Science is not a religion, but some scientists ARE religous about their science

If you think the universe has a "beginning" and a finite age then it's a "creation" theory!

I don't recall saying it had a beginning. So, unless I'm mistaken, you're choice of quotation marks is absurd. I'll choose to look kindly on this and assume it to be another case of your bizarre fetish with sticking random quotation marks in your post, rather then a deliberate and dishonest attempt to imply I have said something I haven't.
I never said it had a finite age either. I said (or implied) that there was a finite time in the past where the conditions in the universe were such that our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down. As I said in the previous post: "Before that: who knows?" As in "I don't know". You know, the statement that not 10 minutes ago you were complaining nobody used. You have an extremely short memory.
 
Your mythical thingies don't come from "experiments", they come from point at the sky and make claims about your invisible friend mythologies.
You mean like we point at the stars in the sky?
So it looks like the answer to Does Michael Mozina believe that stars do not exist? is no :D!

Do you have a reason why pointing at stars in the sky is somehow different from pointing at dark matter, dark energy and inflation in the sky?
  • It cannot be experiments in labs because we have never had a star in a lab.
  • It cannot be laws of physics as confirmed by experiments in labs because the laws of physics that allow us to deduce the existence of stars are also used to deduce the existence of dark matter, dark energy and inflation.
 
Michael Mozina said:
What "experimental" support?
[...]
An "experiment" has a control mechanism.
[...]
You mythical thingies don't come from "experiments", they come from point at the sky and make claims about your invisible friend mythologies.
[...]
Just like any religious deity, your mythical entities are complete no shows in the lab.
[...]
You know, this is hilarious.

MM, inventor of Moztronium, Mozplasma, Mozeparation, Mozcharge, Mozwind, Mozode, etc, etc, etc, castigating others for stuff that's a no show in labs, for invoking invisible friends, for developing mythical entities, etc.

ETA: MM is also the one who defines "controlled experiments in the lab" to be "looking at pictures and saying what you see in them".

The irony is rich indeed.
 
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You can't even produce any dark energy, let alone get it to "accelerate' anything in a controlled demonstration of concept.

Dark energy was the latest "add-on" because previous BB theories failed to correctly predict any form of acceleration. BB theory has *ALWAYS* created "support' after the fact by adding in more mythical entities. There is no actual "support", just observations you ultimately cannot explain.

Michael Mozina, I guess you'd better argue with another poster in this thread - coincidentally also named Michael Mozina - who just said

I don't actually disagree with any of your statements.

Those included "a cosmological constant (CC) was included in general relativity (GR) from the very beginning", "the CC...has an effect on the universe at large scales", and "observations of distant type IA supernova indicated that the best fit value for the CC wasn't zero, but small and positive".
 
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Stop relying on news articles and popular accounts for your education and try to learn the actual science. You need to learn the basics or you will continue to display your ignorance about the Big Bang theory to the world to see forever (or as long as the internet exists).
That's a tall order for someone whose profound ignorance of analytic geometry and calculus has been amply demonstrated in other threads. He really has no hope of understanding the scientific literature on general relativity or cosmology. To him, it all looks like
...magic...magic...
...impotent gods...impotent gods...
...impotent invisible gods...impotent gods...faith in the unseen...fear...religion...faith in the unseen...high preist...religion...pure denial...religious food chain...pseudo-science...pseudoscience...religion...Magical entities...magic...
...invisible, made up gods...magical gods...magical gods...
...handwaving at the sky...invisible gods...gods...
...mythical...medieval creationist theory...Prophetic creation theories...YEC...
...mythical thingies...point at the sky...invisible friend...religious deity...mythical entities...mythical entities...religious...supernatural entity...
All of those words came from the previous page of this thread. They are not the words of a scientist who is religious about his science, but the screed of an anti-religious anti-scientist who is both unwilling and unable to distinguish science from religion.

For all that, sol invictus got Michael Mozina to concede this:
I don't actually disagree with any of your statements.
For reference, here are the statements with which Michael Mozina does not actually disagree:
Michael, I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but I'll try once more. Which of the following statements do you disagree with?

a) A cosmological constant (CC) was included in general relativity (GR) from the very beginning in the late 1910's.

b) the CC is the unique term one can add to GR that is consistent with its underlying symmetries and that also has an effect on the universe at large scales.

c) even if one attempts to define a theory in which the CC is zero, quantum mechanics predicts it will receive corrections that make it non-zero.

d) Given b) and c), the CC must be regarded as a parameter in GR whose numerical value cannot be determined a priori, and instead should be fit using observational data (much like GR's other parameter, G).

e) as of the late 1990's, observations of distant type IA supernova indicated that the best fit value for the CC wasn't zero, but small and positive.

f) as of now, multiple independent sets of observations (several independent supernova observation groups, several independent high altitude balloon and satellite CMB experiments, observations of large scale structure) all agree on the numerical value.
As sol invictus has explained, empirical evidence (e) and (f) direct us to the accepted value for the cosmological constant (d) introduced by Einstein (a) and supported independently by both mathematics (b) and other science (c). To reject that chain of reasoning would be unscientific.

To reject that chain of reasoning just because Michael Mozina has no hope of following it would be absurd.
 
Empirical Evidence for Dark Energy II

Where's the empirical link between your impotent gods and expansion or acceleration?
  1. Observational Evidence from Supernovae for an Accelerating Universe and a Cosmological Constant; Riess, et al., The Astronomical Journal 116(3): 1009-1038, September 1998.
  2. Measurements of Omega and Lambda from 42 High-Redshift Supernovae; Perlmutter, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 571(2): 565-586, June 1999.
  3. First-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Determination of Cosmological Parameters; Spergel, et al., The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series 148(1): 175-194, September 2003.
  4. Type Ia Supernovae at z > 1 from the Hubble Space Telescope: Evidence for Past Deceleration and Constraints on the Dark Energy Equation of State; Riess, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 607(2): 665-687, June 2004.
  5. The Supernova Legacy Survey: measurement of ΩM, ΩΛ and w from the first year data set; Astier, et al., Astronomy and Astrophysics 447(1): February III 2006.
  6. Three-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Implications for Cosmology; Spergel, et al., The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series 170(2): 377-408, June 2007.
  7. Observational Constraints on the Nature of Dark Energy: First Results from the ESSENCE Supernova Survey; Wood-Vasey, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 666(2): 694-715, September 2007.
  8. Seven-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Cosmological Interpretation; Komatsu, et al., preprint submitted to The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series, version 2 dated 12 February 2010.
These listed and the many thousand citations thereto.
Every single one of those papers *assumes* a cause/effect link. Show me in the lab. I can easily show you a cause/effect connection between EM fields and expansion and acceleration in the lab. You can't even produce any dark energy, let alone get it to "accelerate' anything in a controlled demonstration of concept.
Your response is not relevant to the issue. You specifically asked for empirical evidence and that is exactly what I provided. If you wanted something else you should have asked for something else. As far as I am concerned, I provided you with empirical evidence. If you think I have not, then say so explicitly, and explain why the evidence I provided is not empirical.
 
Arthur C. Clarke has been quoted as saying, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think it's in this sense that Mozina sees the science of modern physics and cosmology as religion and magic. Without the essential mathematics, there is no hope of understanding and his narcissism will not allow him to accept the superior knowledge of specialists.
 
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Arthur C. Clarke has been quoted as saying, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think it's in this sense that Mozina sees the science of modern physics and cosmology as religion and magic. Without the essential mathematics, there is no hope of understanding and his narcissism will not allow him to accept the superior knowledge of specialists.

Ca-ching!

This seems to extend to a number of concepts in general which people will post about on the forum:
-general relativity
-special relativity
-dark matter
-dark energy
-theory of evolution


One should not just blindly accept the superior knowledge of specialist but try to understand what they say. If one does not understand, one can not critique
 
Arthur C. Clarke has been quoted as saying, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think it's in this sense that Mozina sees the science of modern physics and cosmology as religion and magic.

The flaw in that logic is empirical. A cell phone might "seem" magical if the mathematics and engineering are beyond the understanding of the user, but the device itself is proof that it "works". The biggest doubter of electrical engineering would still be exposed to real world devices that made it clear that it's not 'magic". In your religion however, the "unseen entities" never have an empirical effect here on Earth. They are in fact physically indistinguishable from magic. No consumer product uses inflation or dark energy. Nothing runs on mythical forms of matter. There is no empirical difference whatsoever between magic and Guth's mythical inflation. Even though *THAT* particular brand of inflation was evidently falsified, the concept lives on. It's unfalsifiable, and in that sense it's exactly like magic. Just as magic can be infinitely creative (due to it's lack of physical reality), so too, inflation now comes in a never ending variety of colors, forms and features. :)

Without the essential mathematics, there is no hope of understanding and his narcissism will not allow him to accept the superior knowledge of specialists.

The assumption of course is that the mathematics is the problem. It's not. You are simply ascribing mathematical qualities to invisible entities, much like any religious individual might ascribe arbitrary properties to a deity. None of these "properties" or features, or abilities show up on Earth.

It's intriguing how this belittlement process works in this case. Since you folks can't call me "evil' for not buying into your mythical entities, you belittle the individual as lacking in math skills. It's an interesting tactic because it implies that math alone defines what is "real". It also implies that "truth" is found in "math" alone. That's absurd of course, but that's the implication. The "high priests' are the guys that toed the party line and got the Phd so they can carry on the dark traditions of the past. If this isn't a "religion", I don't know what else to call it. It's 96 percent faith in the unseen, with 4 percent physics to give it some air of empirical legitimacy. It's pure faith in mythical energies, and pure faith in what Alfven called "pseudoscience". Of course not a single one of you actually applies the "appeal to authority' concept to your own religion. :) What a crock. Wake me up when Walmart sells something that runs on "dark energy" or inflation. In the mean time you're peddling religion/magic under the guise of science, and you aren't fooling me one bit. No amount of villianizing me is going to make your mythical gods show up in a lab or have any effect on me at all. Like all mythical entities, they only appear in legends, not here on Earth, certainly not in any useful consumer product. They only place they have any use in the creation mythology itself. That should be your first clue....
 
I don't recall saying it had a beginning. So, unless I'm mistaken, you're choice of quotation marks is absurd. I'll choose to look kindly on this and assume it to be another case of your bizarre fetish with sticking random quotation marks in your post, rather then a deliberate and dishonest attempt to imply I have said something I haven't.

You're right of course. It's a terrible habit and very hard to break.

I never said it had a finite age either. I said (or implied) that there was a finite time in the past where the conditions in the universe were such that our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down.

But how do you know that? Alfven's "big bang" didn't require physics as we understand it to 'break down"". How do you know that the laws of physics have ever 'broken down"? Aren't you using this "broken down" concept to imply a "creation date" of the laws of physics as we understand them?

As I said in the previous post: "Before that: who knows?" As in "I don't know". You know, the statement that not 10 minutes ago you were complaining nobody used. You have an extremely short memory.

The basic problem is that there are extremely personal and subtle differences in how specific individuals perceive and explain the "bang". Usually the "cause" isn't ever directly specified. You don't even personally seem convinced that all the matter and energy began as a singular entity.
 
You're right of course. It's a terrible habit and very hard to break.
OK.

But how do you know that? Alfven's "big bang" didn't require physics as we understand it to 'break down"". How do you know that the laws of physics have ever 'broken down"? Aren't you using this "broken down" concept to imply a "creation date" of the laws of physics as we understand them?
Again, I didn't say the laws of physics break down. I said our understanding of them does. The same is true of black holes by the way. Our laws of physics we have are based on what we can observe (and to a certain extent limits on what we cannot observe eg we model the electron as a point particle but don't know this for certain, only that any structure must smaller than a certain scale). What we don't have is a unified theory of everything. So certain laws are only applicable on certain scales. Now two of the cornerstones of modern physics are our theory of the very small (broadly speaking that's quantum mechanics) and our theory of gravity (ie General Relativity). But gravity is weak, so we can only observe its effects on large scales. In that sense our theories of QM and GR are completely separate and in ordinary every day life (and most other situation for that matter) this doesn't matter. The problems occur when we talk about situations where the two regimes overlap. This is what happens with black holes and its what happens when we study the evolution of the universe and go back about 13.7 billion years. We find that the two theories aren't compatible is these extreme situations: that's what I mean by our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down. Nevertheless, QM and GR do an extremely good job where relevant in all other situations (that I'm aware of at least).

The basic problem is that there are extremely personal and subtle differences in how specific individuals perceive and explain the "bang". Usually the "cause" isn't ever directly specified.
Sure. Although you have to be careful to distinguish between popular science explanations for the layman (where the words used may be less precise) and technical explanations for the specialist. As for the cause? Well we don't know, though some are happy to speculate. But the Big Bang theory (or rather LCDM) is a model of the evolution of the universe after the "bang". This is directly analogous to biological evolution. In biological evolution, the question of where the first life came from falls out of the theories remit. In cosmic evolution, the the question of where the bang from is out of the theories remit.

You don't even personally seem convinced that all the matter and energy began as a singular entity.
I'm not. There's nothing to say it did.
 
...

The assumption of course is that the mathematics is the problem. It's not. You are simply ascribing mathematical qualities to invisible entities, much like any religious individual might ascribe arbitrary properties to a deity. None of these "properties" or features, or abilities show up on Earth.
...

What you fail to realize is that without an understanding of the mathematics, you have no basis with which to comprehend, analyze and critique modern cosmological theory.
As I have often said, I am a layman with enough mathematical training to generally follow the these subjects, but I lack the specific training to totally grasp them. Consequently, when I have had discussions (debates) with the experts on this forum, although I may retain some scepticism, in the end, I have no choice but to yield to those with a superior understanding of the subject.
It would be bizarre for me to retain and attempt to defend some alternative theory which more comfortably fits my limited knowledge. How could I challenge a prevailing theory if I do not thoroughly understand it? It would be just plain silly -- but that is precisely what you are doing!
 
What you fail to realize is that without an understanding of the mathematics, you have no basis with which to comprehend, analyze and critique modern cosmological theory.

It's not that I don't understand the math, it's that I believe the math is contrived, much like the math's related to planetary epicycles when people believed the Earth was the center of the universe. Math alone tells us nothing. Without physics, empirical physics, those maths really mean nothing. They are essentially slapping math to the side of a metaphysical pig, much like numerology. Our human ignorance should not be "covered up" by "making up" stories about magical forms of energy and matter that have never been seen on Earth. That's pure rubbish with nice looking math.

As I have often said, I am a layman with enough mathematical training to generally follow the these subjects, but I lack the specific training to totally grasp them.

There is a distinct difference between "grasp" and "believe". It's not that I don't grasp the concept, I simply lack belief in these mythical forms of matter and energy much like the epicycle example. Sure, *IF* these mythical forms of matter and energy existed, it would be fine. The problem is *IF* magic existed, it too would be "fine". There's no empirical distinction between magical forms of matter and energy, and the contrived ones that prop up mainstream cosmology theory.

Consequently, when I have had discussions (debates) with the experts on this forum,

Ah, you played right into Tim's hands then and bowed tot he high Phd Priest of the religion, not based on demonstrated cause/effect relationships, but due to some feeling of mathematical inadequacy within? Hmmm. Interesting.

although I may retain some scepticism,

IMO it's been awhile since you've shown any skepticism toward mainstream theory. Their trio of unseen mythical forms of matter and energy are at least as impotent in the lab as any religious deity. What's the empirical difference?

in the end, I have no choice but to yield to those with a superior understanding of the subject.

Ya, and many "sinners" simply accept the words of clergy for exactly the same basic rationalization IMO.

It would be bizarre for me to retain and attempt to defend some alternative theory which more comfortably fits my limited knowledge. How could I challenge a prevailing theory if I do not thoroughly understand it? It would be just plain silly -- but that is precisely what you are doing!

That's not true. I simply lack belief is some form of mythical "dark energy'. I'm sure we are fundamentally unaware of the sum total of energy inside the universe, but it has nothing to do with "dark energy", just "human ignorance". This crew won't even accept the fundamental principles of physic and electrical engineering. What hope do they have of "understanding" an electric universe with that attitude? Everything they don't don't "understand" the chalk up to what Alfven called "pseudoscience", or some mythical form of matter or energy. The whole thing reeks of "religion" and requires absolute faith in the "unseen" and some bizarre emotional need to put the magnetic cart before the electric horse.

Sorry PS, I really wish I shared you "faith" in mainstream theory, but the more papers I read, the less "faith"" I have in any of their impotent forms of matter and energy. Our ignorance is what makes most of the universe "dark", not mythical forms of matter and energy. We don't even apply the physics we *DO* understand properly to objects in space yet. What's the point then of making up stuff on a whim and slapping on some math?
 
OK.


Again, I didn't say the laws of physics break down. I said our understanding of them does. The same is true of black holes by the way. Our laws of physics we have are based on what we can observe (and to a certain extent limits on what we cannot observe eg we model the electron as a point particle but don't know this for certain, only that any structure must smaller than a certain scale).

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/How_Much_Mass_Makes_A_Black_Hole_999.html

Well, i suppose that statement is supported by recent discoveries.

What we don't have is a unified theory of everything. So certain laws are only applicable on certain scales. Now two of the cornerstones of modern physics are our theory of the very small (broadly speaking that's quantum mechanics) and our theory of gravity (ie General Relativity). But gravity is weak, so we can only observe its effects on large scales.

IMO that's not true. We can observe the effect of gravity up close and personal. What you're essentially doing from my perspective is "imagining" that gravity is the only relevant known force in the universe and 'assuming' all events in space relate directly and only to "gravity". I don't see any evidence from experiments on Earth that gravity is repulsive. I can't jump off the planet, can you? What makes you think acceleration of objects is even remotely related to gravity theory in the first place?

In that sense our theories of QM and GR are completely separate and in ordinary every day life (and most other situation for that matter) this doesn't matter. The problems occur when we talk about situations where the two regimes overlap. This is what happens with black holes.....

Yes, but that tends to be where particle physics theory meets cosmology theory and there are "subjective" interpretations involved. Not everyone believes that so called 'black holes' possess infinite density for instance. This leads to a variety of theories about the nature of very heavy massive objects and new "discoveries" are happening all the time.

and its what happens when we study the evolution of the universe and go back about 13.7 billion years.

Why just 13.7? Why not 49.88? What's that emotional attachment to 13.7 all about?

We find that the two theories aren't compatible is these extreme situations: that's what I mean by our understanding of the laws of physics breaks down. Nevertheless, QM and GR do an extremely good job where relevant in all other situations (that I'm aware of at least).

I'm still not personally convinced that our understanding is actually correct in the first place. These ideas are predicated upon assumptions about the nature of neutron degenerate matter for example. They are predicated upon a belief in an "infinite" density type of object. That's a mathematical limit, not necessarily a physical reality.

Sure. Although you have to be careful to distinguish between popular science explanations for the layman (where the words used may be less precise) and technical explanations for the specialist. As for the cause? Well we don't know, though some are happy to speculate. But the Big Bang theory (or rather LCDM) is a model of the evolution of the universe after the "bang". This is directly analogous to biological evolution.

Does biological evolutionary theory require faith in dark energy, dark matter or inflation? I think that's a very poor analogy actually, but...

In biological evolution, the question of where the first life came from falls out of the theories remit. In cosmic evolution, the the question of where the bang from is out of the theories remit.

In this case however you're A) leaving out the hardest part from the standpoint of physics. How did all that mass get moving from condensed gravity well formed from all that radically condensed mass and energy? HOw Condensed was it? When did the Higg's particle form? How large was the universe? If you're going to ask questions, do you think you should be looking for actual physical explanations about your presumed "bang"? How do you even know for instance that all matter and energy was even located within say a billion light years of one another or that it went "bang" at all?
 
PS, look at it this way.....

Suppose you and I lived in the past we both "lost our faith" in the whole concept of an Earth centric universe. Suppose people kept handing you and me paper after paper after paper on planetary epicycles to "prove to us" that their beautiful Earth centric theory "predicts" all the movements of the sun and planets? Would you still simply 'have faith" in their math only because you and I don't really have a "better" explanation just yet in terms of the math?
 
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Your response is not relevant to the issue.

Of course it is. You've failed to demonstrate a single empirical cause/effect link between an observation of constant expansion and/or acceleration and your mythical forms of energies. You *ASSUMED* it. Demonstrate it here and now. Can you do that, yes or no?

If your mythical energy is a no show on Earth, why should I believe it shows up "somewhere out there"? Where do I get some "dark energy"? Just because there is a constant in GR (which Einstein set to zero), it does not give you the privilege of stuffing magic into that constant. If you can show a cause/effect link between the movement of matter and your mythical energies, let's see it here and now. If not, I think you just made them up in your head like any good believer in "metaphysics". Lots of folks "have faith" in numerology and swear by it. It doesn't mean I agree with their math or there use of math, even if there isn't a problem in the actual math and they are "experts" on the maths related to numerology. :)
 
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That's a tall order for someone whose profound ignorance....

At least I admit my own ignorance Mr. Spock. I'd rather just "fess up" than dream up a trio of "invisible friends" so that I can "believe" that I understand how the universe operates. In the end there is nothing wrong with your math nor is there anything wrong with the math related to numerology. Math can be used and abused and that is frequently the case, and it's the case with mainstream theory IMO.

I admit, I am "ignorant" of "dark energy". I've never seen it do anything here on Earth. Have you? I'm ignorant of 'inflation". I've never seen any of it's "properties" demonstrated in a lab. Have you? IMO the only difference between us is that I "lack faith" in your math, not because there is anything wrong with math in general, but because you're *abusing* it IMO. I simply lack belief that my ignorance is going to go away by "having faith" in something called "dark energy". All I see is a pattern of acceleration at best case. I see no link between that observation and mythical forms of energy.

As sol invictus has explained, empirical evidence (e) and (f) direct us[ to the accepted value for the cosmological constant (d) introduced by Einstein (a) and supported independently by both mathematics (b) and other science (c). To reject that chain of reasoning would be unscientific.

Just because there is room for a constant doesn't mean that constant is related to "dark" stuff. You made that up! There is still no empirical (demonstrated) cause/effect link between you mythical energies and expansion or acceleration of objects of mass. I can show you empirical experiments where EM fields expand and accelerate plasma. Where's your demonstration of concept?
 
No idea what you're talking about. You've already agreed that "the CC...has an effect on the universe at large scales".

You've not shown any cause/effect link between that 'constant" and inflation or dark energy. Even if the universe expands and accelerates, what does that have to do with your invisible forms of energy? Where's the empirical demonstration of concept?

It's not necessarily the concept of an expanding and even an accelerating universe that I disagree with. I simply 'lack belief" that "dark energy" or inflation, or mythical forms of matter have anything at all to do with it. I can make EM fields accelerate ordinary matter here and now in the lab. Can your imagined energy do that, yes or no?
 
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PS, look at it this way.....

Suppose you and I lived in the past we both "lost our faith" in the whole concept of an Earth centric universe. Suppose people kept handing you and me paper after paper after paper on planetary epicycles to "prove to us" that their beautiful Earth centric theory "predicts" all the movements of the sun and planets? Would you still simply 'have faith" in their math only because you and I don't really have a "better" explanation just yet in terms of the math?

This discussion has nothing to do with "faith." We live in a world with thousands of physicists and cosmologists who are constantly checking, cross-checking and rechecking their theories and observations. They are not part-time enthusiasts whose real job is salesman or computer programmer; they are professionals, with many years of training in the areas we are discussing here. Every one of them would cherish the opportunity of being credited with having contributed or changed something important in their field. Yes, history has shown that new ideas are sometimes difficult to accept for those dedicated to an existing dogma, but science moves on and better models ultimately prevail.

When you can tell me convincingly that you have a basic understanding of the meaning of all the terms in the following equation and are capable of discussing its implications, then you will have some credibility -- otherwise you remain nothing more than a persistent crank!

[latex] R_\mu_\nu - \dfrac{1}{2}g_\mu_\nu R + g_\mu_\nu\Lambda= \dfrac{8\pi G}{c^4}T_\mu_\nu [/latex]
 
What you fail to realize is that without an understanding of the mathematics, you have no basis with which to comprehend, analyze and critique modern cosmological theory.


Criticizing a theory, evolution for example, or defending some crackpot conjecture, creationism for example, without the ability to even remotely understand the relevant math and science, or without the ability to comprehend what constitutes objective empirical evidence, is exactly how religious fundamentalists operate. If they do know better, it's outright dishonesty, a lie. If they don't, it's blind faith supported by ignorance.

Michael has repeatedly failed to demonstrate that he possesses the qualifications to understand math at a level necessary to balance his own checkbook or to be capable of applying the scientific method beyond the level of a fourth grade child. Consequently any claim he makes about understanding the math and science relevant to any astrophysical or cosmological theory is a religious position built on a foundation of faith and constructed from incredulity and ignorance. Now if he actually knows better, and there's no evidence to suggest that he does, the evangelizing is a lie. Either way it is certainly more akin to religion than to science.

It would be bizarre for me to retain and attempt to defend some alternative theory which more comfortably fits my limited knowledge. How could I challenge a prevailing theory if I do not thoroughly understand it? It would be just plain silly -- but that is precisely what you are doing!


And it is indeed bizarre.
 
It's not that I don't understand the math, it's that I believe the math is contrived, much like the math's related to planetary epicycles when people believed the Earth was the center of the universe. Math alone tells us nothing. Without physics, empirical physics, those maths really mean nothing. They are essentially slapping math to the side of a metaphysical pig, much like numerology. Our human ignorance should not be "covered up" by "making up" stories about magical forms of energy and matter that have never been seen on Earth. That's pure rubbish with nice looking math.
It's true, however, that you don't understand the math. If you understood the math, you wouldn't have to pack so much nonsense into your posts:
...mythical...mythical...magic...magical...Priest of the religion...mythical...religious deity...sinners...clergy...rationalization...belief...mythical...pseudoscience...mythical...religion...absolute faith...faith...faith...mythical...making up stuff on a whim and slapping on some math?



IMO that's not true. We can observe the effect of gravity up close and personal.
You're talking about Newtonian gravity. Tubbythin was talking about general relativity. It's a fact that differences between general relativity and Newtonian gravity don't matter very much at the distances, speeds, and densities we encounter on earth. General relativity has been demonstrated on earth by a few extremely precise experiments, but the difference between GR and Newtonian gravity seldom if ever matters for the consumer products that rule your cockamamie notion of science. (The original motivation for taking account of general relativity in GPS was military, and I suspect GR wouldn't have been necessary for civilian applications of GPS.)

What makes you think acceleration of objects is even remotely related to gravity theory in the first place?
:eye-poppi

Not everyone believes that so called 'black holes' possess infinite density for instance.
As has been explained to you in several recent posts, most of us do not believe black holes possess infinite density. You, Michael Mozina, are the person who's been promoting the idea of infinite density.

Your promotion of that straw man looks dishonest, but I'm willing to believe you are truly incapable of understanding the mathematical fact that the singularities of general relativity lie outside the spacetime manifold.

Why just 13.7? Why not 49.88? What's that emotional attachment to 13.7 all about?
It's an attachment to empiricism, not an emotional attachment. The best estimates for the age of the universe have changed during the 40 years I've been paying attention. We don't throw a fit every time the estimate is improved by new empirical evidence.

They are predicated upon a belief in an "infinite" density type of object.
You're wrong about that. Neither general relativity nor cosmology involves objects with infinite density.

How do you even know for instance that all matter and energy was even located within say a billion light years of one another or that it went "bang" at all?
What part of Rμν-½Rgμν+Λgμν=8πTμν (in geometrized units) don't you understand?

That's a rhetorical question, of course. The point is that you claim to accept that equation, but you have been unable to describe solutions for that equation that are compatible with empirical observations and do not involve a big bang.

Just because there is a constant in GR (which Einstein set to zero), it does not give you the privilege of stuffing magic into that constant.
Actually, Einstein set that constant to zero before he set it to nonzero. Einstein eventually set that constant back to zero, although he knew that a zero value for that constant, when combined with empirical evidence he accepted, implies a big bang.

At least I admit my own ignorance Mr. Spock....invisible friends...believe...numerology...lack faith...belief...having faith...mythical...You made that up!...mythical...
:vulcan:
 
IMO that's not true. We can observe the effect of gravity up close and personal.
Ok. Give me a single "up close and personaal" incidence of the combined use of quantum mechanics and general relativity.

What you're essentially doing from my perspective is "imagining" that gravity is the only relevant known force in the universe and 'assuming' all events in space relate directly and only to "gravity".
Not in the slightest. We know of four forces. The strong, the weak, EM and gravity. Now the strong and weak are very very short range acting over scales of ~10-15 m and less. So we can ignore them for the most part. And it is precisely because our understanding of EM is so unbelievably precise that we can also rule out the effects of EM on the largest scale. In fact it is difficult to see how it could be any less of an assumption short of ruling out a fifth unknown force too.

I don't see any evidence from experiments on Earth that gravity is repulsive. I can't jump off the planet, can you? What makes you think acceleration of objects is even remotely related to gravity theory in the first place?
:jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :eye-poppi :jaw-dropp

Yes, but that tends to be where particle physics theory meets cosmology theory and there are "subjective" interpretations involved. Not everyone believes that so called 'black holes' possess infinite density for instance. This leads to a variety of theories about the nature of very heavy massive objects and new "discoveries" are happening all the time.
I would be inclined to think most relevant people don't actually think black holes have infinite density, but I qouldn't swear by it.

Why just 13.7? Why not 49.88? What's that emotional attachment to 13.7 all about?
Because that's where several independent calculation put the big bang. Since our calculations of what is going on break down just before we get there, it's incredibly difficult to make any reliable judgements about what happened before or whether there was a "before".

I'm still not personally convinced that our understanding is actually correct in the first place. These ideas are predicated upon assumptions about the nature of neutron degenerate matter for example. They are predicated upon a belief in an "infinite" density type of object. That's a mathematical limit, not necessarily a physical reality.
Huh? This just doesn't make the least bit of sense. Nothing is predicated upon a belief in an infinite density type of object. That's pretty much the whole point! When things get very very dense we don't know what happens that's where things break down. Nobody here is asserting anything about infinite density objects accept you. You're asserting that "we" demand they exist (or you seem to be) which we aren't.

Does biological evolutionary theory require faith in dark energy, dark matter or inflation? I think that's a very poor analogy actually, but...
You seem to have had a basic breakdown in reading comprehension. The analogy with biological evolution had nothing to do with the veracity of either theory and everything to do with your/creationist attempts to demand from the theories which don't fall in to their remit.

In this case however you're A) leaving out the hardest part from the standpoint of physics. How did all that mass get moving from condensed gravity well formed from all that radically condensed mass and energy?
How did we get from non-life to life?

HOw Condensed was it?
We can't tell you because we don't know. Because the laws (our understanding of them really) break down when we head back into the first second or so. Someone somewhere has probably set a lower limit on it. But I couldn't tell you off hand.

When did the Higg's particle form?
It would have been gone within the first second. You can get this from the Boltzmann distribution plus the mass of the Higgs.

How large was the universe?
I don't think we will ever be able to answer that question, not unless we live in a close universe which it doesn't look like we do.

If you're going to ask questions, do you think you should be looking for actual physical explanations about your presumed "bang"?
I don't see you rejecting the theory of evolution because it doesn't describe where life came from.

How do you even know for instance that all matter and energy was even located within say a billion light years of one another or that it went "bang" at all?
These are pretty meaningless questions. The first one because it demands knowledge of the whole universe, not just the visible part of it. The latter because... you seem to be taking things a bit to literally.
 
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/How_Much_Mass_Makes_A_Black_Hole_999.html

Well, i suppose that statement is supported by recent discoveries.
Yes it is - if you read and understand the news article.
It is a possible change in the upper mass limit of stars that form black holes. It is not a change in the upper limit of the mass of black holes.

Not everyone believes that so called 'black holes' possess infinite density for instance.

You ignorance is showing again, Michael Mozina.
  • Black holes are actually called black holes.
  • Black holes do not have infinite density. If the singularity at their center exists then it has infinite density. Not everyone believes that singularities exist.
  • Black holes do not need a singularity to exist!
    All they need is enough mass in a small enough volume, e.g. ~4 million solar masses in a volume that fits inside the orbit of Mercury (Sag A*).
This leads to a variety of theories about the nature of very heavy massive objects and new "discoveries" are happening all the time.
This is a bad thing how?

They are predicated upon a belief in an "infinite" density type of object. That's a mathematical limit, not necessarily a physical reality.
QM and GR do not depend on an infinite density type of object. The existsence of singulatities states that GR is undefined at that point.
 
Empirical Evidence for Dark Energy III

Where's the empirical link between your impotent gods and expansion or acceleration?
  1. Observational Evidence from Supernovae for an Accelerating Universe and a Cosmological Constant; Riess, et al., The Astronomical Journal 116(3): 1009-1038, September 1998.
  2. Measurements of Omega and Lambda from 42 High-Redshift Supernovae; Perlmutter, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 571(2): 565-586, June 1999.
  3. First-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Determination of Cosmological Parameters; Spergel, et al., The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series 148(1): 175-194, September 2003.
  4. Type Ia Supernovae at z > 1 from the Hubble Space Telescope: Evidence for Past Deceleration and Constraints on the Dark Energy Equation of State; Riess, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 607(2): 665-687, June 2004.
  5. The Supernova Legacy Survey: measurement of ΩM, ΩΛ and w from the first year data set; Astier, et al., Astronomy and Astrophysics 447(1): February III 2006.
  6. Three-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Implications for Cosmology; Spergel, et al., The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series 170(2): 377-408, June 2007.
  7. Observational Constraints on the Nature of Dark Energy: First Results from the ESSENCE Supernova Survey; Wood-Vasey, et al., The Astrophysical Journal 666(2): 694-715, September 2007.
  8. Seven-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Cosmological Interpretation; Komatsu, et al., preprint submitted to The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series, version 2 dated 12 February 2010.
These listed and the many thousand citations thereto.
Every single one of those papers *assumes* a cause/effect link. Show me in the lab. I can easily show you a cause/effect connection between EM fields and expansion and acceleration in the lab. You can't even produce any dark energy, let alone get it to "accelerate' anything in a controlled demonstration of concept.
Your response is not relevant to the issue. You specifically asked for empirical evidence and that is exactly what I provided. If you wanted something else you should have asked for something else. As far as I am concerned, I provided you with empirical evidence. If you think I have not, then say so explicitly, and explain why the evidence I provided is not empirical.
Of course it is. You've failed to demonstrate a single empirical cause/effect link between an observation of constant expansion and/or acceleration and your mythical forms of energies.
Factually false statement. Empirical cause/effect relationship is in fact demonstrated in the papers linked above.
You *ASSUMED* it.
Factually false statement. Empirical cause/effect relationship is in fact demonstrated in the papers linked above.
Demonstrate it here and now. Can you do that, yes or no
Already done. See above.
 
You've not shown any cause/effect link between that 'constant" and inflation or dark energy. Even if the universe expands and accelerates, what does that have to do with your invisible forms of energy? Where's the empirical demonstration of concept?

Maybe you should ask another poster in this thread - someone named Michael Mozina - who recently agreed that "the CC...has an effect on the universe at large scales".
 
QM and GR do not depend on an infinite density type of object. The existsence of singulatities states that GR is undefined at that point.
That should read: The existence of a singularity in a solution in GR means that solution of GR is undefined at that point. That is generally taken to be a missing part of the theory, e.g. GR ignores quantum mechanical effects that dominate at small scales.

In addition:
QM itself does not have any singularities. Quantum field theories like QED do have infinities in them. But renormalization "fixes" these and has become a criteria for valid (or at least usable) quantum field theories.
 
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Maybe you should ask another poster in this thread - someone named Michael Mozina - who recently agreed that "the CC...has an effect on the universe at large scales".

What is the cause of the CC sol? I'm looking for an empirical *cause* that can be demonstrated to have a direct effect on material objects.

An EM field can certainly cause a field of plasma to "expand" and even "accelerate". So can external matter ( to that field of matter in question). These are "possible" empirical candidates to explain that CC. What are you claiming is the empirical *CAUSE* of the constant and why?
 
This discussion has nothing to do with "faith."

Of course it does. If I don't "have faith" that "dark energy" can cause material objects to expand/accelerate, you've got no way to demonstrate your claim in a controlled experiment. You can't even show a "test of concept", let alone make an entire field of matter accelerate in due to "dark energy". The whole claim is based on "faith" not empirical physics. If you claimed EM fields caused plasma to "expand" or "accelerate" that would not be an "extraordinary" claim, its an empirical cause/effect relationship that can be demonstrate right now, on earth, in the standard empirical manner. You invisible forms of matter and energy are a complete no show in the lab and inflation will *forever* be a no show in the lab. Dark energy such a wussy type of energy, it's "impotent" on Earth. The whole thing is a house of cards that is predicated on pure faith in the unseen (in the lab).

As for the rest of your commentary, it's a bit like claiming that if I only understood the maths epicycles better, I'd wouldn't be such a crackpot to believe that the Earth isn't the center of the universe. That's exactly your logic PS.
 
It's true, however, that you don't understand the math. If you understood the math, you wouldn't have to pack so much nonsense into your posts:
In the case of "pseudoscience" those were Alfven's words on the subject his entire career. As for the rest of it, well, it's all true, it's just that you don't like it when I point out the flaws in your faith based religion. When have you seen 'dark energy" cause acceleration of material objects on Earth? When do you expect to see it demonstrated? One year? Ten years? Your lifetime?

You're talking about Newtonian gravity. Tubbythin was talking about general relativity.

I'm talking about the "real" and "tangible" and "empical' gravity that I experience personally every single day. You're talking about math formulas. When was the last time gravity allowed you to accelerate off the planet?

It's a fact that differences between general relativity and Newtonian gravity don't matter very much at the distances, speeds, and densities we encounter on earth. General relativity has been demonstrated on earth by a few extremely precise experiments, but the difference between GR and Newtonian gravity seldom if ever matters for the consumer products that rule your cockamamie notion of science.

Which ever math formula you use is fine by me because I can experience gravity here and now and compare you math to real physical experiments and real control mechanisms. Compare and contrast that to the dead inflation concept. It's not only gone, it's long gone.

As has been explained to you in several recent posts, most of us do not believe black holes possess infinite density.

Then you do not believe in a "singularity" or a "point" because you can't achieve such a thing without achieving infinite density as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You, Michael Mozina, are the person who's been promoting the idea of infinite density.

Oh no, not me.

Your promotion of that straw man looks dishonest, but I'm willing to believe you are truly incapable of understanding the mathematical fact that the singularities of general relativity lie outside the spacetime manifold.

Nothing inside our physical universe lies "outside" of the spacetime manifold, it continues to have a direct and measurable effect on the spacetime manifold. There is no such thing as a "singularity" because to achieve that you would need to achieve infinite density of matter. It's never going to happen.

It's an attachment to empiricism, not an emotional attachment.

No, it's a "scientific" attachment. I'm emotionally attached to things like love and less tangible stuff.

The best estimates for the age of the universe have changed during the 40 years I've been paying attention. We don't throw a fit every time the estimate is improved by new empirical evidence.

No, you throw a metaphysical birthday party and give birth to another metaphysical creation, in this case "dark energy". Essentially anything you guys don't really understand and can't explain is "dark". The term seems to relate more to our human ignorance and less to any actual "property" of the energy or matter in question.

You're wrong about that. Neither general relativity nor cosmology involves objects with infinite density.

I agree, which is why I don't believe in "singularities". Enough compacted mass might create something like an event horizon, but I don't believe anything achieves infinite density, the "point" of a singularity, or resides *outside* of the manifold.

Actually, Einstein set that constant to zero before he set it to nonzero. Einstein eventually set that constant back to zero, although he knew that a zero value for that constant, when combined with empirical evidence he accepted, implies a big bang.

Actually it simply implies expansion (for the moment). The concept of a "bang" presumes an unchanging process over time.

The bottom line Mr. Spock is that GR is not now and never has been dependent upon "dark energy", "inflation" or "exotic matter". If and when you can demonstrate an empirical link, here an now, between the movements of matter and your mythical forms of matter and energy, *THEN* I'll be happy to let you stuff them into a GR formula. Until you can show an empirical cause/effect relationship between GR and those mythical entities, I can only assume you "made them up" and they have about as much material "realness" as magic. You might make magic "fit" inside a GR formula, but waving at the sky with such a formula is utterly pointless. IMO that is also the case with your hypothetical forms of matter and energy.
 
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That should read: The existence of a singularity in a solution in GR means that solution of GR is undefined at that point.

Which should be your first clue that it's never going to happen. The only way to achieve a singular "point" is to achieve infinite mass density. Forgetaboutit.
 
Ok. Give me a single "up close and personaal" incidence of the combined use of quantum mechanics and general relativity.

I can lay in my lawn chair in the sun and have an up close and personal experience GR and QM.

[QUOTE[Not in the slightest. We know of four forces. The strong, the weak, EM and gravity. Now the strong and weak are very very short range acting over scales of ~10-15 m and less. So we can ignore them for the most part. And it is precisely because our understanding of EM is so unbelievably precise that we can also rule out the effects of EM on the largest scale.[/QUOTE]

IMO you have that exactly backwards. It's the mainstream's irrational aversion to all things electrical in space that precludes them from ruling out anything at this early juncture. The mainstream can't even explain solar wind. It points to magnetic fields in plasma and calls it "magnetic yada yada yada" instead of "electromagnetic" yada yada, as though those magnetic fields exist by themselves in the absence of current flow. It's absurd how backwards the mainstream approaches the application of MHD theory to objects in space. They are still peddling what Alfven called "pseudoscience" his entire career and they ignore his circuit orientation to describe events in space. It's precisely this sort of complete ignorance that prevents the mainstream from even honestly *TRYING* to explain the process via empirical physics. Magnetic fields do not create themselves.

In fact it is difficult to see how it could be any less of an assumption short of ruling out a fifth unknown force too.

Why not make it a dozen? What's the point of 'making up" stuff in the first place? An honest "I don't know" used to be enough. Now we dress up metaphysical pigs in mathematical blankets and hoc it as "science".


Because that's where several independent calculation put the big bang.

Alfven's "bang" didn't condense that far. What makes you think it happened all at once anyway? How do you know that it wasn't more akin to a high speed "collision" between preexisting matter and antimatter?

Since our calculations of what is going on break down just before we get there, it's incredibly difficult to make any reliable judgements about what happened before or whether there was a "before".

How close do you think you're going to get to that critical point? What's the trigger or condition that makes your calculations unreliable?

I'll come back to the rest of your post but first I need to start a pot of coffee. :)
 
Which should be your first clue that it's never going to happen. The only way to achieve a singular "point" is to achieve infinite mass density. Forgetaboutit.

Here is an excellent example of what I have been trying to tell you. Your ignorance of mathematics is showing again. A singularity is a point where some mathematical entity is not defined. It does not mean anything is necessarily infinite.
 
Yes it is - if you read and understand the news article.
It is a possible change in the upper mass limit of stars that form black holes. It is not a change in the upper limit of the mass of black holes.

From my perspective the interesting part is that the mass of the neutron star seems to confirm that concept of neutron repulsion very nicely.

  • Black holes are actually called black holes.
  • Black holes do not have infinite density. If the singularity at their center exists then it has infinite density. Not everyone believes that singularities exist.
  • Black holes do not need a singularity to exist!
    All they need is enough mass in a small enough volume, e.g. ~4 million solar masses in a volume that fits inside the orbit of Mercury (Sag A*).

OMG. For once I actually find myself in agreement with you. :) What day is this? Let me mark that on my calendar. :)

This is a bad thing how?

It's not.

QM and GR do not depend on an infinite density type of object. The existsence of singulatities states that GR is undefined at that point.

Yes, which is why I believe it's not a physical possibility just a(nother) mathematical enigma.
 
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Here is an excellent example of what I have been trying to tell you. Your ignorance of mathematics is showing again. A singularity is a point where some mathematical entity is not defined. It does not mean anything is necessarily infinite.

The smaller the object we try to create out of that mass, the more densely packed the mass must become. We can pack it tightly into degenerate neutron material, and perhaps something like a quark star, but the only way to shrink the function to a 'point" is to achieve infinite density of the mass inside that object. It's never going to happen.
 
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Of course it does. If I don't "have faith" that "dark energy" can cause material objects to expand/accelerate, you've got no way to demonstrate your claim in a controlled experiment. You can't even show a "test of concept", let alone make an entire field of matter accelerate in due to "dark energy". The whole claim is based on "faith" not empirical physics. If you claimed EM fields caused plasma to "expand" or "accelerate" that would not be an "extraordinary" claim, its an empirical cause/effect relationship that can be demonstrate right now, on earth, in the standard empirical manner. You invisible forms of matter and energy are a complete no show in the lab and inflation will *forever* be a no show in the lab. Dark energy such a wussy type of energy, it's "impotent" on Earth. The whole thing is a house of cards that is predicated on pure faith in the unseen (in the lab).
The existence of dark energy is no more based on faith than was the existence of the planet Neptune, when it was hypothesized using mathematics and astronomical observations.

As for the rest of your commentary, it's a bit like claiming that if I only understood the maths epicycles better, I'd wouldn't be such a crackpot to believe that the Earth isn't the center of the universe. That's exactly your logic PS.
Epicycles were abandoned because the Copernican model produced results that were a better fit to observations. Later Kepler produced an even better model. Both of those scientists understand epicycles and their flaws quite well, which is why they were motivated to produce better models. Do you see observational flaws in the dark energy model that you can eliminate with your superior model?
 
The smaller the object we try to create out of that mass, the more densely packed the mass must become. We can pack it tightly into degenerate neutron material, and perhaps something like a quark star, but the only way to shrink the function to a 'point" is to achieve infinite density of the mass inside that object. It's never going to happen.

You just don't get it!!! The mathematics produces the singularity which renders the physical reality undefined (indeterminate, unknown). How else can one say this to break through to you?
 
The existence of dark energy is no more based on faith than was the existence of the planet Neptune, when it was hypothesized using mathematics and astronomical observations.

That's a terrible analogy IMO. We live on a planet in orbit around a sun. We know that there are other planets in the same solar system. Proposing the existence of one more planet is not an "extraordinary" claim. No new type of matter is required. No new type of energy is necessary. Nothing particularly "exotic" is being proposed that can't be "seen" or 'found" eventually. Claiming my invisible friend did it *IS* an extraordinary claim. I would necessarily need to show a cause/effect relationship between my invisible friend and the observation in question. These are *VERY* different propositions.

Epicycles were abandoned because the Copernican model produced results that were a better fit to observations. Later Kepler produced an even better model. Both of those scientists understand epicycles and their flaws quite well, which is why they were motivated to produce better models. Do you see observational flaws in the dark energy model that you can eliminate with your superior model?

No, I see significant benefits of an a PC/EU model in describing events inside this solar solar atmosphere, the solar system and inside this galaxy. It's therefore only logical to apply those concepts to the cosmos as a whole. I may not (yet) have a better mathematical model of the whole universe (although some PC theorists have put forth mathematical models), but just realizing the old model is hopelessly broken is half the battle IMO.
 
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You just don't get it!!! The mathematics produces the singularity which renders the physical reality undefined (indeterminate, unknown). How else can one say this to break through to you?

I get the mathematical concept PS, but I don't think you get the physics part yet. The mathematics is just an abstraction. There is a "physical reality" (particle physical reality) that must also be considered. The point of a singularity is undefined, and/but also utterly inapplicable to physical reality. Nothing will ever achieve infinite density, therefore no object made of mass can ever become a "singularity". It might achieve a "high density' and become a very small object, but the radius can never become zero without the density reaching infinity.
 

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