"More Polygraph Nonsense"

Here's how I look at it. Since so many polygraph tests given, many will give false 'positive' results, leading to investigations. Eventually, one of these false positive results will lead to an investigation of someone who really is guilty of spying.

This may sound like a convenient explanation, but so far, all but one spy was able to beat the polygraph. Many other spies have been caught but the polygraph was of no use in those cases.
 
My Answer:

From the account given, it appears that this was a highly unethical and biased attempt to discredit polygraphs. A polygrapher should never be told who "the most likely suspect" is -- that's laughable on the face of it.

This statement is laughable. When police departments utilize polygraphs, who else but "the most likely suspect" would they be applying them to?

Further, the job of a polygrapher is not to intimidate anyone

Puh-lease. Polygraphs, as used during police interrogations, are primarily a tool of intimidation... even the cops will admit this.

-- he's supposed to be objectively trying to determine whether the subject is telling the truth or lying.

Yeah... and in the land of gumdrops and lollipops this might even be true.

And did the geniuses who concocted this "experiment" give any consideration to using known polygraph experts, instead of picking names of polygraphers out of the phone book?

What constitutes a "know polygraph expert"? A guy with a diploma mill Ph D? Or how about the guy who cleared Aldrich Ames... twice! While you're looking for a known polygraph expert, you might also want to see if you can locate a "genuine qualified homeopath"... and maybe Bigfoot and the Easter Bunny while you're at it.

I'm still looking for someone whose career was ruined by an erroneous polygraph test.

How about 300,000 of them?

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/emp28.htm

Aclu Briefing Paper Number 4 Lie Detector Testing

During the past decade, more than two million private sector
employees each year were asked to take a "lie detector" test. Based
on these tests, approximately 300,000 workers annually were branded
liars and fired, disciplined or not hired as a result.
 
***snip***

I'm still looking for someone whose career was ruined by an erroneous polygraph test.

If you'd like a specific example...

http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-008.shtml

-I had always wanted to be an FBI agent. With that singular goal in mind...

-Finally, I was selected to be interviewed in Kansas City in July of 1996. Seven of us in our region were selected to go, but only two of us passed the interview process. Myself and another girl. I was on top of the world, knowing that I was about to realize my dream.

-The polygraph exam was next, August 7, 1996, in San Antonio, Texas. I knew I had nothing to worry about, since I had never violated the FBI's drug policy and I had not lied on my application.

-After the polygraph was over, he told me I had failed. I almost passed out in disbelief.

-I wrote the Director several more times to no avail, my application was terminated in November of that year. My dreams were shattered.

-I am a licensed attorney, professional pilot, have law enforcement experience and with top scores but I was not competitive? Obviously I had been "black balled" by the erroneous polygraph results from the FBI.

-I will probably always be effected by the injustice of what happened.

-It is a shame, since all I wanted to do was to have a chance to serve my country and make my family proud.

Sincerely,

Mark C. Doyal
 
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Mark Doyal's story is unlikely. He claims:

"The polygraph exam was next, August 7, 1996, in San Antonio, Texas. I knew I had nothing to worry about, since I had never violated the FBI's drug policy and I had not lied on my application. The agent administering the polygraph noted during the pre-polygraph interview that I had attended a university that he believed was a 'party school' and that I needed to tell him what drugs I used when I went there. I stated that I had taken none, that I didn't live on campus, I lived in another city, and that I was an older student and wasn't influenced to do such things. He repeated that that couldn't be the case and told me again to tell him what illegal drugs I had done. I countered again that that just wasn't the case and that I was telling the truth. This went back and forth for about 10 minutes and he seemed to be getting upset that I wouldn't admit to taking drugs. Finally he stated that if I was lying he was about to find out. I was upset at the unbelievable accusations he was making. Up until that point I had been treated with the utmost professionalism by the FBI staff, now I was being treated like an accused criminal. After the polygraph was over, he told me I had failed. I almost passed out in disbelief.

"I wrote several letters to FBI Director Freeh, and in October of 1996 I was polygraphed again, by another agent with the first agent who polygraphed me present. The results were the same, he told me I had failed. I just could not believe it. I had not lied on the polygraph. Even the first agent that had polygraphed me told me as I was leaving that he now believed me, that I was telling the truth. I wrote the Director several more times to no avail, my application was terminated in November of that year. My dreams were shattered."

The behavior he attributes to the first polygrapher would have been unprofessional in the extreme. I can understand why that polygrapher might have thrown out the "party school" comment, but it would have made little sense for him to insist that Doyal must have used drugs there. Obviously, even at a "party school", many students would not have been drug users. So, I doubt if the polygrapher would have behaved in such an illogical manner. However, if he did and Doyal wrote even one letter to FBI Director Freeh about this, it's likely that Freeh would have launched an investigation of the polygrapher. At an absolute minimum, if Freeh thought that Doyal deserved another polygraph, why would Freeh have permitted the original polygrapher to be present for the second polygraph? And if was there and told Doyal he now believed Doyal, why did Doyal fail the second exam?

So, I suspect that there is far more to the story than Doyal is admitting. However, in the unlikely event that his story is accurate, it would indicate a highly flawed FBI process, as opposed to the polygraph itself being flawed.
 
...in the unlikely event that his story is accurate, it would indicate a highly flawed FBI process, as opposed to the polygraph itself being flawed.


Well, then, maybe we should let the polygraph ask it's own questions. :cool:
 
Mark Doyal's story is unlikely. He claims:

"The polygraph exam was next, August 7, 1996, in San Antonio, Texas. I knew I had nothing to worry about, since I had never violated the FBI's drug policy and I had not lied on my application. The agent administering the polygraph noted during the pre-polygraph interview that I had attended a university that he believed was a 'party school' and that I needed to tell him what drugs I used when I went there. I stated that I had taken none, that I didn't live on campus, I lived in another city, and that I was an older student and wasn't influenced to do such things. He repeated that that couldn't be the case and told me again to tell him what illegal drugs I had done. I countered again that that just wasn't the case and that I was telling the truth. This went back and forth for about 10 minutes and he seemed to be getting upset that I wouldn't admit to taking drugs. Finally he stated that if I was lying he was about to find out. I was upset at the unbelievable accusations he was making. Up until that point I had been treated with the utmost professionalism by the FBI staff, now I was being treated like an accused criminal. After the polygraph was over, he told me I had failed. I almost passed out in disbelief.

"I wrote several letters to FBI Director Freeh, and in October of 1996 I was polygraphed again, by another agent with the first agent who polygraphed me present. The results were the same, he told me I had failed. I just could not believe it. I had not lied on the polygraph. Even the first agent that had polygraphed me told me as I was leaving that he now believed me, that I was telling the truth. I wrote the Director several more times to no avail, my application was terminated in November of that year. My dreams were shattered."

The behavior he attributes to the first polygrapher would have been unprofessional in the extreme. I can understand why that polygrapher might have thrown out the "party school" comment, but it would have made little sense for him to insist that Doyal must have used drugs there. Obviously, even at a "party school", many students would not have been drug users. So, I doubt if the polygrapher would have behaved in such an illogical manner. However, if he did and Doyal wrote even one letter to FBI Director Freeh about this, it's likely that Freeh would have launched an investigation of the polygrapher. At an absolute minimum, if Freeh thought that Doyal deserved another polygraph, why would Freeh have permitted the original polygrapher to be present for the second polygraph? And if was there and told Doyal he now believed Doyal, why did Doyal fail the second exam?

So, I suspect that there is far more to the story than Doyal is admitting. However, in the unlikely event that his story is accurate, it would indicate a highly flawed FBI process, as opposed to the polygraph itself being flawed.
Woosh!

And the point sails right over your head.

Don't you get it? You just hit the nail right on the head. The polygraph is only as good as the "process" in which it is used. You can't separate the polygraph from the polygrapher... a human being. Like all human beings... prone to confirmation bias, wishful thinking, prejudice, pride, recrimination, anger, revenge, etc... etc... ad nauseum. That such an inherently flawed process would eventually result in ruined careers and miscarriages of justice isn't just a possibility... it's a given.

How about these testimonials?

http://antipolygraph.org/statements.shtml

Are they all equally as "unlikely"? Should I bother offering any more examples, or are you going to dismiss every testimonial with a "No true Scotsman"?
 
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Woosh!

And the point sails right over your head.

Don't you get it? You just hit the nail right on the head. The polygraph is only as good as the "process" in which it is used. You can't separate the polygraph from the polygrapher... a human being. Like all human beings... prone to confirmation bias, wishful thinking, prejudice, pride, recrimination, anger, revenge, etc... etc... ad nauseum. That such an inherently flawed process would eventually result in ruined careers and miscarriages of justice isn't just a possibility... it's a given.

How about these testimonials?

http://antipolygraph.org/statements.shtml

Are they all equally as "unlikely"? Should I bother offering any more examples, or are you going to dismiss every testimonial with a "No true Scotsman"?
All of these testimonials are from individuals who failed polygraph tests. Do you accept testimonials from individuals who claim they have seen flying saucers? In both cases, what is needed is an objective investigation of the claims.
 
With all due respect, I'm not sure I'd consider Bob Park 'in the loop' on matters outside of his field just because he is a member of skeptical movement clubs.
With all due respect, I'm not sure I'd consider you 'in the loop' on what Bob Park is 'in the loop' on just because you call yourself a skeptic.
 
Mark Doyal's story is unlikely. He claims:

"The polygraph exam was next, August 7, 1996, in San Antonio, Texas. I knew I had nothing to worry about, since I had never violated the FBI's drug policy and I had not lied on my application. The agent administering the polygraph noted during the pre-polygraph interview that I had attended a university that he believed was a 'party school' and that I needed to tell him what drugs I used when I went there. I stated that I had taken none, that I didn't live on campus, I lived in another city, and that I was an older student and wasn't influenced to do such things. He repeated that that couldn't be the case and told me again to tell him what illegal drugs I had done. I countered again that that just wasn't the case and that I was telling the truth. This went back and forth for about 10 minutes and he seemed to be getting upset that I wouldn't admit to taking drugs. Finally he stated that if I was lying he was about to find out. I was upset at the unbelievable accusations he was making. Up until that point I had been treated with the utmost professionalism by the FBI staff, now I was being treated like an accused criminal. After the polygraph was over, he told me I had failed. I almost passed out in disbelief.

<snip>

So, I suspect that there is far more to the story than Doyal is admitting. However, in the unlikely event that his story is accurate, it would indicate a highly flawed FBI process, as opposed to the polygraph itself being flawed.
I'll go one step further, Doyal's story is total make-believe. Sure, this is how its done on TV...but anyone that has been through the process knows just how false this story is.
 
All of these testimonials are from individuals who failed polygraph tests. Do you accept testimonials from individuals who claim they have seen flying saucers? In both cases, what is needed is an objective investigation of the claims.

I have taken and passed polygraphs. One previous employer told nearly everyone they had failed, as a psychological billy club. The polygrapher would pound on an issue to see if you changed your answer and admitted to a new indiscretion. If you did, you failed. If you insisted you had told the truth, you were offered the job, but never actually told you had "passed" the test. Later at work, it was fun to go around the lunch table and discover all of us had been falsely accused of lying.

I have spoken to an FBI polygrapher who was insistent applicants not research the polygraph on the internet before the test. After my previous experience, of course I had researched it. It had floored me to have been falsely accused of lying during the application for my dream job. IMHO, some of the polygraphers start to believe they can actually detect lies with 100 percent accuracy. To me his insistence smacked of the Wizard of Oz and not wanting people to look behind the curtain to see the secret of his beloved device.

Polygraphs work primarily as a psychological tool to intimidate people into telling the truth. They are somewhat effective as a tool for detecting deception on a specific act, eg: did you steal the car? But even the scientist who developed the test used by most US government agencies said in an interview on 60 Minutes that the test was not effective as a broad screening tool, eg: have you committed a crime, or are you a spy?

As I mentioned in another thread, I find it deliciously ironic that the polygrapher LIES to the testee about which is the control question and the testee does better if they LIE at one point on the test. The real control question is not lying about your name or which number you picked, it is something like if you have ever driven drunk. They assume everyone lies about that, so compare all of your other answers to that "lie." If you actually have never driven drunk, all of your honest answers match that "lie."

The recent case of the Lebanese woman who illegally gained US citizenship and then joined the FBI and CIA after passing their polygraphs also illustrates the possibility of false negative in addition to false positive results that keep otherwise qualified applicants out of jobs.
 
Mark Doyal's story is unlikely. He claims:

"The polygraph exam was next, August 7, 1996, in San Antonio, Texas. I knew I had nothing to worry about, since I had never violated the FBI's drug policy and I had not lied on my application. The agent administering the polygraph noted during the pre-polygraph interview that I had attended a university that he believed was a 'party school' and that I needed to tell him what drugs I used when I went there. I stated that I had taken none, that I didn't live on campus, I lived in another city, and that I was an older student and wasn't influenced to do such things. He repeated that that couldn't be the case and told me again to tell him what illegal drugs I had done. I countered again that that just wasn't the case and that I was telling the truth. This went back and forth for about 10 minutes and he seemed to be getting upset that I wouldn't admit to taking drugs. Finally he stated that if I was lying he was about to find out. I was upset at the unbelievable accusations he was making. Up until that point I had been treated with the utmost professionalism by the FBI staff, now I was being treated like an accused criminal. After the polygraph was over, he told me I had failed. I almost passed out in disbelief.

"I wrote several letters to FBI Director Freeh, and in October of 1996 I was polygraphed again, by another agent with the first agent who polygraphed me present. The results were the same, he told me I had failed. I just could not believe it. I had not lied on the polygraph. Even the first agent that had polygraphed me told me as I was leaving that he now believed me, that I was telling the truth. I wrote the Director several more times to no avail, my application was terminated in November of that year. My dreams were shattered."

The behavior he attributes to the first polygrapher would have been unprofessional in the extreme. I can understand why that polygrapher might have thrown out the "party school" comment, but it would have made little sense for him to insist that Doyal must have used drugs there. Obviously, even at a "party school", many students would not have been drug users. So, I doubt if the polygrapher would have behaved in such an illogical manner. However, if he did and Doyal wrote even one letter to FBI Director Freeh about this, it's likely that Freeh would have launched an investigation of the polygrapher. At an absolute minimum, if Freeh thought that Doyal deserved another polygraph, why would Freeh have permitted the original polygrapher to be present for the second polygraph? And if was there and told Doyal he now believed Doyal, why did Doyal fail the second exam?

So, I suspect that there is far more to the story than Doyal is admitting. However, in the unlikely event that his story is accurate, it would indicate a highly flawed FBI process, as opposed to the polygraph itself being flawed.

Locknar said:
I'll go one step further, Doyal's story is total make-believe. Sure, this is how its done on TV...but anyone that has been through the process knows just how false this story is.

Hello everyone. I'm Mark C. Doyal, and I wrote that statement back in the late 90's.

I know I'm very late to this party here, this thread is 4 years old (it's amazing what a google search will give you).

As far as the statement goes, it is 100% accurate. I did not embellish or over exaggerate anything. The first individual that gave me the polygraph was somewhat hostile to me during the pre questioning session (you are told in advance what the questions are). During this pre-question discussion, he apparently thought he was doing me a favor by trying to get me to confess any "sins" before he hooked me up. Since I was already telling the truth, he was somewhat agitated when I didn't change my story. I believe his words were as he was hooking me up were "Well, we're about to find out if you are lying".

Another part of the story that I did not include was the baseline question. A baseline question is a question that they know you will lie about, or want you to lie about, then measure your response. Once the polygraph starts, any "response" that exceeds that baseline response is a lie, anything that doesn't is the truth. The baseline question he asked me concerned my speeding. He knew what kind of car I drove (300ZX Twin Turbo). The question he asked was "Do you habitually violate traffic laws?" I gave him an honest answer: Yes. I remember him looking at me and asking it again, which I replied "Yes" again. After the 3rd repetition of this question, I finally understood he wanted me to say "No", as by answering truthfully he thought he wasn't getting a good baseline "lie".

So, based on his very strong "hint", I changed my answer to "No". I wasn't in a position at that moment to understand what he was doing, and I wanted to please him, and I trusted he was doing the right thing. At the time I thought it was some sort of joke. But the baseline question is supposed to be something that will trigger a nice "lie" response.

And that baseline answer apparently didn't register very high on his machine. We continued the Q&A, then repeated it. After it was over he told me I had failed.

A few months later I was given a second chance. They brought in a new agent who told me Director Freeh had personally directed him to fly to SA and administer the polygraph. The first polygraph administrator was present during this second polygraph. I was told that I was showing deception on all answers now.

That was along time ago and I have moved on. But, after reading the two above quotes I wanted it to be known that was exactly how it happened. The polygraph has some uses, but how it's being used in prescreening applicants is wrong and tragic.

Mark C. Doyal
 
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That was along time ago and I have moved on. But, after reading the two above quotes I wanted it to be known that was exactly how it happened. The polygraph has some uses, but how it's being used in prescreening applicants is wrong and tragic.

Mark C. Doyal

I have no idea whether you are telling the truth or not. If only there was a machine that could do it for me...:D

Whatever happened, I agree with your assessment of polygraphs. Their only real use is to frighten suspects into admitting the truth.

Just thought I'd say hi and welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around.
 

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