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Old 15th August 2009, 09:44 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Yes, I did. And those figures are from The Great War.
Your posts seem rather malleable.

Perhaps I'm not quoting properly.
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:46 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's only evidence that some 55,000 more US soldiers stopped fighting than did Australian ones. Thus far, you're supporting Damien's claim.
Using that Netherlanderthal logic, the Soviet Union did less in WWII than any other combatant.
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:48 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Using that Netherlanderthal logic, the Soviet Union did less in WWII than any other combatant.

Now you're getting it.
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:48 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Your posts seem rather malleable.

Perhaps I'm not quoting properly.
All you need have done is check the figures to see that they were from WWI not WWII.
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:52 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Now you're getting it.
What am I getting? Do I have to pay for shipping?
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:55 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
All you need have done is check the figures to see that they were from WWI not WWII.
My apologies for accepting your statements at face value.

In the future I will take your advice into consideration and view them with considerably more distrust.
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:58 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
My apologies for accepting your statements at face value.

In the future I will take your advice into consideration and view them with considerably more distrust.
Or you could familiarize yourself with basic historical information before swinging in on a knotted rope to challenge a key stoke mistake.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:12 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Using that Netherlanderthal logic, the Soviet Union did less in WWII than any other combatant.
AFAIK, Neanderthals had more brain capacity than sapiens. But never mind that, why the hell did you use number of casualties in the first place? That seems quite a stupid metric to measure participation. For all we know, those 110,000 US soldiers may have drowned while being shipped across the Atlantic.

Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
All you need have done is check the figures to see that they were from WWI not WWII.
Why should he? They're your numbers.

Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Or you could familiarize yourself with basic historical information before swinging in on a knotted rope to challenge a key stoke mistake.
Or you could have the grace to admit to a typo in the first place before this gets into a sniping contest.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:14 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Bob Guercio View Post
Without getting into a discussion of the merits/demerits of dropping the atom bomb, do you really believe that without the bomb Japan would not have been defeated?

Please tell me you are joking?

Bob
What we do know is that after the second A-Bomb was dropped, Japan surrendered unconditionally six days later. You could offer your hypothesis for when Japan would have surrendered unconditionally without America's use of these weapons, but it isn't going to change the historical truth.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:19 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Or you could familiarize yourself with basic historical information before swinging in on a knotted rope to challenge a key stoke mistake.
So which is it you're telling me to doubt, your research or your editing skills?

You could have said something like, "Whoops. I typed WWII when I meant WWI. My mistake." Of course, that would have meant it was actually your mistake.

We certainly can't have that. Can we?

It makes so much more sense to use it as a springboard to insult someone guilty of reading your mistake.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:22 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
AFAIK, Neanderthals had more brain capacity than sapiens. But never mind that, why the hell did you use number of casualties in the first place? That seems quite a stupid metric to measure participation. For all we know, those 110,000 US soldiers may have drowned while being shipped across the Atlantic.
If you are under the impression that all American military casualties from The Great War drowned on the way across the pond, then we are back to Netherlanderthal logic. If you never heard of Belleau Wood, Château-Thierry, Meuse-Argonne, why would you be posting about the Great War at all?

Quote:
Why should he? They're your numbers.
And they were correct.


Quote:
Or you could have the grace to admit to a typo in the first place before this gets into a sniping contest.
Yes, it was a typo. That seemed obvious, but I will repeat it again. Yes, it was a typo.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:24 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
What am I getting?
A Ukrainian airplane. Handmade by our resident pharaoh.

Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Do I have to pay for shipping?
No, it flies by itself. As far as it gets.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:26 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Or you could familiarize yourself with basic historical information before swinging in on a knotted rope to challenge a key stoke mistake.
Two points:

1) Most of the US deaths were from Spanish flu rather than fighting...

Dragged from wiki:
United States The official figures of military war deaths listed by the US Dept. of Defense for the period ending Dec. 31, 1918 are 116,516; which includes 53,402 battle deaths and 63,114 non combat deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

2) Regarding combat effectiveness:
Australia and Canada had both been fighting for far longer and had developed reputations as elite formations (in the allied offensives of 1918 the Australians alone captured 30,000 Germans, liberated 116 defended towns and villages, engaged and defeated 39 German divisions of which at least 6 had to be completely disbanded as a result of their losses. In that period 5,000 Australians were killed in action or died of their wounds).
In contrast the US Army was regarded as very unskilled by the Germans. This isn't surprising (or anything to be ashamed of) - the US was just where Britain had been on the Somme in 1916; just beginning its learning curve towards combat effectiveness on the Western Front
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:28 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
If you are under the impression that all American military casualties from The Great War drowned on the way across the pond, then we are back to Netherlanderthal logic. If you never heard of Belleau Wood, Château-Thierry, Meuse-Argonne, why would you be posting about the Great War at all?
You might brush up your knowledge of English modal verbs, as well as your comprehension of smilies. And I'm posting here because this is a thread about WW2 - no typing mistake.

Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
And they were correct.
And mislabelled as if they pertained to WW2, not WW1.

Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Yes, it was a typo. That seemed obvious, but I will repeat it again. Yes, it was a typo.
So why didn't you state that at the first possible moment?
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:33 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
<snip>

Or you could have the grace to admit to a typo in the first place before this gets into a sniping contest.
Thanks, ddt. I see you beat me to it.

I wasn't really trying for a sniping contest, but they can be difficult to avoid with some people.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:47 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
<snip>

Yes, it was a typo. That seemed obvious, but I will repeat it again. Yes, it was a typo.

It wasn't obvious. Not to me, at any rate. There was a bit of bouncing from war to war before your post.

I mean this quite sincerely. I have made a conscious effort to never criticize a post either for typos or spelling, not even for grammar, since the early days of USENET. Not unless I was doing it without any intent to ridicule or otherwise do harm. This sort of behavior was bad form long before AOL and the endless September.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:54 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
What am I getting? Do I have to pay for shipping?

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
A Ukrainian airplane. Handmade by our resident pharaoh.

No, it flies by itself. As far as it gets.

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Old 15th August 2009, 11:02 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
1) Most of the US deaths were from Spanish flu rather than fighting...

Dragged from wiki:
United States The official figures of military war deaths listed by the US Dept. of Defense for the period ending Dec. 31, 1918 are 116,516; which includes 53,402 battle deaths and 63,114 non combat deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
I have to apologize to Cicero for my suggestion that US WW1 casualties might be due to drowning on the Atlantic. Over half of them died even before that, on US soil, in their barracks (like Fort Riley, Kansas, where the first case was reported) of the flu.

I also apologize to Cicero for suggesting that casualty figures might not be representative of wartime effort.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Thanks, ddt. I see you beat me to it.

I wasn't really trying for a sniping contest, but they can be difficult to avoid with some people.
You're welcome. I've met Cicero before on this forum, I know what you mean.
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:04 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Two points:

1) Most of the US deaths were from Spanish flu rather than fighting...

Dragged from wiki:
United States The official figures of military war deaths listed by the US Dept. of Defense for the period ending Dec. 31, 1918 are 116,516; which includes 53,402 battle deaths and 63,114 non combat deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
By the same token:

Australia KIA/MIA 54,000
Canada KIA/MIA 53,000

Quote:
2) Regarding combat effectiveness:
Australia and Canada had both been fighting for far longer and had developed reputations as elite formations (in the allied offensives of 1918 the Australians alone captured 30,000 Germans, liberated 116 defended towns and villages, engaged and defeated 39 German divisions of which at least 6 had to be completely disbanded as a result of their losses. In that period 5,000 Australians were killed in action or died of their wounds).
In contrast the US Army was regarded as very unskilled by the Germans. This isn't surprising (or anything to be ashamed of) - the US was just where Britain had been on the Somme in 1916; just beginning its learning curve towards combat effectiveness on the Western Front
Of course York only got to France in May, 1918, wasn't in the front line until June, didn't see any action until September, but by October 8, 1918:

"Corporal York captured 132 Germans (three of whom were officers), took about thirty-five machine guns, and killed no less than twenty-five of the enemy, later found by others on the scene of York's extraordinary exploit."

I wonder if Oberleutnant Paul Jürgen Vollmer figured the U.S. Army was "very unskilled after this meeting?
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:10 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post

<snip>

I wonder if Oberleutnant Paul Jürgen Vollmer figured the U.S. Army was "very unskilled after this meeting?

I wonder if he could be considered as having done the most in WWII, or would that be off-topic?
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:18 AM   #101
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Wink

Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Of course York only got to France in May, 1918, wasn't in the front line until June, didn't see any action until September, but by October 8, 1918:

"Corporal York captured 132 Germans (three of whom were officers), took about thirty-five machine guns, and killed no less than twenty-five of the enemy, later found by others on the scene of York's extraordinary exploit."

I wonder if Oberleutnant Paul Jürgen Vollmer figured the U.S. Army was "very unskilled after this meeting?
Are you suggesting that York was an "average" doughboy?

Next up, how every German airman was Baron von Richtofen!
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:29 AM   #102
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I'm Baron von Richtofen!
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:31 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Are you suggesting that York was an "average" doughboy?

Next up, how every German airman was Baron von Richtofen!

I agree with the point you're making, but the analogy would be more appropriate if you used Werner Voss instead.

Comparing Richthofen to York is pretty much an insult to York.
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:44 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Are you suggesting that York was an "average" doughboy?

Next up, how every German airman was Baron von Richtofen!
I see. When you said the Germans considered the U.S. Army "very unskilled" that excluded the above average doughboys? He was not too shabby for a draftee.

What about the U.S. Marines? Do you imagine the Germans considered them "very unskilled" during Belleau Wood? Whether the Heinies ever referred to the U.S. Marines as Teufelshunde, I'm sure they had a greater appreciation for their fighting abilities than you allow.

Last edited by Cicero; 15th August 2009 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:53 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I'm Baron von Richtofen!
and so's my wife
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:55 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
What we do know is that after the second A-Bomb was dropped, Japan surrendered unconditionally six days later. You could offer your hypothesis for when Japan would have surrendered unconditionally without America's use of these weapons, but it isn't going to change the historical truth.
I don't want to change the historical truth. It's just an historical fact that there were other ways way to win the war. Bomb or no bomb, Japan was a goner!
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:57 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
I see. When you said the Germans considered the U.S. Army "very unskilled" that excluded the above average doughboys? He was not too shabby for a draftee.

What about the U.S. Marines? Do you imagine the Germans considered them "very unskilled" during Belleau Wood? Whether the Heinies ever referred to the U.S. Marines as Teufelshunde, I'm sure they had a greater appreciation for their fighting abilities than you allow.
The US regular army and marines fought hard (though without great knowledge of the techniques developed on the western front). But the vast majority of US forces were not the peace time regulars.

Again, this is nothing to be ashamed of - the Brits had to go through the same experience, expanding a very small high quality volunteer army into a massive force. It just takes time for (a) that force to become effective and (b) the army to get used to the western front. The US just wasn't engaged long enough for those two conditions to be fully realized. (If the war had continued into 1919 then the US Army probably would have become the dominant allied force).
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Old 15th August 2009, 12:21 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Bob Guercio View Post
I don't want to change the historical truth. It's just an historical fact that there were other ways way to win the war. Bomb or no bomb, Japan was a goner!

I think that insistence on "unconditional surrender" was a poison pill used with the express and designed intent to delay Japanese capitulation. As were rumors that the Emperor would be tried for war crimes.

All this as an excuse to show off the A-bomb for the purpose of scaring the pants off the Russians, and keeping them from pulling the same kind of land grabs in China and the north Pacific that they did in eastern Europe. The lives of a couple of cities worth of Jap civilians were a small price to pay in pursuit of that goal, and the American voters weren't going to make much of ruckus about it anyway. Most would welcome the opportunity to "get even" and "show the little bastards." (Quotes paraphrased from my grandfather, who was stationed at Pearl Harbor on 12.7.41, and skippered a light cruiser in the Pacific for the duration of the war.)

I also think that the bomb was way too big of a toy for the kids in charge to resist playing with where everyone else could see.

My own opinion.
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Old 15th August 2009, 01:06 PM   #109
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@Marduk: The only reason I'm making this reply is to commend you on the 'paper/scissors' post. Brilliant! Might I ask if you originated this idea, and may I have your permission to post it-fully accredited of course-elsewhere?

As to one individual that did the most to help win WWII, I'd say Alan Turing without hesitation. For it was based on his maths that the Enigma code for German subs was broken by ULTRA. Without that breakthrough at Bletchley Park the war might have gone very differently.
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Old 15th August 2009, 01:31 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I'm Baron von Richtofen!
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Old 15th August 2009, 01:39 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
As to one individual that did the most to help win WWII, I'd say Alan Turing without hesitation. For it was based on his maths that the Enigma code for German subs was broken by ULTRA. Without that breakthrough at Bletchley Park the war might have gone very differently.
Not to discredit Turing; he was a brilliant mathematician and one of the fathers of CS. However, Newton's maxim about "standing on the shoulders of giants" in a way applies. Turing owed much to Polish cryptographers, who had already studied the German codes and had captured one or more Enigmas in working condition.
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Old 15th August 2009, 01:49 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I think that insistence on "unconditional surrender" was a poison pill used with the express and designed intent to delay Japanese capitulation. As were rumors that the Emperor would be tried for war crimes.

All this as an excuse to show off the A-bomb for the purpose of scaring the pants off the Russians, and keeping them from pulling the same kind of land grabs in China and the north Pacific that they did in eastern Europe. The lives of a couple of cities worth of Jap civilians were a small price to pay in pursuit of that goal, and the American voters weren't going to make much of ruckus about it anyway. Most would welcome the opportunity to "get even" and "show the little bastards." (Quotes paraphrased from my grandfather, who was stationed at Pearl Harbor on 12.7.41, and skippered a light cruiser in the Pacific for the duration of the war.)

I also think that the bomb was way too big of a toy for the kids in charge to resist playing with where everyone else could see.

My own opinion.
1) There is zero evidence that Truman went ahead with FDR's wishes to use the A-Bomb because it would "scare" the Russians. That is one of those Gar Alperovitz post war revisionist red herrings.

2) Cloud cover on August 6 and 9 decided whether the primary, secondary, or third target would be hit. Nagaskai was the 3rd choice target. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were hardly cities of "civilians."

Japanese II General Army HQII GAHQ was based in Hiroshima.

'[Hiroshima's] normal population of 240,000... was doubled by the presence of... military and naval personnel.'


"By the time of the A-bombing, the Hiroshima Bay area, combined with the naval facilities in Kure, had taken on a strong military character."


"In March 1943, the national government adopted the Urban Demolition Plan that targeted 133 locations in Hiroshima for destruction. To protect against fires resulting from air raids, residents living near such key facilities as public offices and agencies, military facilities and military factories were forcibly evicted from their homes. Their homes and other buildings were demolished to create fire lanes. Students, civilians, and residents of nearby towns and villages were mobilized for the demolition work. They were outside, engaged in that work, on the day of the A-bombing; most were killed or injured."

http://www.hiroshima-spirit.jp/en/mu...orgue_e11.html



"The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials."


Not to mention the Japanese Volunteer Fighting Corps (Kokumin Giyū Sentōtai) were an armed civil defense organization.

3) Just for laughs, maybe the number of lives saved on both sides by the A-Bomb drops trumps your granpa's " get even" and "show the little bastards" refrain.

For instance, 100,000 Chinese were dying every month during the war, not to mention the number of Allied prisoners and forced Asian laborers in southeast Asia. How many more would die if the war dragged on longer?

A blockade? What about the famine, plague and civil disorder in Japan that would have resulted? How many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Japanese might have been died?

Last edited by Cicero; 15th August 2009 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 15th August 2009, 02:10 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I think that insistence on "unconditional surrender" was a poison pill used with the express and designed intent to delay Japanese capitulation. As were rumors that the Emperor would be tried for war crimes.
There's a recent thread here, and a very good 5 year or so old thread on IIDB discussing these things. Ever since I read the latter, I'm not in the least inclined to attribute any malice in this regard to the US policy to Japan. The Japanese govt had all been taken over by the war faction by that time. It was also totally oblivious to the real world situation. It was totally obvious that the US war machine was unstoppable. Moscow had announced not to renew the non-aggression pact and had refused to mediate. IIRC, an idea for unconditional surrender which spared the Emperor was floated by a lower Japanese official, but it was never authorized by the government. All that was also known to American intelligence and thus to Truman. There was no chance that the Japanese government would negotiate on realistic terms.

As to the Emperor: God or no God, methinks, he was a war criminal and mass murderer. He should have been tried. Unit 731, the Burma trail, the "comfort girls", all that happened in his name. 100,000 Dutchmen spent the war in his atrocious camps during the war, the news tonight mentioned in the item about the commemoration of VJ. (don't know numbers about other nations)

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
All this as an excuse to show off the A-bomb for the purpose of scaring the pants off the Russians, and keeping them from pulling the same kind of land grabs in China and the north Pacific that they did in eastern Europe. The lives of a couple of cities worth of Jap civilians were a small price to pay in pursuit of that goal, and the American voters weren't going to make much of ruckus about it anyway. Most would welcome the opportunity to "get even" and "show the little bastards."
The timing of the first bomb - 3 days before the SU would enter the war against Japan - indeed seems to have been designed with the added benefit that it would keep Russia out of the war in the East. As to the number of casualties, the plans for Olympic estimated 150,000 US casualties alone; make it a much bigger number of Japanese civilians who'd have tried to resist the US forces with sharpened bamboo sticks in blind devotion to their Emperor/God/war criminal #1. I think I'm only exaggerating in the rhetoric then, not in the assessment as such.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I also think that the bomb was way too big of a toy for the kids in charge to resist playing with where everyone else could see.
Oh sure the kids in charge must have been tempted. But I think that Truman in the end made a rational choice.
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Old 15th August 2009, 02:49 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
I see. When you said the Germans considered the U.S. Army "very unskilled" that excluded the above average doughboys? He was not too shabby for a draftee.

What about the U.S. Marines? Do you imagine the Germans considered them "very unskilled" during Belleau Wood? Whether the Heinies ever referred to the U.S. Marines as Teufelshunde, I'm sure they had a greater appreciation for their fighting abilities than you allow.
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Old 15th August 2009, 03:10 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post

The timing of the first bomb - 3 days before the SU would enter the war against Japan - indeed seems to have been designed with the added benefit that it would keep Russia out of the war in the East.
Indeed not. Truman gave his official Okey Dokey to use weapon on July 25. The actual date to deliver the bomb was left to the discretion of Gen. LeMay and Col. Tibbets.
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Old 15th August 2009, 06:37 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Military Deaths WWI

United States: 116, 708

Australia: 61, 928

Canada: 64,944

Got any more brilliant observations?
Only that what you just posted is meaningless.


Where were the US during Gallipoli? or in Palestine? or at Fromelles? or on the Somme? or at Bullecourt and the Hindenburg Line? or at Messines?

Oh, that's right, you were at home, while we'd been fighting for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...ng_World_War_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_A...Imperial_Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_a...stine_Campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_I)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Messines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...ers-Bretonneux
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Old 15th August 2009, 07:54 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's a recent thread here, and a very good 5 year or so old thread on IIDB discussing these things. Ever since I read the latter, I'm not in the least inclined to attribute any malice in this regard to the US policy to Japan. The Japanese govt had all been taken over by the war faction by that time. It was also totally oblivious to the real world situation. It was totally obvious that the US war machine was unstoppable. Moscow had announced not to renew the non-aggression pact and had refused to mediate. IIRC, an idea for unconditional surrender which spared the Emperor was floated by a lower Japanese official, but it was never authorized by the government. All that was also known to American intelligence and thus to Truman. There was no chance that the Japanese government would negotiate on realistic terms.

As to the Emperor: God or no God, methinks, he was a war criminal and mass murderer. He should have been tried. Unit 731, the Burma trail, the "comfort girls", all that happened in his name. 100,000 Dutchmen spent the war in his atrocious camps during the war, the news tonight mentioned in the item about the commemoration of VJ. (don't know numbers about other nations)


The timing of the first bomb - 3 days before the SU would enter the war against Japan - indeed seems to have been designed with the added benefit that it would keep Russia out of the war in the East. As to the number of casualties, the plans for Olympic estimated 150,000 US casualties alone; make it a much bigger number of Japanese civilians who'd have tried to resist the US forces with sharpened bamboo sticks in blind devotion to their Emperor/God/war criminal #1. I think I'm only exaggerating in the rhetoric then, not in the assessment as such.


Oh sure the kids in charge must have been tempted. But I think that Truman in the end made a rational choice.

Oh, I know.

I just wanted to pull the Cicero's knotted rope a little. I figured if he got so bent out of shape about one of his own typos that this would really push his buttons. Sorry you got caught in the backwash.

(I said I didn't criticize typos, I didn't say I was above an occasional cast into a beckoning pond. )

ETA: It is the case, though, that conventional weapons would have worked just fine for the same purpose. I don't think that the element of showmanship can be completely discounted. It's not like we had a whole bunch of A-bombs lying around going to waste.
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:18 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
the election of Winston Churchill,
His perfect strategy shown here
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...v_sign_416.jpg
Scissors
Hitler showing his losing strategy
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-imag.../hitler460.jpg
Paper



Mussolini beats Churchill...
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Old 15th August 2009, 11:41 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by BTMO View Post

Well, that'd be about the only person the Italian Fascists could whup. They didn't have a whole lot of luck, elsewhwere, IIRC.


@Cicero
50,000+ deceased Aussies vs total Aussie population of how many?
50,000+ deceased Canadians vs total Canadian population of how many?
110,000+ deceased Americans vs total American population of how many?
Further, contribution (the original discussion of this derail, albeit pertaining to WWII or The Great War, Part II as I like to call it) does not equal "sacrifice".

Oh, and back to that OP.

Russia, for a variety of reasons, could be said to have "contributed" more. They certainly contributed more dead than anyone other than China. They also, by Crazy Joe's blunders, contributed to the actual start of the war in the west - when the Georgian Genius signed the Ribbentrop Pact. And arguably, by refusing to prepare for Hitler turning on him, he suckered Hitler (although totally inadvertently) into the quagmire that was the war in Russia and which was to be his (Hitler's) undoing.

Russia also, by kicking Japan's butt on the ground in China, turned Japan's attention to expanding across the Pacific instead of across the Asian continent. Pearl Harbor was arguably a result of Zhukhov (Russia's version of Monty and Patton rolled into one) showing them that their armies weren't really up to the task. Not just because he out-maneuvered them and out-fought them, but because there was no way that Japan could extend its supply lines in a nominally conquered country - China - where there was huge resistance (and tens of millions of potential fighting men not yet subjugated).

Finally, of course, is the turn-around in the war in Russia. I remember hearing (I think it was from a series on PBS, maybe made by the BBC, called "Cities at War") a German gunner's(as in "artillery") comments on the lifting of the siege at Leningrad. He said something to the effect that it was like the earth had opened up and there was this rising voice coming from the Russians - in the middle of the Russian forces, there were regular townsfolk coming into the battle screaming for blood, carrying shovels or forty year old guns but still coming at them.

Not only was the German army decimated by the time the Russians broke out, but the Russians broke their spirits (already waning because of the seeming stalemate in Russia). The invincible German war machine was now just an army with men, weapons and officers - an army that could clearly be beaten by other well-equipped and well-trained armies with more men, weapons and officers. It was only a matter of time, now, and neither Stalin in the East nor the Allies in the West was about to make the mistake of WWI and sue for peace.
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Old 16th August 2009, 01:17 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
As to the Emperor: God or no God, methinks, he was a war criminal and mass murderer. He should have been tried. Unit 731, the Burma trail, the "comfort girls", all that happened in his name. 100,000 Dutchmen spent the war in his atrocious camps during the war,
I agree that he was a war criminal but I have never read anything to support this! Perhaps the authors that I have read believe in whitewashing history!

Even though I believe that he was a war criminal and as distasteful as it is for me to say this; deposing, trying and convicting him would have been a monumentally bad mistake.

The ensuing antagonism by the Japanese would have prevented a successful outcome after surrender. By keeping the emporer, MacArthur was able to convert Japan from a war mongering society to one of the most peaceful economic giants on this planet. Had the emporer been deposed, tried and convicted, one can only guess the mess Japan would have been in today.
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