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Tags collapse sequence , wtc collapse , wtc1

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Old 28th July 2009, 03:53 PM   #1
BasqueArch
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WTC 1,2 Collapse Sequence

WTC1,2 COLLAPSE SEQUENCE

ONE -Exterior Columns Collapse. As proven by the following visual evidence, initial failure began with exterior columns progressively bending and then collapsing . No explosives expulsion.

1A. Pictures progressive buckling WTC2 columns
http://911stories.googlepages.com/ST1.jpg/ST1-full.jpg

1B. Video of WTC2 progressively buckling exterior columns then collapse from Trinity Church, no detonation sounds or explosive expulsion of columns.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...trinity+church

1C. Video of closeup collapsing WTC2 corner. No explosive expulsion of columns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR24kKaToio

1D. Closeup WTC1 collapse, no explosives expulsion of columns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDGCFDoMmuA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEAq6Qw-1zE&NR=1
__________________________________________________ ______________________
X1. Disagreement with the following explanations cannot disprove the above established visual evidence of the exterior columns progressive, nonexplosives collapse.

1.Steel and structures depend on the ability to outlast fires, for the fuel to be exhausted , before sufficient heat fatally damages the structure. Usually, as a local fire spreads from one area to another, fuel from the initial fire is consumed and the steel structure cools enough to recoup strength as the fire spreads and weakens other areas. Either the fires go out before the structure fails or the structure fails before the fires go out.

2.In the WTCs large sections of floors of largely unpartitioned, inoperable sprinklered open areas simultaneously provided fuel, fast and thorough dispersion of fire, at once reducing the ability for heat damaged steel to cool and sufficiently compensate for progressive heat weakening of the remaining steel.

3.The columns failed from a combination of overloading from redistributed loads from severed and damaged columns, progressive bending of columns pulled in by sagging floor joists, and the columns’ progressive weakening by heat.

4. For CD to have exploded the floors, pulverized the concrete and hurled the exterior walls up to 600 feet away, the explosives needed to have been hidden in the 3 foot space between the slab and the ceiling at the spandrel plate and destruction of these spandrel plates would be expected. Picture of floor trusses, spandrel plates, and columns as installed.
http://www.debunking911.com/construction.jpg

5. Picture of undamaged spandrel plates. Large sections of connected wall assemblies, no evidence of explosively segmented destruction of columns or spandrel plates.
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/columns.jpg

6. Given enough heat fire alone can collapse steel structures. Video of fire partially collapsing steel structure Delft, Netherlands. No explosives, lots of dust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaK5YVVaRCo

7. Windsor building Madrid fire. All unprotected steel collapsed, all protected steel survived (fuel exhausted, fire ends) , all concrete core and first concrete floor bay survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ywSc...eature=related

TWO - Floor Slabs Pancake. As proven by the following visual evidence, after the initial columns failure , the upper 29 floors crashed onto floor 81 (WTC2), upper 12 floors crashed onto floor 98 (WTC1) starting the progressive floor failures. Each floor supported itself only, each column supported all the other floors above them in addition to the lateral forces.

The columns below were not crushed. Global collapse began when the floors slabs pancaked inside the columns . Evidence of video and photographs show uncrushed column assemblies upright at the base, spread out on the site and the "spire" center core columns that remained upright for 20 seconds after the floors assemblies swept past them, proving the exterior and interior columns were not crushed from the weight or impact from the columns above and the cores were not CD'd.

From this point on the load path changed from slab-to-column to slab-to-slab.

2A. Large sections of still attached exterior walls not crushed, or explosively fragmented in little pieces, laying on ground. Peeled over, toppled in large sections. Floors failed first then column assemblies toppled. Columns not crushed or CD'd.
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/columns.jpg

2B. PBS WTC2 video of surviving core columns (roughly 60 stories at WTC1, 40 stories at WTC2. Floors swept past columns. Core columns not crushed, not exploded.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...21411849861778

2C WTC1 core exposed as floors collapse first, then columns. Core columns should have been CD'd at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8wR9PQSPc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dWBBEtA5bI

2D Pancaking floors overpressure expels dust and debris out of windows slightly behind freefall of outer columns from above. No crushing of columns as floors collapse at 8 floors per second. Overpressure plumes continuously steady, not explosively large and then diminishing. If plumes were explosions, columns would have been ejected at the same time, but they remain in place until exterior columns topple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2yKp39khqI&NR=1

__________________________________________________ ______________________

X2. Disagreement with the following explanations cannot disprove the above established visual evidence of the floors pancaking past the uncrushed, unexploded interior and exterior columns.
From NIST FAQ:
1. The total capacity per floor of the individual connection capacities of the trusses seat connections was 29,000,000 lb. (Section 5.2.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1-6C)

2.Floor area outside the core app. 31,000 sf X service load 80 lb per sf = 2,500,000 lb.total vertical load per floor.

3.Total vertical connection capacity 29,000,000 lb / 2,500,000 lb vertical service load = 12 floors, or additional 11 floors that can be supported per floor.

4. Since the dynamic amplification factor for a suddenly applied load is 2, an intact floor below the level of collapse initiation could not have supported more than six floors.

5.Since the number of floors above the level where the collapse initiated, exceeded 6 for both towers (12 for WTC 1 and 29 for WTC 2), neither tower could have arrested the progression of collapse once collapse initiated.

6.In reality, the highest intact floor was about three (WTC 2) to six (WTC 1) floors below the level of collapse initiation. Thus, more than the 12 to 29 floors reported above actually loaded the intact floor suddenly.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_12_2007.htm

7. The WTCs had 30,800 SF of floor slab without a single interior steel column or beam to arrest collapse. Heat sagged truss joists up to 12 feet from level due to heat-vulnerable high truss surface area to mass ratio, pulling and bending exterior heat damaged columns in at columns connections.

8.Had there been one row of columns and beams halfway to the core (30') and 20' oc parallel to the exterior walls, 50% of the collapsing floor load would have been transmitted vertically through these columns to the foundation and perhaps the collapse might have been arrested a few undamaged floors below the initial collapse.

9. The less mass, the less fire resistance. The Empire State Building weighs 38 #/ Cu Ft, The WTC weighed 8 - 9# /Cu Ft. Cork weighs 10 #/ cu Ft.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3C7...esult&resnum=3

THREE - Interior and Exterior Columns Topple. As proven by the following visual evidence, the floors pancaked at the rate of 8 floors per second, the exterior columns (36 foot long, 10 foot wide ,three column, three story bolted at base plates ) and the core columns became excessively laterally unbraced,too slender and the columns buckled at the bolted or welded connections and toppled. Try balancing one stick at the end of another stick. At 80 floors the columns were 960 feet high, WTC7 was 400 feet away.

The columns were not horizontally ejected by any explosives force, they toppled.

3A. Pictures of large connected sections of exterior columns, not exploded, spandrels undamaged.
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/columns.jpg
http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/8/.../o/fdny911.jpg

3B. WTC columns impaled in Bankers Trust building; no damage to WTC columns or spandrels from explosives. Columns toppled.
http://www.studyof911.com/gallery/al...ingcolumns.jpg
__________________________________________________ ________
X3. Disagreement with the following explanations cannot disprove the above established visual evidence of the toppling of the interior and exterior columns.

1. One wrecking ball hit, not explosives, progressively collapses 10 story building. Rabobank office in Utrecht , Netherlands. Large dust clouds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmiApjHn4e8

2. Progressive collapse can occur without explosives. Balzac-Vitry demolition using only hydraulic jacks jammed between and pushing over loadbearing concrete walls. No explosives detonations, large concrete dust clouds created when moving concrete hits stationary concrete.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syzKBBB_THE

Conclusion: Heat fatally damaged the light vulnerable WTCs structures as the structures failed before the fires ended. The exterior columns collapsed at the failed floors, the slabs pancaked past the exterior and core columns, the outer walls and core columns toppled subsequently.

__________________________________________________ __________________________
You can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason into. - Swift

Last edited by BasqueArch; 28th July 2009 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 28th July 2009, 04:53 PM   #2
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Terrific post! I have linked at SLC.
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Old 28th July 2009, 11:34 PM   #3
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Well done!
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Old 28th July 2009, 11:36 PM   #4
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Yup, good summary.

I also advise people, as I have before, to simply read through NCSTAR1-5A. Lots of pictures and a long, long narrative of what happened as the fires burned on and on. As you read that, ask yourself, "how on earth could explosives/nanotermites/space beams make the structure act like this?" But fire sure can.

No math required, really. We had pretty good camera coverage of the whole thing.
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Old 29th July 2009, 12:39 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
WTC1,2 COLLAPSE SEQUENCE

ONE -Exterior Columns Collapse. As proven by the following visual evidence, initial failure began with exterior columns progressively bending and then collapsing . No explosives expulsion.

1A. Pictures progressive buckling WTC2 columns
http://911stories.googlepages.com/ST1.jpg/ST1-full.jpg

1B. Video of WTC2 progressively buckling exterior columns then collapse from Trinity Church, no detonation sounds or explosive expulsion of columns.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...trinity+church

1C. Video of closeup collapsing WTC2 corner. No explosive expulsion of columns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR24kKaToio

1D. Closeup WTC1 collapse, no explosives expulsion of columns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDGCFDoMmuA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEAq6Qw-1zE&NR=1
__________________________________________________ ______________________
X1. Disagreement with the following explanations cannot disprove the above established visual evidence of the exterior columns progressive, nonexplosives collapse.

1.Steel and structures depend on the ability to outlast fires, for the fuel to be exhausted , before sufficient heat fatally damages the structure. Usually, as a local fire spreads from one area to another, fuel from the initial fire is consumed and the steel structure cools enough to recoup strength as the fire spreads and weakens other areas. Either the fires go out before the structure fails or the structure fails before the fires go out.

2.In the WTCs large sections of floors of largely unpartitioned, inoperable sprinklered open areas simultaneously provided fuel, fast and thorough dispersion of fire, at once reducing the ability for heat damaged steel to cool and sufficiently compensate for progressive heat weakening of the remaining steel.

3.The columns failed from a combination of overloading from redistributed loads from severed and damaged columns, progressive bending of columns pulled in by sagging floor joists, and the columns’ progressive weakening by heat.

4. For CD to have exploded the floors, pulverized the concrete and hurled the exterior walls up to 600 feet away, the explosives needed to have been hidden in the 3 foot space between the slab and the ceiling at the spandrel plate and destruction of these spandrel plates would be expected. Picture of floor trusses, spandrel plates, and columns as installed.
http://www.debunking911.com/construction.jpg

5. Picture of undamaged spandrel plates. Large sections of connected wall assemblies, no evidence of explosively segmented destruction of columns or spandrel plates.
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/columns.jpg

6. Given enough heat fire alone can collapse steel structures. Video of fire partially collapsing steel structure Delft, Netherlands. No explosives, lots of dust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaK5YVVaRCo

7. Windsor building Madrid fire. All unprotected steel collapsed, all protected steel survived (fuel exhausted, fire ends) , all concrete core and first concrete floor bay survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ywSc...eature=related

TWO - Floor Slabs Pancake. As proven by the following visual evidence, after the initial columns failure , the upper 29 floors crashed onto floor 81 (WTC2), upper 12 floors crashed onto floor 98 (WTC1) starting the progressive floor failures. Each floor supported itself only, each column supported all the other floors above them in addition to the lateral forces.

The columns below were not crushed. Global collapse began when the floors slabs pancaked inside the columns . Evidence of video and photographs show uncrushed column assemblies upright at the base, spread out on the site and the "spire" center core columns that remained upright for 20 seconds after the floors assemblies swept past them, proving the exterior and interior columns were not crushed from the weight or impact from the columns above and the cores were not CD'd.

From this point on the load path changed from slab-to-column to slab-to-slab.

2A. Large sections of still attached exterior walls not crushed, or explosively fragmented in little pieces, laying on ground. Peeled over, toppled in large sections. Floors failed first then column assemblies toppled. Columns not crushed or CD'd.
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/columns.jpg

2B. PBS WTC2 video of surviving core columns (roughly 60 stories at WTC1, 40 stories at WTC2. Floors swept past columns. Core columns not crushed, not exploded.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...21411849861778

2C WTC1 core exposed as floors collapse first, then columns. Core columns should have been CD'd at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8wR9PQSPc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dWBBEtA5bI

2D Pancaking floors overpressure expels dust and debris out of windows slightly behind freefall of outer columns from above. No crushing of columns as floors collapse at 8 floors per second. Overpressure plumes continuously steady, not explosively large and then diminishing. If plumes were explosions, columns would have been ejected at the same time, but they remain in place until exterior columns topple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2yKp39khqI&NR=1

__________________________________________________ ______________________

X2. Disagreement with the following explanations cannot disprove the above established visual evidence of the floors pancaking past the uncrushed, unexploded interior and exterior columns.
From NIST FAQ:
1. The total capacity per floor of the individual connection capacities of the trusses seat connections was 29,000,000 lb. (Section 5.2.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1-6C)

2.Floor area outside the core app. 31,000 sf X service load 80 lb per sf = 2,500,000 lb.total vertical load per floor.

3.Total vertical connection capacity 29,000,000 lb / 2,500,000 lb vertical service load = 12 floors, or additional 11 floors that can be supported per floor.

4. Since the dynamic amplification factor for a suddenly applied load is 2, an intact floor below the level of collapse initiation could not have supported more than six floors.

5.Since the number of floors above the level where the collapse initiated, exceeded 6 for both towers (12 for WTC 1 and 29 for WTC 2), neither tower could have arrested the progression of collapse once collapse initiated.

6.In reality, the highest intact floor was about three (WTC 2) to six (WTC 1) floors below the level of collapse initiation. Thus, more than the 12 to 29 floors reported above actually loaded the intact floor suddenly.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_12_2007.htm

7. The WTCs had 30,800 SF of floor slab without a single interior steel column or beam to arrest collapse. Heat sagged truss joists up to 12 feet from level due to heat-vulnerable high truss surface area to mass ratio, pulling and bending exterior heat damaged columns in at columns connections.

8.Had there been one row of columns and beams halfway to the core (30') and 20' oc parallel to the exterior walls, 50% of the collapsing floor load would have been transmitted vertically through these columns to the foundation and perhaps the collapse might have been arrested a few undamaged floors below the initial collapse.

9. The less mass, the less fire resistance. The Empire State Building weighs 38 #/ Cu Ft, The WTC weighed 8 - 9# /Cu Ft. Cork weighs 10 #/ cu Ft.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3C7...esult&resnum=3

THREE - Interior and Exterior Columns Topple. As proven by the following visual evidence, the floors pancaked at the rate of 8 floors per second, the exterior columns (36 foot long, 10 foot wide ,three column, three story bolted at base plates ) and the core columns became excessively laterally unbraced,too slender and the columns buckled at the bolted or welded connections and toppled. Try balancing one stick at the end of another stick. At 80 floors the columns were 960 feet high, WTC7 was 400 feet away.

The columns were not horizontally ejected by any explosives force, they toppled.

3A. Pictures of large connected sections of exterior columns, not exploded, spandrels undamaged.
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/columns.jpg
http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/8/.../o/fdny911.jpg

3B. WTC columns impaled in Bankers Trust building; no damage to WTC columns or spandrels from explosives. Columns toppled.
http://www.studyof911.com/gallery/al...ingcolumns.jpg
__________________________________________________ ________
X3. Disagreement with the following explanations cannot disprove the above established visual evidence of the toppling of the interior and exterior columns.

1. One wrecking ball hit, not explosives, progressively collapses 10 story building. Rabobank office in Utrecht , Netherlands. Large dust clouds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmiApjHn4e8

2. Progressive collapse can occur without explosives. Balzac-Vitry demolition using only hydraulic jacks jammed between and pushing over loadbearing concrete walls. No explosives detonations, large concrete dust clouds created when moving concrete hits stationary concrete.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syzKBBB_THE

Conclusion: Heat fatally damaged the light vulnerable WTCs structures as the structures failed before the fires ended. The exterior columns collapsed at the failed floors, the slabs pancaked past the exterior and core columns, the outer walls and core columns toppled subsequently.

__________________________________________________ __________________________
You can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason into. - Swift
Well, in the real world an upper part C of a structure cannot one-way crush down a bigger part A of same structure, that carried C above before, when some local structural elements between C and A fail due, e.g. fire and C thus displaces downwards due to gravity and failed elements. The only result will be more local failures, generally in C, that quickly absorbs the potential energy released and applied and ... the process is arrested. Evidently the result will not be 'near free fall' of C first impacting A and then 'one-way' crushing down A and other fairy tales.

I look forward to your Hardfire debate with Tony S and David C about this simple matter.
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Old 29th July 2009, 04:20 AM   #6
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Yes, well, we all know about your grasp of structural engineering Heiwa.
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Old 29th July 2009, 07:19 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Yup, good summary.
No math required, really. We had pretty good camera coverage of the whole thing.
Quote of the year!












Quote:
ONE -Exterior Columns Collapse. As proven by the following visual evidence, initial failure began with exterior columns progressively bending and then collapsing . No explosives expulsion.
The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.

Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?

Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol

Oh and still no one has completed Hewia's challenge yet?? Why is that? It happened twice on 9/11 only to never happen or be modeled again. With all the brains on this site, I would have expected to see the challenge completed quite easily if the OS were even close to being reality.
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Old 29th July 2009, 07:32 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.
Wow, Swing... I'm speechless. You're one of the most veteran truthers around, yet you choose to ignore the quite evident bowing seen in order to make you're point, bowing that was painfully obvious and had occured before any of the plumes or collapse?

See, people, this is the state of 9/11 "Truth". One of the oldest conspiracy peddlers here - Swing Dangler - has to resort to selective observation and misrepresentation in order to make his point. What does it tell you when someone who's been around the block as much as him who's gained the experience debating us here that he has still has to resort to methods like this to forward his proposal?

The columns were bowing. They did so before the collapse. That bowing was not due to explosives, and that's made evident by the fact that they were bowing before the plumes Swing mentions were observed.

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?
You can see the bowing that's taking place due to floor truss sagging. And that was the whole point of the link.

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol
It sure is, Swing. It sure is. Tell me, how are explosives supposed to account for the bowing again?

What an ironic statement on Swing's part. The very evidence needed to refute his thesis is the most prominent detail of those first few seconds of footage.
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Old 29th July 2009, 07:50 AM   #9
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Its obvious that so called explosion never happened from the pictures and videos.

The pictures and videos of the WTC collapse prove how both the WTC and truth movement has collapsed without explosives.
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Old 29th July 2009, 08:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.
How about to the casual listener? Hush-a-boom strikes again!

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?
Not necessarily. I would, however, expect to see witnesses to and recordings of the very loud and very distinctive detonations that accompany all controlled demolitions. Let me know when you come up with any.

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol
Sure there is. Just because R.Mackey said "no math required" doesn't mean the math doesn't exist to support a damage and fire inititated collapse, as it most certainly does. It can be found in a 10,000 page technical document called the "NIST Report". You might have heard of it, because you clearly haven't read it.

R.Mackey's off-the-cuff remark was meant in the context of understanding the collapses, not proving how they occurred. Most reasonable people understood this. But hey, way to keep up that proud tradition of cherry-picking for Truth!
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Old 29th July 2009, 08:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
WTC1,2 COLLAPSE SEQUENCE

<snip> (detailed and well thought-out presentation)
Shill!
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Old 29th July 2009, 08:41 AM   #12
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BasqueArch, congratulations. You did great work... there's not much I would change.

Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
Conclusion: Heat fatally damaged the light vulnerable WTCs structures as the structures failed before the fires ended. The exterior columns collapsed at the failed floors, the slabs pancaked past the exterior and core columns, the outer walls and core columns toppled subsequently.
I would go further here by saying that the collapse involved two mechanisms; one that led to the collapse initiation, and the other which progressed the collapse. The first was creep, which AE911truth, et al seems to forget happens to unprotected steel when it's heated under loads. This means the column begins to bend out of the vertical and the load above creates an increasing lever that accelerates the bending even further until the column either completely fails or the connecting elements fail from torsional or tensile stresses introduced by the buckling.

The other mechanism was the pancaking floors which you correctly point out pancaked downwards. As this happened all of the connections were sheared off leaving the exterior panels to either topple freely as a group or individually.
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Old 29th July 2009, 08:46 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Quote of the year!


<snip> (desperate truther reaction)....

Wrong again, Swing Dangler. Here's what explosive demolition looks like:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


You can't find an explosive CD without big explosions either seen and heard. Any claim to the contrary is bull manure. Never happened.

Bada-Bing Bada Hush-a-Boom!

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Old 29th July 2009, 09:32 AM   #14
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Excellent post, BasqueArch.

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.

Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?

Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol

Oh and still no one has completed Hewia's challenge yet?? Why is that? It happened twice on 9/11 only to never happen or be modeled again. With all the brains on this site, I would have expected to see the challenge completed quite easily if the OS were even close to being reality.
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Old 29th July 2009, 10:24 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Wrong again, Swing Dangler. Here's what explosive demolition looks like:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


You can't find an explosive CD without big explosions either seen and heard. Any claim to the contrary is bull manure. Never happened.

Bada-Bing Bada Hush-a-Boom!
*Swing Dangler testifies "explosive nano termites" in 3...2....1......*
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Old 29th July 2009, 10:55 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
*Swing Dangler testifies "explosive nano termites" in 3...2....1......*
Shouldn't that be 'nanothermite-termites?'

This is the most brilliant insight yet, Griz:

billions of nanobots, designed to burrow into steel and concrete (hence 'nanotermites'), each carrying a tiny payload of nanothermite. Upon receiving the detonation signal from the NWO command centre in geosynchronous orbit, they bring the towers down in the exact manner of a fire-induced failure, fooling all the smart engineers at NIST, and just about everybody else on planet earth.

This explains everything! The mysterious 'pulverization' and 'dustification' of concrete, building contents and even steel (yes, the nanotermites would have burrowed into office furniture as well, wallboard, computers, ceiling tiles and plumbing and electrical structure), and the mysterious lack of loud demolition explosives.

No need for hush-a-boom technology, the nanothermite termites take care of all that.

Thanks nanotermites - you did a heckova job!
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Old 29th July 2009, 11:16 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Quote of the year!














The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.

Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?

Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol

Oh and still no one has completed Hewia's challenge yet?? Why is that? It happened twice on 9/11 only to never happen or be modeled again. With all the brains on this site, I would have expected to see the challenge completed quite easily if the OS were even close to being reality.
First approximation:

1. From this video of WTC2 stop it two seconds after failure. Taking foreshortening into account, the plumes are about 50-60 feet from the building.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...trinity+church

2. DavidSChandler calculates that at this floor (81), the explosive velocity of the columns propelled 600 feet horizontally would be about 50 mph. At two seconds after failure, this would put the exploded columns at 73 fps x 2 seconds = 146 feet away from the building, outpacing the plume and visible in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUKLO...e=channel_page

3. But the expelled columns are not visible, therefore both Swing Dangler and David Chandler are wrong.

4. For the first few seconds, all the exploded exterior columns should have outpaced its trailing explosion plumes and have been visible.

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Old 29th July 2009, 11:27 AM   #18
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Does it really matter what Swing claims? The fact of the matter is, BasqueArch's OP lays out a pretty good post with decent detail demonstrating with video and photographic evidence the progression of failures. That really can't be undone by another stupid reference to thermite. Sure, I realize that that's the route truthers tend to take, but given the OP, I think it's best to show that thermite simply can't explain the videos and images BasqueArch linked. It can't explain the exterior column buckling, and it sure as heck doesn't explain the condition of those columns after collapse. Anyway, I think it'd be a nice change to confront thermite arguments over those grounds, for once: How in the world are they supposed to explain the condition of the recovered structural elements, and how are they also supposed to explain the bowing/bending that was noted? We haven't put that question to these guys in a while. Last time exterior bowing was brought up, truthers tried to wave it away with "optical illusion" and "perspective distortion" arguments, but I don't think we really held their feet to the fire on this point, at least as far as I can remember. Maybe we should. How are either explosives or incendiaries supposed to explain the exterior distortion seen on the South Tower. I'd like to see them generate an explanation for that.
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Old 29th July 2009, 01:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post


4. For the first few seconds, all the exploded exterior columns should have outpaced its trailing explosion plumes and have been visible.
You can throw a baseball farther and faster than you can throw a handful of baseball dust.

Last edited by BasqueArch; 29th July 2009 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 29th July 2009, 01:42 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.
No. ONLY to the casual, untrained, clueless-about-the-process-of-demolition observer does it look like there were explosives used in the collapse. Do learn what explosive ejecta look like, as compared to the normall dust created in the collapse of a building.

Go watch the Balzac-Vitry demolition until your brain adds the needed synapses to the process of analysis.

Quote:
Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?
No, we did not expect to see cloumns "blown" outward. We did expect to see them ride the expanding dust clouds outward as they always do in a progressive collapse of this sort. Had we suspected explosives, we would have expected to see brief bursts of dust that dwindeled into nothing as the building fell away.

Do learn what squibs look like in the real world.

Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol

Quote:
Oh and still no one has completed Hewia's challenge yet?? Why is that?
Because the conditions he sets are as whacky as those that the ueber troll Killtown sets on his. He sets impossible conditions, knowing that they are impossible, and has demonstrated a lack of knowledge in the applicable fields to judge whether the desired effect had been achieved or not.

We are in the position of an English-speaker trying to convince a Chinese-speaker that we have correctly translated a Swahili manuscript into Sanskrit.

Quote:
It happened twice on 9/11 only to never happen or be modeled again.
None of have the land or resources to build a scale model that would react the same way, because of the fact that any materials would be exponentially stronger or weaker, and scale models could only be arithmeticly larger or smaller.

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Old 29th July 2009, 02:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
BasqueArch, congratulations. You did great work... there's not much I would change.



I would go further here by saying that the collapse involved two mechanisms; one that led to the collapse initiation, and the other which progressed the collapse. The first was creep, which AE911truth, et al seems to forget happens to unprotected steel when it's heated under loads. This means the column begins to bend out of the vertical and the load above creates an increasing lever that accelerates the bending even further until the column either completely fails or the connecting elements fail from torsional or tensile stresses introduced by the buckling.

The other mechanism was the pancaking floors which you correctly point out pancaked downwards. As this happened all of the connections were sheared off leaving the exterior panels to either topple freely as a group or individually.
Thanks Grizzly
You're right of course about the columns creep as a sign of impending collapse.

It appears that at least in this instance most of the truss seat angles survived. Other plates, angles are missing.
After the initial collapse the loads were chaotic. Perhaps the falling debris concentrated away from the floor edges (center of floor deflected under load first before failure) , with the joist top chord forced upwards at the ends the single 5/8" per truss connecting bolt either sheared or punched through.

http://www.debunking911.com/construction.jpg
http://www.studyof911.com/gallery/al...ingcolumns.jpg

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Old 29th July 2009, 02:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
WTC 1,2 Collapse Sequence
There was a version 1,2 of the WTC?
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Old 29th July 2009, 05:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Well, in the real world an upper part C of a structure cannot one-way crush down a bigger part A of same structure, that carried C above before, when some local structural elements between C and A fail due, e.g. fire and C thus displaces downwards due to gravity and failed elements. The only result will be more local failures, generally in C, that quickly absorbs the potential energy released and applied and ... the process is arrested.
Pay attention. You have been shown the Balzac-Vitry demolition. Your crap don't fly. Can you get that through your skull?

The Balzac-Vitry structure was more traditional, in that there were internal columns at more or less regular intervals to entangle and thus arrest collapse, but they did not.

The towers had no columns in the areas that failed for most of the collapse. Just wide open floors. Those wide open floors used to hold the walls up. When they broke, the walls peeled away.

The towers were not ships. What little you apparently understand even about ships does not apply here.
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Old 30th July 2009, 07:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Excellent post, BasqueArch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing Dangler
The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.

Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?

Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol

Oh and still no one has completed Hewia's challenge yet?? Why is that? It happened twice on 9/11 only to never happen or be modeled again. With all the brains on this site, I would have expected to see the challenge completed quite easily if the OS were even close to being reality.
Swing Dangler spectacularly ignorant failpost #1,045!
That makes swing dangler sad


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Old 30th July 2009, 09:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Quote of the year!














The video you linked to "The South Tower Falls, shot front of Trinity Church" proves this statement incorrect. There are at least 6 individual billowing plumes of expulsions separated from each other by approximate the same distance (no math needed). Even to the casual observer they look like detonation points.

Of course you can't see much of anything due to the vast volume of smoke and the over exposure so who knows if columns were blown outward. Were you expecting to see whole columns of 'shrapnel' of columns?

Nothing to debate here as the evidence is in the coverage. lol

Oh and still no one has completed Hewia's challenge yet?? Why is that? It happened twice on 9/11 only to never happen or be modeled again. With all the brains on this site, I would have expected to see the challenge completed quite easily if the OS were even close to being reality.

Lots of people beat Heiwa's challenge. Heiwa is a fraud. He has been exposed as an agenda-driven incompetent who lacks rudimentary engineering skills. He can't grasp the idea that the collapsing floors hit one floor below them and repeat the process until the building is gone. Can you understand the way the towers actually fell, or do you share Heiwa's belief that the collapses arrest themselves through some form of magic?

"Detonation points"--that's hilarious. You loons never give up, do you? What the hell is a "detonation point"? You're all masochists. You just love that debunker lash across your silly butts.

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Old 31st July 2009, 12:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Pay attention.
The towers had no columns in the areas that failed for most of the collapse. Just wide open floors. Those wide open floors used to hold the walls up. When they broke, the walls peeled away.
So a structure that is arranged with open floors and with walls than can peel away will one-way crush down, when an upper assembly of elements (with open floors and walls that can peel away) is dropped on the lower assembly?

I like your statement that wide open floors used to hold the walls up. Or you mean that the walls used to hold the floors in position?

Could you, please, provide such a structure in any size and demonstrate this amazing process!
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Old 31st July 2009, 04:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
I like your statement that wide open floors used to hold the walls up. Or you mean that the walls used to hold the floors in position?
The Perimeter columns and the core supported the gravity loads, the floors acted as an internal diaphragm to help resist lateral forces. Without the columns the floors wouldn't stand, without the floors the columns would have buckled under their self weight.

If the columns received any significant load off the vertical axis, it's integrity was gone, the connections would have given out well before the column itself was deformed.
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Old 31st July 2009, 05:15 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
The Perimeter columns and the core supported the gravity loads, the floors acted as an internal diaphragm to help resist lateral forces. Without the columns the floors wouldn't stand, without the floors the columns would have buckled under their self weight.

If the columns received any significant load off the vertical axis, it's integrity was gone, the connections would have given out well before the column itself was deformed.
Could you, please, provide such a structure in any size and demonstrate this amazing process!
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Old 31st July 2009, 05:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Could you, please, provide such a structure in any size and demonstrate this amazing process!
Long, slender, and unbraced column assemblies. If you've read any literature in structures this wouldn't be difficult to understand. The longer the effective unbraced length and the smaller the cross sectional area of the column relative to that length, the easier the column buckles.
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Old 31st July 2009, 05:57 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Could you, please, provide such a structure in any size and demonstrate this amazing process!
Join a lot of drinking straws together to about a 10 foot length then see if they can stand up vertically on their own.

Then do the same with 1 straw.

Note the difference
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Old 31st July 2009, 07:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
The Perimeter columns and the core supported the gravity loads, the floors acted as an internal diaphragm to help resist lateral forces. Without the columns the floors wouldn't stand, without the floors the columns would have buckled under their self weight.

If the columns received any significant load off the vertical axis, it's integrity was gone, the connections would have given out well before the column itself was deformed.
This is a very simple concept in engineering. Sadly, "truther" "engineers" do not understand it.

Henry Ford said that the whole is more than the sum of the parts. The reverse is also true. You take a few important pieces out of an engine and a car will no longer run. You take a few important pieces out of a skyscraper and it will no longer stand.
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Old 31st July 2009, 09:07 AM   #32
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It's a point which has been made time and time again here on the forum yet Heiwa and other Truthers apparently fail to grasp just how the overall structural system on WTC worked. Personally - and as I've said before - I don't believe that any competent engineer could make such a basic error.
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Old 31st July 2009, 10:44 AM   #33
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WrestleMania IX/XI
Truthers-JREFers - Epic Battle Pitting Shadow Against Light !

JREF’s Newtons Bit , R.Mackey, Architect and ElMondoHummus set a deliberate and destructive pace pinning the shadowy Swing Dangler early in the match.

That’s when Heiwa leaped off the ring over the top rope, taking aim at Grizzly Bear. But just as Heiwa was about to land atop GB with the full force of his nearly 105 pound frame, GB darted aside and pulled a cameraman into Heiwa’s path. Firecoins, johnnykarate, leftysergeant, Gravy then toppled Heiwa onto Richard Gage’s table. After a near count-out, Heiwa dragged himself back into the ring, and the legendary JREF Superstars administered Heiwa some of the most explosive maneuvers in their arsenal.

FineWine, alienentity, A W Smith, funk de fino then pancaked Heiwa. Heiwa however enjoys quite a reputation for obstinate stamina and ignored the crowd’s chants to “STAY DOWN !!!” as his dismal demolition continued.

An addled Tony Szamboti and a vacuous David Chandler were spotted in the audience.

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Old 31st July 2009, 12:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Long, slender, and unbraced column assemblies. If you've read any literature in structures this wouldn't be difficult to understand. The longer the effective unbraced length and the smaller the cross sectional area of the column relative to that length, the easier the column buckles.
Good! Design such a structure, build it and demonstrate that upper part C with long slender and unbraced column assemblies can one way crush down a similar lower part A when dropped on A. In my view the whole thing cannot be built = it is not a real structure.
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Old 31st July 2009, 11:15 PM   #35
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[quote=BasqueArch;4958221]
WrestleMania IX/XI
Truthers-JREFers - Epic Battle Pitting Shadow Against Light !

JREF’s Newtons Bit , R.Mackey, Architect and ElMondoHummus set a deliberate and destructive pace pinning the shadowy Swing Dangler early in the match.

That’s when Heiwa leaped off the ring over the top rope, taking aim at Grizzly Bear. But just as Heiwa was about to land atop GB with the full force of his nearly 105 pound frame, GB darted aside and pulled a cameraman into Heiwa’s path. Firecoins, johnnykarate, leftysergeant, Gravy then toppled Heiwa onto Richard Gage’s table. After a near count-out, Heiwa dragged himself back into the ring, and the legendary JREF Superstars administered Heiwa some of the most explosive maneuvers in their arsenal.

FineWine, alienentity, A W Smith, funk de fino then pancaked Heiwa. Heiwa however enjoys quite a reputation for obstinate stamina and ignored the crowd’s chants to “STAY DOWN !!!” as his dismal demolition continued.

An addled Tony Szamboti and a vacuous David Chandler were spotted in the audience.

Audible Click, also known as the Greek Chorus of the JREF Skeptics vs. 9/11 Twoofers,
was in the front row cheering loudly for the JREF Skeptics during their epic smackdown of the now bedraggled twoofers.
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Old 1st August 2009, 02:02 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
WrestleMania IX/XI
Truthers-JREFers - Epic Battle Pitting Shadow Against Light !

JREF’s Newtons Bit , R.Mackey, Architect and ElMondoHummus set a deliberate and destructive pace pinning the shadowy Swing Dangler early in the match.

That’s when Heiwa leaped off the ring over the top rope, taking aim at Grizzly Bear. But just as Heiwa was about to land atop GB with the full force of his nearly 105 pound frame, GB darted aside and pulled a cameraman into Heiwa’s path. Firecoins, johnnykarate, leftysergeant, Gravy then toppled Heiwa onto Richard Gage’s table. After a near count-out, Heiwa dragged himself back into the ring, and the legendary JREF Superstars administered Heiwa some of the most explosive maneuvers in their arsenal.

FineWine, alienentity, A W Smith, funk de fino then pancaked Heiwa. Heiwa however enjoys quite a reputation for obstinate stamina and ignored the crowd’s chants to “STAY DOWN !!!” as his dismal demolition continued.

An addled Tony Szamboti and a vacuous David Chandler were spotted in the audience.
Okay, now that there is seriously funny. Well done, indeed, Basque Arch!

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Old 1st August 2009, 04:47 AM   #37
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"the legendary JREF Superstars administered Heiwa some of the most explosive maneuvers in their arsenal."

LOL. When, where, how?
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Old 1st August 2009, 05:09 AM   #38
TruthersLie
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pretty much every time you show your ignorance of building engineering...

and everytime you talk about your parts a,b and c...

and your "challenge" which has been met and defeated by at least 4 people

and your inability to show proof of your $1 Million prize

and ...
and ...
and ... (the list goes on and on and on)
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Old 1st August 2009, 05:42 PM   #39
stateofgrace
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
LOL. When,
Daily.
Quote:
where,
Here.
Quote:
how
Easily.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 12:08 AM   #40
leftysergeant
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Good! Design such a structure, build it and demonstrate that upper part C with long slender and unbraced column assemblies can one way crush down a similar lower part A when dropped on A. In my view the whole thing cannot be built = it is not a real structure.
Why are you ignoring Balzac-Vitry? It blows your whole fantasy out of the water and...oh. I get it.
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