Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

Status
Not open for further replies.
No, it isn't addressed. It's dismissed without any real justification. And with (still) no calculation or estimation of the total power output of the sun. None. Zero. Nada. Nothing.
Untrue - “it is essential that we distinguish the complex, electrodynamic glow discharge model of the Sun from a simple electrostatic model” http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050427sun.htm

You Ziggurat, are using a simple electrostatic model of the Sun.
This quote CONFIRMS my criticism that the EU folks can't account for the total solar power output: "These are only qualitative not quantitative descriptions". In other words, they have no idea whether or not their "model" can account for the most important feature of the sun.
Scott says in the pdf “It is NOT a simple electrostatic problem – it is a dynamic one”
But it's worse than that. FAR worse. Not only do they not HAVE the numbers, there are no POSSIBLE numbers that will work.
snip
Fix the power output and either the voltage is so large the sun will explode or the current is so large it will burn out WAY too fast. Fix the voltage so the sun doesn't explode and the current so it doesn't burn out to fast and the power output will be so low the sun won't even be visible.
Scott says in the pdf - “The detailed dynamic behaviour of every plasma cloud in outer space .is not yet fully describable by tensor algebra. Isn‘t it premature in the extreme to leap into mathematical complexity when one is still just developing a model”
Nothing works. And the reason is simple: they are wrong.
Scott says in the pdf - “he takes me to task for not having detailed quantitative values on my graphs for such quantities as voltage, altitude, temperature, and current density at a star‘s surface. We don’t know those numbers yet – we haven’t gone there to measure them.”

He also says this –

“It is modern astrophysics that demands its followers ‘believe’ in unseen, immeasurable entities such as WIMPS, MACHOs, Dark Matter, and Inflations as a matter of ‘faith’ without proof. The reification of abstractions such as point-masses, magnetic field lines, and mathematical singularities into real entities that can have an effect on matter in real space are classic theological transmogrifications”

And just to make it crystal clear –

“They put forward their assumptions as if they were universal truths. The fact that they have been voted upon and accepted by a self-involved, insular group of experts’ does not make them true.”
http://members.cox.net/dascott3/RebutTB.pdf
I ran through some calculations here, using 10^10 volts as suggested by one EU advocate. With that high a voltage, the sun would literally explode. But it still only has about 10^9 Coulombs of charge, and at 10^10 volts, we need a current of about 3.8x10^16 amps in order to provide the observed 3.8x10^26 watts. But that would discharge the sun in under a millisecond. So the model has far too high a voltage, AND far too large a current. Drop the voltage and you need to raise the current to keep the power constant, making it discharge faster. Drop the current to make it last longer and you need to raise the voltage to keep the power output sufficiently high, making it explode even more violently. Drop both the current AND the voltage by the same factor, and the lifetime remains under a millisecond even while the power drops. Lower the voltage to a realistic level and drop the current enough to last even a year, and the power output will be so low that the sun would be black.
Your using the wrong model to judge the Electric Sun Theory but you know that!

In a nutshell, your attitude to them is:

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

Let me ask you a question. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?
 
Thunderdolts said:
These researchers say that the Sun is electric. It is a glow discharge fed by galactic currents.
Electric currents on this scale should be trivial to observe.

Where are they, Haig? No speculations, please. Just actual observations of the actual currents.
 
Impressive effort, well done. As you know Scott and others don't agree with you. "But one cannot judge the validity of a scientific opinion based on an individual’s “accreditation.” and "The answer is, I’m a layperson who has followed discovery with a particular interest in the work of independent researchers who are skeptical of the current scientific consensus" :-

Yeah, Scott will disagree probably. Luckily, I know that many many more will agree with me that disagree. Maybe you should ask Scott (mail him) to reply to the comments I made.

Nature doesn't have to follow mathematical models but mathematical models have to follow nature.

tusenfem your obviously a clever guy. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior? or is it sacrosanct?

Oh yeah, I am so clever it runs out of my nose.

Naturally, nature does not have to adhere to mathematical models, that is why we constantly improve on modeling by using real data obtained from observations. That is the way (some) progress is made. Many of the fundamentals of plasma physics have been tested, retested and then tested again, that we pretty much know that these theories and models are pretty okay.

Nuclear fusion is the only model that can explain all observations of the Sun. Now, I still have not received a qualitative and quantitative model of the Electric Sun, which you as a lay person favours. Indeed, it would be nice if the Sun turned out to be nothing else as a light bulb, however, please explain to me how it can be that I can quickly calculate what happens when the Sun is driven in a kind of Alfven heliospheric current system, and Scott cs. cannot even come close to show anything of real value (i.e. plots without even values on the axes!!!!!!)

Well, it's Christmas now, so I should stay nice, and keep it with that.
 
I don't agree. this quote from HERE makes the point IMHO: (my bold)

Sorry, Haig, to spoil your Xmas, but that link is one big red herring, if not cow manure. Where exactly does it say how the solar output is produced and what currents are flowing and what resistivity and what is actually driving the currents and what is the magnetic signature of these currents and why are these currents never measured, neither in the equatorial plane nor above the poles of the Sun.

Why not go build a snow man outside?
 
Yeah, Scott will disagree probably. Luckily, I know that many many more will agree with me that disagree. Maybe you should ask Scott (mail him) to reply to the comments I made.
Yes, definitely. Sure, but science isn't about consensus or shouldn't be! No need, surely he reads the forum just like TT.
Nuclear fusion is the only model that can explain all observations of the Sun.
So your saying it can't be falsified? That's a worry.
Sorry, Haig, to spoil your Xmas, but that link is one big red herring, if not cow manure. Where exactly does it say how the solar output is produced and what currents are flowing and what resistivity and what is actually driving the currents and what is the magnetic signature of these currents and why are these currents never measured, neither in the equatorial plane nor above the poles of the Sun.
I'm sure, I covered all that in my previous posts ;)
Why not go build a snow man outside?
On my way :dig: (or am I digging a hole for myself?)
 
All the details? Nope, never asked for that. All I asked for was some very basic order-of-magnitude type stuff. Given an estimated voltage difference (which your source claims to have), you can quite easily calculate the required charge on the sun: q = rP/k where r is the radius of the sun (7x10^8 m), P is the potential (10^10 V), and k is the electric constant (9x10^9 Vm/C). That gives us a charge of around 8x10^8 coulombs. Not so hard, was it? The fact that you couldn`t figure that out doesn`t speak well of your understanding of electricity.

The field from this amount of charge would be about 14 V/m at the surface of the sun (E = kq/r^2), which would produce a force on protons at the surface of the sun of about 2.3x10^-18 Newtons. The gravity at the surface of the sun is about 274 m/s^2, which means the gravitational force on a proton is about 4.6x10^-25 N. So the force on protons from electrostatic repulsion away from the sun will be about 5x10^6 times greater than the attraction of gravity keeping them on the sun. And it will accelerate protons outwards at more than 10^8 times the acceleration of gravity on earth. If the sun had that kind of charge, it would explode. Literally.

I did all this without any funding. And it demonstrates quite simply that the idea is nonsense. Why don`t proponents do these sort of basic calculations? Is it because they can`t? That would be rather pathetic. Or is it because they don`t dare subject their theories to any serious examination?

I don't know why I am doing this because it has proven to be useless in the past, but anyway here goes one more try. Michael Mozina or Haig, I am asking you to show us where, why and how Ziggurat is wrong in the above analysis. His calculations are simple: there are no integrals, no differential equations, there are only some easy calculations and rather straightforward concepts. Please help this layman understand why your electric sun theories work and Ziggurat is wrong.
 
Electric Sun & Nuclear Fusion I

Let me ask you a question. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?
So your saying it can't be falsified? That's a worry.
In principle, of course it can be, or more correctly could have been falsified. But today, in light of present knowledge, probably not. But you must remember that science is a "moving target". Ideas, hypotheses, theories, models & etc. don't stand still, but rather evolve with time. Nuclear fusion, as a power source in the solar/stellar interiors, has already been tested in the manner you are looking for, and has already been confirmed. There are no mainstream scientists at work today, so far as I know, to test the fundamental question, whether or not nuclear fusion is the ultimate power source for the Sun because that question has already been researched & verified. Time to move on and study the details of the process. Indeed, if that fundamental idea is wrong (an extremely unlikely event), then it will eventually become obvious; how, after all, can one observationally & consistently confirm the details of a process that does not actually exist?

Back in the mid to late 1800's, when scientists began to study the Sun seriously, the assumption was that the ultimate power source was heating by the conversion of gravitational potential energy into heat energy by gravitational contraction. This is a perfectly reasonable and viable idea. Prominent figures in this effort were Hermann von Helmholtz & William Thomson (Lord Kelvin). Helmholtz derived a likely age for the Sun of 22,000,000 years in the 1850's, while Thomson later derived a likely age range of 10,000,000 to 500,000,000 years. And that was as old as the Sun could be if that were the primary source of heat. But as it became obvious that Earth was much older than that, literally billions of years old, this idea of gravitational contraction as the ultimate source of energy fell out of favor. It simply could not be made consistent with the obviously much older age for the Sun.

But by the turn of the 1900's, radioactivity has been discovered and nuclear physics began to be a serious science. It was quickly realized that nuclear energy could power a much older Sun. Ernest Rutherford suggested radioactivity (that's nuclear fission) as the power source in 1904. But it did not take long for scientists to recognize the mass deficit in heavier nuclei; this is the fact that the mass of a nucleus is measurably less than the sum of the masses of its constituent particles. This was understood as mass converted to binding energy, in accordance with Einstein's famous equivalence E = Mc2. This is all reviewed in detail by Sir Arthur Eddington in his landmark book The Internal Constitution of the Stars (1926, 1930; see chapter XI "The Source of Stellar Energy"; book still in print through Dover publications). Eddington points out that the energy involved in this "mass deficit" is quite enough to power a Sun as long as 100,000,000,000 years, easily long enough to settle the age problem for the Sun & Earth.

This marks the foundation of the hypothesis that nuclear fusion is the ultimate power source for the Sun. Eddington knew that the energy was enough to fit the observations, but neither he nor anyone else knew of any specific process by which that energy could be released (they knew radioactivity was not that process). Eddington did not suggest any specific process. But Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar took the next step in his equally landmark book An Introduction to the Study of Stellar Structure (University of Chicago Press 1939, still in print through Dover Publications; see chapter XII "Stellar Energy"). Chandrasekhar outlined a series of plausible nuclear reactions and demonstrated that the energy release in these reactions were consistent with observed characteristics of stars.

At the same time Chandrasekhar's book came out, Hans Bethe led the charge in the next major step. He proved specifically that the basic proton - proton (PP)and Carbon - Nitrogen - Oxygen (CNO) fusion reaction chains were entirely consistent with and allowed by nuclear physics and quantum mechanics and would in fact power a star (see Bethe & Critchfield, 1938; Bethe, 1939a; Bethe, 1939b; and also of interest are Bethe & Marshak, 1939 and Bethe, 1940). These papers marked the transition of nuclear fusion as a stellar energy source from an hypothesis to a genuine theory, with a solid foundation in theoretical & experimental physics.

But of course this was followed quickly by WWII, atomic (fission) bombs and hydrogen (fusion) bombs and very rapid advances in both theoretical and experimental knowledge of nuclear physics, and specifically the reactions attributed as the source of stellar energy. These reactions were heavily studied in the development of fusion weapons, and that knowledge made its way into the next major study published after Eddington & Chandrasekhar, the book Structure and Evolution of the Stars by Martin Schwarzschild (Princeton University Press, 1958; still in print through Dover Publications; see chapter 2, section 10 "Nuclear Reactions"). By now the rates & energies of the specific reactions expected in stars were known and utilized by Schwarzschild. He was the first to offer this kind of detail and the first to take advantage of the post WWII knowledge derived from weapon studies. He was also the first to expand the topic from simply stellar structure to stellar evolution, in detail.

By this time it was well established that these nuclear reactions were undeniable in terms of both theoretical & experimental physics. They were known to be physically possible & probable. The only question that remained was that, while they were known to be probable, were they known to actually happen in actual stars? This was assumed, and these processes assumed to be in fact the source of stellar energy, because there was no other physical process known which could be consistent with observed stellar properties, which remains the case to this day. But considering that a stellar core is not directly or indirectly observable by any means available at that time, how is one to observationally verify that nuclear fusion really is the ultimate power source for stars? The answer was recognized immediately: Neutrinos.

Early research revealed neutrinos from the Sun, but detected too few of them, which implied far less nuclear fusion in the Sun than was required to match its observed energy output, a serious problem. But eventually the theory & experiment of neutrino oscillations solved that problem, and it is now known that the actual observed flow of neutrinos from the sun is consistent with the rates and types of nuclear fusion reactions theoretically expected in the Sun. See my own webpage Solar Fusion & Neutrinos for a detailed discussion of this part of the story, including copious references.

This determination of the solar neutrino flux provides the first direct observational confirmation that nuclear fusion is ongoing in the solar core, and that the rates & types of reactions are as predicted before the neutrino observations were made. It is important to point out that each of the nuclear reactions generates neutrinos of predictable and precise energy. The observed energy spectrum of the neutrinos will therefore tell the observer which reactions are being seen (from the energy) and what the reaction rates are (from the count of neutrinos at the given energy). These types & rates precisely match what was expected prior to the observations being made. You ask "Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?". Had the neutrino flux been absent, it would have falsified the nuclear fusion theory of stellar energy. But in fact it confirmed that theory. And it confirmed it not just in general but in detail.

In addition we now have the tools of helioseismology that allow us to indirectly observe the physical state of the deep solar interior in real time. That tool reveals that astrophysical models for solar/stellar interiors, developed over decades of theoretical research, are in fact consistent with the presently observed physical state of the solar interior. Most importantly, the temperature structure of the solar interior is consistent with prior theoretical expectations. That temperature structure is what sets the rate for each given type of reaction. So, the implication of the neutrino data that the types & rates of nuclear reaction are as predicted is that the temperature structure must also be as predicted. But we see that helioseismology, which more directly probes the temperature structure, produces the same result. So both observations, helioseismology and neutrinos, are mutually supportive and both independently supportive of the fusion theory. This makes the conclusion that nuclear fusion powers the sun a very strong conclusion on both observational & theoretical grounds.

Bottom Line: You ask "Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?" The answer is "Yes". That "anything" you refer to has already been done and the results are in. Nuclear fusion in the stellar core is verified. It could have been falsified had the results of observation been different, but it was not falsified, it was verified. For further reading, I suggest the book Nuclear Physics of Stars by Christian Iliades, Wiley-VCH, 2007. The online Lecture Notes on Helioseismology by Christensen-Dalsgaard are a good resource for basic helioseismology.
 
Above, we have a well though out systematic description of the processes that power the sun, with a historical perspective. Can any of the electric sun people tell their side in a similar manner?
 
Please help this layman understand why your electric sun theories work and Ziggurat is wrong.
I can try.
So both observations, helioseismology and neutrinos, are mutually supportive and both independently supportive of the fusion theory. This makes the conclusion that nuclear fusion powers the sun a very strong conclusion on both observational & theoretical grounds.
Thanks. So it's an accepted fact.
Above, we have a well though out systematic description of the processes that power the sun, with a historical perspective. Can any of the electric sun people tell their side in a similar manner?
Sure they can:-

Eddington the mathematician would see a star as a simple thing. Mathematicians require simple models to allow a mathematical solution. But as spacecraft have expanded our view of the Sun it is clear that that bright ball of plasma is not 'a simple thing.'

If external electrical currents power stars and galaxies, the power source is probably not located in the stars. The situation is similar to viewing from space the twinkling lights of great cities on Earth, which give no indication of where the power is being generated.

The Electric Sun Hypothesis
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

Our Misunderstood Sun
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=ah63dzac

Twinkle, twinkle electric star
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=x49g6gsf

On the Sun’s Electric-Field
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/SunsEfield92210.pdf
 
I can try.
Thanks. So it's an accepted fact.
Sure they can:-

Eddington the mathematician would see a star as a simple thing. Mathematicians require simple models to allow a mathematical solution. But as spacecraft have expanded our view of the Sun it is clear that that bright ball of plasma is not 'a simple thing.'

If external electrical currents power stars and galaxies, the power source is probably not located in the stars. The situation is similar to viewing from space the twinkling lights of great cities on Earth, which give no indication of where the power is being generated.

The Electric Sun Hypothesis
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

Our Misunderstood Sun
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=ah63dzac

Twinkle, twinkle electric star
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=x49g6gsf

On the Sun’s Electric-Field
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/SunsEfield92210.pdf

More of the same: All you people have are baseless criticisms of mainstream theory and lots of links and silly analogies. You never include any description, analysis or quantitative details of your theories. How about a refutation (with some justifying mathematics) of Ziggurat's demonstration of the impossibility of an electric sun?
I think you could benefit yourself a great deal by trying to learn some real science and mathematics (if you're interested) so you could gain a genuine understanding of how the sun works.
 
Last edited:
Yes, definitely. Sure, but science isn't about consensus or shouldn't be! No need, surely he reads the forum just like TT.
So your saying it can't be falsified? That's a worry.
I'm sure, I covered all that in my previous posts ;)
On my way :dig: (or am I digging a hole for myself?)

Did I write that? NO! Learn to read!
I wrote that at the moment the fusion model is the only model that can explain all observations.
 
You Ziggurat, are using a simple electrostatic model of the Sun.

So give me an alternative method to calculate total power output. Or hell, just total available energy will do.

Scott says in the pdf “It is NOT a simple electrostatic problem – it is a dynamic one”

That is not an explanation, that is an excuse. An excuse for failure.

Scott says in the pdf - “The detailed dynamic behaviour of every plasma cloud in outer space .is not yet fully describable by tensor algebra. Isn‘t it premature in the extreme to leap into mathematical complexity when one is still just developing a model”

A total energy budget doesn't require a lot of mathematical complexity. And the reason is simple: making the system complex won't add energy. If you can't get the energy right with a simple model, you won't get it right with a complex one either.

Scott says in the pdf - “he takes me to task for not having detailed quantitative values on my graphs for such quantities as voltage, altitude, temperature, and current density at a star‘s surface. We don’t know those numbers yet – we haven’t gone there to measure them.”

Again: the problem is that NO numbers will work. This is, yet again, simply an exercise in making excuses on Scott's part, and yours.

And just to make it crystal clear –

“They put forward their assumptions as if they were universal truths.

That's a pretty good description of the EU folks. They don't understand the standard solar model, they don't understand electromagnetism, they don't understand plasmas, and yet they assume that electric phenomena dominate the sun. Why? Because Birkeland took some pretty pictures of a brass ball surrounded by partially ionized gas?

Your using the wrong model to judge the Electric Sun Theory but you know that!

You don't have a model for your "Electric Sun Theory" but you know that.

Let me ask you a question. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?

Sure. For example, if the solar power output was too high for fusion to account for, that would falsify it. That's not the case, though. But it IS the case that the power output is too high for any electric model to work. Which is why those models are already falsified. You have done nothing to actually argue to the contrary. You have produced no mechanism by which electromagnetism can supply sufficient power, and neither have any of your sources. Hell, you and your sources haven't even tried. Doesn't that make you wonder, even a little bit, whether or not maybe they might not be right?
 
Scott says in the pdf - "he takes me to task for not having detailed quantitative values on my graphs for such quantities as voltage, altitude, temperature, and current density at a star‘s surface. We don’t know those numbers yet -- we haven’t gone there to measure them."
Again: the problem is that NO numbers will work. This is, yet again, simply an exercise in making excuses on Scott's part, and yours.


It is also an admission on Scott's part that he/they are unable to assemble a quantitative explanation for their nutty conjecture. And without a quantitative model, there is no model at all.

You don't have a model for your "Electric Sun Theory" but you know that.


Correct. Those 100 year old looks-like-a-bunny pictures do not constitute a solar model, regardless of the dishonest arguments and uninformed subjective guesses put forth by any of the electric Sun crackpots.
 
Electric Sun & Nuclear Fusion II

So, the implication of the neutrino data that the types & rates of nuclear reaction are as predicted is that the temperature structure must also be as predicted. But we see that helioseismology, which more directly probes the temperature structure, produces the same result. So both observations, helioseismology and neutrinos, are mutually supportive and both independently supportive of the fusion theory. This makes the conclusion that nuclear fusion powers the sun a very strong conclusion on both observational & theoretical grounds.
Thanks. So it's an accepted fact.
It is exactly that. Of course, in principle it is still falsifiable. However, in practice, in order to falsify the theory that nuclear fusion powers the Sun (and stars), one would have to falsify the physics of the standard theory used to derive the high core temperatures, falsify the interpretation of helioseismological observations that verify the high core temperature, and falsify interpretation of neutrino observations that support the high core temperature. This will be harder done than said, because all of the theory & observations I have mentioned here are rooted in very fundamental physics. So falsifying any of it will require a significant modification of the entire discipline of physics. So you see there is very little chance that this falsification can be carried out.

Keep in mind my "bottom line":

Bottom Line: You ask "Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?" The answer is "Yes". That "anything" you refer to has already been done and the results are in. Nuclear fusion in the stellar core is verified. It could have been falsified had the results of observation been different, but it was not falsified, it was verified. For further reading, I suggest the book Nuclear Physics of Stars by Christian Iliades, Wiley-VCH, 2007. The online Lecture Notes on Helioseismology by Christensen-Dalsgaard are a good resource for basic helioseismology.


If external electrical currents power stars and galaxies, the power source is probably not located in the stars. The situation is similar to viewing from space the twinkling lights of great cities on Earth, which give no indication of where the power is being generated.
No, the situation is in no way similar. We have explored the space around the Sun, in all directions, with spacecraft. We have actually flown right through where those currents are supposed to be, with instruments designed specifically to detect & measure electric currents. Guess what? The currents are not there? That's why the situation is completely different. Direct, in situ observations, clearly show that the currents are not there. If we know that the currents are not there, then why should we rely on them as a power source for the Sun, when we have a perfectly good nuclear alternative? Why is your way better than the standard way?

Now, if that were not enough, how about this? We know, thanks to those spacecraft, that the space around the Sun is filled with a "solar wind" (or "stellar wind"), made up of a roughly equal number of relatively evenly mixed protons & electrons, carrying the solar magnetic field along with them. So how would one get an electric current to flow towards the sun, while it is ramming headlong into the solar wind flowing away from the Sun, carrying along with it a magnetic field, also moving away from the Sun? The answer is that one would not. The physics of electromagnetism, which the "electric Sun" people are supposed to know so well, make it physically impossible for the electric currents they claim are powering the Sun to exist at all.

So, what do we have here? We have direct observations which directly show that the currents are not there. Furthermore, we have very basic physics which shows that the currents cannot be there in any case. Mutual agreement between observation & theory, which mutual agreement directly falsifies the electric Sun hypothesis.

How do your heroes of the electric Sun respond to this?
 
So give me an alternative method to calculate total power output. Or hell, just total available energy will do.

So how about using the standard method? When did Bruce the sun had a external energy source? Why in your mind *must* an electric sun have a *completely external* power source?
confused.gif
 
That is because this specific individual refuses to get into any real scientific discussion,

So you start off with a lie to justify a personal attack?

does not understand the papers he quotes and cites as support for his claims

Two lies in a row.... How cute.

(and then turn out to work against him when one actually reads these papers)

Like?

and when asked to defend himself, this individual starts claiming that "it is not my model,

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news here for you, but *I* did not invent PC/EU theory, cathode sun theories, electric sun theories, electric comet theories, GR theory, QM theory, etc. You'll just have to deal with that reality sooner or later.

it is that of Alfie or Birkie,"

The fact is that these two individuals were the creators or PC theory and cathode sun theories. What did you expect me to do about it?

and that was the end then of the discussion, apart from the same old pictures that get shown again (Birkeland trying to create Saturn's rings in the Terrella experiment, next to a picture of the Sun in X-rays).

Of course I've pointed you to that NY Times article now a number of times on the various speeches he gave about "cathode suns". I guess the denial thing is the primary self defense mechanism around here. If you don't want to deal with it, just deny it ever existed.

Oh, by the way, the individual we are talking about is you MM.

And you have no business bringing *ME* into the conversation. Unfortunately since most of your fellow EU haters haven't ever bothered to read the actual materials in question, and most of them are therefore completely clueless as to the actual "science" involved, the only thing left is pure personal attack. Yawn
 
So how about using the standard method? When did Bruce the sun had a external energy source? Why in your mind *must* an electric sun have a *completely external* power source? [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif[/qimg]

Bruce isn't the only electric sun proponent we're talking about, and whether or not it's the only power source doesn't matter, electricity (external OR internal) cannot be an even significant contributor to the power output. The numbers don't work by many, many orders of magnitude. But if it's not a significant contributor to the total power output, then we're not talking about an electric sun model, we're still talking about a stellar fusion model, even if it's not the standard stellar fusion model.

But then, just like Haig, you've always shied away from actual numbers. Which is why you've persisted in believing this nonsense for so many years.
 
I don't know why I am doing this because it has proven to be useless in the past, but anyway here goes one more try. Michael Mozina or Haig, I am asking you to show us where, why and how Ziggurat is wrong in the above analysis.

It *assumes* that the entire energy source of the sun is *external* to the sun. Why?

I'd like a quick show of hands here. How many of the actual participants in this thread besides Tusenfum and myself have actually read Cosmic Plasma? I get the distinct impression that the whole lot of you are couch potato critics without any real clue how Alfven actually presented these ideas.
 
Bruce isn't the only electric sun proponent we're talking about, and whether or not it's the only power source doesn't matter, electricity (external OR internal) cannot be an even significant contributor to the power output. The numbers don't work by many, many orders of magnitude. But if it's not a significant contributor to the total power output, then we're not talking about an electric sun model, we're still talking about a stellar fusion model, even if it's not the standard stellar fusion model.

Bruce's discharge theories were applied to a standard stellar fusion model. Whatever you wish to call it, it's still an "EU" orientation from the photosphere outward.

But then, just like Haig, you've always shied away from actual numbers. Which is why you've persisted in believing this nonsense for so many years.

I haven't shied away from numbers. I have provided a boat-load of numbers contained in various papers and books, most of which the vast majority of you *refuse* to actually read for yourselves. Somehow it's my personal responsibility to bark math for you on command....or else. By your logic, GR and QM theory must also blow chunks too. :)

You all have this *intense emotional need* to "dumb down" the whole EU concept to treat it in a grossly oversimplied manner. I guess you figure you're going to "debunk" every single possible "electric sun" theory with a single line of math in your mind. Sorry, but that is just silly nonsense.
 
It *assumes* that the entire energy source of the sun is *external* to the sun. Why?

I'd like a quick show of hands here. How many of the actual participants in this thread besides Tusenfum and myself have actually read Cosmic Plasma? I get the distinct impression that the whole lot of you are couch potato critics without any real clue how Alfven actually presented these ideas.


I get the idea that not one single argument presented by any electric Sun crackpot shows any understanding of anything Alfvén wrote. After all, his material has been reviewed here in this thread and found to be wholly lacking in support for the nutty notion that the Sun is electric.
 
No, the situation is in no way similar. We have explored the space around the Sun, in all directions, with spacecraft. We have actually flown right through where those currents are supposed to be, with instruments designed specifically to detect & measure electric currents. Guess what? The currents are not there? That's why the situation is completely different. Direct, in situ observations, clearly show that the currents are not there. If we know that the currents are not there, then why should we rely on them as a power source for the Sun, when we have a perfectly good nuclear alternative? Why is your way better than the standard way?

Now, if that were not enough, how about this? We know, thanks to those spacecraft, that the space around the Sun is filled with a "solar wind" (or "stellar wind"), made up of a roughly equal number of relatively evenly mixed protons & electrons, carrying the solar magnetic field along with them. So how would one get an electric current to flow towards the sun, while it is ramming headlong into the solar wind flowing away from the Sun, carrying along with it a magnetic field, also moving away from the Sun? The answer is that one would not. The physics of electromagnetism, which the "electric Sun" people are supposed to know so well, make it physically impossible for the electric currents they claim are powering the Sun to exist at all.

So, what do we have here? We have direct observations which directly show that the currents are not there. Furthermore, we have very basic physics which shows that the currents cannot be there in any case. Mutual agreement between observation & theory, which mutual agreement directly falsifies the electric Sun hypothesis.

How do your heroes of the electric Sun respond to this?
This is the only post that Haig needs to read. It needs to be repeated every time he attempts an evasive link dump. This must be dealt with.
 
Bruce's discharge theories were applied to a standard stellar fusion model. Whatever you wish to call it, it's still an "EU" orientation from the photosphere outward.

Then it isn't what Haig was talking about, and in fact it isn't what YOU have talked about in the past either.

I haven't shied away from numbers.

Yes you have. I have constantly asked you to provide basic parameters of your own "model", and you constantly fail to.

Somehow it's my personal responsibility to bark math for you on command

Math is the language of physics. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you (again), but if you can't do the math, you can't do the physics.

You have never, ever, done any math on this message board. Not even simple algebra. Not only will you not do the math you've been challenged to do, you will never include any math to describe your own ideas. You are allergic to math.

By your logic, GR and QM theory must also blow chunks too. :)

What on earth are you talking about? Both QM and GR are very well-described mathematically. GR in particular is especially math intensive.

You all have this *intense emotional need* to "dumb down" the whole EU concept to treat it in a grossly oversimplied manner.

Oh, the irony.

I'm the one trying to get YOU to use technical descriptions of your ideas (ie, anything quantitative), and you consistently refuse. You're the one who wants to keep it simplified by never providing quantitative details, not me.

I guess you figure you're going to "debunk" every single possible "electric sun" theory with a single line of math in your mind. Sorry, but that is just silly nonsense.

If you want to take "electric sun theory" to mean any theory with electromagnetic fields, then sure, that would be silly. But that describes the standard model too. What Haig (and in fact most EU advocates) suggests is that the sun is largely powered by electricity. And yes, we really can dismiss that notion in a few lines of math. If we couldn't, then you could refute me with a few lines of math.

Well, maybe not you, since you can't do math, but someone.
 
Pay attention Michael. He's responding to Haig, who insists that the sun has an external electrical energy source.

Care to up your personal credibility by admitting that this is not a reasonable hypothesis?

Well, admittedly I've been preoccupied for the past week....

I personally prefer an *internal* energy source based on what I observe in solar satellite images. It acts more like a cathode than a "unipolar inductor" IMO. That isn't to say that *no* energy comes from an external source.
 
I get the idea that not one single argument presented by any electric Sun crackpot shows any understanding of anything Alfvén wrote.

Like all of the other ideas you "get" about Alfven's beliefs, they must also be based on clairvoyance since you've never actually read the materials!

After all, his material has been reviewed here in this thread and found to be wholly lacking in support for the nutty notion that the Sun is electric.

Reviewed? You mean like "Circuits? What circuits?"? "Double layers? What double layers?" Oy.
 
Bruce isn't the only electric sun proponent we're talking about, and whether or not it's the only power source doesn't matter, electricity (external OR internal) cannot be an even significant contributor to the power output.

It doesn't have to be! I have *CERTAINLY* talked about Bruce. On more than one occasion I have pointed out that he used a *STANDARD* solar model too in terms of the "power supply".

The numbers don't work by many, many orders of magnitude. But if it's not a significant contributor to the total power output, then we're not talking about an electric sun model, we're still talking about a stellar fusion model, even if it's not the standard stellar fusion model.

There is nothing that precludes an "electric sun" from having a "fusion' power source! You're going to have to accept that concept sooner or later. More importantly, an electric sun is not even limited to a *SINGLE* power source!

But then, just like Haig, you've always shied away from actual numbers. Which is why you've persisted in believing this nonsense for so many years.

FYI, it actually was the the "numbers" (and satellite images) that convinced me personally that the sun is primarily internally powered. Birkeland's power source was also "internally" powered. AFAIK Alfven's theories never precluded there from being an internal power source as well as a "current flow" that included external currents.
 
Then it isn't what Haig was talking about, and in fact it isn't what YOU have talked about in the past either.

Oh, I have so. I've been talking "flares" now for months and Bruce's work was presented first.

Yes you have. I have constantly asked you to provide basic parameters of your own "model", and you constantly fail to.
I have provided you with *Birkeland's* basic parameters which you consistently fail to accept. Why?

Math is the language of physics. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you (again), but if you can't do the math, you can't do the physics.

Again, *NO* physics theory rises and/or falls on *my personal* math skills, not QM, not GR, not particle physics theories, not PC theory, and not a cathode sun theory either.

You have never, ever, done any math on this message board. Not even simple algebra. Not only will you not do the math you've been challenged to do, you will never include any math to describe your own ideas. You are allergic to math.

I see no point in doing "busy math" when you refuse to deal with Birkeland's maths, or Alfven's maths, or Lerner's maths, or Peratt's maths. What good would it do for me to bark math for you on command?

What on earth are you talking about? Both QM and GR are very well-described mathematically. GR in particular is especially math intensive.

So is PC/EU theory, but none of you would know that because none of you (except perhaps T) have even bothered to read Alfven's book or Peratt's book or Lerner's book. All of your collective beliefs are evidently based primarily on 'hearsay" information that was obtained clairvoyantly evidently.

I'm the one trying to get YOU to use technical descriptions of your ideas (ie, anything quantitative), and you consistently refuse.

That is absolutely boloney! I have provided *PAPER AFTER PAPER AFTER PAPER* to demonstrate that a "discharge" occurs in a flare. I can't even get you folks to accept simply plasma physics *TERMS*, let alone deal with any of the actual "maths"? Circuits? What circuits? Double layers? What exploding double layers? If you don't like the maths, you simply *IGNORE* them entirely!
 
Last edited:
Did I write that? NO! Learn to read!
I wrote that at the moment the fusion model is the only model that can explain all observations.

No it does not! Your mainstream fusion model *does not* explain something as *simple* a solar wind even though Birkeland *empirically* "predicted" it over 100 years ago!
 
Sure. For example, if the solar power output was too high for fusion to account for, that would falsify it.

No, you would just have "modified" it to fit just like you do everything else. The lack of the correct number of neutrinos didn't even "falsify" it. Instead they worked to understand *WHY* did it didn't match predictions.

That's not the case, though. But it IS the case that the power output is too high for any electric model to work.

False! The only claim you could make based on your oversimplified maths are that the total power output is too high for *ALL* of the energy to come from an *EXTERNAL* electric power source. That's the only real claim you can make.
 
I DID NOT ARGUE AGAINST THE INDIVIDUAL RATHER THEN THE TOPIC.

Pure baloney and pure denial. Your first two sentences were about *ME*, not the topic. Both sentences included the term "you" for no useful purpose other than to ridicule the *INDIVIDUAL*.

I won't even bother with most of your nonsense and denail, but this statement actually warrants a response.

As tusenfem has pointed out already (1 December 2010) ...

The circuit APPROXIMATION is still used in plasma physics and plasma astrophysics today. The circuit description has never been abandoned.

Then it is a *CORRECT* way of expressing the "maths", just as "correct" as your "magnetic reconnection" theories and maths.

But it cannot deal with "microphysical" processes and so is of necessarily limited value.

That is why Alfven described "exploding double layers" Tim.

You seem to think that if you can just show somebody successfully using a circuit model, then you have struck some kind of blow against the mainstream.

Not at all. You're the one denying there are maths that work in PC theory, but you just admitted that Alfven's circuit orientation is a valid approach!

But in fact, all you are doing is reinforcing the standard model, which explicitly does use (and explicitly always has used) the circuit APPROXIMATION to describe space & astrophysical & geophysical plasma.

Nope. Alfven used the term "circuit" to describe a "current carrying filament". You're calling that same thing a "magnetic line" and claiming "magnetic lines" do the "reconnecting". That's not true. That whole idea is something Alfven himself *explicitly rejected* in current carrying plasmas.

So I have to say I just don't get the point you are trying to make? Are you arguing that the circuit APPROXIMATION is correct?

I'm saying Alfven's "circuit" approach to explaining flares is just as valid as your beliefs in terms of the math.
 
Last edited:
Math is the language of physics. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you (again), but if you can't do the math, you can't do the physics.

Again, *NO* physics theory rises and/or falls on *my personal* math skills, not QM, not GR, not particle physics theories, not PC theory, and not a cathode sun theory either.
No one has ever suggested that any physical theory depends upon your personal math skills.

What Ziggurat said is "if you can't do the math, you can't do the physics." Everyone who's been paying attention knows you can't do the math. Consequently, everyone knows you can't do the physics.

That doesn't have anything to do with whether the physics is right or wrong, but it has a great deal to do with whether the beliefs you have expressed in thousands of posts deserve any response beyond laughter.

You have never, ever, done any math on this message board. Not even simple algebra. Not only will you not do the math you've been challenged to do, you will never include any math to describe your own ideas. You are allergic to math.

I see no point in doing "busy math" when you refuse to deal with Birkeland's maths, or Alfven's maths, or Lerner's maths, or Peratt's maths. What good would it do for me to bark math for you on command?
If you could support your opinions with mathematics or actual science, then your opinions might deserve serious consideration. As it is, your opinions remain unsupported by anything but your prejudices.

What on earth are you talking about? Both QM and GR are very well-described mathematically. GR in particular is especially math intensive.

So is PC/EU theory, but none of you would know that because none of you have read Alfven's book or Peratt's book or Lerner's book. All of your collective beliefs are evidently based primarily on 'hearsay" information that was obtained clairvoyantly evidently.
When you are our primary source of "hearsay" information on PC/EU theory, it is natural for us to dismiss that theory. After all, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

That's unfair, of course, because you routinely misrepresent the ideas you advocate almost as much as you misrepresent the ideas you deplore. So it goes.

I'm the one trying to get YOU to use technical descriptions of your ideas (ie, anything quantitative), and you consistently refuse.

That is absolutely boloney! I have provided *PAPER AFTER PAPER AFTER PAPER* to demonstrate that a "discharge" occurs in a flare. I can't even get you folks to accept simply plasma physics *TERMS*, let alone deal with any of the actual "maths"? Circuits? What circuits? Double layers? What exploding double layers? If you don't like the maths, you simply *IGNORE* them entirely!
Because you don't understand the mathematics, you routinely misunderstand the papers you ask us to read.

Dungey's paper is a case in point:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6636179#post6636179
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6636281#post6636281
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6636433#post6636433
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6636473#post6636473
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6637486#post6637486
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6637920#post6637920

I have done the math, calculated the numbers, and can reproduce both Dungey's Figure 1 and Wikipedia's animation of magnetic reconnection directly from Maxwell's equations.

You, however, continue to deny any connection between Dungey's paper and magnetic reconnection. You are basically denying magnetic reconnection. You have done so within the last five minutes:
Michael Mozina said:
Nope. Alfven used the term "circuit" to describe a "current carrying filament". You're calling that same thing a "magnetic line" and claiming "magnetic lines" do the "reconnecting". That's not true. That whole idea is something Alfven himself *explicitly rejected* in current carrying plasmas.
If Alfvén rejected magnetic reconnection, then Alfvén was wrong.

Provably wrong, unless you (unlike Alfvén) are willing to dismiss mathematical proofs that take Maxwell's equations as axiomatic.

Magnetic reconnection is a simple consequence of Maxwell's equations. As Dungey noted, magnetic reconnection can occur even in the absence of current carrying plasmas. Of course, magnetic reconnection becomes interesting for solar physics only because of its interaction with plasma physics. You'll never understand that interaction so long as you're denying the fundamental facts of magnetic reconnection.

Of course, your denial of those fundamental facts is rooted in your inability to do math. Without math, you can't understand Maxwell's equations. Without Maxwell's equations, you can't even begin to understand magnetic reconnection.

All you can do is to parrot your heroes, and half the time you don't understand what they wrote either.
 
Like all of the other ideas you "get" about Alfven's beliefs, they must also be based on clairvoyance since you've never actually read the materials!


This particular repeated lie is, as always, noted.

Reviewed? You mean like "Circuits? What circuits?"? "Double layers? What double layers?" Oy.


Alfvén's assessment has indeed been reviewed here and found to be totally lacking in any support for the inane conjecture that electrical discharges are, or are the cause of, solar flares and CMEs. Obviously the feigned indignation and dishonest misrepresentation of that review fails as an argument.
 
Well, admittedly I've been preoccupied for the past week....

I personally prefer an *internal* energy source based on what I observe in solar satellite images. It acts more like a cathode than a "unipolar inductor" IMO. That isn't to say that *no* energy comes from an external source.


Yet no actual numbers have ever been offered as to how much of that energy is internal and how much comes from an external source. There isn't even a quantitative objective explanation as to how those numbers might be derived. No electric Sun proponent has given us anything but a bunch of disconnected wildass guesses. Guesses are not science. There is no electric Sun model. And without some quantitative objective description of such a model, to say one exists is a lie.
 
No one has ever suggested that any physical theory depends upon your personal math skills.

Evidently since you folks have a lot of math skills, you've decided to judge the value (and sanity actually) of all human beings based upon their personal math skills. Collectively you also tend to judge physics theories you don't like based on how some *amateur* (that you can ridicule) presents the material to you on some message board in cyberspace instead of taking a few months to properly educate yourselves to Alfven's own works, and Birkeland's written materials.

What Ziggurat said is "if you can't do the math, you can't do the physics." Everyone who's been paying attention knows you can't do the math. Consequently, everyone knows you can't do the physics.

This statement is simply a convenient lie for you. Anyone that has been paying attention knows that I *won't* bark math for you (or anyone else) on command in these threads. I absolutely and positively refuse to feed your bizzare belief that my personal math skills are in any way related to the legitimacy of either a cathode sun theory that's a 100 years old now, or a PC theory of cosmology that was written *LONG* before *I personally* became involved with the theory.

I've been through calculus Mr. Spock. I can "follow along" just fine. I don't have to write the maths myself. I don't have to do maths for you on command to demonstrate that those maths are correct. The correctness of those maths has *NOTHING* do with me or my personal maths skills, anymore than GR or QM is dependent upon my math skills.

That doesn't have anything to do with whether the physics is right or wrong, but it has a great deal to do with whether the beliefs you have expressed in thousands of posts deserve any response beyond laughter.

You're essentially laughing at Alfven and Birkeland, not me. Laugh all you want, but unless you have a Nobel Prize sitting on your bookshelf, you really at least should read the materials before passing judgement on them rather than laughing at mere amateurs in cyberspace in some bizarre attempt at personal ego gratification.

If you could support your opinions with mathematics or actual science, then your opinions might deserve serious consideration.

The are not just *MY* opinions. This is like saying *If* I could justify my opinions about QM to your personal satisfaction mathematically *then* (and only then) would QM be a legitimate form of "science".

As it is, your opinions remain unsupported by anything but your prejudices.

Speaking of prejudices, have you actually read Alfven's book or Birkeland's book for yourself yet?

When you are our primary source of "hearsay" information on PC/EU theory, it is natural for us to dismiss that theory. After all, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Ya, but according to you I don't know squat about QM or GR either, but no scientific theory is rises or falls on my skills.

I'll cover the Dungey stuff in a separate post so these two issues don't get lost in huge posts.
 
No it does not! Your mainstream fusion model *does not* explain something as *simple* a solar wind even though Birkeland *empirically* "predicted" it over 100 years ago!

Sure it does!

However, as an example that the fusion model cannot explain some things, you come with the solar wind, so I guess I will just have to follow you in your delusion that this is on topic.

The main problem is that there are too many processes that can heat up the corona and we do not know which one is the main player (nano flares, Alfven waves, sound waves .......).

The solar wind is well described by the gas laws, since Parker. But, of course this has nothing to do with whether or not there is fusion in the Sun. Any model for powering the Sun to shine, will have the same difficulties.

Here is a paper by Cranmer et al. (2010). I have only skimmed it, but is seems a good review of what is known today about the topic of coronal heating and SW acceleration.

Birkeland, indeed, predicted that the Sun would emit "corpuscules" of both charges, however, as his terrella out of necessity needs to be either positively or negatively charged, he can never really have "modeled the solar wind" in his experiments. He could show that energetic electrons e.g. could create the aurora. However, (none of) the electric Sun model(s) can explain why there would be equal amounts of postive and negative charge flying away from the Sun. A thing that would be utterly impossible when the Sun would be an anode or a cathode.

However, I am sure you can show us exactly how (one of) the electric Sun model(s) will do that, equal amounts of ions and electrons as equal velocities.

Ahh, wait, I will not get an answer to that, because it is not your model, it is just a model for which you have affinity and think is correct, but are not willing to defend into any detail. Too bad!
 
Last edited:
This particular repeated lie is, as always, noted.

If you are familiar with the material and you reject it, explain why Alfven's *CIRCUIT* explanation of flares is flawed for us GM.

Alfvén's assessment has indeed been reviewed here and found to be totally lacking

Since you haven't read it, how would you know? What's "lacking"?

in any support for the inane conjecture that electrical discharges are, or are the cause of, solar flares and CMEs.

By Peratt's *DEFINITION* (a professional plasma physicist by trade) a flare *IS* a "discharge" even if the "cause" was "magnetic reconnection". Your denial won't make it go away.

Obviously the feigned indignation and dishonest misrepresentation of that review fails as an argument.

The only dishonest person is the critic that never bothered to read the materials in question before going on crusade. "Circuit"? What circuit? Exploding double layer? What double layer?" You can't address the issues since you have not read the material. If I am wrong, demonstrate the error in Alfven's work for us and show us your superior (the Nobel Prize winning scientists) wisdom.
 
FYI, it actually was the the "numbers" (and satellite images) that convinced me personally that the sun is primarily internally powered.


It would be foolish, as well as being the antithesis of legitimate science, to suggest that looking at a picture might be a reasonable way to determine the power source for the Sun.

Birkeland's power source was also "internally" powered. AFAIK Alfven's theories never precluded there from being an internal power source as well as a "current flow" that included external currents.


Birkeland's little brass ball in the glass box was not internally powered. It would not only be silly, it would also be a flat out lie to suggest it was. The electromagnet inside the ball was connected by wires to a power supply outside the box. There is nothing about Birkeland's little brass ball or the way its electromagnet was powered that remotely resembles the actual Sun.
 
By Peratt's *DEFINITION* (a professional plasma physicist by trade) a flare *IS* a "discharge" even if the "cause" was "magnetic reconnection".


That argument is, of course, another lie. Arbitrarily and dishonestly redefining terms in order to shoehorn someone's research material into allegedly supporting an insane crackpot conjecture is spitting in the face of the researcher. And it's certainly not science by any stretch of the imagination.
 
No, you would just have "modified" it to fit just like you do everything else. The lack of the correct number of neutrinos didn't even "falsify" it. Instead they worked to understand *WHY* did it didn't match predictions.

If a theory gets modified to fit the data, it's not the same theory anymore. The original version is falsified. The fact that a similar theory may match the data doesn't mean the theory was not falsifiable.

But "electric universe" ideas are largely unfalsifiable, because they're mostly so vague they're untestable. The few that are testable are mostly already falsified (for example, the 10 billion volt sun). But you still haven't come to terms with that.

False! The only claim you could make based on your oversimplified maths are that the total power output is too high for *ALL* of the energy to come from an *EXTERNAL* electric power source. That's the only real claim you can make.

Not so. The disparity between the total power output and the possible power available from electric sources is so many orders of magnitude that electric sources cannot contribute even a significant fraction to the total power output. Again, you'd know this if you actually looked at the numbers. But you avoid the numbers at all cost, in order to avoid confronting what's really a pretty obvious reality.
 
I have done the math, calculated the numbers, and can reproduce both Dungey's Figure 1 and Wikipedia's animation of magnetic reconnection directly from Maxwell's equations.

You, however, continue to deny any connection between Dungey's paper and magnetic reconnection.

Please quote Dungey where he used the term "magnetic reconnection". I saw him discuss *discharges* that "reconnect".

You are basically denying magnetic reconnection.

Let's both be *really* careful that we don't stick words in each other's mouth's, and be sure you aren't confusing my position with Alfven's position. I don't believe there is any *physical* difference between what you're calling "magnetic reconnection" and "circuit reconnection". Alfven believed (and stated on numerous occasions) that MR theory was "pseudoscience". Are we both clear on the distinction between my position and Alfven?

Before I go any further, I want to make sure we're clear on where I stand vs. where Alfven stands.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom