ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bible , evidence , new testament

Closed Thread
Old 23rd September 2010, 03:38 PM   #15521
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,807
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So older research is wrong research by definition in your mind.
Alchemy much?
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 03:39 PM   #15522
Lucian
Illuminator
 
Lucian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,107
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So older research is wrong research by definition in your mind.
Not necessarily, of course, but older research in any field is often superseded or modified by newer findings.
Lucian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 03:43 PM   #15523
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,995
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So older research is wrong research by definition in your mind.
Of course not, but if newer research (new information and more accurate) and refutes older research (as is the case with the bible), than yes.

Out of curiosity, why are you ignoring my link?
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 03:49 PM   #15524
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 37,155
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So older research is wrong research by definition in your mind.
No, but it is wrong if new information has come to light which shows the older research to be incorrect.

ETA: Yet another example of the rule of "So...".
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 03:52 PM   #15525
Lucian
Illuminator
 
Lucian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,107
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Of course not, but if newer research (new information and more accurate) and refutes older research (as is the case with the bible), than yes.

Out of curiosity, why are you ignoring my link?
Because he has a really slow connection, and non-biblical/non-apologist links are notorious for loading slowly.

Because there are so many other questions/comments that he has to respond to with carefully thought out replies copy and paste jobs.

Because the Bible told him so.
Lucian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 03:55 PM   #15526
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,068
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
List all the people in the NT you believe are not real and why?

All of them, and here is why. Several of the characters that appear in the New Testament are obviously based on historical people, but the portrayals in the New Testament are clearly influenced by the biases of the authors as well as those who changed what the authors wrote (intentionally or not). For example, DOC, how much do you know about the references to Pontius Pilate outside of the bible? Was he considered a "good guy" by the citizens in his district? By the residents (and yes, there was a huge difference between the two groups at the time)? Does it match the version of Pilate as shown in the various gospels?

The same kind of argument can be made regarding the Herods as well. Several years ago, National Geographic magazine had a wonderful article about the first king Herod, the one best known from the birth narratives regarding Jesus. (Surprise! There is no mention of him ordering the deaths of infant boys.) You will be surprised at how differently his rule appears to historians than it does to the authors of the NT.

So extending this logically, even if I grant you that Jesus is based on one or more real people, they didn't resemble the various Jesi in the various books of the New Testament very much, if at all. Heck, just compare the Paul of the author of Luke and Acts with the Paul that appears in his letters.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 04:12 PM   #15527
welshdean
6 NATIONS 2016
-MORAL VICTORS-
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye
Posts: 2,908
DOC, as essentially a lurker to this thread (I may have posted once or twice), I'm inclined to think that using your evidence, Harry J. Potter is more truthier than Jesus H. Christ, don't think I'm being cute here 'cause I'm not, I've invested ten days of research in this.
My analyzation is this:

HJP wore specs; how embarrassing is that?
JHC didn't wear specs, did he?

HJP was born and lived in England, we know his place of birth, where he was raised (including the street name and number), how he was raised, his schooling and who he fell in love with.
JHC needed a special code written in the bible to give us cryptic clues as to who he fell in love with, be the recipient male or female.

HJP has changed the world, there are buildings, edifices and 'city size' parks in his honour that people of every faith flock to and queue for in their millions every year.
JHC can't boast the same 'homage' numbers as HJP.

I've actually seen, met and shook hands with HJP before he gave my daughter an autograph.
I used to talk to JHC, every single day, for years and years, but he was too full of himself to reply or even show his face, never mind respond. Maybe, that's why HJP is on the front page of 'Hello!' and JHC isn't.

HJP did indeed rid the world of evil.
JHC left it for us to deal with, and we don't got wands!!!
__________________
Pauline: Mickey's asked me to marry him, and I've said yes.
Ross: You and Mickey?
Pauline: Yes.
Ross: The lesbian and the monkey. Sounds like one of Aesop's fables.

Last edited by welshdean; 23rd September 2010 at 04:14 PM. Reason: Housekeeping!
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 04:20 PM   #15528
DOC
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
Where's your evidence? The burden is on you to provide it. You haven't presented a shred of evidence outside of the Bible or the belief of your fellow Believers...
You obviously have not read all of this thead because I have pointed out the following which is from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1 of this thread. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

Last edited by DOC; 23rd September 2010 at 04:22 PM.
DOC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 04:26 PM   #15529
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,037
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So older research is wrong research by definition in your mind.
Not at all. Older research is supplemented or superseded by more recent research.

Do you have a problem with that, DOC?
__________________
"Want to debate effectively in any format? Pay attention to your critics" -JayUtah

Last edited by John Jones; 23rd September 2010 at 04:28 PM.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 04:40 PM   #15530
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,037
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So older research is wrong research by definition in your mind.

Are you asking me a question or making a claim or something?

__________________
"Want to debate effectively in any format? Pay attention to your critics" -JayUtah
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 04:47 PM   #15531
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,037
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You obviously have not read all of this thead because I have pointed out the following which is from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1 of this thread. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

DOC. Go back to the beginning of this thread. Look at the title.

You haven't presented evidence for why we know the new testament authors told the truth.

Don't let your two-year failure stop you now!
__________________
"Want to debate effectively in any format? Pay attention to your critics" -JayUtah
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 05:36 PM   #15532
RobDegraves
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 787
Quote:
Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus
Let's see... Josephus only mentions what was believed about Jesus, and certainly not from a first person vantage. He makes no mention of the apostles nor of Mary, etc.

Tacitus mentions Jesus even less. All that you can derive from Tacitus was that Christians existed and believed in Jesus.

Celsus wrote over a century after Jesus, and only mentions what is believed about Him.

All of these authors only prove what is already known. That Christians existed in the 1st century AD.


(I normally lurk but since this is history and more or less in my field, I thought I would respond).
RobDegraves is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 08:27 PM   #15533
Resume
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,798
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You obviously have not read all of this thead because I have pointed out the following which is from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1 of this thread. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.
None of these are facts. They are assertions
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 10:20 PM   #15534
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,557
Of course, the celebrations of Disappointment Thursday are only a prelude to the Feasting upon the Fallacies that occurs on Dishonest Friday.
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 11:33 PM   #15535
Rincewind
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ankh Morpork/Plymouth, UK
Posts: 7,416
Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
Because he has a really slow connection, and non-biblical/non-apologist links are notorious for loading slowly.
Not just that - just remember how long it took for the Catholic Church to apologise to Galileo....

Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2010, 11:58 PM   #15536
Gandalfs Beard
Graduate Poster
 
Gandalfs Beard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,548
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You obviously have not read all of this thead because I have pointed out the following which is from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1 of this thread. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.
DOC, How many times should I repost the refutations of the works alleged to be that of Josephus, given that they are based on 11th century copies scribed by Christian Monks, and in which Josephus apparently speaks of Christ in a manner that makes Josephus a Christian?

Tacitus and Celsus can only verify that Christians existed, not Jesus.

Phlegon was a second century "historian", who, likewise, can only demonstrate that Christians existed.

Origen was a Third Century Christian Scholar, who, likewise, can only demonstrate that Christians existed.

So, still no evidence for the veracity of NT authors.

GB
__________________
"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."--Bruce Lee

Non-theistic Pagan Agnostic, or Gnostic Agnostic--depending on the day of the week.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--Carl Sagan
Gandalfs Beard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 12:01 AM   #15537
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,068
Originally Posted by RobDegraves View Post
Let's see... Josephus only mentions what was believed about Jesus, and certainly not from a first person vantage. He makes no mention of the apostles nor of Mary, etc.

Tacitus mentions Jesus even less. All that you can derive from Tacitus was that Christians existed and believed in Jesus.

Celsus wrote over a century after Jesus, and only mentions what is believed about Him.

All of these authors only prove what is already known. That Christians existed in the 1st century AD.


(I normally lurk but since this is history and more or less in my field, I thought I would respond).

Welcome! Judging by your join date, you certainly are a dedicated lurker.

And yes, DOC has had it shown to him several times that the only evidence shown so far has all been hearsay, but it certainly can't hurt to reiterate the point.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 01:37 AM   #15538
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 13,963
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So older research is wrong research by definition in your mind.
Older research can be DISPROVED by newer research. If an older research has not been disproved then it still stand. There are plenty example of stuff which was discovered in the 19th century and still stand (take chemistry for example). And there are even more example of stuff which was only an approximation or was shown to be wrong, with more/better evidence.

The problem for *YOU* is that you want to IGNORE that your old often touted 19th century stuff has been disproved or shown to be incorrect by NEWER research which keep being linked and IGNORED by you.

And we are now again laughing at you for showing your true color when you ignore that intentionally after it has been cited to you many times.
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 01:42 AM   #15539
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,255
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
No way Ramsay believed some of the things Lothian attributed to Ramsay as being his beliefs. Lothian should prove me wrong since he brought in those statements. I'm challenging him to bring in the whole paragraphs of his quote mined passages.
Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Remind me how many times you quote mined Ramsay on the trustworthiness of Luke after I gave you the full quote in context?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So then you don't think Lothian's post 15353 would confuse or possibly grossly misinform someone who is new to the thread?
Only as much as people would be confused or grossly misinformed by your quote mining.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 02:05 AM   #15540
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,255
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
List all the people in the NT you believe are not real and why?

And there were 30 historical figures listed in the NT that can be verified by non-biblical and archaeological sources. That's a lot of nieces, nephews, children, grandchildren, friends, historians etc. that can say: "hey, my father or my grandfather or my childhood friend, or that historical figure, never did what you wrote he did. But there are no reports of the day of any of these people saying "hey, this stuff about that person is not true". Translation: it was true.
Two quick rebuttals showing your translation "it was true" is plainly wrong.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You do not know whether anyone objected. For all we know the original accounts were heavily qualified until the objections were voted out of the fable by committee.

However that is not relevant to this thread. We have no interest in the mundane elements of the bible. We are interested in the sexy bits. Born of a virgin, son of God, Resurrection. The fact that the bible may have elsewhere referred to a real person does not make these fantasies true.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 02:41 AM   #15541
amb
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 20,703
All you ever wanted to know about Ramsey but were afraid to ask.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pd...say_gasque.pdf
amb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 03:45 AM   #15542
Yithmas
Scholar
 
Yithmas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 110
I guess this has been mentioned here before:

Matthew 27.45-53:

"Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"


Why was that
a) not mentioned in the other testaments (I mean, this is one bl**dy shocking event)

b) why is nothing of the sort mentioned in Roman history? I guess this would be something every frigging legionary, centurion, scribe, rabbi, scholar, visiting Martian and space-time hopping member of the Great Race of Yith would take note of, I presume.
A zombie-plague in Jerusalem!

A straight answer, please.
Yithmas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 03:55 AM   #15543
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,187
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Remind me how many times you quote mined Ramsay on the trustworthiness of Luke after I gave you the full quote in context?

DOC has 2,146 posts in this thread.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 04:56 AM   #15544
TSR
Illuminator
 
TSR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,783
Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
I dunno. Aberhaten is a jerk. He was over at my place last night and all he did was winge about the meal that he insisted I cook for him. What a wanker.
.
To be fair, the veggies were *way* overboiled and had lost most of their texture and taste...
.
TSR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 04:59 AM   #15545
GrandMasterFox
Graduate Poster
 
GrandMasterFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,381
Originally Posted by Yithmas View Post
A straight answer, please.
You must be new here....
GrandMasterFox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 05:23 AM   #15546
amb
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 20,703
Yes, I hope yitmas is not holding his/hers breath for a straight answer.
amb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 05:36 AM   #15547
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,255
Originally Posted by amb View Post
All you ever wanted to know about Ramsey but were afraid to ask.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pd...say_gasque.pdf
It is a long read but as far as this thread is concerned the key bits are;
Quote:
The nineteenth-century Ramsay was a very great man; The twentieth-century Ramsay suffered in his scholarly reputation because he allowed himself to be persuaded by Sir William Robertson Nicoll to don the mantle of a popular apologist

The twentieth-century Ramsay tended to be dismissed as unworthy of serious attention by many Neutestamentler who never made themselves acquainted with the solid achievements of the nineteenth-century Ramsay. Ramsay retired in 1911
The book Doc quotes The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament was written in 1915.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 05:38 AM   #15548
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 13,963
Originally Posted by amb View Post
Yes, I hope yitmas is not holding his/hers breath for a straight answer.
Asphyxiation by DOC-ing ?
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 05:41 AM   #15549
kmortis
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Deputy Admin
 
kmortis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka Southern Tier)
Posts: 29,381
Originally Posted by TSR View Post
.
To be fair, the veggies were *way* overboiled and had lost most of their texture and taste...
.
Considering that he demanded that I make him lobster Thermidor, I think I did a damn fine job, overboiled veg or no. Have you ever tried to find fresh lobster in Iowa? It's not easy to do. You have to dig DEEEEEEP to get those bastards to the surface.
__________________
-Aberhaten did it
- "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe
-Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping
- Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm
kmortis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 05:43 AM   #15550
Yithmas
Scholar
 
Yithmas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
You must be new here....
Look at my post-count, I am... (43 at the time of posting this)
Yithmas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 06:07 AM   #15551
kmortis
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Deputy Admin
 
kmortis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka Southern Tier)
Posts: 29,381
Fine, I'll parse it. He'll just ignore it like all the others, but I'll do it for the exercise.
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You obviously have not read all of this thead because I have pointed out the following which is from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1 of this thread. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.
The time frame in which the Gospel stories are set is indeed during the reign of Tiberius. So what? The time frame of Harry Potter is presumably during the reign of Queen Liz II and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas was set during Nixion's presidency. You point is?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
2) He lived a virtuous life.
Hold on a second tiger, just because some character's story is set during the reign of a known ruler, doesn't mean that that character actually exists. Even if we assume that the Big J existed, some of the stories in the propaganda about him isn't favorable.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
3) He was a wonder worker.
Well, here you have two tasks. 1) Define "wonder" and 2) Show that they can actually happen.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.
Ok, I know the difference between a brother and a cousin. Being unclear reduces credibility, not increases.

Even if your sources do agree that he had a male relative, that doesn't mean that either a) existed or b) did the things as described in the NT.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.
Lot of people were acclaimed to be the Messiah. It was a popular title to claim there for a while. Hell, Wikipedia has an entire list of people who claimed to be the Messiah, and we all know how much you like Wikilists.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
Ok, we know that PP lived. We even know that he was Prefect of Jerusalem during the time frame when Jesus was said to do his thang. What we don't know is, if PP actually ever met this Jesus character. There's no extra Biblical contemporary source for that.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.
According to the stories yes. There is no extra-Biblical contemporary sources for it though.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.
As someone else pointed out, how the hell did the Romans miss that? Seriously? An earthquake? Goes unrecoreded by everyone but this obscure Jewish sect? Riiiiiiiiight, what's a cubit?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.
WOOHOO!!!! People believe all manner of crazy stuff. There's a lot of folk out there there that believe that they can find water by holding two sticks.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.
Un-huh...and? So, they were stupid is what you're saying?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.
ALL THE WAY TO ROME?????!!!!!!!oneleventy!!!!!!! Wow...

ETA: Jerusalem to Rome is about 1400 miles. It's a similar distance from Boston, MA to Omaha, NE.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.
Uh-huh and the Jews denied the Roman gods and worshiped Gunderscored. The Zoroastrians denied the Roman gods and worshiped Ahura Mazada. The Gauls denied Roman gods and worshiped...um, well, Gallic gods.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.
No they're not. Granted, there is a little about Christians existing in Josephus (and that's most likely forged), and some others that repeat rumors that they've heard about Christians. There's no contemporary Pliny saying that any of that happened.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.
So...you once again snipped a list from elsewhere, presented it as, excuse the pun, gospel and didn't bother to verify any of it...good, good. Nice to see your usual standards of excellence are being upheld.
__________________
-Aberhaten did it
- "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe
-Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping
- Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

Last edited by kmortis; 24th September 2010 at 06:12 AM. Reason: adding scale
kmortis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 06:15 AM   #15552
kmortis
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Deputy Admin
 
kmortis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka Southern Tier)
Posts: 29,381
Originally Posted by Yithmas View Post
Look at my post-count, I am... (43 at the time of posting this)
If we were allowed to vote on titles for posters, DOC would have Circumloquitor Maximumus.
__________________
-Aberhaten did it
- "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe
-Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping
- Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm
kmortis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 06:43 AM   #15553
GrandMasterFox
Graduate Poster
 
GrandMasterFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,381
Originally Posted by Yithmas View Post
Look at my post-count, I am... (43 at the time of posting this)
Don't take offense, just be aware that Doc has a tendency not to answer direct questions. Heck, he has a tendency not to answer questions.

Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
If we were allowed to vote on titles for posters, DOC would have Circumloquitor Maximumus.
I would have gone with constantinos fallacious.
GrandMasterFox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 06:59 AM   #15554
kmortis
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Deputy Admin
 
kmortis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka Southern Tier)
Posts: 29,381
Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
Don't take offense, just be aware that Doc has a tendency not to answer direct questions. Heck, he has a tendency not to answer questions.


I would have gone with constantinos fallacious.
That just sounds dirty. Kinda like "masticating philatelist".
__________________
-Aberhaten did it
- "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe
-Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping
- Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm
kmortis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 11:11 AM   #15555
Twiler
Master Poster
 
Twiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,484
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
There is no such PM.
Prove that by sending us a screen capture.
Twiler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 11:32 AM   #15556
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,995
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
There is no such PM.
Do you have evidence of this?
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 11:35 AM   #15557
GrandMasterFox
Graduate Poster
 
GrandMasterFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,381
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
There is no such PM.
Oh come on Doc, why would he lie about that when that could be easily verified?
Not to mention he could be sanctioned by the mods here.

No, that doesn't make any sense.
Therefore it's unlikely an invention and must be true.
GrandMasterFox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 11:35 AM   #15558
Rincewind
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ankh Morpork/Plymouth, UK
Posts: 7,416
Originally Posted by Yithmas View Post
Look at my post-count, I am... (43 at the time of posting this)
Welcome Yithmas!

Of course, you should realise that DOC is the expert when it comes to quoting post counts!
Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 11:42 AM   #15559
Lucian
Illuminator
 
Lucian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,107
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
There is no such PM.
Are you suggesting that Twiler, whom Sir William Ramsay has called one of the most honest posters on the JREF forum, is fibbing? You have presented no evidence of this extraordinary claim.
Lucian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th September 2010, 11:48 AM   #15560
Rincewind
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ankh Morpork/Plymouth, UK
Posts: 7,416
Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
Are you suggesting that Twiler, whom Sir William Ramsay has called one of the most honest posters on the JREF forum, is fibbing? You have presented no evidence of this extraordinary claim.
And extraordinary claims require ordinary signatures.
Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:21 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.