So if the neo-cons staged 9/11 to justify war in the Middle East...

Give it up.

Did they use 9/11 to justify a war? Yes

Did it work? Yes

Is it still working? Yes

End of story.

So let me get this straight. The US planned and executed 9/11 itself so that it could have casus belli against a large number of countries through the "war on terror". This argument at least holds water at first glance. But Iraq shatters it. It's a mess for world politics, the US has lost it's reputation because of it. Had WMD been found, or real connections between Saddam and OBL then the US would have been vindicated and would not have lost face.

It makes no sense. Unless of course, you think the US planned 9/11 so it could have a casus belli against nations supporting terrorism but then attack a nation that arguably WASNT supporting terrorism and lose ALL credibility to attack any other nations. :boggled::confused:
 
Are you still pretending, in 2008, that your imaginary conspiracy sought to "steal" Iraq's oil?
Yes, the "they wanted Iraq's oil" argument looks rather silly when one considers from which nations, and in what amounts, the U.S. actually gets its crude oil imports.
 
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What is your term for people who argue that the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy's goal was to transform Republican majorites in both houses of Congress into Democratic majorities? In what sense was Iraq a prize? Are you still pretending, in 2008, that your imaginary conspiracy sought to "steal" Iraq's oil? Why haven't any American companies managed to cut the sort of lucrative deals that Russian and Chinese oil companies have signed with the new Iraqi government?

Do you devote any thought at all to your fact-free pronouncements?

(No, I'm not really "debating." LostChild has absolutely nothing to say in response to any of the questions I asked. The line never changes: A mathematically-impossible cabal undertook two wars for no conceivable purpose other than to enhace the fortunes of the opposing party.)


The only thing 9/11 conspiracy is to you is an excuse to apologize and make lame excuses for the worst President and administration of crooks to ever occupy the office.

And how do you know what kind of deals are going down with the oil? Do you even know where it is? Where does between 100,000 and 300,000 barrels a day of Iraq’s declared oil production that's missing go? For all you know when you pay $3.20 a gallon at the pump they got that oil for free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/world/middleeast/12oil.html
Billions in Oil Missing in Iraq, U.S. Study Says


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8N0VRD80&show_article=1
Exxon Mobil Posts Record Annual Profit


Not that anything can ever happen to them. Dubya took care of that too…

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/weekly_2003/oil_corporations_iraq_immunity.html
Bush Gives Legal Immunity to Transnational Oil Corporations in Iraq
 
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Good to see you back. With a slightly moderated tone, you'll remain a valuable participant and a necessary opponent in these debates.


Thanks for the kind words, but I never actually left. As I read the ongoing debates, I'm forced to conclude that they serve to reinforce Mark's decision to withdraw from the fray. There is no substance to them. It's not the fault of the rationalists, who dutifully trot out the time-tested refutations of fantasist nonsense. No, the problem is with the other side. The people who peddle the inside-job snake oil are simply going through the motions. Their hearts are no longer in it.

Try to view the situation through the eyes of someone who has just stumbled upon these controversies and hasn't yet invested any emotional energy. The first thing you'll notice is that the fantasists are saying things that they couldn't possibly believe. I have been careful to label these people conspiracy liars for precisely that reason: they profess to believe things that nobody could believe. Ace Baker is scheduled, against the advice of some people whose opinions I respect, to appear on 'Hardfire' to defend his no-plane lunacy, but the distinction here is that he is not lying. He suffers from a massive delusion, but no power on earth is capable of persuading him that the plane observed by thousands of witnesses was real.

Contrast Ace's mad but sincere position with the stance of someone pretending that a wildly implausible conspiracy used a motley assortment of mostly Saudi hijackers to catalyze a war with Iraq. You just know that as the fantasist rants, there's a little voice in his head whispering, "But, seriously, why wouldn't they have made a few of the hijackers Iraqis?"
It is not possible to contend that the most insanely bloated conspiracy ever imagined by humans "forgot" to connect the extravaganza that launched its plan with the ultimate goal of the plan. It's beyond silly: it's unthinkable.

The same criticism applies to the disingenuous cries for a "new" investigation made by people whose fantasies have been systematically destroyed by evidence and logic. What exactly are they asking for? If such types as the vacuous LostChild find themselves compelled to ignore the FACT that an unprecedentedly comprehensive investigation, combining the efforts of several agencies, determined the identity of the hijackers and failed to find any traces of explosives, what could change their minds? The mountain of smoking rubble is gone. The pieces of aircraft debris are gone.
Where would they want to begin the "new" investigation? If the FBI fabricated everything (!), how can disturbed, low-IQ adolescents expect to reveal the treachery and solve the crime?

There is a reason why fantasists never tell us who should conduct this investigation. If you involve real physicists, chemists, metallurgists, seismologists, demolition experts, fire safety specialists, pilots, avionics techs, air traffic controllers, forensic examiners, military personnel, police and fire departments, well, everybody gets the idea that you'll replicate the results of the original investigation. If you allow theologians, Marxist academics, and talk radio hosts to do the investigating, your lynch mob will hear what it wants to hear, but the rational community will continue to laugh at you.

It's 2008: Bush is leaving office in less than a year. The 9/11 fantasy movement is a senile, dying nonagenarian asking the doctor to make him young again. What outcome is likely here?
 
With Bush at 30% and the Republicans on the ropes....yeah, it's working.

Even if the Democrats manage to blow this election (a real possibility at the moment) the GOP can forget becoming a solid majority part for the foreseeable future. Iraq cost them the congress in 2006, and although they might pull out the presidency in 2008 (due less to their ability and more to the Democrats destroying themselves in internal warfare) they won't get the congress back anytime soon. A real sucess,folks.....
 
The only thing 9/11 conspiracy is to you is an excuse to apologize and make lame excuses for the worst President and administration of crooks to ever occupy the office.

And how do you know what kind of deals are going down with the oil? Do you even know where it is? Where does between 100,000 and 300,000 barrels a day of Iraq’s declared oil production that's missing go? For all you know when you pay $3.20 a gallon at the pump they got that oil for free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/world/middleeast/12oil.html
Billions in Oil Missing in Iraq, U.S. Study Says


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8N0VRD80&show_article=1
Exxon Mobil Posts Record Annual Profit


Not that anything can ever happen to them. Dubya took care of that too…

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/weekly_2003/oil_corporations_iraq_immunity.html
Bush Gives Legal Immunity to Transnational Oil Corporations in Iraq



You make no attempt to think about any of the nonsense you peddle. Dubya is not reaping personal gain from arrangements between oil companies and Iraqi suppliers. Iraq's originally small share of America's total oil imports has shrunk. Your imaginary conspiracy did not effect a sea change in American politics, relegating the Republican Party to minority status for the forseeable future, to drive up Halliburton stock prices a few points. Conspiracy liars used to pretend that the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy intended to establish neocon hegemony over Washington and the Middle East. That guess didn't pan out too well. We get the idea that the Iraq War wasn't a public relations triumph for the Bush crowd. We also get the idea that oil prices are high because of factors no politician can hope to control--dramatically increased demand by the rapidly-expanding economies of China and India.

You have no point to make.
 
You make no attempt to think about any of the nonsense you peddle. Dubya is not reaping personal gain from arrangements between oil companies and Iraqi suppliers. Iraq's originally small share of America's total oil imports has shrunk. Your imaginary conspiracy did not effect a sea change in American politics, relegating the Republican Party to minority status for the forseeable future, to drive up Halliburton stock prices a few points. Conspiracy liars used to pretend that the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy intended to establish neocon hegemony over Washington and the Middle East. That guess didn't pan out too well. We get the idea that the Iraq War wasn't a public relations triumph for the Bush crowd. We also get the idea that oil prices are high because of factors no politician can hope to control--dramatically increased demand by the rapidly-expanding economies of China and India.

You have no point to make.

Dubya is just a stooge propped up by criminals

You don't know where the Iraq oil is so you don't know who is benefiting from it.

Just because the crooks sold out the political party and it's supporters it used and abused doesn't mean they're not guilty of anything. It also doesn’t mean it’s supporters won’t still be stupid enough to make lame excuses for the crooks that used and abused them. It’s so sad and dysfunctional. Get some help.

And even if it were true that nothing panned out exactly like they planned in the beginning wouldn't mean they didn't try. Prison is full of people where things didn't pan out like they originally planned.
 
The only thing 9/11 conspiracy is to you is an excuse to apologize and make lame excuses for the worst President and administration of crooks to ever occupy the office.

And how do you know what kind of deals are going down with the oil? Do you even know where it is? Where does between 100,000 and 300,000 barrels a day of Iraq’s declared oil production that's missing go? For all you know when you pay $3.20 a gallon at the pump they got that oil for free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/world/middleeast/12oil.html
Billions in Oil Missing in Iraq, U.S. Study Says


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8N0VRD80&show_article=1
Exxon Mobil Posts Record Annual Profit


Not that anything can ever happen to them. Dubya took care of that too…

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/weekly_2003/oil_corporations_iraq_immunity.html
Bush Gives Legal Immunity to Transnational Oil Corporations in Iraq


I promised myself that I would waste no more time on agenda-driven robots, but notice what the vacuous LostChild has linked to:

"The report does not give a final conclusion on what happened to the missing fraction of the roughly two million barrels pumped by Iraq each day, but the findings are sure to reinforce longstanding suspicions that smugglers, insurgents and corrupt officials control significant parts of the country’s oil industry."

Yes, that is indeed what most sane people suspect. How Bush becomes part of this picture is another of those unfathomable mysteries. LC asks us to accept his infantile conception of basic economics and imagine a situation where an oil company has miraculously obtained oil without paying for it, producing a glut, and has decided to get rid of the extra product by charging higher prices for it. He is incapable of figuring out that if the oil companies were stealing oil, they could cut their prices and make bigger profits by selling more.

Weep for our system of education. Weep for our future.
 
Dubya is just a stooge propped up by criminals


An empty falsehood. You know absolutely nothing about any of the subjects you pontificate about. An angry, uneducated, unintelligent adolescent is trying to lead a revolution.


You don't know where the Iraq oil is so you don't know who is benefiting from it.


I don't know which group of IRAQIS is benefiting, but I know that no American interests can possibly benefit from siphoning off a tiny fraction of Iraq's output.


Just because the crooks sold out the political party and it's supporters it used and abused doesn't mean they're not guilty of anything. It also doesn’t mean it’s supporters won’t still be stupid enough to make lame excuses for the crooks that used and abused them. It’s so sad and dysfunctional. Get some help.


There are no "crooks" selling out the Republican Party. The lame excuses are the ones fabricated by the cynical charlatans of the 9/11 fantasy movement who peddle their snake oil to hate-filled, empty-headed drones.


And even if it were true that nothing panned out exactly like they planned in the beginning wouldn't mean they didn't try. Prison is full of people where things didn't pan out like they originally planned.



In your narrow, childish world, there is no room for ideas. People scurry about doing mad things for low, venal purposes, or more bizarrely, for no purpose at all. Nobody, however, has any thoughts worth bothering about. It is inconceivable that anyone could view an aggressive totalitarian state with an expressed desire to obtain WMD as a real problem that needs to be addressed. People like Kenneth Pollack write 400-page books just to enable crooks who want to plunder the natural resources of a sovereign state.

You have, as always, completely failed to supply any sort of coherent rationale for your imaginary conspiracy. It blows up buildings in downtown Manhattan in order to create a war-frenzy, but it neglects to link the intended object of the frenzy with the explosions. Your mindlessness was initially amusing; it quickly grew irritating; it is now tiresome.
 
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These days it's simply not enough to have an opinion that the President is bad. Now people must make up these absurd conspiracy theories and wonder why people think they are nut jobs.
 
So basically, to summarize the argument of the TM on this one.....the US regime staged 9/11, didn't include any links to Iraq in the plot because they "didn't need to," went with the WMD excuse instead, didn't plant WMD afterwards, and then switched to a 9/11 link as justification even though they didn't bother creating one in the first place.

And they decided to do it this way because...ummm...that's what they did.

I get the impression that the TM has no problem with this because the alternative is to admit to themselves that they've wasted years of their lives (which they will never have back) on complete nonsense.
 
Is it time to put LostChild on ignore everyone?

Did that after the absurd claims about the demolition charges being silent, etc. Been months now. But it's still funny to see some of his quotes in replies from others. That way I get a few laughs still, but without the annoyance.
 
It used to be good for a laugh but now it is just annoying. I have never encountered such a closed mind before and to think that there are others like that spewing nonsense to impressionable young people is frightening. There has to come a point where someones posts are just irresponsible to permit. Has this point been reached yet with LostChild?
 
So basically, to summarize the argument of the TM on this one.....the US regime staged 9/11, didn't include any links to Iraq in the plot because they "didn't need to," went with the WMD excuse instead, didn't plant WMD afterwards, and then switched to a 9/11 link as justification even though they didn't bother creating one in the first place.

And they decided to do it this way because...ummm...that's what they did.

I get the impression that the TM has no problem with this because the alternative is to admit to themselves that they've wasted years of their lives (which they will never have back) on complete nonsense.


And people wonder why I call them conspiracy liars.

You hit the nail squarely on the head: they have spent years of their lives on total idiocy, with nothing to show for it. They haven't shaken a single conclusion reached by serious researchers and their geopolitical assumptions have been invalidated by events.
 
Come on, let's not make this personal. Keep to the topic, and be civil with each other.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
We also get the idea that oil prices are high because of factors no politician can hope to control--dramatically increased demand by the rapidly-expanding economies of China and India.

Oh so 100,000 to 300,000 barrels a day for going on 5 years now doesn’t cut into this supposed rapidly expanding demand of China and India somewhere along the line? So what are these imaginary Iraqi thieves doing with all this oil if not putting it out on the world market somewhere cutting into the increased worldwide demand? Are they drinking it? And why did Dubya have to give the oil companies Legal Immunity if it’s all just the corrupt Iraqi’s controlling and stealing all this oil?
 
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