Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
DOC said:
Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
Click to expand...


What the hell do you think we've been trying to tell you all this time?

Why do you exclude yourself from this truism?

And don't quote bloody Ramsay again, we have that one ticked off our cards about 50 times.


Which reminds me. Why does god hate shrimp?
 
Doc has edited a post to give us Winnie the Pooh 42.

xx | xx | 3 |xx | 5 | xx | xx | xx | 9 | 10
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx
xx | 22 | xx | xx | xx | xx | 27 | xx | 29 | 30
xx | 32 | 33 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 40
41 | xx | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50
 
Buddhism must be the right religion, here is a Buddhist burning himself, hurting no one else in the protest of a war.





Paul


:( :( :(
 
DOC said:
The word vision is your word not the Bible's when referring to Paul. And the bible says in Acts 22:9

"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

If it was a vision other people would not be seeing a light that made them afraid. And Pax and Hok don't talk about different verses having different accounts. I've already shown there is no discrepancy in a past post.
Click to expand...


DOC,

Acts was not written by Paul. Paul is a character who shows up in that narrative; so the words ascribed to him are part of the narration, not his words directly. We have Paul's writing and we know what he said -- that Jesus was revealed in him. Paul most certainly does not speak of seeing Jesus on the road to Damascus. In fact, the story he tells contradicts what is related in Acts. But we don't even have to go that far because Acts relates this story three times and all three versions differ one from the other.
 
DOC said:
The word vision is your word not the Bible's when referring to Paul. And the bible says in Acts 22:9

"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

If it was a vision other people would not be seeing a light that made them afraid. And Pax and Hok don't talk about different verses having different accounts. I've already shown there is no discrepancy in a past post.
Click to expand...

I see a 27 in this post, too.
 
DOC said:
The word vision is your word not the Bible's when referring to Paul. And the bible says in Acts 22:9

"And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

If it was a vision other people would not be seeing a light that made them afraid. And Pax and Hok don't talk about different verses having different accounts. I've already shown there is no discrepancy in a past post.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but all we have is a 2nd hand account of what other people saw. hardly convincing.
Would you be convinced by a person who clearly had a seizure who claimed they spoke with Elvis and then explained that the other people with him saw elvis too?
 
DOC said:
Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
Click to expand...
Doc, you should print that out and attach it to your monitor.

Sincerity is no measure of truth, and that applies to the NT writers, to the Apostles, to Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Christians, atheists - to any group or belief that you care to name.

People are willing to kill or be killed for all sorts of beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs true.

I for one am impressed that you seem to have finally grasped this fundamental point.
 
Akhenaten said:
Everything you say is circular in it's reasoning.

Everything.
Click to expand...
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:

1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity within 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.

2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.

3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.

4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.

5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.

6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
 
Last edited:
Agatha said:
Doc, you should print that out and attach it to your monitor.

Sincerity is no measure of truth, and that applies to the NT writers, to the Apostles, to Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Christians, atheists - to any group or belief that you care to name.

People are willing to kill or be killed for all sorts of beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs true.

I for one am impressed that you seem to have finally grasped this fundamental point.
Click to expand...

I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:

1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity withing 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.

2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.

3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.

4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.

5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.

6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...
but they tell s nothing about whether the NT writers told the truth.



We can add 12 one dozen and two little ducks 22 to the tally.
xx | xx | 3 |xx | 5 | xx | xx | xx | 9 | 10
11 | xx | 13 | 14 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx
xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 29 | 30
xx | 32 | 33 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 40
41 | xx | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50
 
Last edited:
Lothian said:
but they tell s nothing about whether the NT writers told the truth.
Click to expand...

I disagree 1) 2) 5) and 6) are all non-circular facts that increase the likelihood the NT writers were telling the truth.

ETA

And actually 3) does also because it would be logical to believe that the Son of God's teachings would be the most moral and sublime in history.

ETA

And after thinking about it 4) does also because it would be likely that if Christianity was true it would certainly have the power to drastically change thousands of lives for the better.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
Click to expand...
Which is why in the third post of this train wreck, Hokulele said:
Hokulele said:
These are all reasons to believe the NT authors wrote what they believed was true, but it is not evidence that it was true.
Click to expand...


To believe that sincerity is evidence for something but not something else is to engage in special pleading.
 
DOC said:
I disagree 1) 2) 5) and 6) are all non-circular facts that increase the likelihood the NT writers were telling the truth.
Click to expand...

So you finally accept that Thomas Jefferson's opinion on Jesus's moral teaching has no bearing on whether the NT is true. Will you stop bringing this up now?

ETA: Ah, I see the moment of clarity has passed.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
If you wrote 13 chapters (Paul wrote 13 biblical books) in the greatest selling book of all time and were called a spiritual genius in a religious encyclopedia like Paul was, I might take a closer look at your claim.
Click to expand...

I don't think George Lucas could care one hootenanny.
 
This'll be good.


DOC said:
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:


1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity withing 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.
Click to expand...


How did we establish Jeebus' date of birth DOC?

In what way were Jeebus' biographers similar to Tiberius Cæsar's?

Do you like the diphthong? Kewl, eh?


DOC said:
2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.
Click to expand...


How many of those 5 000 manuscripts actually cross-reference each other and how many were sourced independently?

Show working.


DOC said:
3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.
Click to expand...


Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

3rd American president, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat. Deist, avid separationist.

Some Quotes


Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

- 1787 letter to his nephew


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

- Unknown


"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

- Unknown


"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter."

- letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820


"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

- Notes on Virginia


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

- Letter to von Humboldt, 1813


"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

- Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"

- Letter to H. Spafford, 1814


"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."

- in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810


"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

- From Jefferson's biography


"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God."

"It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist."

- various
​


DOC said:
4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.
Click to expand...


Irrelevant non sequitur.

Also, Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.


DOC said:
5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.
Click to expand...


Piffle

You've been given the examples of Hypatia of Alexandria (and all the books) and Ishmael the Armourer, from Antioch. There are thousands of others. Don't make me name names. 'cos I will.


DOC said:
6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...


No. Just no.


You're quite right. Not all circular, but I did manage to trick you into spewing even more drivel with which to destroy your own arguments.

You should be more careful.


Now, what about the shrimp?
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
Click to expand...
Oh. I thought you had grasped the point but apparently not. The "Apostles' martyrdoms" in no way increases the likelihood of the truth of the resurrection.

The strength of a belief is not evidence to the truth of that belief.
 
DOC said:
Of course this is false, here are some that are not circular reasoning:

1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity within 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.
Click to expand...
And we've discussed this one. At least one was a forgery, but no matter. THere could be three million and all that demonstrate is that a group calling themselves "Christian" existed at the time. This group made certain claims, but none of the non-Christian sources can give any evidence to support the validity of Christianity itself.

DOC said:
2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.
Click to expand...
And "Dianetics" has millions of manuscripts out there. I guess that makes Scientology more valid than Christianity?


DOC said:
3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.
Click to expand...
So? Another point that has been raised, discussed and thouroughly trashed. Paul Jennings Hill by all accounts was a good Christian, even when he killed a man in cold blood.

DOC said:
4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.
Click to expand...
We've been over this one as well. Trashed it completely too.

DOC said:
5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.
Click to expand...
No evidence. None. There's a dark silent part of Christianity's early years (the 400 years between Paul and Constantine). Granted, part of this was because there were periodic progroms against Christians, but they were neither universal nor constant. The fact that most of Christianity's earliest believers were the uneducated (slaves, servants etc) might be the cause of this silence.

Now, I'm in a generous mood this morning. The sun is shining, the birds are shivering, I got a fresh cuppa coffee. So, I'll give you the premise that Christianity spread peacefully, for the moment. So what? They were a minority religion at the time. After Constantine converted the Empire, they were so NOT peaceful. It was commonplace for Christians to destroy anything that did not agree with their particular brand of bullsh...um...dogma. So, 400 years of peaceful conversion vs. 1600 years of violence against the unbelievers. Not a rousing advert for your side there DOC.

DOC said:
6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...
This has been so sound destroyed, that I'm not even going to make a snarky comment about it.


D'oh!
 
Lothian said:
Doc has edited a post to give us Winnie the Pooh 42.

xx | xx | 3 |xx | 5 | xx | xx | xx | 9 | 10
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx
xx | 22 | xx | xx | xx | xx | 27 | xx | 29 | 30
xx | 32 | 33 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 40
41 | xx | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50
Click to expand...


Bingo!

Row 4: 7, 17, 26, 37, 42.
 
.



BuddyChrist.jpg

w00t!​
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
1)There are 9 non-Christians sources for Christ and or Christianity within 150 years of his birth similar to the 9 non-Christian sources for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman Emperor at the time of Christ.
Click to expand...
There is more evidence for Joseph Smith and mormonism. And if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept it for Mormonism. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
2) There are around 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament compared to 7 for Plato and 20 for famous Roman historian Tacitus.
Click to expand...
There are many many copies of scientology and it has been translated into multiple multiple languages. And they do not contradict each other. if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept it for Scientology. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
3) Thomas Jefferson (although not a mainline Christian) said the teachings of Jesus are the most moral and sublime he has ever read.
Click to expand...
He also rewrote the bible to remove any of the magical elements from it. He even went so far to liken the bible as a dung heap. if you use Jefferson's quote about Jesus, you must also use his quote on the bible. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
4)Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Christianity.
Click to expand...
Thousands of lives have been drastically changed for the better by Islam, Bhuddism,... if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept it for all other religions. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.

DOC said:
5)Christianity grew rapidly by peaceful means in the brutal Roman Empire.
Click to expand...
This is true, but so did a lot of other apocalyptic cults. What made christianity different was that it was adopted by St. Constantine, who DID spread it by the sword. Which is just like many religions. SO you are right, this isn't circular reasoning. It is just false logic.

DOC said:
6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaeological evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...
And he was also found to make up stories, like the census claims. if you accept this as "evidence" for christian truth than you must accept the fact that he was also known to make stuff up. If not, it becomes a case of special pleading which IS a form of circular reasoning.


Well, DOC you are right. All your arguments AREN'T circular reasoning. Just a large percentage of them. One of them is just simply false.
 
DOC said:
I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
Click to expand...
Your statements contradict each other.

NO ONE here is using prove in the mathematical sense. We are using it to mean " evidence". And we mean that martyrdom doesn't represent evidence for truth. It is (as we have said over and over) evidence of belief. not truth.


So, now that you know this, any future use of claims to the contrary will constitute a lie.
 
Akhenaten said:
Which reminds me. Where is six7s?
Click to expand...
Avoiding this thread for sake of his blood pressure?
Engaging in that off-line thing called "a life"?
Paragliding in the Andes?

ETA: His profile says that the last time he was on was the 9th. I'm now adding "Hiking the Appalachian Trail ;)" as an option.
 
Last edited:
They both can't be right -- The law of Non Contradiction.

ETA: And yes I know one doesn't have to be right, I was just making a point.
Click to expand...

6)Gospel writer Luke showed remarkable attention to detail verified through historical and archaelogical evidence and was called one of the world's greatest historians with regard to things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.
Click to expand...

Their sincerity is real just like the people who believed in Hitler were sincere. That has no relation to it being the ultimate truth.
Click to expand...

Could it be? Is he actually capable of...learning?


I've always known it, even when I talk about the 11 apostles who were martryed. Their deaths do not prove Christianity but their martyrdoms increase the likelihood there was a resurrection over a situation where there was no martyrdoms. Therefore it can be considered some evidence.
Click to expand...

Oops, no. Nope. Non. Nein. Uh-uh. :nope:
 
Personally, I think the devil made him do it. That one line was just so out of place with the rest of the thread.

I had to read it a few times to confirm that he'd actually said something that was true.

Just a weird anomaly, I guess.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom