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Old 28th September 2008, 04:24 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
You will cease responding to me when the questions become too difficult.
Takes one to know one
You sir are a joke. How about you grow a pair and start answering the questions here, or at least try to understand what's being said to you.
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Old 28th September 2008, 04:25 PM   #122
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[quote]"Take our indifference," the Daily Mississippian's editorial board wrote in an open letter to the Klan on Sept. 16, "as the ultimate symbol of your failure."
[/quote}

Beautifully put.
I would only add "and our laughter" after "indifference".
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Old 28th September 2008, 05:25 PM   #123
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"I've stated on several occasions what it would require to falsify my beliefs that 9/11 was not an inside job. A steel-frame high-rise would have to be destroyed with impact damage and fire the same way WTC1,2 and 7 were destroyed. This would include destroying a building from the top-down to match the destruction of WTC 1 and 2(crush-down/crush-up). And destroying a steel-frame high-rise from the bottom-up to match the destruction of WTC7(implosion)."

Stundie!!

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Old 28th September 2008, 06:32 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Why isn't Mark Roberts interested in pointing this out?
Because he's part of teh jooh conspiracy! He was one of the hundreds of joohs that weren't in the tower that day, because they had been tipped off!

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Because he isn't interested in the truth.
He can't handle the truth! (I should know, I've meet him in person)

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
He is interested in promoting ideological conformity to the government's position.
Exactly. He gets $10,000 a week and an endless supply of Tony's frozen pizza to be a part of the cover up.
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Old 28th September 2008, 06:46 PM   #125
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Yeah Yeah Yeah Right. We all hate the jews here on the truther side. Please.

Got anything else? Why not?
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Old 28th September 2008, 06:59 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Homeland Insurgency View Post
Yeah Yeah Yeah Right. We all hate the jews here on the truther side. Please.

Got anything else? Why not?
It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is an ignorant and dishonest strawman statement.

So don't behave this way. At least imagine how a rational adult would behave and emulate that. Fair enough?

"Got anything else?" You mean all the evidence on our side, whereas you have none? Is that what you mean?

If you think I'm wrong, why not name some of the significant claims that the "truth" movement gets right. You've had plenty of time to think about this.

And while you're at it, please briefly state your position about what happened on 9/11 and what evidence would change your mind.
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Last edited by Gravy; 28th September 2008 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:04 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is an ignorant and dishonest strawman statement.

So don't behave this way. At least imagine how a rational adult would behave and emulate that. Fair enough?

"Got anything else?" You mean all the evidence on our side, whereas you have none? Is that what you mean?

If you think I'm wrong, why not name some of the significant claims that the "truth" movement gets right. You've had plenty of time to think about this.

So do it.
Are you telling me that my doubts about 9/11 are automatically based in anti-Semitism? Is this what you have digressed to?

You are so over.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:09 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Homeland Insurgency View Post
Are you telling me that my doubts about 9/11 are automatically based in anti-Semitism?
Second time: It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is an ignorant and dishonest strawman statement.

If you disagree, then point out where I in any way said or implied this, truther. Are you up to that challenge?
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Last edited by Gravy; 28th September 2008 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:11 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Homeland Insurgency View Post
Are you telling me that my doubts about 9/11 are automatically based in anti-Semitism? Is this what you have digressed to?

You are so over.
Good grief! Did you even read his response before you posted that?
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:14 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Please point out where I in any way said or implied this, truther. Are you up to that challenge?
I thought the evidence was on your side? Did I misinterpret you? What is your point here about anti-Semitism and the truth movement? In a sound bite please.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:17 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
Good grief! Did you even read his response before you posted that?
I can't tell you how much it saddens me to see every single truther demonstrate their irrationality in this thread about my talk about truther irrationality.

I would think that someone with a shred of self-awareness would try hard not to behave that way, to prove me wrong. Instead, they seem to be going out of their way to prove me right.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:19 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I can't tell you how much it saddens me to see every single truther demonstrate their irrationality in this thread about my talk about truther irrationality.

I would think that someone with a shred of self-awareness would try hard not to behave that way, to prove me wrong. Instead, they seem to be going out of their way to prove me right.
No kidding. It's like he responded based on what he wished you said instead of on what you actually said.

But that's the movement in a nutshell.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:20 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Homeland Insurgency View Post
I thought the evidence was on your side? Did I misinterpret you?[
You did. That statement was in response to your question "Got anything else?" as you can see from how my response was formatted.

Quote:
What is your point here about anti-Semitism and the truth movement? In a sound bite please.
Since I've stated it clearly here, I won't repeat myself again. I suggest you read before jerking your knee again.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:23 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I suggest you read before jerking your knee again.
I don't think that's his knee.
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Old 28th September 2008, 07:32 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is an ignorant and dishonest strawman statement.

So don't behave this way. At least imagine how a rational adult would behave and emulate that. Fair enough?

"Got anything else?" You mean all the evidence on our side, whereas you have none? Is that what you mean?

If you think I'm wrong, why not name some of the significant claims that the "truth" movement gets right. You've had plenty of time to think about this.

And while you're at it, please briefly state your position about what happened on 9/11 and what evidence would change your mind.
Oh please. WHAT EVIDENCE? You attack people who don't trust this present administration based on much more then 9/11. And then you point to their government collected evidence and sponsored reports as if that would convince anyone of anything.

And from what I can see here you go off on some nonsense that implies much of it is based in anti-Semitism.

You got the evidence on your side? Then don’t invoke Godwin’s law. Don’t even imply it.
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:01 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Homeland Insurgency View Post
Oh please. WHAT EVIDENCE?
Homeland, Insurgency, I already linked to my website in this thread, where you'll find links to thousands of pieces of evidence. When I asked you to read before jerking your knee I was serious. Why did you immediately do so again?

Have you read the 9/11 Commission report? Have you read the NIST reports? If not, please do. If so, please list some significant things they got wrong.

Quote:
You attack people who don't trust this present administration based on much more then 9/11.
Please support this accusation with facts or retract your statement. That's what rational people do. You want to be rational, don't you?

Quote:
And then you point to their government collected evidence and sponsored reports as if that would convince anyone of anything.
Had you read this thread as I asked you to, you would have seen my links to mountains of evidence not collected by the government. Repeating ignorant and false accusations will never make them true.

Quote:
And from what I can see here you go off on some nonsense that implies much of it is based in anti-Semitism.
Get back to me when you've read the thread and learned what a strawman argument is.

Quote:
You got the evidence on your side? Then don’t invoke Godwin’s law. Don’t even imply it.
No one here has done that. I provided evidence that several early, prominent truth movement leaders were and are anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers. Had you read the thread you'd know that.

How can you not be embarrassed by your behavior, in a thread that is specifically about the behavior you're displaying?


Second and final time, Homeland Insurgency:

If you think I'm wrong, why not name some of the significant claims that the "truth" movement gets right. You've had plenty of time to think about this.

And while you're at it, please briefly state your position about what happened on 9/11 and what evidence would change your mind.
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What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

Last edited by Gravy; 28th September 2008 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:13 PM   #137
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It's like Homeland is really hoping Gravy is going to "slip up" or something to verify his strawman.

Ain't happening.
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:21 PM   #138
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When will Mark Roberts be providing evidence for some of his more ridiculous claims, like the claim that there weren't many cameras at the pentagon in 2001?

Why does Mark Roberts seem to think that the destruction of steel at ground zero is fine? Bill Manning didn't think it was fine. Yes, I know Bill Manning was talking about it from a fire safety standpoint, not explosives.
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:27 PM   #139
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How many times have we told people here that Bill Manning's comments were pre-NCSTA, and that he was fully satisfied by the creation and eventual result from the NIST Team?

A hundred?

A thousand..?
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:29 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
How many times have we told people here that Bill Manning's comments were pre-NCSTA, and that he was fully satisfied by the creation and eventual result from the NIST Team?

A hundred?

A thousand..?

Do you have a qoute from him showing his full satisfaction?

If he was angry that the steel was destroyed, what exactly made him unangry? Was the steel undestroyed?
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:34 PM   #141
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Funniest thing about the Bill Manning citation is that truthers never read to the bottom of that article, which has this link:

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Artic...ICLE_ID=130026

Where the journal states:

Quote:
Yes, it was the terrorist pilots who slammed two jetliners into the Twin Towers. It was the ensuing fire, however, that brought the towers down. Make no mistake about it: This high-rise collapse was no "fluke." The temperatures experienced and heat release rates achieved at the World Trade Center could be seen in future high-rise fires.
But hey, anything to put words in people's mouths and add another stick to the bonfire of "overwhelming evidence" used to convince people.
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:41 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
When will Mark Roberts be providing evidence for some of his more ridiculous claims, like the claim that there weren't many cameras at the pentagon in 2001?

Why does Mark Roberts seem to think that the destruction of steel at ground zero is fine? Bill Manning didn't think it was fine. Yes, I know Bill Manning was talking about it from a fire safety standpoint, not explosives.
I am quoting my own post so I can highlight the bit that adversity1 was unable to comprehend while his knee jerked.
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:44 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
I am quoting my own post so I can highlight the bit that adversity1 was unable to comprehend while his knee jerked.
Right, and if he's only talking about fire safety, then what would he have to do with any of you? You trust him to cast doubt on destruction of evidence but when he and his journal offer their expert opinion that the collapse of the towers was completely realistic via two planes, you ignore him. This is all that you truthers can do, use use use. You find something that fits for the moment, grab it and deploy it as something that adds to the cloud of doubt you've created.
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:45 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
When will Mark Roberts be providing evidence for some of his more ridiculous claims, like the claim that there weren't many cameras at the pentagon in 2001?
Hello, mchapman. Welcome to the forums. Please point out where I made this claim.

Quote:
Why does Mark Roberts seem to think that the destruction of steel at ground zero is fine?
Please point out where I said or implied any such thing, and be prepared to do the same with any subsequent claims you make about me. That's known as having evidence to support your statements. Fair enough?
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:48 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
When will Mark Roberts be providing evidence for some of his more ridiculous claims, like the claim that there weren't many cameras at the pentagon in 2001?

Why does Mark Roberts seem to think that the destruction of steel at ground zero is fine? Bill Manning didn't think it was fine. Yes, I know Bill Manning was talking about it from a fire safety standpoint, not explosives.
out of the woodwork off topic terrorist apologist invade, unarmed, no evidence
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Old 28th September 2008, 08:51 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Hello, mchapman. Welcome to the forums. Please point out where I made this claim.
Do you not read your own work? You made that claim on page 10 of this document:

911myths.com/911TruthOrgCritiqueMay06.pdf

where you stated, without a source, that:

Quote:
The Pentagon uses “live” perimiter security, mostly men in vehicles. In 2001 there were very few security cameras pointing at the building
So, could you please tell us exactly how many is "very few" and where did you get this information?
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:06 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
Do you not read your own work? You made that claim on page 10 of this document:

911myths.com/911TruthOrgCritiqueMay06.pdf

where you stated, without a source, that:

So, could you please tell us exactly how many is "very few" and where did you get this information?
Ah, right. I wrote that for Les Jamieson in the first month I was doing this stuff, and didn't include a citation. More information is on the Pentagon section of my website:

Quote:
As for the question, "Where are all those Pentagon video cameras?" one answer is that the Pentagon primarily uses live security – human beings – for its perimeter security. (Since 9/11 more cameras may have been installed. I don’t have information on that.) Here's a post on the BAUT forum from a Pentagon employee who was there on 9/11. An excerpt:
"Why isn't there more video? Without telling too much of what I know of Pentagon security, you would be surprised how few cameras there are outside the building. Humans actively patrolling a building's perimeter are a tad more effective than dozens of monitors which may or may not be watched at any given moment."
Excerpt from statement of FBI Agent Jacqueline McGuire, who viewed all the videotapes collected as evidence:
fifty-six (56) of these videotapes did not show either the Pentagon building, the Pentagon crash site, or the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon.....I personally reviewed the remaining twenty-nine (29) videotapes. I determined that sixteen (16) of these video tapes did not show the Pentagon crash site and did not show the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon.....Out of the remaining thirteen (13) videotapes, which did show the Pentagon crash site, twelve (12) videotapes only showed the Pentagon after. I determined that only one videotape showed the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 Source
Longer video clips from the Pentagon parking lot cameras

Citgo Video (Doesn't show plane)

Doubletree hotel video (15 mins, shows fireball, doesn't show plane)
You'll find extensive information about steel collection, examination, and disposal on this page of my site, as well as in the NIST and FEMA reports.

I'll ask you what I've asked others in this thread:

Can you briefly state your position about what happened on 9/11 and what evidence would change your mind?

And, can you name some of the significant claims that the "truth" movement gets right?
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:11 PM   #148
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You disappoint me. I was expecting maybe a link to a pentagon document, or perhaps a news story but no.....your source is a post on an internet forum.

I think that tells us everything we need to know about Mark Roberts' "research".

So what exactly was Bill Manning so upset about? Did you not ask the guy who was involved in the decision to destroy the steel why that decision was made?
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:15 PM   #149
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Quote:
Can you briefly state your position about what happened on 9/11 and what evidence would change your mind?

And, can you name some of the significant claims that the "truth" movement gets right?
It is not as simple as claims they have gotten right. Most truther claims are claims that not enough investigation has been done.

For example, I don't claim as a fact that Mahmood ahmed wired 100,000 to Atta, but I would like to see it investigated further than "Oh it was an indian newspaper so probably false"

My position on 9/11 is that there are many aspects of it unexplained, or events within it that are so unusual they require more investigation.
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:24 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
My position on 9/11 is that there are many aspects of it unexplained, or events within it that are so unusual they require more investigation.
Every single professional investigator and law enforcement official on the planet seems to be in disagreement with your assessments, so I guess you're out of luck.

But hey, keep expressing your personal incredulity on Internet forums. I'm sure that will get your new investigation off the ground.

Last edited by johnny karate; 28th September 2008 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:26 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
My position on 9/11 is that there are many aspects of it unexplained, or events within it that are so unusual they require more investigation.
Name one, with evidence to support a new investigation.

Did you fail to understand the research already done? Why do you have no evidence, or idea what happen on 9/11? Why can't you specify what is wrong with the volumes of evidence already available?

A new investigation? What make you think you will grow the skills to understand a new investigation?

Do you think you are the one who needs to learn the skills to understand what has been done to date? Do you think a getting a PhD in the next 7 years would help you stop wallowing in hearsay and lies?

Last edited by beachnut; 28th September 2008 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:42 PM   #152
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My all time favorite Gravy claim is when he told the loose change boys he physically touched the once molten aluminum that had previously dripped out from the WTC impact areas.

That one is a classic for sure.
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:56 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
My all time favorite Gravy claim is when he told the loose change boys he physically touched the once molten aluminum that had previously dripped out from the WTC impact areas.

That one is a classic for sure.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...13&postcount=5
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Old 28th September 2008, 09:58 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
You disappoint me. I was expecting maybe a link to a pentagon document, or perhaps a news story but no.....your source is a post on an internet forum.

I think that tells us everything we need to know about Mark Roberts' "research".
I provided a source for one explanation of why there might be few cameras outside the Pentagon, and I confirmed that he worked at the Pentagon (which was widely known at BAUT anyway). This isn't an issue that interests me in the least, nor does it affect in any way what happened at the Pentagon, so I spent no more time on it.

Many times I've encouraged truthers to do their own research about this, since it does interest them. If you are one of those people, I encourage you to satisfy your curiosity to the best of your ability.

Quote:
So what exactly was Bill Manning so upset about?
In your haste to find a mistake by me you skipped over the answer to your question on page 16 of that May, 2006 paper of mine. (Note that this also refutes your claim that I seem to think the destruction of steel was "fine.")

Quote:
The quote from Fire Engineering is, as usual, taken out of context. Its author, Bill Manning, was justifiably angry that more steel was not preserved, because he wanted fire safety engineers like himself to be able to study it in order to better answer these questions:

"Can the fire service really handle high rise fires adequately? What part did lightweight steel trusses, some reported to have been in excess of 50 feet long, play in the collapse? How effective was the modern sprayed-on steel "fireproofing" employed at the WTC? How relevant to today's fires are the criteria established for the ASTM E-119 fire resistance test developed in the 1920's? When should the defend-in-place strategy for the WTC be used and not used for large high-rise fires? What can be done to make communication by radio possible in high-rise buildings?" (Fire Engineering, February, 2002)

Manning’s concern was saving lives in high rise fires. The FEMA and NIST reports addressed these issues, of course, but Manning’s concerns were perhaps more specific. He did not, and does not, support the “controlled demolition” theory, or any conspiracy theory, at all.
You can read Manning's June, 2002 Fire Engineering editorial in which he states his gratitude that the investigation was expanded far beyond FEMA's cursory job – something that virtually everyone involved agreed needed to be done.

You could also have found this information with a quick internet search. You could have asked Bill Manning these questions yourself. Why didn't you?

Quote:
Did you not ask the guy who was involved in the decision to destroy the steel why that decision was made?
I have already pointed you to the resources to answer this question. I created my website so that I do not have to answer the same questions over and over. I hope you find it a valuable resource.
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Old 28th September 2008, 10:02 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
My all time favorite Gravy claim is when he told the loose change boys he physically touched the once molten aluminum that had previously dripped out from the WTC impact areas.

Without a source I can only assume you are mistaken, because below is a statement by Mark in which he does not claim an origin for the aluminum that you have attributed to him.

Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I have held peices of cooled molten aluminum from the south tower in my hand. And not from the bottom of the debris pile, either.
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
That one is a classic for sure.

Careful with those memories, pal...
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Old 28th September 2008, 10:10 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by mchapman View Post
It is not as simple as claims they have gotten right. Most truther claims are claims that not enough investigation has been done.
It's not a trick question. Truthers have been investigating this themselves for years, and have made hundreds of specific claims about the events of 9/11. If you can, please name some significant claims that they get right.

Quote:
For example, I don't claim as a fact that Mahmood ahmed wired 100,000 to Atta, but I would like to see it investigated further than "Oh it was an indian newspaper so probably false"
What effort have you made to answer your questions? You understand that the answers aren't just going to magically appear in your mailbox, right?

So if this is important to you, what have you done to learn about it?

Have you read the 9/11 Commission report and its staff monograph on terrorist financing? I'd like an answer to these questions, please.

Further, you linked to my paper at 911myths.com. Had you taken an interest you could have read Mike Williams' extensive treatment of this subject there.

Quote:
My position on 9/11 is that there are many aspects of it unexplained, or events within it that are so unusual they require more investigation.
Please don't play games. Specifically what do you believe is unexplained, and what efforts have you made to seek explanations?
What documents and reports and books have you read?
What sites have you visited to find answers?
Whom have you contacted?

And I ask you again: what evidence would change your mind about the specific things you think are unexplained?
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Last edited by Gravy; 28th September 2008 at 10:21 PM. Reason: tpyo
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Old 28th September 2008, 10:17 PM   #157
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What I find most amusing about this thread is the way the CTists carry on as if the entire 9/11 sub-forum at JREF will completely disintegrate if they can find just one thing wrong with things Gravy has said in the past. From what I have seen, if anyone, CTist or otherwise, finds something Gravy has gotten wrong, he corrects it and thanks them. The nerve!

I guess it makes sense when compared to the way the CTists seem to think that a single contradiction in or between any of the reports known to date means that the entire body of evidence can be dismissed.

1) Find contradiction.
2) Claim inside job.
3) ???
4) Profit!
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Old 28th September 2008, 10:19 PM   #158
Sizzler
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Without a source I can only assume you are mistaken, because below is a statement by Mark in which he does not claim an origin for the aluminum that you have attributed to him.






Careful with those memories, pal...
Quote:
The pieces of WTC aluminum I handled had characteristics of having cooled while falling in the air (I suppose falling through water is also a possibility). The curator said to me "I bet you can't guess what this is," but I guessed right away. This was before I knew of the conspiracy nonsense or the video of molten material coming from the south tower.
He revealed this "fact" to the loose change boys in one of their debates. I don't feel like digging it up. Like the quote above, Gravy doesn't directly say where it came from, but he does mention the South Tower and dripping molten metal in the same breath. Perhaps another one of his propaganda techniques.

Too funny in my opinion.
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Old 28th September 2008, 10:20 PM   #159
Cl1mh4224rd
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
1) Find contradiction.
2) Claim inside job.
3) ???
4) Profit!

Minor correction...
  1. Claim inside job.
  2. Find contradiction.
  3. ???
  4. Profit!

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Old 28th September 2008, 10:21 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Minor correction...
  1. Claim inside job.
  2. Find contradiction.
  3. ???
  4. Profit!

D'oh! You are absolutely correct. Thank you.

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