"Fed Laundering Money through the Big Banks Into the Stock Market"*

The banks haven't continued lending.

http://www.financialstability.gov/latest/tg_08172009.html

"The June survey found that outstanding loan balances fell 1 percent in June and new loan originations in all 22 banks surveyed rose by 13 percent."

Looks like you're mistaken (again), JihadJane.

Since you're fond of making comparisons to the Great Depression, you might want to check out an authoritative work such as Meltzer's history of the Federal Reserve. No economic historian or economist alive agrees with you and your kook sites, JihadJane.
 
A word of caution on bank lending figures. The figures don't show who the banks are lending to and on what terms. If they're basically lending to each other and to the bigger corporations then that is not a lot of help to the economy in general.

Steve
 
Instead of copying and pasting junk from the LvMI, why don't you make an attempt to provide a comparison and contrast? It's a grand thing to wave your arms and issue high-sounding pronouncements. It's yet another thing to explain exactly what you mean by them.

Are you really trying to explain concentrations of wealth through changes in the money supply?

Most of us in the real world would agree that tax incentives for the rich had much more to do with it and much more directly too.

I didn't copy and paste anything, I have a fundamental understanding of this subject. As far as "tax incentives", I don't know how this relates to the subject of how positive inflation involves a transfer of purchasing power even when the price level remains constant.

What does this mean, Tippit?

Are you suggesting that, barring an increase in real economic output, the only way to concentrate wealth is to manipulate the money supply? Tax "incentives" have little or nothing to do with it? Are you certain of this? Or did you simply not intend to say that?

I'm not talking about tax incentives at all, you are. The point I attempted to make, which I thought was crystal clear, is that regardless of what happens to the general price level (inflation, or price inflation, whichever you prefer), monetary inflation, which is defined as any increase in the money supply always involves a transfer of purchasing power, even if general prices and the cost of living never go up as a result.

I will try to give a clear example of why this is so. Lets assume that we have an economy in which real output is growing at 5% per annum, a completely static and sound money supply, and velocity which is more or less constant. In this scenario, we can expect the general price level to fall by roughly 5% each year as more goods and services compete for the same dollars. The benefits of technology and productivity gains in this case will naturally accrue to currency holders in the form of lower prices - in essence, everyone benefits from discounts. This is referred to as the "productivity norm". If you were a central bank and you wanted to target a rate of 0% price inflation, you would have to inflate the money supply by roughly 5% per year in order to accomplish this. Lets assume for the purpose of this example that this is exactly what happens. The currency holder will not notice any change in the general price level, because the productivity gains are offset dollar for dollar by monetary expansion. However, we still have real output growth of 5%, so where did the benefits of new technology and greater productivity go? It went directly to the recipients of the new money, whoever they may be. Currency holders who did not receive any of the new money pay an opportunity cost equal to the growth rate. Another way of saying it is that there is a transfer of relative purchasing power from the currency holders to the beneficiaries of the new money.

This is why monetary inflation is a regressive form of taxation irrespective of what happens to the general price level. Any time you have monetary emission, the recipients of the new money obtain relative purchasing power at the direct expense of those who have had their currency's purchasing power diluted. It's a simple concept.


This is more LvMI junk, Tippit. Since you don't explain who these "people" are, I have to assume you mean those who aren't bankers. If this were true, why aren't there more bankers on the Forbes list? When you go through the list, top to bottom, you have ordinary entrepreneurs like those who built Microsoft, Oracle, Dell, and Wal-Mart, among others.

Depending upon which "people" you are referring to, they could be a special class of those who benefit most from the Fed's monetary excess, or everyone else who doesn't. I'm going to have to admit that the Forbes list of wealthiest people in the world is a joke. The wealthiest people in the world like the Rockefelers and Rothschilds have disowned their great wealth and granted it to myriad foundations and trusts under the control of their agents, so as to confer the many benefits of asset protection. I know that I do it, and it is easy, and I know they do as well. Forbes only ranks those based on assets that they directly own.

By the way, you still have Ben Bernanke's joke he told at Milton Friedman's 90th birthday party in your signature line. I know I have a good chortle each time I read it there, since you still haven't figured out that it was delivered and received in good humour. :D

We've already been through this in another thread. It wasn't a joke. It was a sober admission that the Fed screwed up, and a promise that it would never happen under his watch. The context makes this so crystal clear that I have to assume you're either being dishonest, or you simply haven't read the article. If you have, then you have really poor reading comprehension. The entire article from front to back has Bernanke lauding Friedman and Schwartz for their expert analysis. There are admissions through the entire work where Bernanke agrees with F&S that it was the Fed's contraction of the money supply which caused the Great Depression. But one need only read the final few paragraphs to get all the context that is necessary!

Conclusion
The brilliance of Friedman and Schwartz's work on the Great Depression is not simply the texture of the discussion or the coherence of the point of view. Their work was among the first to use history to address seriously the issues of cause and effect in a complex economic system, the problem of identification. Perhaps no single one of their "natural experiments" alone is convincing; but together, and enhanced by the subsequent research of dozens of scholars, they make a powerful case indeed.

For practical central bankers, among which I now count myself, Friedman and Schwartz's analysis leaves many lessons. What I take from their work is the idea that monetary forces, particularly if unleashed in a destabilizing direction, can be extremely powerful. The best thing that central bankers can do for the world is to avoid such crises by providing the economy with, in Milton Friedman's words, a "stable monetary background"--for example as reflected in low and stable inflation.

Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again.

Best wishes for your next ninety years.

I think any honest person with even mediocre reading comprehension knows exactly what Bernanke said, and knows that this was a tribute to Friedman and not a mockery. The joke is on you.
 
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A word of caution on bank lending figures. The figures don't show who the banks are lending to and on what terms. If they're basically lending to each other and to the bigger corporations then that is not a lot of help to the economy in general.

Actually, it's a vast improvement over the situation a year ago, where the banks weren't even lending to each other. That's a significant part of what caused the huge crash last year; banks no longer trusted each other to be good on the money (because the asset pool against which, for example, Bank of America was borrowing couldn't be valued and they literally might not be good for the money).

From a FT article (note present tense):

During the bubble, the big US investment banks had securitised home mortgages into complex risk tranches and then sold them to other banks and financial institutions, mainly in the US and Europe. The collapse in home prices impaired the values of these mortgage-backed securities in the portfolios of banks everywhere.

Consequently, banks are fearful of trading with each other: the so-called counterparty risk of a trading partner going bust.
 
It went directly to the recipients of the new money, whoever they may be.

No, no, Tippit. Not so fast.

Who are these recipients of new money that you feel are benefitting almost solely from changes in the money supply?

I've heard this one before, and only ever on LvMI and similar kook sites. But who are these people? There must be one or two of them that you can name and post pdf's of their net worth before and since receiving this new money. Names. Dates. Places. That's the stuff of evidence, Tippit.

Otherwise you're making a series of key conclusions based on untenable claims.

I think any honest person with even mediocre reading comprehension knows exactly what Bernanke said, and knows that this was a tribute to Friedman and not a mockery. The joke is on you.

His speech was a tribute to Friedman and he ended it with a lighthearted poke at the Federal Reserve and at himself. It wasn't a signed murder confession, Tippit. It was a joke. :D
 
Originally Posted by Tippit
I think any honest person with even mediocre reading comprehension knows exactly what Bernanke said, and knows that this was a tribute to Friedman and not a mockery. The joke is on you.



.... His speech was a tribute to Friedman and he ended it with a lighthearted poke at the Federal Reserve and at himself. It wasn't a signed murder confession, Tippit. It was a joke. :D

Here is Bernanke discussing the comment
and attitude in question in response to Ron Paul.


  • If you care not to hear Paul's argument, start at about 3:30.
  • If you care about no facts, disregard the link entirely.
Anyone who asserting that Bernanke mocks Milton Friedman misrepresents the facts. Nothing new in that, some agendas seem to require fact adjustment. Some people consider twisting the means a way to an end, without considering the twisting of the end as may be expected by those who think nothing of twisting the means.


 
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No, you don't. Quite seriously, you know less about economics than many of the first year students at my university. However, your belief that you know anything locks you in to knowing nothing.

"Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

I had to print that out after reading it on-line. I knew there were such studies but hadn't seen one described so well.

And you're replying to Tippit, naturally, who had asserted that his understanding of economics was thorough, practically inborn, and absolutely not ripped off some libertarian kook site. But you can see the new money meme right here for one:

http://mises.org/story/2870

Direct quote: "[The] people who get the new money first and are able to buy products with it benefit..."

Compare that to Tippit:

"[The] benefits of new technology and greater productivity...went directly to the recipients of the new money..."

I would say Tippit's only source of information about economics comes from the LvMI and kook sites. Almost word for word. And that's why I agree that he is simply unskilled and unaware of it.
 
Anyone who asserting that Bernanke mocks Milton Friedman misrepresents the facts.

Talk about mediocre reading comprehension.

It was Tippit who asserted that, to be a joke, Bernanke's line would have to be construed as a mockery of Milton Friedman. I, on the other hand, recognise a lighthearted and self-deprecative poke at himself and at the institution which he represented.

Had you been at that birthday party with Tippit, I figure you two would be the only ones sitting there stone-faced when Bernanke delivered that line.
 
No, no, Tippit. Not so fast.

Who are these recipients of new money that you feel are benefitting almost solely from changes in the money supply?

Typically when the government monetizes debt, Congress spends it. So the answer is the US Government, and all of the politicians, contractors and political cronies who are on the government tit. Or wasn't this obvious? You are aware that monetary inflation results in "new money", and that new money is typically spent into the economy, right? Those are the people who benefit.

His speech was a tribute to Friedman and he ended it with a lighthearted poke at the Federal Reserve and at himself. It wasn't a signed murder confession, Tippit. It was a joke. :D

It wasn't a joke, it was an admission of culpability. All you have to do is read the article to figure that out. It's not worth belaboring this point any further.

Did you parse my explanation of how monetary inflation robs people of purchasing power even when the general price level remains unchanged? Questions? Comments?
 
....parse my explanation of how monetary inflation robs people of purchasing power even when the general price level remains unchanged? Questions? Comments?

A correction.

parse my explanation of how monetary inflation robs people of purchasing power even when the general price level remains unchanged for the time being...

By taking the wrong timeframe anything can be "proven".
 
A correction.

parse my explanation of how monetary inflation robs people of purchasing power even when the general price level remains unchanged for the time being...

By taking the wrong timeframe anything can be "proven".

Woo correcting woo.

I like it.
 
.... I would say Tippit's only source of information about economics comes from the LvMI and kook sites. Almost word for word. And that's why I agree that he is simply unskilled and unaware of it.

No, you don't. Quite seriously, you know less about economics than many of the first year students at my university.....

Two good friends of mine

  1. teaches MBA level cost accounting
  2. teaches final semester MBA course
....say you guys are are wrong.
 
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Typically when the government monetizes debt, Congress spends it. So the answer is the US Government, and all of the politicians, contractors and political cronies who are on the government tit. Or wasn't this obvious? You are aware that monetary inflation results in "new money", and that new money is typically spent into the economy, right? Those are the people who benefit.

So there are no actual people benefitting from this new money? You're talking about revenues raised by the US Government, and ours here in Canada, to finance their operations.

All that hokum about the benefits of technology and increased output disappearing was simply an elaborate way of saying you don't like paying taxes. Welcome to the club.

I also have to wonder why your technical term, new money, is now expressed sometimes as "new money", with scare quotes. Is it or isn't it new money?

In the real world, Tippit, the benefits of technology and increased output (and in some cases a better supply chain) are accrued both to those who use them and those who risk their own capital to develop them.

I thought it might have been a broad enough hint to indicate that the leader board on the Fortune 400 is scattered with those who've developed new technology (Ellison, Gates, Allen, Dell) and those who've employed new technology to create efficiencies in the market place (the Waltons).

And that's just the entrepreneurial side. You probably can't move 100 metres in any direction from your residence or your workplace to discover the benefits brought to your friends, relatives, workmates, and even business rivals by those four people and one family. That's how ubiquitous they are.

Should we look farther down the list? Where are we going to find the names of the contractors you claim are benefitting unjustly from this new money?

It wasn't a joke, it was an admission of culpability.

You're right. Bernanke admitted to being a time traveller who teleported into our time from 1928. Who knew? I always suspected those bearded bald guys were actually magicians.
 
Two good friends of mine

  1. teaches MBA level cost accounting
  2. teaches final semester MBA course
....say you guys are are wrong.

Wrong about what? Which sentences did your good friends tell you were incorrect?

By the way, cost accounting has absolutely nothing to do with what JihadJane or Tippit are claiming. They are making wild claims about economics and how the banking system works. Can you cite works from your good friends so we can all look them up? I prefer to know the sources of the claims before responding to them.

I imagine they have to be better than the cookie-cutter kook sites that Tippit uses.
 
Wrong about what? Which sentences did your good friends tell you were incorrect?

By the way, cost accounting has absolutely nothing to do with what JihadJane or Tippit are claiming. They are making wild claims about economics and how the banking system works. Can you cite works from your good friends so we can all look them up? I prefer to know the sources of the claims before responding to them.

I imagine they have to be better than the cookie-cutter kook sites that Tippit uses.
I admit to not having a habit of asking my friends to enumerate particular sentences point by point, but what I had drawn their attention to was "mises" , and the assertion that Tippit knew less than first year economic students.

Yes, there may have been wild assertions in this thread.
 
I admit to not having a habit of asking my friends to enumerate particular sentences point by point, but what I had drawn their attention to was "mises" , and the assertion that Tippit knew less than first year economic students.

Yes, there may have been wild assertions in this thread.

OK, I was the one who provided evidence that Tippit is simply stealing stuff from the LvMI, rewording it, and then claiming that he didn't copy and paste it from those places.

Literally, he doesn't copy and paste, but I provided a typical example from mises.org and a direct quotation from Tippit:

Quote A: "[The] people who get the new money first and are able to buy products with it benefit..."

Quote B: "[The] benefits of new technology and greater productivity...went directly to the recipients of the new money..."


So are your good friends saying that I'm wrong in claiming that Tippit copies his ideas, without attribution, from the LvMI and similar places? Or are they saying that mises.org is wrong?
 
OK, I was the one who provided evidence that Tippit is simply stealing stuff from the LvMI, rewording it, and then claiming that he didn't copy and paste it from those places.....are your good friends saying that I'm wrong in claiming that Tippit copies his ideas, without attribution, from the LvMI and similar places? Or are they saying that mises.org is wrong?
First is the question of whether I accept your reframing of the argument...

  • FROM:quality of the economic website, mises, and the question of comparisions to first year economic students,
  • TO: a dig into the imputed motives and sources of a JREF poster.
That's easy. Although such reframing indicates you conceeded the preceeding points, no to guessing at motives, sources of a debate opponent.

Second, your A or B proposition, (where B = my friends think mises is wrong), does neither follow from the antecedents or from (Not A).

For that matter, I don't even know what it means to say "mises is wrong" in any factual sense. Some primary advocacy of the website is wrong? Some minor detail? Some article therein?
 
First is the question of whether I accept your reframing of the argument...

  • FROM:quality of the economic website, mises, and the question of comparisions to first year economic students,
  • TO: a dig into the imputed motives and sources of a JREF poster.
That's easy. Although such reframing indicates you conceeded the preceeding points, no to guessing at motives, sources of a debate opponent.

Second, your A or B proposition, (where B = my friends think mises is wrong), does neither follow from the antecedents or from (Not A).

For that matter, I don't even know what it means to say "mises is wrong" in any factual sense. Some primary advocacy of the website is wrong? Some minor detail? Some article therein?

Propositions? Antecedents? Conceding points?

None of the above.

You mentioned mises:

"I had drawn their attention to ... "mises""

The pronoun their refers to your cost accounting and MBA friends. So you drew your friends' attention to mises. The only mention of LvMI and the only cite of mises.org was mine. That comparison and cite was only regarding Tippit.

I did not state that Tippit knew less than a typical first year economics student. That was somebody else. I said it appears that Tippit's only source of information is the LvMI and kook sites.

You then said your friends said I was wrong. About what part? You said 'mises'. I asked what about mises?

The issue is this: If Tippit is indeed simply rewording stuff from Lew Rockwell or the LvMI or somewhere else, I'd rather read it in its sourced and unedited form and then respond to it that way. It does us no good to read only the parts that a JREF poster cuts out for our consumption. He can link the source and provide his commentary if he'd like to. I shouldn't have to rummage through kook sites looking for the source of his opinions.

We need the real deal before we can discuss it at any length.
 
Propositions? Antecedents? Conceding points?
....
The issue is this: If Tippit is indeed simply rewording stuff from Lew Rockwell or the LvMI or somewhere else, I'd rather read it in its sourced and unedited form and then respond to it that way. It does us no good to read only the parts that a JREF poster cuts out for our consumption. He can link the source and provide his commentary if he'd like to. I shouldn't have to rummage through kook sites looking for the source of his opinions.

We need the real deal before we can discuss it at any length.

And I rejected your lame effort at reframing the argument.

Go pop your little soap bubbles.
 
Sorry, mhaze, but it's your reframing that is being rejected.
I have only personally refused the invite to participate in the stupid game reframed in the "TO" as below described.

First is the question of whether I accept your reframing of the argument...

  • FROM:quality of the economic website, mises, and the question of comparisions to first year economic students,
  • TO: a dig into the imputed motives and sources of a JREF poster.
That's easy. Although such reframing indicates you conceeded the preceeding points, no to guessing at motives, sources of a debate opponent.
 

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