Electric universe theories here.

Reality Check · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
keep going boys and girls

This boy is keeping going. Keep digging Sol88 :dig:

!

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

Reality Check said:
That is because there need not be any electric current forming the plasma - all you need is heat from any source, e.g. fusion. It is easier in experiments here on Earth to use electricity.

The plasma is not magnetically reconnecting. It is the magnetic field in the plasma that is reconnecting.

Yup, you are a tripper RC!

From wiki's MR page that you linked to...

According to simple resistive magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) theory, reconnection happens because the plasma's electrical resistivity near the boundary layer opposes the currents necessary to sustain the change in the magnetic field. The need for such a current can be seen from one of Maxwell's equations,

$e5819c62f5200905fb3e2313ccd3339a.png$

The resistivity of the current layer allows magnetic flux from either side to diffuse through the current layer, cancelling out flux from the other side of the boundary. When this happens, the plasma is pulled out by magnetic tension along the direction of the magnetic field lines. The resulting drop in pressure pulls more plasma and magnetic flux into the central region, yielding a self-sustaining process.

A current problem in plasma physics is that observed reconnection happens much faster than predicted by MHD in high Lundquist number plasmas: solar flares, for example, proceed 13-14 orders of magnitude faster than a naive calculation would suggest, and several orders of magnitude faster than current theoretical models that include turbulence and kinetic effects. There are two competing theories to explain the discrepancy. One posits that the electromagnetic turbulence in the boundary layer is sufficiently strong to scatter electrons, raising the plasma's local resistivity. This would allow the magnetic flux to diffuse faster.

Mmmm.....makes you wonder eh

MR belongs in the same basket (waste) as BH's, DM, DE......et cetera!

What does follow magnetic field lines are electrons! i.e an electric current

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Michael Mozina said:
A coronal loop is not a "frozen" magnetic line, but rather it is a moving column of flowing plasma full of kinetic energy, much like any discharge in the Earth's atmosphere. The magnetic fields are not there all by themselves doing all the work by themselves, and they are not driving the parade. The magnetic fields exist *BECAUSE OF* the current flow inside the loop and they are generated by the current flow inside that loop that is heating the plasma inside the loop. The field that forms does in fact "store energy", but only while the current flow remains. Once that current flow stops flowing through the loop, the field dissipates and it fades away just like when you turn off an ordinary plasma ball.

Michael Mozina, again showing your lack of knowledge of electrodynamics. The current flowing in and along the field lines of the loop cannot create the magnetic field of the loop itself. It can only generate the toroidal field component it can never create a magnetic field in the direction of the current flow.

Reality Check · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
Yup, you are a tripper RC!

From wiki's MR page that you linked to...

Mmmm.....makes you wonder eh

MR belongs in the same basket (waste) as BH's, DM, DE......et cetera!

What does follow magnetic field lines are electrons! i.e an electric current

Yup, you are a tripper Sol88!

You need to read:
My "need not be any electric current forming the plasma" is refering to the plasma being formed, i.e. creation of plasma.
The article is talking about the flow of current through the magnetic reconnection (in a plasma that is already formed).

Magnetic reconnection is a experimentally verified phenomena that is used daily in plasma physics labs around the world for research: Try reading some of the 3016 preprints that are available (a lot of theory but plenty of experimental results too).

MR belongs in the same basket (actually observed) as BH's, DM and DE!

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
Boy your story has changed since we've talked last!

My story has not changed a bit, I may have expanded on it to try to make it clearer to nitwits like you and Michael Mozina.

But if you think I changed anything, please quote me on it Sol88

Sol88 said:
Why are you people so deluded on the concept of magnetic reconnection??

Maybe because it is observer in space, in the laboratory and in numerical modeling.

Sol88 said:
Why do we not extract energy here on the Earths surface that utilizes this "majik" magnetic reconnection?
Just take two ferromagnets and wave them past each other and bingo!!

Because it would cost more to generate it than it would deliver in any usable form. What would you do with accelerated plasma? And just "waving two ferromagnets is not gonna get you anything with reconnection. Then it is better to use some coils and have induction whilst you are waving.

Sol88 said:
but you go on believing that reconnection is a physical event, see where that gets you and I'm sure you'll work it out soon enough!

yes, because it is observed in space and in the laboratory.
where should it get me Sol88, master of ambiguous comments

Sol88 said:
remember

Hell even MR ,if where true, would still "prove" that the EM force is the DOMINATE force in the Universe and not gravity, either way bye bye Big Bang!!!

this is the most stupid thing ever, Sol88 and it not even dignifies a comment.

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
Yup, you are a tripper RC!

From wiki's MR page that you linked to...

Mmmm.....makes you wonder eh

MR belongs in the same basket (waste) as BH's, DM, DE......et cetera!

What does follow magnetic field lines are electrons! i.e an electric current

If you would only bother to read real papers about magnetic reconnection (e.g. in the Earth's magnetotail) you would have the various currents coming out of your nose and ears, dear Sol88. One of the characteristic currents that are generated around a reconnection site are the Hall currents (which flow perpendicular to the magnetic field) which are closed by field aligned currents, and this Hall system generates a quadrupolar magnetic field signature which have clearly been measured by e.g. Runov et al. (2003) (paper also available as pdf per request) using the four Cluster spacecraft.

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

tusenfem said:
If you would only bother to read real papers about magnetic reconnection (e.g. in the Earth's magnetotail) you would have the various currents coming out of your nose and ears, dear Sol88. One of the characteristic currents that are generated around a reconnection site are the Hall currents (which flow perpendicular to the magnetic field) which are closed by field aligned currents, and this Hall system generates a quadrupolar magnetic field signature which have clearly been measured by e.g. Runov et al. (2003) (paper also available as pdf per request) using the four Cluster spacecraft.

currents?

electric currents?

no you don't say, thats amazing!

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
currents? electric currents? no you don't say, thats amazing!

I knew you would be flabbergasted, because unlike the PU/PC/EU/ES/EC community would like the world to believe, electric currents are an important component of mainstream plasma(astro)physcis and space physics.

Dancing David · Jul 3, 2009

Michael Mozina said:
RC's added bits of red.....

Nobody is denying that coronal loops *enter* the corona. It's where they originate (location of footprints) that we are debating.

FYI, the very name of the TRACE instrument is related to what these folks *ASSUMED* before they even launched the instrument. They simply *ASSUMED* that there was a "transition region" where plasma rises in temperature from thousands up to millions of degrees that sits somewhere above the photosphere and lower chromosphere. The existence and location of a "transitional region" high up in the atmosphere was already *ASSUMED* even before launch. Birkeland's solar model doesn't work that way, and his model "predicts" these specific sorts of observations and it predicts them to begin *UNDER* the photosphere as well as potentially above the photosphere as well.

[qimg]http://solar-b.nao.ac.jp/news/070321Flare/SOT_ca_061213flare_cl_lg_frame_076.bmp[/qimg]

Here is an image of a flare in a HINODE image having a direct influence on the intensity of light in the photosphere, meaning the flare started *UNDER* the photosphere, not above it. Below is another composite image which shows all sorts of 171A activity underneath of the photosphere.

[qimg]http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/T171_1600_WL_000606_1500.gif[/qimg]

http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/TRACEpodarchive1.html

How do you show the location of the material in the pictures as being under the photosphere?

I am not saying that does not seem liely and perhaps in agreement with the standard model.

Dancing David · Jul 3, 2009

Michael Mozina said:
You mean where you refused to read or comprehend the term "metallic globe"?

Where did Birkeland say "the sun is a metal globe"?

Dancing David · Jul 3, 2009

Michael Mozina said:
We can observe lightening in the Earth's atmosphere from space. What makes you think we could not see a discharge from below the photosphere at a high energy wavelength?

Sorry MM this is silly, you should avoid that.

Um, the earth's atmoshpere and the photosphere of the sun are similar in very few respects. A very poor argument to say the least.

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

tusenfem said:
I knew you would be flabbergasted, because unlike the PU/PC/EU/ES/EC community would like the world to believe, electric currents are an important component of mainstream plasma(astro)physcis and space physics.

Yeah but they (electric currents) do nothing, bar make some pretty lights and release majik "magnetic reconnection" energy!

Now it's become all clear

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

Oh and accelerate charged particles, sending them throughout the universe!

Like them rascally pulsars!

How big is the electric field involved in your garden variety pulsar?

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

double post

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

Ok question for the non EU'rs

What do electric currents and electric fields DO in space? (which is 99.99% matter in the plasma state)?

edd · Jul 3, 2009

"What do electric currents and electric fields DO in space? (which is 99.99% matter in the plasma state)?"

What sort of question is that?! I mean, it's like saying "What do apples DO on trees?"

And space isn't 99.99% plasma. If anything it's mostly empty, and if you mean what is the main thing in space then it ain't baryonic matter.

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Dancing David said:
Where did Birkeland say "the sun is a metal globe"?

I am still waiting to be pointed to where Birkeland discusses the "solar wind" and the electrons dragging along the ions. I did not find it in da-biggie-book.

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
Yeah but they (electric currents) do nothing, bar make some pretty lights and release majik "magnetic reconnection" energy!

Now it's become all clear

Oh and accelerate charged particles, sending them throughout the universe!

Like them rascally pulsars! How big is the electric field involved in your garden variety pulsar?

What do electric currents and electric fields DO in space? (which is 99.99% matter in the plasma state)?

Wow, are you going to answer my questions too? (nah don't think so)

Electric currents can make pretty light, they do not, however release magnetic energy. Apparently, you still have not read any of the papers concerning reconnection. The energy is released as bulk plasma acceleration, which is not a current, as you probably don't know.
Glad it is clear to you, I have not got the foggiest.
Currents do not "accelerate" particles, currents are flowing net-charge. This is just stupidity on top of dumbness and ignorance. wrapped in a blanket of trolling and ingloriousness
Calculate the electric field at the poles of a pulsar for yourself. Magnetic field of 10¹² Gauss, radius of 10 km, rotational rate of 3 seconds, inclination of 30 degrees and E = - v x B.
Oh they do absolutely nothing, watch TV now and then when they get bored, otherwise they either just sit or flow. They might follow the Tour de France starting this weekend.

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

edd said:
"What do electric currents and electric fields DO in space? (which is 99.99% matter in the plasma state)?"

What sort of question is that?! I mean, it's like saying "What do apples DO on trees?"

And space isn't 99.99% plasma. If anything it's mostly empty, and if you mean what is the main thing in space then it ain't baryonic matter.

Ahhh I see your problem Edd, you know sqat!

I'll let you in on a secret space, outer space, is mostly ionized hydrogen i.e. a PLASMA which you mat not be aware is an electrically conductive medium!

Outer space (often simply called space) comprises the relatively empty regions of the universe outside the atmospheres of celestial bodies. Outer space is used to distinguish it from airspace and terrestrial locations.

Contrary to popular understanding, outer space is not completely empty (i.e. a perfect vacuum), but contains a low density of particles, predominantly hydrogen plasma, as well as electromagnetic radiation and neutrinos. Hypothetically, it also contains dark matter and dark energy.

And Hypothetically it contains "stuff" that the mainstream have NO idea what it is but it MUST be there, or our model the BB, expanding universe is wrong which we are sure it's not!

Have a look at this pretty picture

Protium, the most common isotope of hydrogen, has one proton and one electron. Unique among all stable isotopes, it has no neutrons (see diproton for discussion of why others do not exist).

Throughout the universe, hydrogen is mostly found in the atomic and plasma states whose properties are quite different from molecular hydrogen. As a plasma, hydrogen's electron and proton are not bound together, resulting in very high electrical conductivity and high emissivity (producing the light from the sun and other stars). The charged particles are highly influenced by magnetic and electric fields. For example, in the solar wind they interact with the Earth's magnetosphere giving rise to Birkeland currents and the aurora. Hydrogen is found in the neutral atomic state in the Interstellar medium. The large amount of neutral hydrogen found in the damped Lyman-alpha systems is thought to dominate the cosmological baryonic density of the Universe up to redshift z=4.[56]

MMmmmmmm......now think my man!

edd · Jul 3, 2009

I know more than enough thanks. You'll note that way back when I was amongst the first to point out that one of the few things your lot is getting correct is that nearly all baryonic matter in the universe is indeed in the plasma state. What I'm pointing out is that this is not the same as saying space is nearly all plasma.

It's also wrong to say that there's "a low density of particles, predominantly hydrogen plasma, as well as electromagnetic radiation and neutrinos."
Do you know what the baryon to photon ratio is?

Now, I'll certainly concede that by energy density baryons outweigh the photons, but if you do that you'll have to concede that the baryons are outweighed by the dark sector.

Which I know you don't believe in, but that doesn't change the truth of the matter.

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

tusenfem said:
Wow, are you going to answer my questions too? (nah don't think so)

Currents do not "accelerate" particles, currents are flowing net-charge. This is just stupidity on top of dumbness and ignorance. wrapped in a blanket of trolling and ingloriousness

Oh they do absolutely nothing, watch TV now and then when they get bored, otherwise they either just sit or flow. They might follow the Tour de France starting this weekend.

1 Currents form instabilities such a YOUR beloved double layers, which as you most prolly know DO accelerate charged particles very efficiently (way more than gravity)

2

lets look at some more pretty mainstream pictures

Messier 87 Shows Off for Hundreds of Earth-bound Astronomers

The results give first experimental evidence that particles are accelerated to extremely high energies in the immediate vicinity of a supermassive black hole and then emit the observed gamma rays. The gamma rays have energies a trillion times higher than the energy of visible light.

How does a black hole do that again?

Relativistic jets

Relativistic jets are extremely powerful jets of plasma which emerge from the centers of some active galaxies, notably radio galaxies and quasars. Their lengths can reach several thousand[1] or even hundreds of thousands of light years.[2] It is believed that the twisting of magnetic fields in the accretion disk collimates the outflow along the rotation axis of the central object, so that when conditions are suitable, a jet will emerge from each face of the accretion disk. If the jet is oriented along the line of sight to earth, relativistic beaming will change its apparent brightness. Popular mechanisms for the creation of jets[3][4] and the composition of jets[5] are still a matter of much debate in the scientific community. It is believed that the jets are composed of an electrically neutral mixture of electrons, positrons and protons in some proportion.

Oh I see mainstream still have much debate over it.

Now what does accelerate charged particles?

Double layers and magnetic and electric fields!

By Gamma-Rays Alone: Fermi Raises the Curtain on 16 New Pulsars

The very intense magnetic and electric fields of a pulsar accelerate charged particles to nearly the speed of light, and these particles are ultimately responsible for the gamma-ray emissions.

No!!!!! Did they just say The very intense magnetic and electric fields of a pulsar accelerate charged particles to nearly the speed of light No magnetic reconnection?? Tangled maganetic field lines snapping and breaking????

Very strange!

Maybe some should tell NASA that they mentioned electric fields!

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
1 Currents form instabilities such a YOUR beloved double layers, which as you most prolly know DO accelerate charged particles very efficiently (way more than gravity)

And double layers are not currents, they are electric fields which may occur in a current carrying plasma. If you want to call a spade a spade, Sol88 you might at least get your facts right.

Sol88 said:
2

Sol88 said:
lets look at some more pretty mainstream pictures

[qimg]http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/M87_zoom.jpg[/qimg]

Messier 87 Shows Off for Hundreds of Earth-bound Astronomers

How does a black hole do that again?

I am sure it is explained on that page somewhere

Sol88 said:
Relativistic jets
Oh I see mainstream still have much debate over it.
Now what does accelerate charged particles?
Double layers and magnetic and electric fields!

Is there something you want to say here? You guys cannot even make out whether the Sun is an anode or a cathode, talking about basics! And then complain about the fact that mainstream has a number of qualified methods to create the jets, whah!

But that is all you can, isn't it, Sol88, complain complain complain. Must have been bad for you, when you dropped out of college, when you wanted so desperately to study physics and astronomy, but were not good enough.

Up to now, nothing solid has come from you, on any topic, did you get the electric field at the polar cap of the pulsar?

Sol88 said:
By Gamma-Rays Alone: Fermi Raises the Curtain on 16 New Pulsars

No!!!!! Did they just say The very intense magnetic and electric fields of a pulsar accelerate charged particles to nearly the speed of light No magnetic reconnection?? Tangled maganetic field lines snapping and breaking????

Very strange!

Maybe some should tell NASA that they mentioned electric fields!

Ahhhhh the old "mainstream does not have electric fields and currents" dogma of the PU/PC/EU/ES/EC community. No matter how many mainstream papers are cited showing the importance of electric fields and currents, the crackpots keep on claiming that "mainstream does not have electric fields and currents".

For your information, I wrote a chapter in my thesis in which I had a double layer at the polar cap of a pulsar. A variation of the rather standard model by Don Melrose, 1978 with a time varying electric field. And look, it has all your favourites, Sollieboy!:

Melrose abstract said:
The reported investigation has the objective to develop the theory of amplified linear acceleration emission (ALAE) by relativistic electrons propagating along curved magnetic field lines, and to explore it as a mechanism for pulsar radio emission. Existing pulsar radio emission mechanisms are examined, taking into account a critique of 'coherent' emission and an alternative emission mechanism considered by Hardee and Rose (1976) and Hinata (1976). Attention is given to a qualitative discussion of ALAE, the assumptions and emission formulas in the case of linear acceleration emission, the transfer equation for linear acceleration emission, aspects of amplified linear acceleration emission, and the effect of curved field lines. In applying ALAE to pulsars, the essential features which must be explained are the observed frequency range of emission, the inferred brightness temperatures, and the estimated power radiated.

What do you want more?

Sol88 · Jul 3, 2009

But that is all you can, isn't it, Sol88, complain complain complain. Must have been bad for you, when you dropped out of college, when you wanted so desperately to study physics and astronomy, but were not good enough.

Yep!

Because you are pissing my money up against the wall!

The BB, String, steady state et cetara our leading us down a dead end.

Where as the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE opens up some pretty awesome possibilities, such as long range high speed space travel and UNLIMITED FREE energy, which is why I think that the "mainstream" cover up is complete!!!

Could you imagine what military and economic advantages to having an unlimited access to unlimited free power (electrical energy)??

All wars have been over resources and the loosing faction usually loose because of the finite nature of said resources (oil, gold, land et cetera)!

That Tesla fella knew what was what! The electric universe even has strong ties with the most brilliant inventor and visionary of our time!!

I mean have you ever read up on the STS-75 mission?

Google it!

So why are we still piss'n about with reaction motors that have to carry their fuel with them?

EARLY FINDINGS FROM TETHERED SATELLITE MISSION
POINT TO REVAMPING OF SPACE PHYSICS THEORIES

Models, accepted by scientists for more than 30 years,
are incorrect and must be rewritten. This assessment follows
analysis by a joint U.S.-Italian Tethered Satellite
investigating team of the information gathered during the mission.

During STS-75, a tether system was being unreeled to
nearly 13 miles above Columbia's payload bay. Just short of
the full distance, its tether broke. Nevertheless, the
science instruments on the satellite and Shuttle, which had
been operating during the five hours of deployment
operations, sent a flood of readings that were received and
recorded by scientists on the ground. "Even the quick-look
made to date reveals that this data harvest is rich in
content," said Dr. Nobie Stone, NASA TSS-1R mission scientist
at the Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL.

"Perhaps the most significant finding," Stone said, "is
that tether currents proved to be up to three times greater
than existing theoretical models predicted prior to the
mission. With the amount of power generated being directly
proportional to the current, this bodes well for
technological applications."

"Reversing the direction of current flow puts the system
into an electric-motor mode," Stone explained. This harnessed
energy could furnish thrust for reboosting a space station,
satellite or Shuttle in a decaying orbit.

So I wonder why those NASA "dust bunnies" are so interested in our little experiment, we nearly found the keys!

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Ah, now we are at Tesla, Birkelands older brother.
Well, everything by Tesla can be found on the web at loads of conspiracy sites. I have even downloaded lots of stuff. Wanna have it, so you can build your own free energy machine? Bezillions of peeps in the world, and nobody builds a working Tesla free energy machine, must be The Man who stops them, together with the Jews, the gays, the freemasons, the Bavarian illuminati, the Scientologists, the communists, the the the

And yes, I know about the STS-75, I was even invited to join that project, thank you very much. Wanna explain how it works, Sol88 or are you, as usual, just throwing around stuff to sound important, like "Look what I can say!" Oh, and something went wrong in that experiment, but basically that was sabotage by the anti-electricity science gang.

edd · Jul 3, 2009

Sol88 said:
Where as the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE opens up some pretty awesome possibilities, such as long range high speed space travel and UNLIMITED FREE energy, which is why I think that the "mainstream" cover up is complete!!!

Yeah, shame it's wrong.

Seriously, you have it utterly backwards if you say something like

The BB, String, steady state et cetara our leading us down a dead end.

The theories are lead by evidence, not the other way round.

Could you imagine what military and economic advantages to having an unlimited access to unlimited free power (electrical energy)??

I'm frankly terrified that you think that us agreeing with you will suddenly make energy free. I'm beyond terrified by the fact the first thing you want to do with free energy is give it to the military to go blow stuff up. I thought you were merely harmlessly crazy until this point.

tusenfem · Jul 3, 2009

Just for fun I looked up the publication of the tether experiment. It was Agüero et al., JGR, 1999.

So what were the results of the current in the tether? You might be surprised, let me give you part of the conclusions on the experiment:

Agüero et al. said:
4.1. Current Consistency and Continuity
Before attempting to understand current collection by the orbiter it is useful to assume ourselves that the simultaneous SPREE and SA measurements are consistent with our guiding equatins (1) and (2) under reasonable ionospheric conditions. Figure 4 shows that as φorb and φarc varied from ~-600 V and ~-90 V to ~-25 V and ~-30 V, the tether current rose from 0.97 to 1.1 A. Assuming that Rt1 = 1650 Ω, Ohm's law indicates that the satellite-charging level φsat should increase from 1165 to 1583 V. While a magnetic field strength of 28,000 nT and a satellite radius rsat of 0.8 m, φ0 in eqation (2) equals 11 V. Substituting these values into (2) and using the average values of α and β, gives I0 = 0.034 A in both instances. This agrees with the values of I0 determined independently for a plasma with ne = 10¹² m^-3 and Te = 1100 - 1200 K detected at the satellite near the time of the break event [Gilchrist et al., 1998]

[snip paragraph about Gilchrist and]

With the orbiter charged to ~-600 V and the assumed density and temperature of O+ ions near the orbiter of ~80 x 10¹¹ and ~1160 K, respectively, A-96 predicts an orbiter collected ion current of 0.081 A. this is a factor of 12 less that the 0.97 A recorded by the SA during phase 1. Aguero et al [1998] suggested that ions impacting orbiter surfaces with kinetic energies of ~600 eV ejected secondary electrons whose emisson has two effects. First, they contribute directly to the current collected by the orbiter. Second, in crossing the sheath they are accelerated to energies at whicht the cross section for ionizatin collistions with neutrals, σi, is large. Secondary ions created in the sheat are then attracted tothe negatively charged conducting surfaces and also contribute to current collection. Observational evidence for the existence of suchsecondary electrons and ions appears in the particle spectra in Figure 5, in which the secondary ions aare those with energies below the charging peaks.

Naturally there is lots more in the paper, this is just a small thing that shows some important stuff. For one, that they needed a long tether of ~20 km and a magnetic field of 28000 nT to get 1 A of current. Now go into interplanetary space with a magnetic field of say 5 nT, then the current generated will be 5/28000 = 1/5000 (to be nice) A.

Now, this was current collection, and as in the press release, "Reversing the direction of current flow puts the system into an electric-motor mode", so you first have collect energy, and then turn it around, drive the current from the satellite to get "thrust."

This would be a nice electricity source for low orbiting spacecraft (high B field) apart from the special attidude necessary of the shuttle.

For those interested, there is a pdf.

Zeuzzz · Jul 3, 2009

edd said:
What I'm pointing out is that this is not the same as saying space is nearly all plasma.

Yeah if your being pedantic then the universe is nearly entirely empty. That is, if we're considering Bohms basic model of the atom and the amount of space between atoms.

But still, the % of the matter in the universe is ~99.999% matter in the plasma state. Not the volume of space.

Michael Mozina · Jul 3, 2009

Reality Check said:
The same thing that heats all of them. I do not have an opinion.

You have an opinion that it definitely is not due to an electrical discharge. Why?

Currently there is only the observation that coronal loops heat plasma from ~6000 K to millions of K.

Well, come on. You said you could "explain" these images, but you can't even explain the light source of a single original image in terms of the 'cause' of the heating. Bruce demonstrated that electrical discharge theory could and would explain such events. What's wrong with his solution and Birkeland's solution?

The exact mechanisms causing it are unknown.

It was not "unknown" to Birkeland or to Bruce or to Alfven. It's only "unknown" to you because you've somehow made up your mind that you already know that electrical discharges are not the culprit even though that would be and is the most logical and likely conclusion since electrical discharges heat plasma in our own atmosphere.

That is why there is so much research being done on coronal loops and why you have so many pretty pictures to be wrong about.

If you don't "know" the cause of what heats the plasma from thousands to millions of degrees yet, how do you know I "wrong" again?

Michael Mozina · Jul 3, 2009

GeeMack said:
Wrong about seeing 4000 kilometers into the photosphere

Demonstrate your claim.

and wrong about running difference images showing some kind of solid features.

Of course you're still cowering in the corner, not addressing any specific frame, no quadrant, no specific observation in the image. You've already blown it twice: "What flying stuff?" and your comment about the RD technique itself being responsible for persistence were totally and completely and utterly wrong. You missed even the basics when you claimed that there is no light source too, because the light source, namely the corona loops and corona emit the light that lights up the pixels that are then subtracted from one another. You've missed everything. RC is fairing only modestly better after that last round. His comment about there being "zero" light sources started with you, and evidently pure ignorance is contagious. He also seems to have no clue about the fact that there's a time lag between frames, thus the shadows, and thus the "differences" we can see. So far your side is doing a completely horrible job of even explaining the mechanics of the basics of what's going on. I'm starting to wonder if either of you have actually sat down and created your own running difference image.

Wrong about everything about running difference images that you claim supports your delusion. You know, those things you're wrong about.

You have no ethics. Each and every post is full of personal attacks, devoid of any specifics related to the image details, and devoid of honest debate.

The only "delusion" going on here is your the delusion in your mind that you "explained every pixel of every frame". That's a first class delusion since you've never mentioned a single specific frame of the whole movie, a single specific detail in that frame, or any cause/effect relationships. Your whole show is pure dishonest fallacy oriented debate, all aimed at smearing the individual and hoping nobody notices what a coward you really are. What *SPECIFIC* frame, detail and cause effect relationship did you EVER explain in ANY of our conversations?

edd · Jul 4, 2009

Zeuzzz said:
Yeah if your being pedantic then the universe is nearly entirely empty. That is, if we're considering Bohms basic model of the atom and the amount of space between atoms.

But still, the % of the matter in the universe is ~99.999% matter in the plasma state. Not the volume of space.

a) That's not what sol said.
b) No, most matter in the universe is not in the plasma state as most is not even baryonic.
c) I've already agreed that of the baryonic matter, most is in the plasma state.

Call me pedantic about that if you want though.

GeeMack · Jul 4, 2009

Michael Mozina said:
Demonstrate your claim.

Quantitative, scientific, and fairly simple explanations have been given for why you can't see any light through the photosphere, of any wavelength, through any filter, with any equipment. But even if that weren't the case, the simple lack of any evidence that it's ever been done and the lack of any corroboration of your insane claim puts the burden on you. You prove you can see a surface below the photosphere. Do it quantitatively, and do it using a method that other people can apply objectively and come to the same conclusion you've reached. And remember, even if it were possible, it won't do it by itself. You need to stop bawling and get off your lazy ass and actually do the work or it'll never happen, Michael.

Of course you're still cowering in the corner, not addressing any specific frame, no quadrant, no specific observation in the image. You've already blown it twice: "What flying stuff?" and your comment about the RD technique itself being responsible for persistence were totally and completely and utterly wrong. You missed even the basics when you claimed that there is no light source too, because the light source, namely the corona loops and corona emit the light that lights up the pixels that are then subtracted from one another. You've missed everything. RC is fairing only modestly better after that last round. His comment about there being "zero" light sources started with you, and evidently pure ignorance is contagious. He also seems to have no clue about the fact that there's a time lag between frames, thus the shadows, and thus the "differences" we can see. So far your side is doing a completely horrible job of even explaining the mechanics of the basics of what's going on. I'm starting to wonder if either of you have actually sat down and created your own running difference image.

Michael, you are not seeing a surface in the running difference image. It's not there. No features, no solid structure, nothing. The good folks at LMSAL have already clearly stated their position on that. When it comes to legitimate scientific evidence for your crazy claim, running difference images are useless. They don't provide any evidence that the Sun has a solid iron surface. Not a single intelligent sane person on Earth agrees with you. You're wrong. You're not capable of demonstrating otherwise, and you're too ignorant to listen to the explanations that have proven you're wrong. This one was over a long time ago.

You have no ethics. Each and every post is full of personal attacks, devoid of any specifics related to the image details, and devoid of honest debate.

Well, you haven't stopped lying and you haven't stopped being ignorant, so it seems natural that people will notice you're being an ignorant liar. And regarding the specifics of the image, you didn't understand my explanation some dozen or more times I've spoon fed it to you in the past. I have no reason to believe you'll be any more honest, less ignorant, or less stupid if I go through it all again. I've already been doing your homework for you because you're too lazy to do it yourself. Everyone else understands me. You don't. Too bad. You're not a little girl anymore. Grow up and do your own work. Nobody has any sympathy for your tantrums.

The only "delusion" going on here is your the delusion in your mind that you "explained every pixel of every frame". That's a first class delusion since you've never mentioned a single specific frame of the whole movie, a single specific detail in that frame, or any cause/effect relationships. Your whole show is pure dishonest fallacy oriented debate, all aimed at smearing the individual and hoping nobody notices what a coward you really are. What *SPECIFIC* frame, detail and cause effect relationship did you EVER explain in ANY of our conversations?

The folks at LMSAL, the very people who operate the TRACE program say you're wrong. Back to you, Michael. Got that quantitative, detailed explanation, yet?

And how about this one you continue to ignore... Why do you suppose not one single professional in any field related to solar physics thinks your crackpot delusion has any basis in reality?

Michael Mozina · Jul 4, 2009

edd said:
a) That's not what sol said.
b) No, most matter in the universe is not in the plasma state as most is not even baryonic.

That is rather wild speculation from the point of view of a skeptic. Got even a single gram of non baryonic matter that we can actually inspect in controlled conditions?

c) I've already agreed that of the baryonic matter, most is in the plasma state.

So now all you have to do is demonstrate that non-baryonic matter isn't a figment of your collective imagination.

Michael Mozina · Jul 4, 2009

GeeMack said:
Quantitative, scientific, and fairly simple explanations have been given for why you can't see any light through the photosphere, of any wavelength, through any filter, with any equipment.

No, several wild and highly unsupported statements have been made, and not a shred of empirical support has been provided. Which controlled laboratory experiment demonstrates this statement?

But even if that weren't the case, the simple lack of any evidence that it's ever been done

That RD image and the rigid feature under the photosphere in a Doppler image demonstrates that your statement is entirely false. You also simply ignored the Hinode and the other composite image I posted earlier.

You need to stop bawling and get off your lazy ass and actually do the work or it'll never happen, Michael.

This coming from the guy that says "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?" and who claims there is no light source for an RD image. Please. You have no credibility whatsoever.

Michael, you are not seeing a surface in the running difference image. It's not there. No features,

There is nothing really to discuss with you as long as pure denial is the only thing you're going to embrace. There are MANY features in that image, and you've never picked a single one to actually "explain" in terms of cause/effect relationships, the specific details, etc. You are ignorant of what's going on in the image because you willfully choose ignorance. That's not impressive.

You can't "prove me wrong" by running like a coward from the specifics of the image. Get real.

Michael Mozina · Jul 4, 2009

GeeMack said:
Michael, you are not seeing a surface in the running difference image. It's not there.

Just like the flying plasma isn't there?

GeeMack · Jul 4, 2009

Michael, is Dr. Neal Hurlburt of LMSAL stupider than you? And if he is, who is smarter than you? Whose word would you take if they were to say, "Michael, you're wrong. Running difference images do not show any kind of surface features at all. They can't. That's not what running difference images do?"

And why is it that after several years of your bitching and moaning, not a single solitary physics professional on the face of the Earth agrees with your insane fantasy?

Tim Thompson · Jul 4, 2009

Magnetic Reconnection Redux III

So, once again we cover old ground: Magnetic Reconnection. Been there, done that, but lets do it again. Magnetic reconnection is a fundamental physical process that is extremely well developed and described both in theory & practice. Anyone who actually wants to learn about it need not look too far. I suggest the book Magnetic Reconnection: MHD Theory and Applications by Eric Priest & Terry Forbes, Cambridge University Press, 2000. Any textbook on magnetohydrodynamics and most textbooks on plasma physics will cover the topic, but this one will do. There are also numerous laboratory experiments studying the phenomenology of magnetic reconnection in detail, such as the Magnetic Reconnection Experiment in the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory at Princeton University. One might as well deny the validity of physics altogether as to deny the validity of magnetic reconnection, they are quite the same thing to do.

Michael Mozina said:
... I don't "dismiss" anything. ... I don't see how you (or anyone else) can determine in any of these "experiments" if the magnetic fields are themselves doing anything, ...

But you do dismiss the experiments without any consideration and I simply don't believe you when you say otherwise. Look, you even put the word "experiment" in quotes because you don't even accept that they are experiments at all. You think maybe the folks over at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory don't even know how to do an experiment? The simple truth is constantly obvious. You cannot & will not consider anything that contradicts your preconception, despite the fact that you actually know nothing at all about the topic at hand. You are simply intolerant to anything that contradicts your preconceptions. The second sentence makes that plain. You "don't see how", and yet you don't even know what is being measured.

Michael Mozina said:
... I don't see how you (or anyone else) can determine in any of these "experiments" if the magnetic fields are themselves doing anything, ...

How can you say that seriously when you don't even know what the experiments are or how they are done or what is measured?

Michael Mozina said:
Birn's paper on MR theory (discussed on space.com) convinced me that the math related to the theory was fine, the approach is "ok" from the standpoint of physical descriptions, ...

I don't do space.com, so which of Birn's many papers on magnetic reconnection are you talking about?

Michael Mozina said:
... but there is no way to physically determine if the this is a "unique" form of energy exchange. How is it physically different (at the point of energy release) than say "circuit reconnection" or "particle reconnection", or induction or an ordinary discharge process in plasma? ... How exactly would that be a unique energy release process and not "induction"?

I have no idea what "particle reconnection" is supposed to be, so I will skip it until & unless you want to tell us what it is. "Circuit reconnection", if it's what I think you mean (i.e, merging electric currents), is simply impossible because it violates the law of conservation of energy. If two currents merge and the total energy after the merger is greater than the total energy before the merger, then where did the energy come from? As for induction, that too is out of the question because that is a transfer of energy from the current to an induced magnetic field, whereas magnetic reconnection is a transfer of energy from the magnetic field to the plasma. Neither does magnetic dissipation work, because the time scale is too large. It would take magnetic dissipation about 1,000,000 years to accelerate a plasma over a typical solar distance scale of about 100,000 km, but magnetic reconnection is impulsive and will do the very same job in about 1 minute.

In the laboratory experiments we can see this happen right in front of us. Magnetic field changes first, followed by plasma acceleration. The magnetic field reconfigures spontaneously to a lower energy state, as one would expect of any physical system, and the energy is transferred to the plasma. If it were currents dong the work, the order of events would be reversed. Furthermore, magnetic reconnection will accelerate a plasma, which means it will accelerate both charge signs in the same direction, while any normal electric field or induction process will accelerate opposite charges in opposite directions.

Michael Mozina said:
I'm not blaming Tim for claiming that *ONLY* MR can release energy in plasma, I'm blaming him for choosing something that *DOES NOT* occur in nature under natural circumstances when *NATURAL* explanations can and do release these forms of energy in plasma.

Magnetic reconnection is a natural explanation that occurs in nature. It is observed in Earth's magnetosphere on a regular basis.

Michael Mozina said:
A coronal loop is not a "frozen" magnetic line, but rather it is a moving column of flowing plasma full of kinetic energy, much like any discharge in the Earth's atmosphere. The magnetic fields are not there all by themselves doing all the work by themselves, and they are not driving the parade. The magnetic fields exist *BECAUSE OF* the current flow inside the loop and they are generated by the current flow inside that loop that is heating the plasma inside the loop.

As already pointed out by the redoubtable tusenfem, this is extremely impossible and violates just about every law of electromagnetism you can come up with. The magnetic field of the loop cannot be generated by the current in the loop, and need not be generated by any current at all, for appropriate definitions of "current". It is not at all necessary to have a classical current, as in a stream or flow of particles all of the same sign electric charge, to get a magnetic field. The motions of a charge neutral plasma will efficiently generate magnetic fields. Furthermore, if the plasma is dense enough, the magnetic field once generated will not simply fade away & dissipate, but will remain "frozen" into the plasma.

Let me recap:
1) Magnetic reconnection is a valid and well accepted physical process, well described in theory, and well observed in controlled laboratory experiments. It's validity is beyond question.
2) The magnetic field of a coronal loop cannot possibly be generated by the current(s) flowing in the loop.

Sol88 · Jul 4, 2009

edd said:
Yeah, shame it's wrong.

Seriously, you have it utterly backwards if you say something like

The theories are lead by evidence, not the other way round.

I'm frankly terrified that you think that us agreeing with you will suddenly make energy free. I'm beyond terrified by the fact the first thing you want to do with free energy is give it to the military to go blow stuff up. I thought you were merely harmlessly crazy until this point.

Not me my friend, not me! The holy trinity of evil, Religion, Money and War so F$*"k'm!!!

That's what stops them (TPTB) from sharing information like this, if it gives you a military/economic advantage then

Take Tesla's statement that wireless AC power should be FREE for every human on this planet, to give us all an equal standard of living, advancing knowledge as well as making us more aware of the true state of the universe that we live in. But his main financial backer J.P.Morgan, of JPMorgan chase fame, said how can we charge people for the power they use, Tesla said you can not and the rest is history!

I'm mean tesla banged on about electric flying machines

Another of Tesla's theorized inventions is commonly referred to as Tesla's Flying Machine, which appears to resemble an ion-propelled aircraft.[91] Tesla claimed that one of his life goals was to create a flying machine that would run without the use of an airplane engine, wings, ailerons, propellers, or an onboard fuel source. Initially, Tesla pondered about the idea of a flying craft that would fly using an electric motor powered by grounded base stations. As time progressed, Tesla suggested that perhaps such an aircraft could be run entirely electro-mechanically. The theorized appearance would typically take the form of a cigar or saucer.[92]

and now in the space age we have

Tether current flow

The amount of current (I) flowing through a tether depends on various factors. One of these is the circuit's total resistance (R). The circuit's resistance consist of three components:

1. the effective resistance of the plasma,
2. the resistance of the tether, and
3. a control variable resistor.

In addition, a parasitic load is needed. The load on the current may take the form of a charging device which, in turn, charges reserve power sources such as batteries. The batteries in return will be used to control power and communication circuits, as well as drive the electron emitting devices at the negative end of the tether. As such the tether can be completely self-powered, besides the initial charge in the batteries to provide electrical power for the deployment and startup procedure.

The charging battery load can be viewed as a resistor which absorbs power, but stores this for later use (instead of immediately dissipating heat). It is included as part of the "control resistor". The charging battery load is not treated as a "base resistance" though, as the charging circuit can be turned off at anytime. When off, the operations can be continued without interruption using the power stored in the batteries

Why batteries? why not capacitors?

Tether propulsion
Main article: Tether propulsion

As part of a tether propulsion system, crafts can use long, strong conductors (though not all tethers are conductive) to change the orbits of spacecraft. It has the potential to make space travel significantly cheaper. It is a simplified, very low-budget magnetic sail. It can be used either to accelerate or brake an orbiting spacecraft. When direct current is pumped through the tether, it exerts a force against the magnetic field, and the tether accelerates the spacecraft.

An electrodynamic tether is attached to an object, the tether being oriented at an angle to the local vertical between the object and a planet with a magnetic field. When the tether cuts the planet's magnetic field, it generates a current, and thereby converts some of the orbiting body's kinetic energy to electrical energy. As a result of this process, an electrodynamic force acts on the tether and attached object, slowing their orbital motion. The tether's far end can be left bare, making electrical contact with the ionosphere via the phantom loop. Functionally, electrons flow from the space plasma into the conductive tether, are passed through a resistive load in a control unit and are emitted into the space plasma by an electron emitter as free electrons. In principle, compact high-current tether power generators are possible and, with basic hardware, 10 to 25 kilowatts appears to be attainable.

Charge them in our magnetosphere, push of to say Jupiter magnetosphere use the kinetis energy to recharge the capacitors while slowing the craft down ready to "pushed" of again!

Simple, brilliant and easy, so why not???

Reality Check · Jul 4, 2009

Zeuzzz said:
Yeah if your being pedantic then the universe is nearly entirely empty. That is, if we're considering Bohms basic model of the atom and the amount of space between atoms.

But still, the % of the matter in the universe is ~99.999% matter in the plasma state. Not the volume of space.

The % of visible matter in the universe is ~99.999% matter in the plasma state.
The % of all matter in the universe is ~20% matter in the plasma state.

Reality Check · Jul 4, 2009

Michael Mozina said:
You have an opinion that it definitely is not due to an electrical discharge. Why?

You have an opinion that it definitely is due to an electrical discharge. Why?

Michael Mozina said:
Well, come on. You said you could "explain" these images, but you can't even explain the light source of a single original image in terms of the 'cause' of the heating. Bruce demonstrated that electrical discharge theory could and would explain such events. What's wrong with his solution and Birkeland's solution?

I (and others) have explained the RD animation many times. The fact that your delustional state does not allow you to accpt the explanation is your problem not ours.

A child for example can see that the various directions of the "shadows" (actually records of temperature change) means that the objects "casting" them do not actually exist.

Reality Check · Jul 4, 2009

Almost forgot this :blush:

!

Also Zeuzzz and Sol88:
You also seem to share MM's delusion that there is no empirical evidence for dark matter so maybe you can answer this simple question.

Reality Check said:
Michael Mozina:
First asked on 23rd June. 2009.
No real response yet (4th July 2009 and counting).

How are these items of evidence for dark matter incorrect?

galaxy rotation curves (Newtonian dynamics, indirect measurement)

the motion of galxies in galactic clusters (Newtonian dynamics, indirect measurement)

the actual measurement of the mass density of galactic clusters showing that about 2% is in the galaxies and IGM (Maxwell's equations and General Relativity, indirect measurement)

the two actual measurements of the separation of dark matter from normal matter:

NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (Bullet Cluster)

another observation (MACS J0025.4-1222)
(Maxwell's equations and General Relativity, direct measurements of the separation of dark and normal matter)

A bit of supporting evidence is that the Millennium Run used the Lambda-CDM model to replicate the large-scale structure of the universe. CDM = Cold Dark Matter.

So far we have seen

Michael Mozina's usual inability to understand what empirical means with his "empirical measurments of an *CONTROLLED* experiment" nonsense.

His personal opinion that somehow astronomers have underestimated the visible mass of galaxies. That would have to by a factor of 50 or more.

The last point demands more questions:
First asked 25 June 2009:
No real response yet (4th July 2009 and counting).

Would you like to explain how the astronomers got the mass so wrong, e.g.

What visible matter are they not accounting for?

How is the mass of the visible matter they are accounting for measured incorrectly?

Is the Sun two times heavier than orbital mechanics say that it is? 10 times? 50 times? 100 times? Or greater?

Electric universe theories here.

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