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Tags homeopathy , in vitro

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Old 29th December 2010, 05:42 AM   #1
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Rustum Roy is dead, but homeopathy has found some new "scientists".

This paper has just been brought to my attention at Quackometer.

Could a real physical scientist please give it the kicking it no doubt deserves?

What is the likeliest thing they have done wrong?
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Old 29th December 2010, 06:45 AM   #2
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There is no need to criticize it. I can summarize it : "our dilution/sample material from manifacturer were badly done and instead of 200C we only diluted to 6C, then our very dirty dilution method left contamination of the starting material at a stable concentration". How one could see that as a defense of homeopathy , I do wonder. To me it just looks like it is a demonstration of very sloppy method to make the dilution (and that is at the best case, using Hanlon razor).

Last edited by Aepervius; 29th December 2010 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 29th December 2010, 06:55 AM   #3
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I couldn't find in the methods what they used as a control for contamination. How do they know what a non-homoeopathic sample would contain?
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Old 29th December 2010, 07:18 AM   #4
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Orac has already covered it:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...cluding_th.php

I've also seen several articles in the Indian press, all of them claiming that this paper (or the scientists involved) have shown that homoeopathy "work[s] on the principle of nanotechnology", which the paper doesn't actually say, and all of them, for some reason, referencing Tom Dolphin's comment. I wonder if there was some sort of press release involved.
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Old 29th December 2010, 07:31 AM   #5
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I notice that, while they describe a Hahnemanian preparation process they were shown at "a reputed manufacturer", and rely on this for their explanation of the continuing contamination (particles of metal get caught up in "nanobubbles", caused by succussion, at the top of the solution, and it is this part of the solution that is transferred into the next dilution) as far as I can see they don't state the method used in the preparation of the remedies they actually used. These were at 30C and 200C. It seems to be usual practice for 200C remedies to be prepared using the Korsakov method, and I wouldn't be surprised if 30c remedies are not also often prepared using this method.

I suppose this would raise an alternative explanation for these heavy particulate remedies - that the particles settled to the bottom of the tube and got stuck there when it was emptied.*

Presumably their explanation would only apply to insoluble substances such as the metallic remedies they tested. It doesn't really seem to give much help to homoeopathy, even at face value.

*ETA: AKA Kumar's "inadequate rinsing" theory.
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Last edited by Mojo; 29th December 2010 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 29th December 2010, 07:45 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I notice that, while they describe a Hahnemanian preparation process they were shown at "a reputed manufacturer", and rely on this for their explanation of the continuing contamination (particles of metal get caught up in "nanobubbles", caused by succussion, at the top of the solution, and it is this part of the solution that is transferred into the next dilution) as far as I can see they don't state the method used in the preparation of the remedies they actually used. These were at 30C and 200C. It seems to be usual practice for 200C remedies to be prepared using the Korsakov method, and I wouldn't be surprised if 30c remedies are not also often prepared using this method.

I suppose this would raise an alternative explanation for these heavy particulate remedies - that the particles settled to the bottom of the tube and got stuck there when it was emptied.*

Presumably their explanation would only apply to insoluble substances such as the metallic remedies they tested. It doesn't really seem to give much help to homoeopathy, even at face value.

*ETA: AKA Kumar's "inadequate rinsing" theory.
Who knew Kumar was the bleeding edge of homeopathic research?
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Old 29th December 2010, 08:14 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Orac has already covered it:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...cluding_th.php

I've also seen several articles in the Indian press, all of them claiming that this paper (or the scientists involved) have shown that homoeopathy "work[s] on the principle of nanotechnology", which the paper doesn't actually say, and all of them, for some reason, referencing Tom Dolphin's comment. I wonder if there was some sort of press release involved.
Thanks, Mojo. Orac takes on those dirty jobs so we don't have to.

It's a pity. I rather liked the idea that homeopathic serial dilution could create new gold particles de novo. I got lost trying to choose between just making myself stinking rich or using my gold glut to systematically devalue every commodity price and undermine the New World Order.
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Old 29th December 2010, 10:40 AM   #8
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I didn't read the paper fully (I have better things to do) but Orac did and he points out that they did use control solutions of ethanol and distilled water. But not the solutions the manufacturers use. So we are no further on, what a waste of time.
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Old 29th December 2010, 10:56 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
I didn't read the paper fully (I have better things to do) but Orac did and he points out that they did use control solutions of ethanol and distilled water. But not the solutions the manufacturers use. So we are no further on, what a waste of time.
As ever, with tosh like this, the most amazing thing is that an adult human being actually sat down and planned this experiment and thought it was a good idea. Then some other people, who are presumably capable of washing dressing and feeding themselves, reviewed it for publication and saw no problems.
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"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park)
Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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Old 29th December 2010, 12:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Thanks, Mojo. Orac takes on those dirty jobs so we don't have to.

It's a pity. I rather liked the idea that homeopathic serial dilution could create new gold particles de novo. I got lost trying to choose between just making myself stinking rich or using my gold glut to systematically devalue every commodity price and undermine the New World Order.
The NWO advocates Plutonium Credit Cards.
They really do burn a hole in your pocket.
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Old 29th December 2010, 02:26 PM   #11
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Did a google search of the first author and only found information on the second here http://www.biomedexperts.com/Profile...yesh_R_Bellare. Looks like they are not very experienced.
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Old 30th December 2010, 05:17 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
This paper has just been brought to my attention at Quackometer.

Could a real physical scientist please give it the kicking it no doubt deserves?

What is the likeliest thing they have done wrong?
Ummm....this actually undermines homeopathy. If remnants of the original preparation are responsible for the effects, then it only highlights the main problem - their starting ingredients do not have the effects they claim.

Linda
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Old 30th December 2010, 07:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
There is no need to criticize it. I can summarize it : "our dilution/sample material from manifacturer were badly done and instead of 200C we only diluted to 6C, then our very dirty dilution method left contamination of the starting material at a stable concentration". How one could see that as a defense of homeopathy , I do wonder. To me it just looks like it is a demonstration of very sloppy method to make the dilution (and that is at the best case, using Hanlon razor).

pretty much this.

chikramane, suresh, bellare, and kane seem to be morons.

what happens is that the starting material imprints upon the polar molecules of either the alcohol or the water.

like it or not it's real

Last edited by meow; 30th December 2010 at 07:15 PM. Reason: :not:
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Old 31st December 2010, 04:15 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by meow View Post
pretty much this.

chikramane, suresh, bellare, and kane seem to be morons.

what happens is that the starting material imprints upon the polar molecules of either the alcohol or the water.

like it or not it's real
Or the lactose, don't forget the lactose. And then they forget when convenient, otherwise everything would have a poo and pee imprint, right?
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Old 31st December 2010, 04:30 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
As ever, with tosh like this, the most amazing thing is that an adult human being actually sat down and planned this experiment and thought it was a good idea. Then some other people, who are presumably capable of washing dressing and feeding themselves, reviewed it for publication and saw no problems.
There's your source of misunderstanding. If the report came from Indian sources, don't expect anything sensible, reliable or "adult" to be associated with it. In a land of rampant superstition, such reports are actually considered "real science". The fact that it is groundless hype based on hysterical hand-waving and self-promotion simply gets ignored.
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Old 31st December 2010, 04:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by meow View Post
what happens is that the starting material imprints upon the polar molecules of either the alcohol or the water.
No it doesn't. This is utter rubbish and you know it.

Quote:
like it or not it's real
Please explain why you are not trolling.
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Old 1st January 2011, 07:42 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
As ever, with tosh like this, the most amazing thing is that an adult human being actually sat down and planned this experiment and thought it was a good idea.
I think you misuse the words 'planned' and 'experiment'. What frequently seems to happen is that they do something (I hesitate to call it an experiment), like what they see and then decide to write about it declaring it supports what they knew all along...

No planning or experiment required.
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Old 1st January 2011, 09:20 AM   #18
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Does anyone fancy the idea of a Letter to the Editor like Rolfe et al did a while ago?

Homeopathy pretends to be a real journal, we should challenge their standards in their own pages.
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Old 1st January 2011, 09:34 AM   #19
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Does anyone fancy the idea of a Letter to the Editor like Rolfe et al did a while ago?

Homeopathy pretends to be a real journal, we should challenge their standards in their own pages.
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"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park)
Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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