Science is not a religion, but some scientists ARE religous about their science

If you think the universe has a "beginning" and a finite age then it's a "creation" theory!

I don't recall saying it had a beginning. So, unless I'm mistaken, you're choice of quotation marks is absurd. I'll choose to look kindly on this and assume it to be another case of your bizarre fetish with sticking random quotation marks in your post, rather then a deliberate and dishonest attempt to imply I have said something I haven't.
I never said it had a finite age either. I said (or implied) that there was a finite time in the past where the conditions in the universe were such that our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down. As I said in the previous post: "Before that: who knows?" As in "I don't know". You know, the statement that not 10 minutes ago you were complaining nobody used. You have an extremely short memory.
 
Your mythical thingies don't come from "experiments", they come from point at the sky and make claims about your invisible friend mythologies.
You mean like we point at the stars in the sky?
So it looks like the answer to Does Michael Mozina believe that stars do not exist? is no :D!

Do you have a reason why pointing at stars in the sky is somehow different from pointing at dark matter, dark energy and inflation in the sky?
  • It cannot be experiments in labs because we have never had a star in a lab.
  • It cannot be laws of physics as confirmed by experiments in labs because the laws of physics that allow us to deduce the existence of stars are also used to deduce the existence of dark matter, dark energy and inflation.
 
Michael Mozina said:
What "experimental" support?
[...]
An "experiment" has a control mechanism.
[...]
You mythical thingies don't come from "experiments", they come from point at the sky and make claims about your invisible friend mythologies.
[...]
Just like any religious deity, your mythical entities are complete no shows in the lab.
[...]
You know, this is hilarious.

MM, inventor of Moztronium, Mozplasma, Mozeparation, Mozcharge, Mozwind, Mozode, etc, etc, etc, castigating others for stuff that's a no show in labs, for invoking invisible friends, for developing mythical entities, etc.

ETA: MM is also the one who defines "controlled experiments in the lab" to be "looking at pictures and saying what you see in them".

The irony is rich indeed.
 
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You can't even produce any dark energy, let alone get it to "accelerate' anything in a controlled demonstration of concept.

Dark energy was the latest "add-on" because previous BB theories failed to correctly predict any form of acceleration. BB theory has *ALWAYS* created "support' after the fact by adding in more mythical entities. There is no actual "support", just observations you ultimately cannot explain.

Michael Mozina, I guess you'd better argue with another poster in this thread - coincidentally also named Michael Mozina - who just said

I don't actually disagree with any of your statements.

Those included "a cosmological constant (CC) was included in general relativity (GR) from the very beginning", "the CC...has an effect on the universe at large scales", and "observations of distant type IA supernova indicated that the best fit value for the CC wasn't zero, but small and positive".
 
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Stop relying on news articles and popular accounts for your education and try to learn the actual science. You need to learn the basics or you will continue to display your ignorance about the Big Bang theory to the world to see forever (or as long as the internet exists).
That's a tall order for someone whose profound ignorance of analytic geometry and calculus has been amply demonstrated in other threads. He really has no hope of understanding the scientific literature on general relativity or cosmology. To him, it all looks like
...magic...magic...
...impotent gods...impotent gods...
...impotent invisible gods...impotent gods...faith in the unseen...fear...religion...faith in the unseen...high preist...religion...pure denial...religious food chain...pseudo-science...pseudoscience...religion...Magical entities...magic...
...invisible, made up gods...magical gods...magical gods...
...handwaving at the sky...invisible gods...gods...
...mythical...medieval creationist theory...Prophetic creation theories...YEC...
...mythical thingies...point at the sky...invisible friend...religious deity...mythical entities...mythical entities...religious...supernatural entity...
All of those words came from the previous page of this thread. They are not the words of a scientist who is religious about his science, but the screed of an anti-religious anti-scientist who is both unwilling and unable to distinguish science from religion.

For all that, sol invictus got Michael Mozina to concede this:
I don't actually disagree with any of your statements.
For reference, here are the statements with which Michael Mozina does not actually disagree:
Michael, I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but I'll try once more. Which of the following statements do you disagree with?

a) A cosmological constant (CC) was included in general relativity (GR) from the very beginning in the late 1910's.

b) the CC is the unique term one can add to GR that is consistent with its underlying symmetries and that also has an effect on the universe at large scales.

c) even if one attempts to define a theory in which the CC is zero, quantum mechanics predicts it will receive corrections that make it non-zero.

d) Given b) and c), the CC must be regarded as a parameter in GR whose numerical value cannot be determined a priori, and instead should be fit using observational data (much like GR's other parameter, G).

e) as of the late 1990's, observations of distant type IA supernova indicated that the best fit value for the CC wasn't zero, but small and positive.

f) as of now, multiple independent sets of observations (several independent supernova observation groups, several independent high altitude balloon and satellite CMB experiments, observations of large scale structure) all agree on the numerical value.
As sol invictus has explained, empirical evidence (e) and (f) direct us to the accepted value for the cosmological constant (d) introduced by Einstein (a) and supported independently by both mathematics (b) and other science (c). To reject that chain of reasoning would be unscientific.

To reject that chain of reasoning just because Michael Mozina has no hope of following it would be absurd.
 
Empirical Evidence for Dark Energy II

Where's the empirical link between your impotent gods and expansion or acceleration?
  1. Observational Evidence from Supernovae for an Accelerating Universe and a Cosmological Constant; Riess, et al., The Astronomical Journal 116(3): 1009-1038, September 1998.
  2. Measurements of Omega and Lambda from 42 High-Redshift Supernovae; Perlmutter, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 571(2): 565-586, June 1999.
  3. First-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Determination of Cosmological Parameters; Spergel, et al., The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series 148(1): 175-194, September 2003.
  4. Type Ia Supernovae at z > 1 from the Hubble Space Telescope: Evidence for Past Deceleration and Constraints on the Dark Energy Equation of State; Riess, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 607(2): 665-687, June 2004.
  5. The Supernova Legacy Survey: measurement of ΩM, ΩΛ and w from the first year data set; Astier, et al., Astronomy and Astrophysics 447(1): February III 2006.
  6. Three-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Implications for Cosmology; Spergel, et al., The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series 170(2): 377-408, June 2007.
  7. Observational Constraints on the Nature of Dark Energy: First Results from the ESSENCE Supernova Survey; Wood-Vasey, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 666(2): 694-715, September 2007.
  8. Seven-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Cosmological Interpretation; Komatsu, et al., preprint submitted to The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series, version 2 dated 12 February 2010.
These listed and the many thousand citations thereto.
Every single one of those papers *assumes* a cause/effect link. Show me in the lab. I can easily show you a cause/effect connection between EM fields and expansion and acceleration in the lab. You can't even produce any dark energy, let alone get it to "accelerate' anything in a controlled demonstration of concept.
Your response is not relevant to the issue. You specifically asked for empirical evidence and that is exactly what I provided. If you wanted something else you should have asked for something else. As far as I am concerned, I provided you with empirical evidence. If you think I have not, then say so explicitly, and explain why the evidence I provided is not empirical.
 
Arthur C. Clarke has been quoted as saying, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think it's in this sense that Mozina sees the science of modern physics and cosmology as religion and magic. Without the essential mathematics, there is no hope of understanding and his narcissism will not allow him to accept the superior knowledge of specialists.
 
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Arthur C. Clarke has been quoted as saying, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think it's in this sense that Mozina sees the science of modern physics and cosmology as religion and magic. Without the essential mathematics, there is no hope of understanding and his narcissism will not allow him to accept the superior knowledge of specialists.

Ca-ching!

This seems to extend to a number of concepts in general which people will post about on the forum:
-general relativity
-special relativity
-dark matter
-dark energy
-theory of evolution


One should not just blindly accept the superior knowledge of specialist but try to understand what they say. If one does not understand, one can not critique
 
Arthur C. Clarke has been quoted as saying, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think it's in this sense that Mozina sees the science of modern physics and cosmology as religion and magic.

The flaw in that logic is empirical. A cell phone might "seem" magical if the mathematics and engineering are beyond the understanding of the user, but the device itself is proof that it "works". The biggest doubter of electrical engineering would still be exposed to real world devices that made it clear that it's not 'magic". In your religion however, the "unseen entities" never have an empirical effect here on Earth. They are in fact physically indistinguishable from magic. No consumer product uses inflation or dark energy. Nothing runs on mythical forms of matter. There is no empirical difference whatsoever between magic and Guth's mythical inflation. Even though *THAT* particular brand of inflation was evidently falsified, the concept lives on. It's unfalsifiable, and in that sense it's exactly like magic. Just as magic can be infinitely creative (due to it's lack of physical reality), so too, inflation now comes in a never ending variety of colors, forms and features. :)

Without the essential mathematics, there is no hope of understanding and his narcissism will not allow him to accept the superior knowledge of specialists.

The assumption of course is that the mathematics is the problem. It's not. You are simply ascribing mathematical qualities to invisible entities, much like any religious individual might ascribe arbitrary properties to a deity. None of these "properties" or features, or abilities show up on Earth.

It's intriguing how this belittlement process works in this case. Since you folks can't call me "evil' for not buying into your mythical entities, you belittle the individual as lacking in math skills. It's an interesting tactic because it implies that math alone defines what is "real". It also implies that "truth" is found in "math" alone. That's absurd of course, but that's the implication. The "high priests' are the guys that toed the party line and got the Phd so they can carry on the dark traditions of the past. If this isn't a "religion", I don't know what else to call it. It's 96 percent faith in the unseen, with 4 percent physics to give it some air of empirical legitimacy. It's pure faith in mythical energies, and pure faith in what Alfven called "pseudoscience". Of course not a single one of you actually applies the "appeal to authority' concept to your own religion. :) What a crock. Wake me up when Walmart sells something that runs on "dark energy" or inflation. In the mean time you're peddling religion/magic under the guise of science, and you aren't fooling me one bit. No amount of villianizing me is going to make your mythical gods show up in a lab or have any effect on me at all. Like all mythical entities, they only appear in legends, not here on Earth, certainly not in any useful consumer product. They only place they have any use in the creation mythology itself. That should be your first clue....
 
I don't recall saying it had a beginning. So, unless I'm mistaken, you're choice of quotation marks is absurd. I'll choose to look kindly on this and assume it to be another case of your bizarre fetish with sticking random quotation marks in your post, rather then a deliberate and dishonest attempt to imply I have said something I haven't.

You're right of course. It's a terrible habit and very hard to break.

I never said it had a finite age either. I said (or implied) that there was a finite time in the past where the conditions in the universe were such that our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down.

But how do you know that? Alfven's "big bang" didn't require physics as we understand it to 'break down"". How do you know that the laws of physics have ever 'broken down"? Aren't you using this "broken down" concept to imply a "creation date" of the laws of physics as we understand them?

As I said in the previous post: "Before that: who knows?" As in "I don't know". You know, the statement that not 10 minutes ago you were complaining nobody used. You have an extremely short memory.

The basic problem is that there are extremely personal and subtle differences in how specific individuals perceive and explain the "bang". Usually the "cause" isn't ever directly specified. You don't even personally seem convinced that all the matter and energy began as a singular entity.
 
You're right of course. It's a terrible habit and very hard to break.
OK.

But how do you know that? Alfven's "big bang" didn't require physics as we understand it to 'break down"". How do you know that the laws of physics have ever 'broken down"? Aren't you using this "broken down" concept to imply a "creation date" of the laws of physics as we understand them?
Again, I didn't say the laws of physics break down. I said our understanding of them does. The same is true of black holes by the way. Our laws of physics we have are based on what we can observe (and to a certain extent limits on what we cannot observe eg we model the electron as a point particle but don't know this for certain, only that any structure must smaller than a certain scale). What we don't have is a unified theory of everything. So certain laws are only applicable on certain scales. Now two of the cornerstones of modern physics are our theory of the very small (broadly speaking that's quantum mechanics) and our theory of gravity (ie General Relativity). But gravity is weak, so we can only observe its effects on large scales. In that sense our theories of QM and GR are completely separate and in ordinary every day life (and most other situation for that matter) this doesn't matter. The problems occur when we talk about situations where the two regimes overlap. This is what happens with black holes and its what happens when we study the evolution of the universe and go back about 13.7 billion years. We find that the two theories aren't compatible is these extreme situations: that's what I mean by our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down. Nevertheless, QM and GR do an extremely good job where relevant in all other situations (that I'm aware of at least).

The basic problem is that there are extremely personal and subtle differences in how specific individuals perceive and explain the "bang". Usually the "cause" isn't ever directly specified.
Sure. Although you have to be careful to distinguish between popular science explanations for the layman (where the words used may be less precise) and technical explanations for the specialist. As for the cause? Well we don't know, though some are happy to speculate. But the Big Bang theory (or rather LCDM) is a model of the evolution of the universe after the "bang". This is directly analogous to biological evolution. In biological evolution, the question of where the first life came from falls out of the theories remit. In cosmic evolution, the the question of where the bang from is out of the theories remit.

You don't even personally seem convinced that all the matter and energy began as a singular entity.
I'm not. There's nothing to say it did.
 
...

The assumption of course is that the mathematics is the problem. It's not. You are simply ascribing mathematical qualities to invisible entities, much like any religious individual might ascribe arbitrary properties to a deity. None of these "properties" or features, or abilities show up on Earth.
...

What you fail to realize is that without an understanding of the mathematics, you have no basis with which to comprehend, analyze and critique modern cosmological theory.
As I have often said, I am a layman with enough mathematical training to generally follow the these subjects, but I lack the specific training to totally grasp them. Consequently, when I have had discussions (debates) with the experts on this forum, although I may retain some scepticism, in the end, I have no choice but to yield to those with a superior understanding of the subject.
It would be bizarre for me to retain and attempt to defend some alternative theory which more comfortably fits my limited knowledge. How could I challenge a prevailing theory if I do not thoroughly understand it? It would be just plain silly -- but that is precisely what you are doing!
 
What you fail to realize is that without an understanding of the mathematics, you have no basis with which to comprehend, analyze and critique modern cosmological theory.

It's not that I don't understand the math, it's that I believe the math is contrived, much like the math's related to planetary epicycles when people believed the Earth was the center of the universe. Math alone tells us nothing. Without physics, empirical physics, those maths really mean nothing. They are essentially slapping math to the side of a metaphysical pig, much like numerology. Our human ignorance should not be "covered up" by "making up" stories about magical forms of energy and matter that have never been seen on Earth. That's pure rubbish with nice looking math.

As I have often said, I am a layman with enough mathematical training to generally follow the these subjects, but I lack the specific training to totally grasp them.

There is a distinct difference between "grasp" and "believe". It's not that I don't grasp the concept, I simply lack belief in these mythical forms of matter and energy much like the epicycle example. Sure, *IF* these mythical forms of matter and energy existed, it would be fine. The problem is *IF* magic existed, it too would be "fine". There's no empirical distinction between magical forms of matter and energy, and the contrived ones that prop up mainstream cosmology theory.

Consequently, when I have had discussions (debates) with the experts on this forum,

Ah, you played right into Tim's hands then and bowed tot he high Phd Priest of the religion, not based on demonstrated cause/effect relationships, but due to some feeling of mathematical inadequacy within? Hmmm. Interesting.

although I may retain some scepticism,

IMO it's been awhile since you've shown any skepticism toward mainstream theory. Their trio of unseen mythical forms of matter and energy are at least as impotent in the lab as any religious deity. What's the empirical difference?

in the end, I have no choice but to yield to those with a superior understanding of the subject.

Ya, and many "sinners" simply accept the words of clergy for exactly the same basic rationalization IMO.

It would be bizarre for me to retain and attempt to defend some alternative theory which more comfortably fits my limited knowledge. How could I challenge a prevailing theory if I do not thoroughly understand it? It would be just plain silly -- but that is precisely what you are doing!

That's not true. I simply lack belief is some form of mythical "dark energy'. I'm sure we are fundamentally unaware of the sum total of energy inside the universe, but it has nothing to do with "dark energy", just "human ignorance". This crew won't even accept the fundamental principles of physic and electrical engineering. What hope do they have of "understanding" an electric universe with that attitude? Everything they don't don't "understand" the chalk up to what Alfven called "pseudoscience", or some mythical form of matter or energy. The whole thing reeks of "religion" and requires absolute faith in the "unseen" and some bizarre emotional need to put the magnetic cart before the electric horse.

Sorry PS, I really wish I shared you "faith" in mainstream theory, but the more papers I read, the less "faith"" I have in any of their impotent forms of matter and energy. Our ignorance is what makes most of the universe "dark", not mythical forms of matter and energy. We don't even apply the physics we *DO* understand properly to objects in space yet. What's the point then of making up stuff on a whim and slapping on some math?
 
OK.


Again, I didn't say the laws of physics break down. I said our understanding of them does. The same is true of black holes by the way. Our laws of physics we have are based on what we can observe (and to a certain extent limits on what we cannot observe eg we model the electron as a point particle but don't know this for certain, only that any structure must smaller than a certain scale).

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/How_Much_Mass_Makes_A_Black_Hole_999.html

Well, i suppose that statement is supported by recent discoveries.

What we don't have is a unified theory of everything. So certain laws are only applicable on certain scales. Now two of the cornerstones of modern physics are our theory of the very small (broadly speaking that's quantum mechanics) and our theory of gravity (ie General Relativity). But gravity is weak, so we can only observe its effects on large scales.

IMO that's not true. We can observe the effect of gravity up close and personal. What you're essentially doing from my perspective is "imagining" that gravity is the only relevant known force in the universe and 'assuming' all events in space relate directly and only to "gravity". I don't see any evidence from experiments on Earth that gravity is repulsive. I can't jump off the planet, can you? What makes you think acceleration of objects is even remotely related to gravity theory in the first place?

In that sense our theories of QM and GR are completely separate and in ordinary every day life (and most other situation for that matter) this doesn't matter. The problems occur when we talk about situations where the two regimes overlap. This is what happens with black holes.....

Yes, but that tends to be where particle physics theory meets cosmology theory and there are "subjective" interpretations involved. Not everyone believes that so called 'black holes' possess infinite density for instance. This leads to a variety of theories about the nature of very heavy massive objects and new "discoveries" are happening all the time.

and its what happens when we study the evolution of the universe and go back about 13.7 billion years.

Why just 13.7? Why not 49.88? What's that emotional attachment to 13.7 all about?

We find that the two theories aren't compatible is these extreme situations: that's what I mean by our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down. Nevertheless, QM and GR do an extremely good job where relevant in all other situations (that I'm aware of at least).

I'm still not personally convinced that our understanding is actually correct in the first place. These ideas are predicated upon assumptions about the nature of neutron degenerate matter for example. They are predicated upon a belief in an "infinite" density type of object. That's a mathematical limit, not necessarily a physical reality.

Sure. Although you have to be careful to distinguish between popular science explanations for the layman (where the words used may be less precise) and technical explanations for the specialist. As for the cause? Well we don't know, though some are happy to speculate. But the Big Bang theory (or rather LCDM) is a model of the evolution of the universe after the "bang". This is directly analogous to biological evolution.

Does biological evolutionary theory require faith in dark energy, dark matter or inflation? I think that's a very poor analogy actually, but...

In biological evolution, the question of where the first life came from falls out of the theories remit. In cosmic evolution, the the question of where the bang from is out of the theories remit.

In this case however you're A) leaving out the hardest part from the standpoint of physics. How did all that mass get moving from condensed gravity well formed from all that radically condensed mass and energy? HOw Condensed was it? When did the Higg's particle form? How large was the universe? If you're going to ask questions, do you think you should be looking for actual physical explanations about your presumed "bang"? How do you even know for instance that all matter and energy was even located within say a billion light years of one another or that it went "bang" at all?
 
PS, look at it this way.....

Suppose you and I lived in the past we both "lost our faith" in the whole concept of an Earth centric universe. Suppose people kept handing you and me paper after paper after paper on planetary epicycles to "prove to us" that their beautiful Earth centric theory "predicts" all the movements of the sun and planets? Would you still simply 'have faith" in their math only because you and I don't really have a "better" explanation just yet in terms of the math?
 
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Your response is not relevant to the issue.

Of course it is. You've failed to demonstrate a single empirical cause/effect link between an observation of constant expansion and/or acceleration and your mythical forms of energies. You *ASSUMED* it. Demonstrate it here and now. Can you do that, yes or no?

If your mythical energy is a no show on Earth, why should I believe it shows up "somewhere out there"? Where do I get some "dark energy"? Just because there is a constant in GR (which Einstein set to zero), it does not give you the privilege of stuffing magic into that constant. If you can show a cause/effect link between the movement of matter and your mythical energies, let's see it here and now. If not, I think you just made them up in your head like any good believer in "metaphysics". Lots of folks "have faith" in numerology and swear by it. It doesn't mean I agree with their math or there use of math, even if there isn't a problem in the actual math and they are "experts" on the maths related to numerology. :)
 
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That's a tall order for someone whose profound ignorance....

At least I admit my own ignorance Mr. Spock. I'd rather just "fess up" than dream up a trio of "invisible friends" so that I can "believe" that I understand how the universe operates. In the end there is nothing wrong with your math nor is there anything wrong with the math related to numerology. Math can be used and abused and that is frequently the case, and it's the case with mainstream theory IMO.

I admit, I am "ignorant" of "dark energy". I've never seen it do anything here on Earth. Have you? I'm ignorant of 'inflation". I've never seen any of it's "properties" demonstrated in a lab. Have you? IMO the only difference between us is that I "lack faith" in your math, not because there is anything wrong with math in general, but because you're *abusing* it IMO. I simply lack belief that my ignorance is going to go away by "having faith" in something called "dark energy". All I see is a pattern of acceleration at best case. I see no link between that observation and mythical forms of energy.

As sol invictus has explained, empirical evidence (e) and (f) direct us[ to the accepted value for the cosmological constant (d) introduced by Einstein (a) and supported independently by both mathematics (b) and other science (c). To reject that chain of reasoning would be unscientific.

Just because there is room for a constant doesn't mean that constant is related to "dark" stuff. You made that up! There is still no empirical (demonstrated) cause/effect link between you mythical energies and expansion or acceleration of objects of mass. I can show you empirical experiments where EM fields expand and accelerate plasma. Where's your demonstration of concept?
 
No idea what you're talking about. You've already agreed that "the CC...has an effect on the universe at large scales".

You've not shown any cause/effect link between that 'constant" and inflation or dark energy. Even if the universe expands and accelerates, what does that have to do with your invisible forms of energy? Where's the empirical demonstration of concept?

It's not necessarily the concept of an expanding and even an accelerating universe that I disagree with. I simply 'lack belief" that "dark energy" or inflation, or mythical forms of matter have anything at all to do with it. I can make EM fields accelerate ordinary matter here and now in the lab. Can your imagined energy do that, yes or no?
 
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PS, look at it this way.....

Suppose you and I lived in the past we both "lost our faith" in the whole concept of an Earth centric universe. Suppose people kept handing you and me paper after paper after paper on planetary epicycles to "prove to us" that their beautiful Earth centric theory "predicts" all the movements of the sun and planets? Would you still simply 'have faith" in their math only because you and I don't really have a "better" explanation just yet in terms of the math?

This discussion has nothing to do with "faith." We live in a world with thousands of physicists and cosmologists who are constantly checking, cross-checking and rechecking their theories and observations. They are not part-time enthusiasts whose real job is salesman or computer programmer; they are professionals, with many years of training in the areas we are discussing here. Every one of them would cherish the opportunity of being credited with having contributed or changed something important in their field. Yes, history has shown that new ideas are sometimes difficult to accept for those dedicated to an existing dogma, but science moves on and better models ultimately prevail.

When you can tell me convincingly that you have a basic understanding of the meaning of all the terms in the following equation and are capable of discussing its implications, then you will have some credibility -- otherwise you remain nothing more than a persistent crank!

[latex] R_\mu_\nu - \dfrac{1}{2}g_\mu_\nu R + g_\mu_\nu\Lambda= \dfrac{8\pi G}{c^4}T_\mu_\nu [/latex]
 

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