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View Poll Results: Obama to outlaw "clove" cigarettes. What say you?
Yay! Pres. Obama is making the right move 8 21.62%
Boo! Pres. Obama is making a mistake 22 59.46%
On Planet X smoking cigarettes cures cancer 7 18.92%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 6th September 2009, 11:39 PM   #41
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I see this whole 'marketing directed at children' angle as nothing but lip service. This whole thing strikes me as being all politics and no substance.

It all strikes me as a big sloppy kiss to anti-smoking types, but really it doesn't amount to anything. "Look, we are doing something about smoking!".. yes, of course you are.. yet it's still legal.. you don't do anything about "flavors" such as menthol, which are clearly popular with large numbers of people. This isn't doing jack squat. It's a photo op fake accomplishment moment. Covered in the chocolate sauce of "for the children" to make it all the more enjoyable.

This whole thing stinks. And I really hate to see non-smokers who sit by and enjoy it with a "stick it to them!" attitude. Even if you hate smoking with a complete and utter passion, you should be able to disconnect your emotions when engaging your brain on the subject. You should be able to see this stuff for what it really is.
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Old 6th September 2009, 11:44 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Alcoholic Koolaid, now there's an Idea....

Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! We could make it with grape kool-aid, 'cause the girls all like that color. And use EverClear, 'cause with enough sugar they'll never taste it.

Maybe make whole garbage cans full and treat it like a party punch. Put fruit in it and everything.

We could call it "purple" something, make it sound real cool. Yeah, that's it. "Purple ...

...

...


Naahh, it'd never catch on.
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Old 7th September 2009, 12:59 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
I think that counts as a Godwin.

Seriously--banning flavored cigarettes isn't remotely like rounding up smokers and taking them to the death camps.
Not at all.

However, the "it doesn't affect me so I don't care" attitude is the same in both cases.

This would be an interesting follow-up poll: how many people think cigs should be outlawed altogether?

Currently, 1 in 5 Americans smoke.

To put that in perspective:

1 in 8 Americans are black

1 in 9 Americans are retired

1 in 10 Americans are gay

1 in 50 Americans are Jewish

Smokers, if unified politically, could become a pretty impressive special interest group.

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Old 7th September 2009, 01:13 AM   #44
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I guess Philly Blounts are being targeted here.

Lots of pissed off gangbangers..

Now Kool and Malboro Menthol can regain their marketshare.

Now that's change you can believe in! In a bigger purchase price--thus bigger tax obligation.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:21 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Whiplash View Post
You should be able to see this stuff for what it really is.
Yeah! Tell those dumb sheeple to wake up from their Matrix-laden dreamscape!
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:26 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
Legal, and regulated, right?
Taxed, not necessarily regulated. This legislation seems to be geared to cripple the tobacco industry, not keep them from "victimizing" children. Cloves are very much a flavor that adults, not children, like. If Obama wants everyone to stop smoking, he should be upfront about it. This legislation to make smoking and cigarettes undesirable is rather shady.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:30 AM   #47
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Yes we can.

Just not cloves.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:16 PM   #48
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Clove Cigars Avoid Ban on Flavored Cigarettes

Quote:
The nation's top distributor of clove cigarettes is offering fans a new way to get their fix after the spice-flavored cigarettes are banned at the end of this month—cigars.

The new filtered cigars—close to the size of a cigarette and flavored with clove, vanilla and cherry—allow Kretek International Inc., which imports Djarum-brand tobacco products from Indonesia, to avoid new federal laws banning flavored cigarettes other than menthol.

The ban on flavored cigarettes, which critics say appeal to teenagers, doesn't include cigars.

The difference? Cigarettes are wrapped in thin paper, cigars in tobacco leaves. While the cigars also are made with a different kind of tobacco, the taste is similar. The cigars come 12 to a pack, rather than 20 for cigarettes, but cost nearly half as much.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:22 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Policenaut View Post
Also I heard they are getting around this by making clove cigarellos.
The 4chan grapevine was right.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:26 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
This strikes me as a contradiction; you think drugs should be decriminalized, and yet, do not oppose a ban that makes flavored cigarettes illegal.

If cigarettes aren't a drug, what are they?
I'm for policies that minimize the harm, and don't cause more harm than they cure. IOW, I think the war on drugs is a cure that's often worse than the disease.
I'm for decriminalization but regulation. I'm not really for this either. On balance, I don't think this makes much difference either way, but we'll see. I await the results.

When I wrote that post I didn't know that clove cigars would be supplied as an alternative. In light of that, I can't see much benefit and possibly it could cause more harm than good.
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:31 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by corplinx View Post
The last evidence I saw showed that Cloves were not a big factor in teen smoking. Even the nanny arguments don't work on this.
Just my own experience, but I experimented with cloves and menthols as a teen, but as an adult I came to prefer unflavored cigarettes. (Quit three years ago).
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Old 7th September 2009, 09:58 PM   #52
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I almost forgot about beedis (or bidis). These are likely to go untouched also because there is no will to regulate Indian grocery/convenient stores.
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Old 7th September 2009, 10:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm for policies that minimize the harm, and don't cause more harm than they cure. IOW, I think the war on drugs is a cure that's often worse than the disease.
I understand and agree with you.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
When I wrote that post I didn't know that clove cigars would be supplied as an alternative. In light of that, I can't see much benefit and possibly it could cause more harm than good.
Well, I don't smoke cloves myself, but I think you inhale them same as a normal cigarette. I was under the impression that inhaling cigarellos (miniature, filtered cigars) was worse than regular cigarettes, and contained significantly more tar.

If that is true, this regulation fails to improve health, and may actually hurt clove smokers.

Furthermore, if children are attracted to clove-flavored cigarettes, why would they NOT be attracted to clove-flavored cigarellos? It seems to me that if we really want to protect the children (or, at least, treat each other like children) we must ban both.

And why are store owners selling these flavored tobacco products to children under 18 anyway? If the goal is protecting children, wouldn't the easiest, most morally consistent action be to simply enforce the existing age limits? Kids probably love Amaretto too (its very sweet booze, used in many deserts). So what? They aren't allowed to buy it in the first place- they shouldn't even know what it tastes like before age 21.

Forgive a possible derail:

A buddy of mine is a heavy smoker, who recently switched to cigarellos because they are taxed differently, and far cheaper than even the cheapest cigarettes. He bought a back of 20 cigarellos at WalMart for under $1, while even the cheapest cigs are at least $3 with tax. He has proceeded to replace his cigarette addition with cigarellos; inhaling over 20 of these things every day. He was adamant to tell me he was smoking "lights" (the regulars were too harsh for this lifelong smoker).

In my mind, this is akin to an alcoholic drinking rubbing alcohol out of a medicine cabinet in a moment of desperation. All the blame due to the tobacco companies notwithstanding, it is the state of Florida who has raised taxes and spurred this action. It is very easy to forget that most "smoker taxes" hit the lowest rungs of our society the hardest.

More to the point: do people have a right to smoke? I would argue they do. In the context of collective health care, that argument is insane. In my defense, I have yet to see true collective health care in America, so my focus has remained with the individual.

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Old 7th September 2009, 11:11 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
He bought a back of 20 cigarellos at WalMart for under $1, while even the cheapest cigs are at least $3 with tax.
Is that a standard price for US cigarettes?

In the UK a pack of 20 brand name cigs is about £6, a good chunk of that being tax.

I read somewhere recently, and now can't find the source , that the UK government reaps enough money from tax on cigarettes to pay for the whole of the NHS and then some.

Quote:
More to the point: do people have a right to smoke?
Not just yes - but hell yes!

I am of the opinion that any adult should have the right to intoxicate themselves with anything they dam well want to, there should stiff penalties to deter people from causing harm to other people whilst intoxicated, and that the markets selling the most damaging intoxicants should be highly regulated and appropriately taxed.

Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
* The bill bans the words "light" or "mild" in tobacco advertising, as well as any words that give the impression that one cigarette is less dangerous than another;
* It bans flavored tobacco products, like clove or cappuccino cigarettes (yes, they exist);
* It requires companies to submit a complete list of ingredients in the tobacco, paper, filter and other components, and allows the FDA to require the removal of any additive it says is dangerous;
* It requires this list of ingredients to be placed on all labels, which will itemize chemicals added to tobacco products;
* It restricts tobacco marketing to children, such as tobacco billboards near schools.
I'd welcome all of those measures, just not the flavoured one. Especially since the most widely used flavouring got a special exemption!

I'd add that in my ideal world *all* advertising of intoxicants would be outlawed, for alcohol, tobacco and all of the newly legalised varieties.

In the UK all tobacco advertising is prohibited. There are still lots of smokers. Of which I am still one, but hopefully a soon to be ex-smoker.
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Old 8th September 2009, 12:08 AM   #55
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I don't understand the ban on clove or other 'fun' flavored cigarettes; but the FDA being given jurisdiction over a dangerous and addicting drug--which nicotine demostrably is--has been long overdue. Requiring cigarette manufacturers to list what's on/in their products will probably lead to some changes in what they actually use, since they won't want to disclose it as it currently exists.

The observation that nearly 1 in 5 Americans smoke is true, but like all statistics needs to be clarified. The percentage of smokers is declining (slowly); and is now at its lowest rate since World War I. The group most likely to smoke are those who are poor and have a low level of education. (All these observations taken from the CDC report on smoking in 2007 and/or articles on same.) Native Americans have a substantially higher rate of smoking than the average for the nation--about 1 in 3 are smokers--and the rate varies strongly from state to state. Unsurprisingly, places like West Virginia and Georgia have higher smoking rates than Oregon or Washington.

In other words, there really is some ground being gained by education, restricting access to cigarettes, and limiting where people can smoke. In terms of trying to discourage a behavior that leads to a lot of illness, chronic illness, and deaths, this bill is probably not a bad deal overall.

I do think that smokers have a right to smoke if they wish; but I also favor making it harder for kids to start. I feel the same way about alcoholic beverages. And, in both cases, I think making it difficult and illegal for the users to impact others' health and well-being with their drug of choice is good public health policy.

Questions like, How much restriction of smoking in open public areas is appropriate? are both fascinating and difficult. Should parents be allowed to smoke in their vehicle while their minor children are forced to breathe the smoke? is another tough one.

I think the 'outlaw clove flavoring but menthol is fine' clause is a bit silly, but I think if I were so empowered I'd vote for (and/or sign) this bill because that clause is not outright unjust and the rest of the bill is good.

Just my opinion, MK
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Old 8th September 2009, 01:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt View Post
<snip>

I think the 'outlaw clove flavoring but menthol is fine' clause is a bit silly, but I think if I were so empowered I'd vote for (and/or sign) this bill because that clause is not outright unjust and the rest of the bill is good.

Just my opinion, MK
Recent federal legislation has had consequences that the less than charitable might suggest were not exactly unintended.

The tax on handroll tobacco (specifically. Pipe tobacco was not included) went up nearly 2000%. Not a typo. That's 2 and three zeros. This brought the per pound tax on handroll tobacco up to nearly $30/lb, making the cost of un-assembled cigarette materials nearly as expensive as premium factory made brands. The handroll tobacco market in the U.S., especially the quality blends, has been brought to a near standstill.

By an odd coincidence, the foremost purveyor of budget cigarettes in the U.S. is Philip Morris (Altria). It is no surprise that companies selling premium handroll tobacco are folding, or ceasing to do business in the U.S. It is not surprising that Philip Morris (Altria) is acquiring some of these companies. Nor will it be surprising if the tax on handroll tobacco were to be 're-evaluated' at some later date.

Philip Morris (Altria) sells almost no 'flavored' cigarettes beyond its many menthol offerings which, as has been noted, will not be affected by this most recent round of legislation.

At the beginning of this year Altria acquired the world's largest manufacturer of smokeless tobacco, a product essentially unaffected by recent legislative efforts

The uncharitable could describe recent federal tobacco legislation as the "Philip Morris/Altria Stimulus Bill."
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Old 8th September 2009, 02:51 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Recent federal legislation has had consequences that the less than charitable might suggest were not exactly unintended.

The tax on handroll tobacco (specifically. Pipe tobacco was not included) went up nearly 2000%. Not a typo. That's 2 and three zeros. This brought the per pound tax on handroll tobacco up to nearly $30/lb, making the cost of un-assembled cigarette materials nearly as expensive as premium factory made brands. The handroll tobacco market in the U.S., especially the quality blends, has been brought to a near standstill.

By an odd coincidence, the foremost purveyor of budget cigarettes in the U.S. is Philip Morris (Altria). It is no surprise that companies selling premium handroll tobacco are folding, or ceasing to do business in the U.S. It is not surprising that Philip Morris (Altria) is acquiring some of these companies. Nor will it be surprising if the tax on handroll tobacco were to be 're-evaluated' at some later date.

Philip Morris (Altria) sells almost no 'flavored' cigarettes beyond its many menthol offerings which, as has been noted, will not be affected by this most recent round of legislation.

At the beginning of this year Altria acquired the world's largest manufacturer of smokeless tobacco, a product essentially unaffected by recent legislative efforts

The uncharitable could describe recent federal tobacco legislation as the "Philip Morris/Altria Stimulus Bill."
Bwahaha! Glad I read to the end of the thread, for once. See bolded part(bolding mine).... Now see what I was about to post before I checked to the end....


Originally Posted by Almost Made by Foolmewunz
Crippling the Industry?

If I recall correctly, hearing about this quite a number of months ago, this is referred to amongst the lobbyists as The Philip Morris Bill (not that it just favors Philip Morris, but all Big Tobacco, yet PM got the biggest breaks and supposedly help write the thing). It's written to CRIPPLE THE COMPETITION. They got exemptions for their own menthols (big money makers) and prevented upstarts from coming in with peach flavored, cherry flavored, grape flavored and whatever other flavored ciggies they could try to sneak into the already saturated marketplace.
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Old 8th September 2009, 08:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
And why are store owners selling these flavored tobacco products to children under 18 anyway? If the goal is protecting children, wouldn't the easiest, most morally consistent action be to simply enforce the existing age limits? Kids probably love Amaretto too (its very sweet booze, used in many deserts). So what? They aren't allowed to buy it in the first place- they shouldn't even know what it tastes like before age 21.
The law actually is enforced, but just like with speeding they can't catch everyone. You might get caught if you are unlucky.
This suggests a possible middle ground: Raise the legal age for clove and other flavored cigarettes to 21. That way you don't take it from adults who truly prefer it and you keep them out of the hands of kids. I think I read somewhere that most smokers start as teens and very few people start after 21. I started at 16. Back then you could buy cigarettes in vending machines. In Japan, you still can. Alcohol too. I've even seen vending machines for adult goods here.

Quote:
Forgive a possible derail:

A buddy of mine is a heavy smoker, who recently switched to cigarellos because they are taxed differently, and far cheaper than even the cheapest cigarettes. He bought a back of 20 cigarellos at WalMart for under $1, while even the cheapest cigs are at least $3 with tax. He has proceeded to replace his cigarette addition with cigarellos; inhaling over 20 of these things every day. He was adamant to tell me he was smoking "lights" (the regulars were too harsh for this lifelong smoker).

In my mind, this is akin to an alcoholic drinking rubbing alcohol out of a medicine cabinet in a moment of desperation. All the blame due to the tobacco companies notwithstanding, it is the state of Florida who has raised taxes and spurred this action. It is very easy to forget that most "smoker taxes" hit the lowest rungs of our society the hardest.

More to the point: do people have a right to smoke? I would argue they do. In the context of collective health care, that argument is insane. In my defense, I have yet to see true collective health care in America, so my focus has remained with the individual.
I think they do too. I agree with taxes in principle, because there are costs to society (litter is another one) but not punitively high taxes like in the UK. At some point you are just doing an outright reverse robin hood, like you say.
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:33 AM   #59
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So the negative consequences in this law may not be so 'unintended' afterall. I'm not so sure that counts as a CT, or even a bad thing though. Looks like both sides get something they want: anti-smoking people get cigarettes FDA-regulated, and Big Tobacco get's to step on some little guys and recoup some of their lost profits. Looks like a fairly standard political compromise to me.
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Old 8th September 2009, 05:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I don't think there's even tobacco in clove cigarettes.
Neither did some of the kids I knew who smoked them when we were in high school, which is why they smoked them, because they didn't want to smoke tobacco. In other words, this law (whether you're for it or against it) makes kind of a lot of sense, in a way.
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Old 8th September 2009, 07:41 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
So the negative consequences in this law may not be so 'unintended' afterall. I'm not so sure that counts as a CT, or even a bad thing though. Looks like both sides get something they want: anti-smoking people get cigarettes FDA-regulated, and Big Tobacco get's to step on some little guys and recoup some of their lost profits. Looks like a fairly standard political compromise to me.

Sounds more like a sweetheart deal to me.
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Old 8th September 2009, 07:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
Is there any move to ban the sweet, cheap kinds of alcohol that lure kids into drinking? The first wines I ever drank (mostly Boone's Farm) were little more than alcoholic koolaid.
I still get sick even saying the word, 'Riunite'...urp...

Hmmm, clove cigarettes...real popular in Indonesia...it's all clear now...
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Old 8th September 2009, 07:54 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
So the negative consequences in this law may not be so 'unintended' afterall. I'm not so sure that counts as a CT, or even a bad thing though. Looks like both sides get something they want: anti-smoking people get cigarettes FDA-regulated, and Big Tobacco get's to step on some little guys and recoup some of their lost profits. Looks like a fairly standard political compromise to me.

Sounds more like a sweetheart deal to me.
Isn't that what I said?
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Old 8th September 2009, 08:18 PM   #64
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The War on Stupid isn't going well. This bill/proposed law is data point in support of that sad news. Perhaps smarter heads will prevail, and it will die in the Senate?
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Old 8th September 2009, 08:43 PM   #65
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Quote:
On the upside, Ballou says, the ban doesn't affect cigars, and clove-flavored varieties are being made now. "Essentially, they're the size of 100-type cigarettes, with a filter, but it's cigar tobacco instead of cigarette tobacco," Ballou says. "They're cheaper per cigar than the cigarettes were, because they are taxed at the cheaper cigar rate. So it's actually become cheaper to smoke cloves."

Ballou notes the irony that the federal government hoped its flavored tobacco ban would protect kids, and yet the most popular cigarette flavor in the world -- menthol -- remains on the shelves.

Besides, he says, "Cigar and pipe tobacco has always been flavored and kids certainly aren't swarming to try those." Maybe the release of the new Sherlock Holmes movie will change that?

More than likely, though, kids won't even notice a ban on flavored cigarettes -- they're all too busy smoking pot.
-- http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/08/...cigarettes.php

Heh heh...
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Old 8th September 2009, 08:56 PM   #66
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I don't smoke, so it doesn't really affect me.

As long as they ban smoking indoors or around food, I figure people should be able to smoke whatever expensive and taxed-to-hell product they want.
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:00 PM   #67
Darth Rotor
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Originally Posted by willhaven View Post
I don't smoke, so it doesn't really affect me.

As long as they ban smoking indoors or around food, I figure people should be able to smoke whatever expensive and taxed-to-hell product they want.
I am not gay, so denying gays a driver's license doesn't really affect me.

See what's wrong with where you are going with that?
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:11 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I am not gay, so denying gays a driver's license doesn't really affect me.

See what's wrong with where you are going with that?
In a two sentence post, it wouldn't have been that hard to read the second sentence as well as the first where it is made clear that (s)he disagrees with the ban.
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:31 PM   #69
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As long as they don't ban cigarette-flavored cappuccino, I think I will be fine.
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Old 8th September 2009, 11:47 PM   #70
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Yes, yes...

There could not POSSIBLY be any other reasons for banning cloves/other additives. Reasons such as...
Originally Posted by American Cancer Society
Clove cigarettes, also known as kreteks, deliver more nicotine, carbon monoxide, and tar than regular cigarettes. In addition to having the same health risks as regular cigarettes, clove cigarettes may also increase the risk of suddenly developing life-threatening fluid buildup in the lungs, as well as serious pneumonia.
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/co...p?sitearea=ETO

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_stat...bidis_kreteks/

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 8th September 2009 at 11:57 PM. Reason: Clarity; To avoid (unintentional) singling out of other poster.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:15 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Yes, yes...

There could not POSSIBLY be any other reasons for banning cloves/other additives. Reasons such as...

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/co...p?sitearea=ETO

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_stat...bidis_kreteks/
Ah, so that's why they're banning the larger (and therefore more deadly) cigarillo size clove smokes.

Oh, but wait......
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Old 9th September 2009, 03:44 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Ah, so that's why they're banning the larger (and therefore more deadly) cigarillo size clove smokes.

Oh, but wait......
Wait indeed

Originally Posted by FDA
Are Cigars impacted by the passage of the Act?

Cigars are considered tobacco products under the FSPTCA. However, the Act does not automatically apply to cigars. FDA must issue a regulation deeming cigars to be subject to the law.
http://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/N.../ucm173174.htm

Originally Posted by Miami Herald
The new law gives the FDA the power to ban other products like flavored cigars, but that hasn't happened yet.

Whether the cigars are truly different or just an attempt to circumvent the ban by making superficial changes is in the hands of the FDA, said Matthew Myers, president of the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids.

"The key is the legislation gives the FDA the authority to respond to these types of frankly totally irresponsible actions," Myers said.

Myers joined executives from the American Cancer Society, American Heart Association, American Lung Association and the Amercian Legacy Foundation late last month urging the FDA to take a closer look at the issue.
http://www.miamiherald.com/business/...y/1221580.html

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 9th September 2009 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 9th September 2009, 08:20 AM   #73
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What would be the point of regulating cigars? Its the trailer trash and ghetto people who need the government to tell them what they can or cannot smoke. People wealthy enough to afford cigars know the risks.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:56 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Is that a standard price for US cigarettes?
In the US, the highest taxes on cigs are imposed by the states themselves. In NYC, I've seen packs for $12. In South Carolina, I've seen packs for under $2 (a lot of our tobacco is grown in South Carolina).

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I'd add that in my ideal world *all* advertising of intoxicants would be outlawed, for alcohol, tobacco and all of the newly legalised varieties.
I agree in principal, but what about a magazine like "Cigar Aficionado" or "High Times"? Isn't it only rational that they advertise the product the publication is based around?

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
This suggests a possible middle ground: Raise the legal age for clove and other flavored cigarettes to 21. That way you don't take it from adults who truly prefer it and you keep them out of the hands of kids.
If we ever legalize pot, I wouldn't oppose a 25-year-old age limit. Why? Because the brain is still developing into your 20's. It really is a bad idea for kids to smoke pot, or binge drink, because it really can retard the growth of their brains, and this age is biologically susceptible to addiction. I say this as a person totally in favor of drug legalization.

But the core moral argument, in my opinion: people have the right to end their life any way they choose to. And in that context, even an 18 age limit is condescending.
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