHER PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT: Safety shoes when handling cylinders.



What about Wolfgang Froelich?


From a neo-Nazi web page:

Froelich is an Austrian engineer and an expert witness whose field of
expertise are process engineering and gas applications. He told the
court he has carried out numerous gassings to exterminate pests and
infectious microbes. Here is how he answers the questions by public
prosecutor Aufdenblatten:

Aufdenblatten: "In your opinion were mass gassings with Zyklon B
possible?"

Froelich: "No".

Aufdenblatten: "Why not?"

Froelich: "The pesticide Zyklon B is hydrocyanic acid absorbed in a
granular-shaped carrier substance. It is released though contact with
the air. The evaporation point of hydrocyanic acid is 25.7 degrees
(Celsius)
. The higher the temperature, the more rapid is the rate of
evaporation. The delousing chambers in which Zyklon B was used in NS
(German wartime) camps and elsewhere were heated to 30 degrees and
higher, so that the hydrocyanic acid would be released rapidly from the
carrier granules. However, in the half-underground mortuaries of the
Auschwitz-Birkenau crematories, where witnesses claim that mass killings
with Zyklon B took place, the temperatures were much lower. Even if one
allows for the warming of the spaces by the body warmth of the
hypothetical prisoners, the temperature would not have been more than 15
degrees, even in summer time. Consequently, it would have taken many
hours for the hydrocyanic acid to evaporate.

"According to eyewitness reports, the victims died very quickly. The
witnesses mention time frames of 'instantaneous' to '15 minutes'. To be
able to kill the gas chamber prisoners in such a short time, the Germans
would have had to use ridiculously large amounts of Zyklon -- I estimate
from 40 to 50 kilograms for each gassing. This would have made any work
in the gas chamber fundamentally impossible. The special detachment
(Sonderkommando) people, whom the witnesses say were assigned the task
of clearing out (dead bodies) from them (the gas chambers), would have
collapsed immediately upon entering the rooms, even if they were wearing
gas masks. Enormous amounts of hydrocyanic acid would have streamed out
into the open, and would have poisoned the entire camp". [bolding added]


What Froelich's exact expertise is is unclear; but he likely made one of the same mistakes Leuchter did: the concentration of HCN required to kill insects is roughly 16,000 parts per million (ppm). The concentration required to kill humans by inhalation is around 300 ppm. Further, 25.7C is the boiling point of HCN; not its "evaporation point," which is a meaningless term. This could be a translation error; however, anyone with any true expertise should know that all liquids evaporate, and their rates of evaporation are greater as they approach their boiling points.

However, this is all moot, as the gas chambers were heated, as shown by the following letter:

Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Jahrling to Topf & Sons, March 6
1943 [Pressac, p. 221]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: KL Auschwitz Krematorien II and III

In accordance with your suggestion, the service agrees that cellar 1
should be preheated with the air coming from the rooms of the 3
forced draught installations. The supply and installation of the
ductwork and blowers necessary to this end are to be effected as soon
as possible. As you point out in your above-mentiond letter,
execution should commence this week. We would ask you to send in
triplicate detailed quote for supply and installation.

At the same time, we would ask you to send an additional quotation
for the modification of the air-extraction installation in the
undressing room.

In short, Froelich may be an expert on using HCN to kill pests; however, he clearly failed to do any research on the actual operation of the gas chambers at Auschwitz.
 
By a curious coincidence, I happened to be browsing the Holocaust History Project site a couple of days ago and read some work that has a bearing on our Nazi apologist's claims.

First, a chemical analysis of spent Zyklon B pellets from Auschwitz, to determine which of the varying substrates used in making Zyklon was used in the poison supplied to the camp:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/zyklonb/

Next, an essay by Richard J. Green Ph.D, Chemistry is not the Science, which examines the claims made by Germar Rudolf (who appears, judging by the claims he is making, one of Kageki's "experts"). Using Rudolf's own assertions about the outgassing of Zyklon B and the capabilities of the gas chamber ventilation systems, Dr. Green demonstrates that producing a very lethal concentration of HCN in a time consistent with witness reports about the gassings is practical and that the ventilators could reduce the concentration to one which would be safe for the sonderkommando to enter and work even without gas masks in no more than 30-40 minutes (in fact, levels which would satisfy OSHA regulations could be achieved in a similar time-frame).

This essay also includes a plot of the vapor pressure of HCN versus temperature which shows that even at temperatures where HCN is a solid, its vapor pressure is orders of magnitude higher than the 300 ppm (V/V) needed to kill human beings, which neatly disposes of the argument that it has to be above its boiling point to work- apparently, sublimation would do just fine.

This pdf is an updated version submitted as an expert report to the court which was considering David Irving's appeal against the judgment against him in the Lipstadt trial.

Just schon zu fressen for our Nazi apologist.
 
Because it doesn't answer the question whether Jews were really burned alive in ovens or not. Besides many were probably tortured by the Allied.

Do you have any evidence for the claim that many were probably tortured by the Allies.


The trucks however may seem possible, but the feasibility of it is also disputed.

Why is it not feasible to kill people using exhaust fumes? Quite a few Japanese people

If you don't crush the bones they remain after cremation.

Please provide some evidence for this statement.

Even my mother who grew up in Japan associate the Holocaust with the ovens.

Sadly, your mother was misinformed. What does she think about your attitude towards Jews and the Holocaust?

So what do you think then? Hitler just made up those excuses because he just wanted to kill Jews for no reason at all?

A decent biography of Hitler will teach you all you need to know about Hitlerr's motives in targetting the Jews. I am sure another poster can suggest one.
 
Having seen this thread unfold and holding my tongue for some time I would like to post an email I received today. I will be forwarding this message to all my friends and they as civilised human beings will in all probability forward it on.

Freedom of speech is a two way event as far as I am concerned and as such I express in no uncertain terms my utter rejection of the holocaust deniers and equally so, having read the utter drivel they have written to justify their twisted and bitter version of historic events reject their arguments totally.

Here is the email.

It is a matter of history that when Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead.


He did this because he said in words to this effect: 'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the track of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'


All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

In Memorial


This week, the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because
it 'offended' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred.​


This is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it. ​



It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended. ​



This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the ​


six million Jews,​




20 million Russians,



10 million Christians​




and 1,900 Catholic priests ​



who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated ​


while the German and Russia peoples looked the other way! ​


Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others, claiming the Holocaust to be 'a myth,' it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets.​


This e-mail is intended to reach 40 million people worldwide!Be a link in the memorial chain and help distribute this around the world.Don't just delete this. It will take a minute to pass this along.​

Please forward it.​
 
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Having seen this thread unfold and holding my tongue for some time I would like to post an email I received today. I will be forwarding this message to all my friends and they as civilised human beings will in all probability forward it on.

Freedom of speech is a two way event as far as I am concerned and as such I express in no uncertain terms my utter rejection of the holocaust deniers and equally so, having read the utter drivel they have written to justify their twisted and bitter version of historic events reject their arguments totally.

Here is the email.



Please forward it.​


Although your comments and the quote from Eisenhower are extremely apropos for this thread, the email is grossly exaggerated. This only happened in one city in the United Kingdom. Here is the link to snopes.com's page on the subject. Snopes mentions that one mutation misinterprets "UK" as "University of Kentucky." :rolleyes:

ETA: Cleon beat me to it, though I don't entirely agree with the "complete BS" comment.
 
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Please do not forward that email. It is complete BS. (Not quite as fraudulent as denier "research," but bogus nonetheless.)

I stand corrected. Bogus is bogus, it is clear this email is BS and as such it will not be forwarded.

This is what I like about this forum, if it is BS, then it needs to be stated, thanks for pointing it out.


Stateofgrace
 
A
ETA: Cleon beat me to it, though I don't entirely agree with the "complete BS" comment.

I will justify it:

We can agree that the basic claim is not true--the UK did not change their curriculum, it was one department in one city that made a bad decision.

At this point, yes, we could simply call it an "exaggeration." However, the reason I call it "complete BS," and the reason that it gets me irritated, is because the email tries to blame the Muslim community for the removal. It claims that the subject was removed "because it 'offended' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred." This is simply not true--the administration removed it because they were afraid there might be such sentiment among some of the Muslim students and didn't want to cause a conflict. The administrators dropped it out of cowardice, not out of cow-towing to an intolerant Muslim community, and it is complete BS to try and blame this on the Muslim community. To say nothing of the claim that the "Muslim population" as a whole says it never happened.

The point of the email is fear-mongering about the growing Muslim population in some parts of the world. It is, in my opinion, nothing more than simple bigotry--the same type of bigotry that drives Holocaust denial, only aimed at a different group.

That's all I have to say on the subject, as going further would be a derail. I'd be happy to discuss it further via PM or another thread.

 
I will justify it:

We can agree that the basic claim is not true--the UK did not change their curriculum, it was one department in one city that made a bad decision.

At this point, yes, we could simply call it an "exaggeration." However, the reason I call it "complete BS," and the reason that it gets me irritated, is because the email tries to blame the Muslim community for the removal. It claims that the subject was removed "because it 'offended' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred." This is simply not true--the administration removed it because they were afraid there might be such sentiment among some of the Muslim students and didn't want to cause a conflict. The administrators dropped it out of cowardice, not out of cow-towing to an intolerant Muslim community, and it is complete BS to try and blame this on the Muslim community. To say nothing of the claim that the "Muslim population" as a whole says it never happened.

The point of the email is fear-mongering about the growing Muslim population in some parts of the world. It is, in my opinion, nothing more than simple bigotry--the same type of bigotry that drives Holocaust denial, only aimed at a different group.

That's all I have to say on the subject, as going further would be a derail. I'd be happy to discuss it further via PM or another thread.



No need. After reading your argument and carefully re-reading the email and Snopes' commentary, I agree with you. You've convinced me. It's complete BS. :mad:
 

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