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Tags controlled demolition , Dominic Shenher , scholars for truth

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Old 29th April 2010, 04:47 AM   #201
dafydd
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
elbe,

"And I doubt bringing the towers down was their goal"

Why speculate that it was not their goal to bring down the towers? According to the mainstream beliefs the 93 bombings were an attempt to do exactly that and the same network of bad guys were involved. Why wouldn't that have been their goal? If it was just to hurt people why not fly the airplanes into a baseball stadium or other more crowdwd area?
I dunno,why don't we ask the highjackers?......oh,wait they're all brown bread.
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Old 29th April 2010, 04:51 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
BigAl,

""Explosion" is just a synonym for "loud noise" and there were lots of loud noises heard on 9/11."

Yes 'explosion' could be a synonym for 'loud noises' or for electrical things popping due to the fire, etc. Could explosion also mean the noise that follows from an explosive? Of course this could be a possibility as well.

Real science vigorously explores all reasonable possibilities, not just the ones that support a pre-determined conclusion.
If you knew anything at all about real science you would not be a truther.You're young,get another hobby,get out,get a life,there is no future in trutherism,it is dead and buried.
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Old 29th April 2010, 04:54 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
What about the firefighters who don't think 9/11 was an inside job and who predicted that WTC7 was going to collapse from extensive damage and fire? Do you think the same of their opinions?
He will ignore them,like all good little truther delusionauts do.
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Old 29th April 2010, 05:13 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
Sabrina,

"THERMITE IS AN INCENDIARY DEVICE, NOT AN EXPLOSIVE."

So? What's your point? Please show me where I said that thermite was an explosive. I am aware that it is not.

I wonder if you are aware that thermite can be mixed with explosive materials to make explosives that are considerably quieter than RDX or C4.
Requesting citation yet again....
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Old 29th April 2010, 05:14 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
BigAl,

""Explosion" is just a synonym for "loud noise" and there were lots of loud noises heard on 9/11."

Yes 'explosion' could be a synonym for 'loud noises' or for electrical things popping due to the fire, etc. Could explosion also mean the noise that follows from an explosive? Of course this could be a possibility as well.

Real science vigorously explores all reasonable possibilities, not just the ones that support a pre-determined conclusion.
What is this? Gumbi Science Land? Ace Baker says it was a nuclear weapon. Jammi says it was a space-based energy beam something like Star Trek. Some have even suggested a role for UFOs. Personally, I think it was Ninjas breaking the beams with their barehands. Let's have a conference where we explore all the alternative 911 theories. Let's explore all the possibilities: mermaids, crocodiles, Hello Kitty. This should keep you busy for ages.
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Old 29th April 2010, 05:18 AM   #206
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I never really trusted Hello Kitty. Just sayin'
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Old 29th April 2010, 05:48 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Seymour Butz View Post
Originally Posted by Oystein
There is no such thing as a "quiet explosive" that could conceivably used to crack steel.

Explosives create shockwaves, and it is the shockwave that both severs the steel beam AND creates the sound - the power of the explosive is directly correlated with the decibel level. If your explosion is quiet, it will not break your steel.
Is this right?

I always understood that cutter charges used the explosive element for 2 reasons:

1- to turn the copper liner into a hot (6000F, IIRC ) plasma
2- to direct that plasma onto the target

Not saying that a simple explosive couldn't work.... but damn, it would have to be frickin' huge. IIRC, NIST estimated a charge of 7 lbs of RDX for a hypothetical charge at 7, which would result in 130-140 dB. I'd take wild stab and say that through simple explosive "weight" with no copper plasma, etc, you'd be looking at what, 10-20x the charge? And 140-145 dB?
A copper liner is not necessary in a cutting charge, as explosives with high brisance (such as C4) are capable of cutting steel by itself (even without utilizing the Munroe Effect). You're right though, it is not nearly as efficient as a shaped charge, so a large amount would be required. If my calculations are correct (using basic military demolition calculations), for a plain "explosive on steel" cutting charge on a W14x730 column (which I believe Column 79 of WTC7 was), not even taking into account the welded on side cover plates, would require roughly 80 pounds of TNT, 60 pounds of C4, or about 50 pounds of RDX. Whatever type of H.E. is used, it would be extremely LOUD (I have no idea what the actual decibel level would be).

Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
MattTheTubaGuy,



Then you heard wrong.
demolitionexpertsquestion911. blogspot .com
I like how the Combat Engineer on that list pretends to be an expert on controlled demolitions. Tim Erney states:
"In the Army Reserves I was trained in demolitions so I know what it takes to bring down a building in a controlled symmetrical fashion and what it looks like when it happens."
I too was a Combat Engineer and was also trained in demolitions, and I can confidently say that bringing down a building in a "controlled symmetrical fashion", is not part of the 12B training.

The rest of this list of "demolition experts" is highly suspect. The fact is that anyone who has ever used High Explosives should know that had a charge been detonated in any of the WTC buildings, everyone within a half-mile (at least) would have heard the unmistakable "crack" that is inevitable when something detonates at 20,000+ ft/second.

Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
I wonder if you are aware that thermite can be mixed with explosive materials to make explosives that are considerably quieter than RDX or C4.
That may be one of the dumbest claims I've ever heard from a truther. And it's great that you can confidently make such a ridiculous claim- exposing your ignorance- without a hint of doubt. Congratulations.
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Old 29th April 2010, 05:54 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
I never really trusted Hello Kitty. Just sayin'
I once mail-ordered a Hello-Kitty "massage stick" and had it sent directly from Japan to a woman friend.

Well, this is not the place to describe what part of her body this stick is intended to massage...
I still get a weekly ad mail from "a friend in Japan".
So yeah, Hello Kitty is much more naughty than most realize!
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Old 29th April 2010, 06:13 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Comrade Raptor View Post
But to follow on the trail of leprechaun evidence, I'd bet the ruins had some level of green cloth and gold. That's two items, both of which almost certainly existed in some measurable level, and this means the leprechaun theory, despite being completely ridiculous, is still more plausible than the magic thermite dust.
See? Now I only have to find a deranged British noble or an eccentric Norwegian guy who likes to spell his first name in an odd way who likes my paper, and I'll be up 2-0 (evidence and peer/Peer review) against the Truth Movement.
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Old 29th April 2010, 06:22 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
See? Now I only have to find a deranged British noble or an eccentric Norwegian guy who likes to spell his first name in an odd way who likes my paper, and I'll be up 2-0 (evidence and peer/Peer review) against the Truth Movement.
I'll peer at it for a moment.

Now I'll view it a second time.

OK, that's your theory peer-reviewed, truth movement style.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 29th April 2010, 06:36 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
See? Now I only have to find a deranged British noble or an eccentric Norwegian guy who likes to spell his first name in an odd way who likes my paper, and I'll be up 2-0 (evidence and peer/Peer review) against the Truth Movement.
Oh my nickname is that of an eccentric and strangely spelled Norwegian guy I met ages ago. Does that count?

So let me peer...

Ok, approved!
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Old 29th April 2010, 07:54 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
Sabrina,

"THERMITE IS AN INCENDIARY DEVICE, NOT AN EXPLOSIVE."

So? What's your point? Please show me where I said that thermite was an explosive. I am aware that it is not.

I wonder if you are aware that thermite can be mixed with explosive materials to make explosives that are considerably quieter than RDX or C4.
Cite it or retract it, Dom.
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Old 29th April 2010, 08:04 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Cite it or retract it, Dom.
Now, hang on a minute. I don't think this really needs a cite. It seems to me fairly obvious that, if an explosive is mixed with an inert binder material, a given weight of the resulting mixture is quieter than an equivalent amount of the pure explosive; in fact, if you mix in enough binder, it becomes very much quieter, because it doesn't explode at all. The same is probably true of thermite; add enough thermite and the explosive doesn't explode, it simply burns. It's utterly useless for cutting steel columns, of course, but it's certainly quieter.

What few truthers seem capable of understanding is that many different properties of substances are affected by modifying those substances. It's irrelevant that explosives can be made quieter by modifying them in some randomly chosen fashion; the difficult thing is to make them quieter, but still as destructive. So all this talk of quiet explosives mixed with thermite is just a red herring. What needs to be proven is that it's possible to reduce the noise level from explosives by several orders of magnitude without reducing the blast intensity. Since that's more or less self-contradictory, it's rather tricky to prove.

Given the choice between impossible and irrelevant, which are the truthers going to choose? It's a tough one.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 29th April 2010, 08:18 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
My name is Dom Shenher and I am very proud to belong to the group Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice.

This message is for all those who realize that the story we are being given is wrought with lies and contrary evidence, yet somehow dismiss completely the theory of controlled demolition concerning WTC Towers 1,2, and 7. ...
Scholars for 911 Truth and Justice? They have failed for 8 years to make a rational conclusion on 911. You have Dr Thermite Jones supporting thermite "chips" in the ceiling tiles with radio fuses. Jones is insane and thinks the United States caused the earthquake in Haiti.

There was testing for explosives at the WTC. It is called observation based on reality. No body died due to explosives, no blast effects on any steel, no blast sounds all day long due to explosives, zero thermite products and the list goes on.

Your evidence to support explosives or thermite.

1.

The empty set - 8 years of insane claims = failure
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Old 29th April 2010, 09:47 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Army of One View Post
A copper liner is not necessary in a cutting charge, as explosives with high brisance (such as C4) are capable of cutting steel by itself (even without utilizing the Munroe Effect). You're right though, it is not nearly as efficient as a shaped charge, so a large amount would be required. If my calculations are correct (using basic military demolition calculations), for a plain "explosive on steel" cutting charge on a W14x730 column (which I believe Column 79 of WTC7 was), not even taking into account the welded on side cover plates, would require roughly 80 pounds of TNT, 60 pounds of C4, or about 50 pounds of RDX. Whatever type of H.E. is used, it would be extremely LOUD (I have no idea what the actual decibel level would be).
Now THIS is good info.

So almost 10x the amount of RDX is needed. IIRC, a doubling of energy results in only a 3 dB increase in sound, which is about the human detection level. It takes a 10x increase in energy to result in a 10Db increase. That's how it works with speakers, anyways.

Do you have a link to that military pamphlet?

It would be interesting to show troofs what they're proposing when they say, " Just slap some explosives willy nilly against the columns. No preparation is needed."
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Old 29th April 2010, 10:47 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
Sabrina,

"THERMITE IS AN INCENDIARY DEVICE, NOT AN EXPLOSIVE."

So? What's your point? Please show me where I said that thermite was an explosive. I am aware that it is not.

I wonder if you are aware that thermite can be mixed with explosive materials to make explosives that are considerably quieter than RDX or C4.
your gonna have to prove that claim sir~!
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Old 29th April 2010, 10:59 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
ElMondoHummus,



Yes it was. It was found in the dust by an independent investigator. It was confirmed by several other scientists.
No sir! you are incorrect!
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:02 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by doobiedoright View Post
No sir! you are incorrect!
It appears that dommyboy simply takes things as the truth without question when he agrees with it--no further investigation needed.
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:16 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Seymour Butz View Post
Now THIS is good info.

So almost 10x the amount of RDX is needed. IIRC, a doubling of energy results in only a 3 dB increase in sound, which is about the human detection level. It takes a 10x increase in energy to result in a 10Db increase. That's how it works with speakers, anyways.

Do you have a link to that military pamphlet?

It would be interesting to show troofs what they're proposing when they say, " Just slap some explosives willy nilly against the columns. No preparation is needed."

FM 5-250 Explosives & Demolition

http://www.militarynewbie.com/pubs/F...s%20Manual.pdf
From my notes:
  • Example A-5 plate 14 inches wide, 1 inch thick requires 3 packages of C4
  • Example A-7 7 blocks of C4 needed to cut a 7 inch dia bar. Page 165
  • Each package is 20 cubic inches
  • Table 6-1 Safe distances for blasting near radio transmitters. 50KW - 3,000 meters.
All of WTC was well within the distance that made the use of wire or radio control detonation a high-risk move for the installer. A few Megawatts radiated from the antennas on the North tower,
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Last edited by BigAl; 29th April 2010 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:25 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan View Post
3bodyproblem



It is complex. The Opperation Northwoods plan was actually pretty complex too (albeit the 9/11 conspiracy theories are even more complex). A lot of progress has been made in the last 50 or so years. I have no doubt that the technical advancements and the increasing control over the media make it possible for the American government to try more bold deceptions.

People like me would speculate less if the investigators had simply followed national fire standards and tested for and ruled out the possibility of explosives or incendiary devices. The odd failure to follow this protocol is bound to spark some curiosity and fuel conspiracy theories. It was such a major (and tragic) event. Why ignore these protocols?



Your gonna have to prove that one!
You know those pesky little things we like to call FACTS!
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:35 AM   #221
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Quote:
People like me would speculate less if the investigators had simply followed national fire standards and tested for and ruled out the possibility of explosives or incendiary devices. The odd failure to follow this protocol is bound to spark some curiosity and fuel conspiracy theories. It was such a major (and tragic) event. Why ignore these protocols?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and submit that you would never be convinced 911 wasn't an "inside job" no matter WHAT any investigation turned up if it validated what the NIST said. This is about world view and politics to you, not about facts and evidence. This fact just oozes from every post you make!

If it walks like an irrational ideologue, and quacks like an irrational ideologue, well goldarn it, it must be an irrational ideologue.
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Last edited by twinstead; 29th April 2010 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:37 AM   #222
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Did we run him off or something?
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:50 AM   #223
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Maybe his vaguery was creating such a strong vacuum in his head that the suction became overwhelming and caused an implosion.

Or, maybe he's quickly Googling up some responses. Who knows?
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:53 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Wowzers.

More great stuff.
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:56 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
Maybe his vaguery was creating such a strong vacuum in his head that the suction became overwhelming and caused an implosion.

Oooh, I'm going to write a book about how they used huge suction machines to suck in the sound of the explosions during the controlled demolition. I'll make millions!!!

Crap, I just gave it away for free.
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Old 29th April 2010, 11:59 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Did we run him off or something?
Vampires + Garlic.
Superman + Kryptonite.
Twoofers + Facts.

Works every time!
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Old 29th April 2010, 12:16 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
Maybe his vaguery was creating such a strong vacuum in his head that the suction became overwhelming and caused an implosion. http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...hummus/826.gif

Or, maybe he's quickly Googling up some responses. Who knows?
"I have a real life and a real job unlike you idiots" response from him coming in 5....4...3....2...


TAM
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Old 29th April 2010, 12:19 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Drudgewire View Post
Oooh, I'm going to write a book about how they used huge suction machines to suck in the sound of the explosions during the controlled demolition. I'll make millions!!!

Crap, I just gave it away for free.
D'oh!!!

Damn this internet and it's propensity to expose our stream-of-consciousness musings. Damn this!!!!
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Old 29th April 2010, 12:27 PM   #229
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Wink

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
"I have a real life and a real job unlike you idiots" response from him coming in 5....4...3....2...


TAM
Well, I do agree with one thing: His life is indeed unlike ours. His world is less rational, for starters.
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Old 29th April 2010, 12:55 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Comsat Angel View Post
Vampires + Garlic.
Superman + Kryptonite.
Twoofers + Facts.

Works every time!
Im sure he's greatly embarrassed by now.
What I hate is when you have someone to stupid to be embarrassed.

We'll see which column Derek Johnson falls under in the next few days.
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Old 29th April 2010, 02:12 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Kent1 View Post
Im sure he's greatly embarrassed by now.
What I hate is when you have someone to stupid to be embarrassed.

We'll see which column Derek Johnson falls under in the next few days.
An embarrassed 'Truther' ?
You can only tell by their disappearance after being corrected
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Old 29th April 2010, 03:01 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Seymour Butz View Post
IIRC, a doubling of energy results in only a 3 dB increase in sound, which is about the human detection level.
Humans can detect a change in volume of about 1 dB. That's how come we came to use that oddball measure in the first place.
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Old 29th April 2010, 04:04 PM   #233
Mr. Skinny
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
Humans can detect a change in volume of about 1 dB. That's how come we came to use that oddball measure in the first place.
Yeah, sound measurement is a funny thing. (where's jj when you need him?)

(from memory)

IIRC, 3-5 dB is about the average "doubling factor". I think OSHA uses 5dB and the DoD uses 3 dB. Doubling factor means that a 3-5 dB increase would be percieved as "twice as loud".
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Old 29th April 2010, 07:31 PM   #234
Elizabeth I
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Don't forget FBI agent and whistleblower Coleen Rowley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleen_Rowley
I left her out on purpose because I'm sure our guest would only say she was one of them. You know, THEM.


Originally Posted by timhau View Post
See? Now I only have to find a deranged British noble or an eccentric Norwegian guy who likes to spell his first name in an odd way who likes my paper, and I'll be up 2-0 (evidence and peer/Peer review) against the Truth Movement.
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'll peer at it for a moment.

Now I'll view it a second time.

OK, that's your theory peer-reviewed, truth movement style.

Dave
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Oh my nickname is that of an eccentric and strangely spelled Norwegian guy I met ages ago. Does that count?

So let me peer...

Ok, approved!
Your queen approves.
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Old 29th April 2010, 08:57 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Mr. Skinny View Post
Yeah, sound measurement is a funny thing. (where's jj when you need him?)

(from memory)

IIRC, 3-5 dB is about the average "doubling factor". I think OSHA uses 5dB and the DoD uses 3 dB. Doubling factor means that a 3-5 dB increase would be percieved as "twice as loud".
Decibels are so called because 10 of them make one "Bel," or an order of magnitude difference in amplitude. Therefore, a 3 dB increase means a doubling of pressure amplitude. 103/10 = 2.0.

Where it gets confusing, however, is 6 dB is a doubling of RMS amplitude or of power. This is because power scales as the amplitude squared, and when you square inside a logarithm it's the same as multiplying by 2 outside the logarithm.

For typical sounds, 6 dB is the correct measure, because they are periodic signals. For a single shockwave created by an explosive, 3 dB is more appropriate, since it's aperiodic. [/Dr. Science]
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Old 30th April 2010, 01:12 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Seymour Butz View Post
Do you have a link to that military pamphlet?
Unfortunately, I don't have a link, as I was just going off a "Demolition Card" I had from my days on active duty, which consists mostly of "Hasty Calculations" (meant to be carried and used as a reference by engineers while in the field). The basic equation for Steel Cutting Charges is:

Pounds TNT=3/8 x Area of Cross Section (in sq. inches).

Then to calculate the weight for RDX (or any other type of HE), you just need to divide by that particular explosive's R.E. factor (1.60 for RDX, for example).

Originally Posted by Seymour Butz View Post
It would be interesting to show troofs what they're proposing when they say, " Just slap some explosives willy nilly against the columns. No preparation is needed."
I'm sure most truthers would simply ignore the info, as is common for them when dealing with inconvenient facts. But you're certainly right though- proper placement plays a huge role when it comes to the efficient/effective use of explosives. In some situations, a difference of only a few inches in placement can mean the difference between success and failure.

The link to FM 5-250 that BigAl posted will provide much greater detail, and will hopefully be of use to you when trying to get through to truthers.

Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
FM 5-250 Explosives & Demolition

[Link]
I still find it interesting that as an active duty combat engineer a few years ago, it took me several weeks to get my hands on a copy of FM 5-250, yet any civilian with an internet connection can go online and get it instantly.
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Table 6-1 Safe distances for blasting near radio transmitters. 50KW - 3,000 meters.

All of WTC was well within the distance that made the use of wire or radio control detonation a high-risk move for the installer. A few Megawatts radiated from the antennas on the North tower,
Interesting point.

By the way, didn't the Twin Towers cause multiple problems for the first responders' radio communications anytime they were in the buildings (in 1993 and on 9/11)? Yet, many truthers will claim that the demolition was initiated by conspirators off-site by using radio controlled detonators, apparently without any problems.
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Old 30th April 2010, 02:11 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Army of One View Post
Unfortunately, I don't have a link, as I was just going off a "Demolition Card" I had from my days on active duty, which consists mostly of "Hasty Calculations" (meant to be carried and used as a reference by engineers while in the field). The basic equation for Steel Cutting Charges is:

Pounds TNT=3/8 x Area of Cross Section (in sq. inches).

Then to calculate the weight for RDX (or any other type of HE), you just need to divide by that particular explosive's R.E. factor (1.60 for RDX, for example).
...
Cool and approachable info for know-nothings like me

Just to clarify: The cross section area would apply to the net steel surface, right? So if we have a box-shaped column 10"x10", steel plates 1" across, that would be 36 square-inches (4 sides times 1x9), and not 100 (10x10)?

How sensitive is that formula to the shape of the beam? Would 36 square inches box column need the same amount as 36 square inches T-bar?
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Old 30th April 2010, 04:49 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Did we run him off or something?
Perhaps he has seen the error of his ways.
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Old 30th April 2010, 05:00 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I once mail-ordered a Hello-Kitty "massage stick" and had it sent directly from Japan to a woman friend.

Well, this is not the place to describe what part of her body this stick is intended to massage...
I still get a weekly ad mail from "a friend in Japan".
So yeah, Hello Kitty is much more naughty than most realize!
Those are for educational purposes ONLY!
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Old 30th April 2010, 05:00 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Army of One View Post
Un

The link to FM 5-250 that BigAl posted will provide much greater detail, and will hopefully be of use to you when trying to get through to truthers.

I still find it interesting that as an active duty combat engineer a few years ago, it took me several weeks to get my hands on a copy of FM 5-250, yet any civilian with an internet connection can go online and get it instantly.
Interesting point.

By the way, didn't the Twin Towers cause multiple problems for the first responders' radio communications anytime they were in the buildings (in 1993 and on 9/11)? Yet, many truthers will claim that the demolition was initiated by conspirators off-site by using radio controlled detonators, apparently without any problems.
There was a day when we had public libraries with books like The DuPont Blasting Handbook on the open shelves. I read it.

As for the WTC radios, it's on my list of 9/11 decisions that deserve criminal prosecution. A neighbor was a retired FDNY communications engineer who would blame purchase decisions for the system on mayor Giuliani. This was pre-2001.
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