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Old 24th February 2010, 10:03 AM   #1
Saggy
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There is no evidence for WW II according to holohoax scholar !

Robert Jan Van Pelt is a leading holocaust scholar and a professor at the University of Waterloo, so we can take his writing as authoritative, and we have, from a recent article which can be seen here ....

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/...back-auschwitz

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge.

I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony."

Van Pelt is one of the world's most respected holocaust authorities, so I trust him when he says that we do not have physical evidence to prove 99% of what we know about the holocaust. But, I think he may have overlooked some of the physical evidence for WW II .....

http://maxgrace.files.wordpress.com/...leship_003.jpg

Mod WarningEdited, breach of Rule 4 - do not hotlink copyrighted material.
Posted By:Locknar

Last edited by Locknar; 25th February 2010 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 24th February 2010, 10:08 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Robert Jan Van Pelt is a leading holocaust scholar and a professor at the University of Waterloo, so we can take his writing as authoritative, and we have, from a recent article which can be seen here ....

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/...back-auschwitz

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge.
And what's the difference between "evidence" and "physical evidence"?

More epic fail by a Nazi apologist.

Further from the same interview:

Quote:
We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . . . We are very successful in remembering the past in that manner. That's how we know that Cesar was killed on the Ides of March. To put the holocaust in some separate category and to demand that it be there – to demand that we have more material evidence – is actually us somehow giving in to the Holocaust deniers by providing some sort of special evidence.

Last edited by drkitten; 24th February 2010 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 24th February 2010, 10:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Robert Jan Van Pelt is a leading holocaust scholar and a professor at the University of Waterloo, so we can take his writing as authoritative, and we have, from a recent article which can be seen here ....

[url="http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/742965--a-case-for-letting-nature-take-back-auschwitz"] But, I think he may have overlooked some of the physical evidence for WW II .....

Right; that the one percent we know.
For, the rest, where and when it was deployed, what was its mission and which battles the ship engaged in, we have to rely on documentary and testimonial evidence.

The same way, we know that the concentration camps existed and contained gas chambers from hard evidences. Now, the knowledge about how these gas chambers were used, how many victims they claimed... That has to be gained from similar documentary and testimonial evidence.

And yet, this type of evidences that is perfectly fine concerning the life of a warship suddenly becomes suspicious to deniers as soon as it refers to the Holocaust...
I guess that's what Van Pelt was referring to...
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Old 24th February 2010, 10:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Robert Jan Van Pelt is a leading holocaust scholar and a professor at the University of Waterloo, so we can take his writing as authoritative, and we have, from a recent article which can be seen here ....

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/...back-auschwitz

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge.

I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony."

Van Pelt is one of the world's most respected holocaust authorities, so I trust him when he says that we do not have physical evidence to prove 99% of what we know about the holocaust. But, I think he may have overlooked some of the physical evidence for WW II .....

http://maxgrace.files.wordpress.com/...leship_003.jpg
If the physical existence of a battleship proves that WWII happened, then the physical existence of Auschwitz proves that the holocaust happened.

Somehow I don't think you understood this guy's argument.
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Old 24th February 2010, 10:55 AM   #5
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Is this a parody thread on the Holocaust denial threads? By no less than a Holocaust denier himself - saves us the trouble from making one.
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Old 24th February 2010, 10:56 AM   #6
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A Holocaust Denier misinterperts and distorts what a respected Historian is saying.
Ain't the first time that has happened......
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Old 24th February 2010, 11:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
And what's the difference between "evidence" and "physical evidence"?

More epic fail by a Nazi apologist.

Further from the same interview:
now yes that is another epic fail.

why is it holocaust deniers/9/11 truthers/and CTists in general have such piss poor reading comprehension and abysmal research skills?
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Old 24th February 2010, 11:20 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by TruthersLie View Post
now yes that is another epic fail.

why is it holocaust deniers/9/11 truthers/and CTists in general have such piss poor reading comprehension and abysmal research skills?
That's a question that pretty much answers itself, isn't it? You have to have piss poor reading comprehension and abysmal research skills in order to be sucked in by the CT nonsense.
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Old 24th February 2010, 11:31 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Yoink View Post
That's a question that pretty much answers itself, isn't it? You have to have piss poor reading comprehension and abysmal research skills in order to be sucked in by the CT nonsense.
I agree, but in the case of Holocaust Deniers you have a hatred of the Jews which blinds them to all else and makes them willing to believe anything negative about the Jews.
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Old 24th February 2010, 12:08 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
But, I think he may have overlooked some of the physical evidence for WW II .....

http://maxgrace.files.wordpress.com/...leship_003.jpg

Edited by Locknar:  Moderated content (hotlink) removed.


Please. Show me any evidence that that little cruise ship was used in the "World War"!


And don't go trying to point out the "guns", which are obviously just large mechanical turn signals.
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Last edited by Locknar; 25th February 2010 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 24th February 2010, 12:44 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Please. Show me any evidence that that little cruise ship was used in the "World War"!
Please. As if something made of steel weighing 30,000-40,000 tons would float on water.

Pfffft. Cleverly doctored photos of some supposed "boat" on some supposed "water." You sheeple will fall for anything.
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Old 24th February 2010, 12:54 PM   #12
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I say this a lot, but it really is true:

Just when you thought conspiracy wingnuts could not suggest a theory that is more stupid than the stuff they already push, they surprise you. If you read the article, and then read what the OP said, there is no relationship between the two.

Whats next, OP? Denying the Gulf War? Denying the existence of the ozone layer?

Last edited by LightinDarkness; 24th February 2010 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 24th February 2010, 06:41 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
I say this a lot, but it really is true:

Just when you thought conspiracy wingnuts could not suggest a theory that is more stupid than the stuff they already push, they surprise you. If you read the article, and then read what the OP said, there is no relationship between the two.
Thinking that I had somehow missed hearing about a Holocaust Denier living within driving driving distance and at a respected Canadian university. I Googled.

He is not a Denier at all. Whatever point he was making was garbled, twisted and mis-represented in the OP.

Quote:
Whats next, OP? Denying the Gulf War? Denying the existence of the ozone layer?
Well, were you there? Can you see the ozone layer?
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Old 25th February 2010, 12:13 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
I say this a lot, but it really is true:

Just when you thought conspiracy wingnuts could not suggest a theory that is more stupid than the stuff they already push, they surprise you. If you read the article, and then read what the OP said, there is no relationship between the two.

Whats next, OP? Denying the Gulf War? Denying the existence of the ozone layer?
Photographic evidence for the nonexistence of Winnipeg
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Old 25th February 2010, 12:18 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
He is not a Denier at all. Whatever point he was making was garbled, twisted and mis-represented in the OP.
He made the point that our knowledge of the holocaust will be mostly of the same sense of our knowledge of WWII, WWI, and Napoleon ("most historical facts").

This is, naturally, not a denial of the holocaust, but the exact opposite.

I fail to see why someone can deny the holocaust and accept the fact that, say, Napoleon or the Roman empire ever existed, or that WWII or WWI ever occurred.

Do you have any physical evidence for the existence of, say, FDR or the treaty of Versailles or Cicero? No?

See?
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Old 25th February 2010, 04:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
But can you prove that Delaware exists? Or Bielefeld?
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Old 25th February 2010, 05:17 AM   #17
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What does Van Pelt mean by no physical evidence of the holohoax?

1. No bodies - the US sent forensic pathologists into the camps immediately after the war. Not a single body showing signs of gas poisoning was found. None have been found since. There is not a single mass grave of holohoax victims that has been excavated.

2. No murder weapon - a morgue room at Auschwitz and a fumigation room at Majdanek have been identified as 'homicidal gas chambers', but these allegations are obviously absurd as both rooms have large unbarred plate glass windows.

3. No documents - There is not a single document that supports the holohoax in the camps, despite millions of captured documents. There are documents supporting the 'eastern' phase of the hoax, for example Nazi documents stating that 30,000 were killed at Babi Yar. Unfortunately for the hoaxers, no bodies have been found at Babi Yar.

It's really an extraordinary admission. No physical evidence for the holohoax. There is an explanation - the reason there is no evidence for the planning or implementation of a plan to exterminate European Jews is because it was all war propaganda, without any basis in fact, or physical evidence, whatever.
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Old 25th February 2010, 07:47 AM   #18
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I wanted to add ....

4. No photographs, unless you count photos like the following which is widely published in the hoax literature and on the net with the caption "The Unaware Walk to the Gas Chamber"

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ocaust/gc5.jpg

Edited by LashL:  Removed breach of Rule 5. Do not hotlink images.

Last edited by LashL; 27th March 2010 at 04:03 PM. Reason: Removed hotlinked image.
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Old 25th February 2010, 08:56 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
What does Van Pelt mean by no physical evidence of the holohoax?
Van Pelt said no such thing in the article. He was arguing that Auschwitz doesn't neccesarily have to be preserved just because it's physical evidence of the Holocaust, because the Holocaust is just as certain as any other historical fact we know of. The three points you listed as the answer to this question have nothing to do with anything Van Pelt has written.
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Old 25th February 2010, 09:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Is this all faked Saggy? http://www.its-arolsen.org/index.php?id=2&L=1
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Old 25th February 2010, 09:16 AM   #21
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Saggy, why do you feel the need to disprove the Holocaust?
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Old 25th February 2010, 09:17 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
Saggy, why do you feel the need to disprove the Holocaust?
'cos it makes him feel like a big man?
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Old 25th February 2010, 09:27 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
That's physical evidence, for sure. And, it proves that there is no holohoax. 60,000,000 documents .... hidden for 50 years by whom? The hoaxers. Why - this is the best part - to protect the privacy of the 'victims'. Of course the victims were in court trying to claim their reparations, but the Bad Arolsen data was still kept secret ! It's like a really bad joke. The data is still secret except to those approved by the hoax establishment.

ALL THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE PROVES THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST.

That's why the records are hidden.

By the way, the Russians released the Auschwitz records in the late 80's. The NAZI RECORDS are available. No holocaust at Auschwitz! Google Auschwitz Death Books for more info, they're even available from the Auschwitz museum, you can buy them.

Last edited by Saggy; 25th February 2010 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 25th February 2010, 10:55 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Harpo View Post
'cos it makes him feel like a big man?
Partly, and partly because he just Hates the Jews.
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Old 25th February 2010, 11:33 AM   #25
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van Pelt was one of the expert witnesses who helped to squash David Irving's libel case against Deborah Lipstadt (Irving sued Lipstadt for libel for calling him a Holocaust denier. Irving comprehensively lost the case). That may be why some other cretinous Holocaust denier has it in for him and has chosen him, in particular, for a spot of word-twisting.

There's a fascinating, and very readable, account of the trial. including van Pelt's testimony, in a book by D D Guttenplan, The Holocaust on Trial
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Old 25th February 2010, 11:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Hmmm, then where did the NWO have my plane land two weeks ago, and where was I actually born if my birth certificate is wrong? Kenya?
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Old 25th February 2010, 03:06 PM   #27
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As we have seen in another thread, a prominent holohoax scholar admits that there is no physical (or documentary) evidence for the holocaust.

So, why believe it? The answer is testimony. Have you read any of it,the actual first hand reports? Here is a sample from the Nobel prize winning Elie Wiesel - from 'Night', page 6,

"Babies were thrown into the air and the machine gunners used them as targets."

So, we see that some of the 'testimony' is preposterous. Who has condemned this absurdity of Wiesel's? No one. He got the Nobel prize for it. So, if this obvious phantasmagoria passes for 'eyewitness testimony', don't you think it would be a good idea to check out the rest?

No physical evidence by admission of a prominent holohoax 'scholar'. Testimony that is obvious phantasmagoria.

Why believe the hoax?
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Old 25th February 2010, 03:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
So, why believe it? The answer is testimony. Have you read any of it,the actual first hand reports? Here is a sample from the Nobel prize winning Elie Wiesel - from 'Night', page 6,

"Babies were thrown into the air and the machine gunners used them as targets."

So, we see that some of the 'testimony' is preposterous. Who has condemned this absurdity of Wiesel's? No one. He got the Nobel prize for it.

Here's more eye-witness testimony, Oberscharfuhrer Josef Klehr:

Quote:
Jews never gassed? No? Yes, I have already been asked about that. ...Three elderly ladies come to visit us here. That is such an official society. They always want to support us a little bit, to give us a present on our birthdays, and so on, and one of them asked me once if people were gassed in Auschwitz? I said - I will tell you openly and honestly, but if it were someone else, I would have answered that I did not know. But because it is you, I will tell you precisely, that people were gassed. And anyone who maintains that there are no gassing....Yes, I don't understand him, he must be crazy or on the wrong.... When you are three, four years in Auschwitz and experienced everything, then I cannot get myself to lie about it and say that no gassings were ever conducted.
That's what really annoys me, those lying SS b*****ds. Just because they can't be bothered to commit suicide themselves they go and admit to committing imaginary crimes by the thousand so the state has to fork out to execute them. Or maybe they're too tight to pay rent so they decide to fit themselves up so they can loaf around in a luxury prison at the state's expense.

Tough luck some of the freeloading wasters got acquitted. Still, at least those ones are free now to point out the holocaust never happened. Let me just see if I can find an example. . . . . . . . There must be hundreds. . . . . . . Um. . . . .
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Old 25th February 2010, 04:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
As we have seen in another thread, a prominent holohoax scholar admits that there is no physical (or documentary) evidence for the holocaust.

No physical evidence by admission of a prominent holohoax 'scholar'. Testimony that is obvious phantasmagoria.

Why believe the hoax?
Ahem, almost no is not no. And almost no physical evidence is not almost no documentary evidence.
We have the Korherr Bericht in both original and sanitized (read: obfuscated and purged of incriminating words) versions. We have the Höfle telegram.
We have Martin Luther's specimen of the Wannsee conference protocol. Et al.

You might remember the quote by Mr. van Pelt, as you actually quoted him yourself:
Quote:
Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . .
The rest of why it does not mean what you think it means can be seen in this thread.

And as for why physical evidence is hard to come by you may want to read up on Sonderaktion 1005 and Paul Blobel.



That is a picture of a bone crusher used to grind down the bones of Holocaust victims after their bodies were burned.
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Old 25th February 2010, 06:02 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Moss View Post
That is a picture of a bone crusher used to grinrryd down the bones of Holocaust victims after their bodies were burned.
I am certainly no holocaust denier. I believe 100% that the holocaust occured.

However, I am and will forever remain unconvinced that this picture is that of a "bone crusher". It could have been taken in any number of stone producing quarries. The individuals pictured wear no uniforms of either inmates, guards or Axis soldiers.
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Old 25th February 2010, 06:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Hmmm, then where did the NWO have my plane land two weeks ago, and where was I actually born if my birth certificate is wrong? Kenya?
Sure. Suure. Keep up the joke. Nobody will believe you anyway. No human could survive the corner of Portage and Main in the middle of January.
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Old 25th February 2010, 06:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I am certainly no holocaust denier. I believe 100% that the holocaust occured.

However, I am and will forever remain unconvinced that this picture is that of a "bone crusher". It could have been taken in any number of stone producing quarries. The individuals pictured wear no uniforms of either inmates, guards or Axis soldiers.
The German term is Knochenmühle, the closest approximation I found to that in industrial use is bonecrusher, even though bone mill would be a closer translation.
The photo actually has a rather good provenance. According to the sources I found it was used in the concentration camp Janoswka near Lemberg.
Sure, it might also look like a machine that can be used to crush ore on a mining site, but afaik Janowska wasn't anywhere near a mine.

ETA: The depicted persons don't wear uniform as far as I can discern it. That seems to be right. However, the Leichenkommandos/corpse units were composed of concentration camp inmates like the infamous Jewish Sonderkommandos. The question now would be whether or not the secrecy of the Sonderaktion 1005 was enforced by putting them in civilian clothing to make them less obvious. That I can not answer.

Last edited by Moss; 25th February 2010 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 25th February 2010, 06:35 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Well, were you there? Can you see the ozone layer?
Sadly, given enough time, the CTs may prove themselves right re: "no O-Zone layer"
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Old 25th February 2010, 06:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
That's physical evidence, for sure. And, it proves that there is no holohoax. 60,000,000 documents .... hidden for 50 years by whom? The hoaxers. Why - this is the best part - to protect the privacy of the 'victims'. Of course the victims were in court trying to claim their reparations, but the Bad Arolsen data was still kept secret ! It's like a really bad joke. The data is still secret except to those approved by the hoax establishment.

ALL THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE PROVES THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST.

That's why the records are hidden.

By the way, the Russians released the Auschwitz records in the late 80's. The NAZI RECORDS are available. No holocaust at Auschwitz! Google Auschwitz Death Books for more info, they're even available from the Auschwitz museum, you can buy them.
Ahem again, the death books only list people that weren't killed already after the Selektion. Neat little trick to reduce the work and the evidence.
Also the 50 years rule is a normal archival procedure in most cases. People do have a right to privacy.
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Old 25th February 2010, 07:16 PM   #35
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Saggy, you're not going to change anyone's mind. So why do you feel the need to try?
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Old 25th February 2010, 09:08 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
However, I am and will forever remain unconvinced that this picture is that of a "bone crusher".

Well, that's a start. Now, do you believe these people, are as the caption says, 'The Unaware Walk to the Gas Chamber'

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ocaust/o19.jpg

Edited by LashL:  Removed breach of Rule 5. Do not hotlink images in your posts.

Last edited by LashL; 27th March 2010 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 25th February 2010, 09:10 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Well, that's a start. Now, do you believe these people, are as the caption says, 'The Unaware Walk to the Gas Chamber'

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ocaust/o19.jpg
They may have been fully aware.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
However, I am and will forever remain unconvinced that this picture is that of a "bone crusher".
It looks to me like an early hoist motor, or perhaps a construction elevator.
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Old 26th February 2010, 04:01 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Well, that's a start. Now, do you believe these people, are as the caption says, 'The Unaware Walk to the Gas Chamber'

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ocaust/o19.jpg
You must really hate the SS, Saggy. Thousands of people willing to march off to gallows and cells in the name of the Holocaust. Can there be another organisation that has done more to hamper your search for 'truth' than the SS?

I bet it's put you off chicken for life.
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Old 26th February 2010, 02:51 PM   #39
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Edited by Tricky:  Edited for rule 12.
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Old 26th February 2010, 04:46 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
Whats next, OP? Denying the Gulf War?
Gulf? What Gulf? Don't tell me you've fallen for that Persian Gulf nonsense!

BTW, do we have any physical evidence of Hitler's existence?
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