Should Skeptics, by definition, be Atheists?

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CFLarsen said:
It is possible to have a Credo Consolans without relying on evidence or previous experience.
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I don't think that she's said that it isn't possible. Moreover, using Gardner is not representative not only because he is one man, but because you have been talking about Deists, who do not claim a relationship with god, whereas Gardner does claim that this is possible.

I think "credo consolans", whilst the only gig in town for a sceptic wishing to maintain some semblance of religious belief, is pretty meaningless. It does nothing to advance our knowledge or understanding (individual or otherwise) of the world, does not posit any supernatural manifestations, and (if you believe Claus) it's admitted self-deception rather than some connection to an actual higher power - all things that the traditional god was supposed to be the way to, and all the result of fundamental misunderstandings re the natural world. Science renders all of this pointless, and so sceptics reject it. Take away all of that, and what's left for someone still wanting to believe? What's the difference between believing in this god, and none at all? Why even call it "god", and not "Dave"?

The god outlined in this thread is nothing more than a placebo created by the conscious mind to help numb the pain of existence.
 
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Big Les said:
I don't think that she's said that it isn't possible. Moreover, using Gardner is not representative not only because he is one man, but because you have been talking about Deists, who do not claim a relationship with god, whereas Gardner does claim that this is possible.

I think "credo consolans", whilst the only gig in town for a sceptic wishing to maintain some semblance of religious belief, is pretty meaningless. It does nothing to advance our knowledge or understanding (individual or otherwise) of the world, does not posit any supernatural manifestations, and (if you believe Claus) it's admitted self-deception rather than some connection to an actual higher power - all things that the traditional god was supposed to be the way to, and all the result of fundamental misunderstandings re the natural world. Science renders all of this pointless, and so sceptics reject it. Take away all of that, and what's left for someone still wanting to believe? What's the difference between believing in this god, and none at all? Why even call it "god", and not "Dave"?

The god outlined in this thread is nothing more than a placebo created by the conscious mind to help numb the pain of existence.
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It may also be man's misunderstanding of the power of nature. Giving it a conscious mind, an identity. Primitive man must have been awed by the power of nature, all around him in earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, eclipses of the moon and sun.

Surely they thought, it is the gods who control this awesome power. Regards. Angelo
 
To be honest, I thought I'd covered that with "and all the result of fundamental misunderstandings re the natural world." It's come up earlier in the thread as well - skeptigirl argued that a Deist only comes to believe because of all of the debunked stuff that people used to believe. They've thrown out all of that, yet hung onto the comforting idea that even though all of the other stuff is nonsense, there might still be something behind it all.
 
Big Les said:
I don't think that she's said that it isn't possible. Moreover, using Gardner is not representative not only because he is one man, but because you have been talking about Deists, who do not claim a relationship with god, whereas Gardner does claim that this is possible.
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What the heck is a "relationship" with god?

Whatever it is, there is a difference between claiming a relationship with God and claiming that it is possible.

Big Les said:
I think "credo consolans", whilst the only gig in town for a sceptic wishing to maintain some semblance of religious belief, is pretty meaningless. It does nothing to advance our knowledge or understanding (individual or otherwise) of the world, does not posit any supernatural manifestations, and (if you believe Claus) it's admitted self-deception rather than some connection to an actual higher power - all things that the traditional god was supposed to be the way to, and all the result of fundamental misunderstandings re the natural world. Science renders all of this pointless, and so sceptics reject it. Take away all of that, and what's left for someone still wanting to believe? What's the difference between believing in this god, and none at all? Why even call it "god", and not "Dave"?

The god outlined in this thread is nothing more than a placebo created by the conscious mind to help numb the pain of existence.
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Maybe. But what is so unskeptical about that?
 
The great skeptic ,Martin Gardner,believes in God on faith, the I just say so of gullibiltiy!
It is a mere feeling to believe in God. Religion is a replaceable placebo1
 
Elementary School Phonics: Class In Session

MobySeven; said:
Ugh. Not only are you mixing up two movies
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(Brother Philip rests his forehead against his hand..) No no no, first you actually explain how, then "..you are mixing it up".

..you're also lying about what you originally said. You did not say, "...and neither cross the temple's seal more than seconds with the cup." You said, "...and neither cross the temple's seal with the cup." Which is incorrect.
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It's completely irrelevant. So what is your point (aside from writing the lamest nitpicking I've seen anyone attempt).

Thar be a troll, methinks.
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This is one or you have the reading comprehension of a second grader. The third option is a stressful week. Pick one.
 
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SirPhilip said:
(Brother Philip rests his forehead against his hand..) No no no, first you actually explain how, then "..you are mixing it up".

It's completely irrelevant. So what is your point (aside from writing the lamest nitpicking I've seen anyone attempt).

This is one or you have the reading comprehension of a second grader. The third option is a stressful week. Pick one.
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Banish ye to ignore, troll.
 
Egg said:
The survey was sent to 517 members, 55% of which replied. NAS claim approx 2100 members. So, we've actually only got around 10% of the total members who are known to be atheists, 3% agnostic and 1% believers . We don't have the data for over 85% of the members.

I think it's pretty hard to draw any significant conclusions. Aside from the possibility you state here about reasons for going into science fields, there's also a question of whether scientists with some kind of god belief might want to keep that to themselves for fear of bias from other scientists in reviewing their work or selections for various nominations. Presumably, if the surveys were sent to the individuals, they may well not have been entirely anonymous.
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Some of the greatest minds of the millenium have stated their position on matters of religion. 99% are agnostic or atheist. I'm referring to such people as Hawkins, Dawkins, Weinberger, Sagan, Darwin, Einstein, Asimov, Vidal, Russel, Pinker, Thomas Jefferson, Richard Feynman, Freud, Mark Twain. And many many more. All great rational thinkers, light years ahead of so-called pseudo-scientist.

Regards, Angelo.
 
Henners said:
Don't forget Silver, Livesey, Bones, Pew, Flint, Trelawney and the rest.
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The point I'm trying to make is that the most respected scientist and philosophers of all time are mostly non theist.

Of course there are others who one day are mapping the human genome, and next day are in the pews praying to a being who they percieve to be ''up there'' listening to their prayers.
 
ambnp said:
Some of the greatest minds of the millenium have stated their position on matters of religion. 99% are agnostic or atheist. I'm referring to such people as Hawkins, Dawkins, Weinberger, Sagan, Darwin, Einstein, Asimov, Vidal, Russel, Pinker, Thomas Jefferson, Richard Feynman, Freud, Mark Twain. And many many more. All great rational thinkers, light years ahead of so-called pseudo-scientist.

Regards, Angelo.
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Hi Angelo.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by claiming the greatest minds are mostly non-theist. An argument from authority or that correlation proves causation?

Where is the 99% figure coming from? What criteria are you using to validate your list?

Anyone can make a list of people who they consider to be greatest minds of the millennium to come up with their own figure. What makes you think that if your list had 99 atheists/agnostics on it, that it is some kind of objective list? What's to say you aren't just choosing atheists for the list because you happen to agree with the things they said? Surely, someone could put forward a list of theologians and claim them to be the great minds of the millennium and it would be no more or less valid than your list?

That's not to say that my own list wouldn't include a good number of the people you mention. Einstein's beliefs are pretty hard to pin down and Darwin was still a theist when he wrote Origin and you make no mention of Newton, Planck, Mendel, Pascal, Babbage, Faraday, Boyle, Galileo or Copernicus, or are they the sort of people you are referring to as "pseudo-scientists"?

Btw I don't think we have any evidence that fictional pirates were mapping the human genome. I think they usually stuck to treasure maps.
 
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Belz... said:
What the hell does this have to do with anything ?
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I was going to say, "I thought you fell on the gun rights side of the debate", until I just realized what thread I'm in.

WTH?

Egg said:
Anyone can make a list of people who they consider to be greatest minds of the millennium to come up with their own figure. What makes you think that if your list had 99 atheists/agnostics on it, that it is some kind of objective list? What's to say you aren't just choosing atheists for the list because you happen to agree with the things they said? Surely, someone could put forward a list of theologians and claim them to be the great minds of the millennium and it would be no more or less valid than your list?
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I have yet to see the name of a single Theologian that has significantly, clearly contributed to society. Just write some pretty words, or end up causing a split in society.

Scientists have done stuff like discover penicillin, and make claims that are actually shown to be true.

That's not to say that my own list wouldn't include a good number of the people you mention. Einstein's beliefs are pretty hard to pin down[...]
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Not really. He made it very clear he didn't have a personal god, and also made it clear that he was a pantheist; he celebrated nature as "god", without accepting anything intelligent or supernatural about it. Sounds pretty atheistic to me, really.

Egg said:
Darwin was still a theist when he wrote Origin
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Did he stay one for all of his life? Or did there come a point where he had to clear up his Cognitive Dissonance?
 
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Belz... said:
What the hell does this have to do with anything ?
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(Why is asking questions with obvious answers as some sort of debate tactic so popular here?)

It means, Belz, that Clause probably would have a difficult time with someone that can transport galaxies and vaporize planets and enjoys choir music and watching people get married.
 
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Lonewulf said:
I have yet to see the name of a single Theologian that has significantly, clearly contributed to society. Just write some pretty words, or end up causing a split in society.

Scientists have done stuff like discover penicillin, and make claims that are actually shown to be true.
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Indeed, we all have opinions and our own criteria on which we would judge "greatest minds". You could say the same sort of thing for musicians and philosophers, but I don't think it would be unreasonable for someone to put forward maybe Beethoven or Descartes for such a list.


Lonewulf said:
Not really. He made it very clear he didn't have a personal god, and also made it clear that he was a pantheist; he celebrated nature as "god", without accepting anything intelligent or supernatural about it. Sounds pretty atheistic to me, really.
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I don't think it's quite so simple as just giving him the label of pantheist, but yes the personal god thing was clear enough. I've come across his quotes being used to try to argue various things he believed. I guess he was what he was and we can take from his writings and quotations what we will.


Lonewulf said:
Did he stay one for all of his life? Or did there come a point where he had to clear up his Cognitive Dissonance?
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Apparently not, although I don't know if we have evidence to attribute it to cognitive dissonance or not. Darwin's major breakthrough in thinking came while he was a theist. Whether that's more relevant than his later change of mind or not depends on what point Angelo was trying to make.
 
Egg said:
I don't think it's quite so simple as just giving him the label of pantheist, but yes the personal god thing was clear enough. I've come across his quotes being used to try to argue various things he believed. I guess he was what he was and we can take from his writings and quotations what we will.
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If you say so. I still say that the evidence points in that direction. If you wish to prove me wrong, feel free to do so.

Egg said:
Apparently not, although I don't know if we have evidence to attribute it to cognitive dissonance or not. Darwin's major breakthrough in thinking came while he was a theist. Whether that's more relevant than his later change of mind or not depends on what point Angelo was trying to make.
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But his major breakthrough did not come about thanks to his theism, but rather in spite of. I think that you will agree with me on that.
 
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SirPhilip said:
(Why is asking questions with obvious answers as some sort of debate tactic so popular here?)
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Maybe because nobody has a clue why the hell you're posting here.

Why do YOU assume that I had, or have, any understanding of what you're saying ?

It means, Belz, that Clause probably would have a difficult time with someone that can transport galaxies and vaporize planets and enjoys choir music and watching people get married.
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Troll.
 
Would personal experience be a valid reason for a skeptic to be a theist? A revelation, a vision, a voice, a personal relationship with Morgan Freeman, whatever? It would not be a good reason for someone ELSE to believe, but if I got knocked out the saddle on the way to Damascus I might think it was pretty convincing. I might also think incipient schizophrenia and get myself evaluated, but assuming I stayed on plumb not counting the religous experience, couldn't my belief be justified? Could the required extraordinary evidence be extraordinary enough for ME even if it isn't for you? I have all kinds of private (although admittedly non-theistic) experiences that I would have trouble proving if pressed. Internal states, events without other witnesses, things that were meaningful enough for me to remember that others seem to have forgotten.

I think I wouldn't have trouble with someone believing in God based on personal interactions with Him being a skeptic as long as they demonstrated their skepticism in other matters. I would not find their experience convincing, but I certainly can't claim certainty that I wouldn't find it convincing if it happened to me.
 
Mister Agenda said:
Would personal experience be a valid reason for a skeptic to be a theist? A revelation, a vision, a voice, a personal relationship with Morgan Freeman, whatever?...
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I would have thought that might be the case, and that's been pretty much my argument in this thread, but others don't seem to agree. As far as I see it, this was pretty much the point behind Sagan's story: Contact.
 
Lonewulf said:
I was going to say, "I thought you fell on the gun rights side of the debate", until I just realized what thread I'm in.

WTH?


I have yet to see the name of a single Theologian that has significantly, clearly contributed to society. Just write some pretty words, or end up causing a split in society.

Scientists have done stuff like discover penicillin, and make claims that are actually shown to be true.


Not really. He made it very clear he didn't have a personal god, and also made it clear that he was a pantheist; he celebrated nature as "god", without accepting anything intelligent or supernatural about it. Sounds pretty atheistic to me, really.


Did he stay one for all of his life? Or did there come a point where he had to clear up his Cognitive Dissonance?
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Bravo. :D You saved me answering. I was a little too enthusiastic about the figure of 99%. But that's not denying the fact that most rational thinking and the greatest contributors to our modern life although earlier may have been theist, most died atheists including Einstein and Darwin who intended to study theology in his early years. Einstein stated ''I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.''
Sounds like atheisim to me too. Then you have notable theologions like Calvin who states ''if science does not prove the bible, then science must be wrong''. [Or words to that effect]
Creationists who deny the findings of astronomy, biology, astrobiology, archaeology and paleontologist are like King Tut [or was that Canute] trying to hold back the tides. ;)
 
Egg said:
Hi Angelo.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by claiming the greatest minds are mostly non-theist. An argument from authority or that correlation proves causation?

Where is the 99% figure coming from? What criteria are you using to validate your list?

Anyone can make a list of people who they consider to be greatest minds of the millennium to come up with their own figure. What makes you think that if your list had 99 atheists/agnostics on it, that it is some kind of objective list? What's to say you aren't just choosing atheists for the list because you happen to agree with the things they said? Surely, someone could put forward a list of theologians and claim them to be the great minds of the millennium and it would be no more or less valid than your list?

That's not to say that my own list wouldn't include a good number of the people you mention. Einstein's beliefs are pretty hard to pin down and Darwin was still a theist when he wrote Origin and you make no mention of Newton, Planck, Mendel, Pascal, Babbage, Faraday, Boyle, Galileo or Copernicus, or are they the sort of people you are referring to as "pseudo-scientists"?

Btw I don't think we have any evidence that fictional pirates were mapping the human genome. I think they usually stuck to treasure maps.
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Any religiosity/intelligence study I've seen shows atheists to be more intelligent than theists on average: http://danish.newsvine.com/_news/20...-atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-believers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#_note-1
 
Egg said:
Hi Angelo.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by claiming the greatest minds are mostly non-theist. An argument from authority or that correlation proves causation?

Where is the 99% figure coming from? What criteria are you using to validate your list?

Anyone can make a list of people who they consider to be greatest minds of the millennium to come up with their own figure. What makes you think that if your list had 99 atheists/agnostics on it, that it is some kind of objective list? What's to say you aren't just choosing atheists for the list because you happen to agree with the things they said? Surely, someone could put forward a list of theologians and claim them to be the great minds of the millennium and it would be no more or less valid than your list?

That's not to say that my own list wouldn't include a good number of the people you mention. Einstein's beliefs are pretty hard to pin down and Darwin was still a theist when he wrote Origin and you make no mention of Newton, Planck, Mendel, Pascal, Babbage, Faraday, Boyle, Galileo or Copernicus, or are they the sort of people you are referring to as "pseudo-scientists"?

Btw I don't think we have any evidence that fictional pirates were mapping the human genome. I think they usually stuck to treasure maps.
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All the distinguished scientist you mention WERE at one time theist. The question then you have to ask is; did they remain so all their lives. I think if you look a little closer you may find very few remained theists. Pascal took an each way bet withs his Wager, Newton was a very religious man, but I have no idea if he remained one all his life. Copernicus was one of the first to un-center the Earth, thereby questioning the bible, Galileo continued Copernicus work and was disbarred from the church been placed under house arrest by it and was lucky to keep his head attached to his neck. :rolleyes:
 
Mister Agenda said:
Would personal experience be a valid reason for a skeptic to be a theist? A revelation, a vision, a voice, a personal relationship with Morgan Freeman, whatever? It would not be a good reason for someone ELSE to believe, but if I got knocked out the saddle on the way to Damascus I might think it was pretty convincing. I might also think incipient schizophrenia and get myself evaluated, but assuming I stayed on plumb not counting the religous experience, couldn't my belief be justified? Could the required extraordinary evidence be extraordinary enough for ME even if it isn't for you? I have all kinds of private (although admittedly non-theistic) experiences that I would have trouble proving if pressed. Internal states, events without other witnesses, things that were meaningful enough for me to remember that others seem to have forgotten.

I think I wouldn't have trouble with someone believing in God based on personal interactions with Him being a skeptic as long as they demonstrated their skepticism in other matters. I would not find their experience convincing, but I certainly can't claim certainty that I wouldn't find it convincing if it happened to me.
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But here's the thing.

Name me one vision, one quest, one whatever that someone could have, that would prove:

A) Existence of Hell.
B) Existence of God.
C) Existence of the Soul.
D) Existence of heaven, or ANY kind of afterlife.
E) Existence of demons or angels.

Let's say that you see an angel. Does that mean that angels exist? Maybe it does. Maybe you can believe in angels and call yourself a skeptic. But what if it's an angel from Norse mythos, and not Christian? What if a supernatural being is just capable of looking like an angel?

In short, to believe the whole Christian thing, you'd have to find evidence for the whole Christian thing... including Christ's divinity.

It's a big task. I can't think of any single vision that would convince me that all of the above is 100% true.
 
ambnp said:
Bravo. :D You saved me answering. I was a little too enthusiastic about the figure of 99%. But that's not denying the fact that most rational thinking and the greatest contributors to our modern life although earlier may have been theist, most died atheists including Einstein and Darwin who intended to study theology in his early years. Einstein stated ''I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.''
Sounds like atheisim to me too. Then you have notable theologions like Calvin who states ''if science does not prove the bible, then science must be wrong''. [Or words to that effect]
Creationists who deny the findings of astronomy, biology, astrobiology, archaeology and paleontologist are like King Tut [or was that Canute] trying to hold back the tides. ;)
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Let's get something straight, though. I think the whole "scientists are majority atheist" thing can only really be applied today.

One hundred years ago, there was much we didn't understand. Heck, we didn't even really have Einstein's Relativity yet (I think).

Two hundred years ago? Three hundred? Four hundred? When you go that far back, belief in God becomes more and more easier to accept, because of the vast amount of things that you just don't know. But then you discover, and then prove beyond a doubt, that the planets go around the sun (Galileo)... and you also see the fallibility of the supposedly infallible church (Galileo was prevented from getting the truth out and put under house arrest by the church).

Today... there's not much use for theology. Someone studies Theology (or Philosophy), and the greatest position in society that I imagine them in is an instructor or college professor. I see someone studying science, though, and I see someone that can truly affect the world.

I would take one Hawking over a THOUSAND Augustines.
 
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Egg said:
I would have thought that might be the case, and that's been pretty much my argument in this thread, but others don't seem to agree. As far as I see it, this was pretty much the point behind Sagan's story: Contact.
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The movie version or the book? The movie changed around a few of Sagan's points.

Either way, Sagan criticized religion in Cosmos. I suggest you watch that. ;)
 
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Lonewulf said:
Let's get something straight, though. I think the whole "scientists are majority atheist" thing can only really be applied today.

One hundred years ago, there was much we didn't understand. Heck, we didn't even really have Einstein's Relativity yet (I think).

Two hundred years ago? Three hundred? Four hundred? When you go that far back, belief in God becomes more and more easier to accept, because of the vast amount of things that you just don't know. But then you discover, and then prove beyond a doubt, that the planets go around the sun (Galileo)... and you also see the fallibility of the supposedly infallible church (Galileo was prevented from getting the truth out and put under house arrest by the church).

Today... there's not much use for theology. Someone studies Theology (or Philosophy), and the greatest position in society that I imagine them in is an instructor or college professor. I see someone studying science, though, and I see someone that can truly affect the world.

I would take one Hawking over a THOUSAND Augustines.
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That's why there has been for centuries, a god of the gaps. What science could not yet explain creationist would exclaim ''God Did It''. A perfect example is the so called missing link. Creationist still insist because there seems to be a missing link between homo erectus and homo sapiens that it shows we could not possibly have evolved from the earlier species, therefore there's proof of creation, not evolution. The flimsiest misunderstanding is pounced on by creationist as proof of their precious God, not realizing that it's only a matter of time before the misunderstanding is sorted out and another gap is closed for their God to hide in. That's why they have come up with I/D. Their trying to use science for their wacky ideas, to make it more palatable for the gullible.
:rolleyes:
 
Lonewulf said:
The movie version or the book? The movie changed around a few of Sagan's points.

Either way, Sagan criticized religion in Cosmos. I suggest you watch that. ;)
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I was referring to the movie, but I'll try to get hold of a copy of the book soon...and I'll look out for Cosmos when I get a chance.

So little time, so much to do. :)
 
Egg said:
I was referring to the movie, but I'll try to get hold of a copy of the book soon...and I'll look out for Cosmos when I get a chance.

So little time, so much to do. :)
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Well, don't go by the movie. The people that made the movie distorted Sagan's viewpoints, as far as I understand.
 
Egg said:
I was referring to the movie, but I'll try to get hold of a copy of the book soon...and I'll look out for Cosmos when I get a chance.

So little time, so much to do. :)
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Make an effort and read it as soon as you can, you won't regret it. After ''Demon Haunted World'', Cosmos is one of Sagan's best. Along with ''Pale Blue Dot''.
 
ambnp said:
Make an effort and read it as soon as you can, you won't regret it. After ''Demon Haunted World'', Cosmos is one of Sagan's best. Along with ''Pale Blue Dot''.
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By the way, today is Sagan's 11th anniversary of his untimely death.
 
ambnp said:
All the distinguished scientist you mention WERE at one time theist. The question then you have to ask is; did they remain so all their lives. I think if you look a little closer you may find very few remained theists. Pascal took an each way bet withs his Wager, Newton was a very religious man, but I have no idea if he remained one all his life. Copernicus was one of the first to un-center the Earth, thereby questioning the bible, Galileo continued Copernicus work and was disbarred from the church been placed under house arrest by it and was lucky to keep his head attached to his neck. :rolleyes:
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I'm still unsure of the point you're trying to make. What is the conclusion you are drawing from what you're saying? Why does is matter if they remained theist or not?
 
If people "need" religion, as is continually spouted about, and if religion connotes some kind of arbitrary "good" thing... then how is it that the most powerful scientific minds can do without it? You'd think that people that actually had to continuously think about the nature of the universe would need it more, not less.
 
Egg said:
I'm still unsure of the point you're trying to make. What is the conclusion you are drawing from what you're saying? Why does is matter if they remained theist or not?
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Ignorance begats ignorance is my point. Most of above mentioned people were at one time theist. After science opened their eyes, or removed the blinkers if you like, they could see the burning bush for what it was. Just an ordinary bush.
The other point is that religion does not stand up to scrutiny by openminded scientists. :)
 
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