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Tags Amanda Knox , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 31st January 2011, 04:43 AM   #3361
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Fine View Post
____________________

People speaking of "disco buses" may be referring to taxis, such as this one, which serves Perugian Discos, Red zone ,Country,Poco Loco,Mammut,La Villa,
Tu candela ,Velvet, Gradiska.............: Disco

///
No, this is a private taxi service, which will pickyou up from wherever you want. It's distinct from the shuttle bus services, which are laid on by the clubs themselves, and which only pick up and drop off at Piazza Grimana.

////
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Old 31st January 2011, 04:44 AM   #3362
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Originally Posted by treehorn View Post
Mais oł sont les neiges d' antan?

It looks as though the 'Q.E.D. set' has left the 'LOL set' to fend for themselves.
With which of those sets does the [403] set intersect ?

But seriously, any comments about the recent developments? What message did the prosecution make by jumping in protest against more detailed testing of the knife?
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Old 31st January 2011, 04:45 AM   #3363
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
1. Bruce Fisher says that there were no discos open on November 1, 2007. False.
2. Witnesses saw RG in a disco on November 1, 2007, in Perugia. You have no evidence that a bus did not stop at that location.
3. You concede that some discos were open on November 1, 2007.
4. You insist that no disco buses were operating on November 1, 2007 but present no evidence of this.
5. No one on this forum has seen any evidence regarding the differences between the city, tourist or disco buses as they were in 2007.

Yes, it is quite tiresome that you provide zero evidence for your claims.

Clear now?

You clearly have significant comprehension problems in this area (coupled with major geographic difficulties), so conversation over.
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Old 31st January 2011, 04:58 AM   #3364
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For the geographically/intellectually challenged:

http://www.etoile54.com/consolle.html

Click the "contatti" link, and a popup comes up showing the address.

The club is situated off the Montebello exit of the main E45 road. It's actually South of the town of Montebello itself, and is about 5 or 6 miles outside the city of Perugia (although it still has a Perugia postal address).

Of course, those who still find themselves "challenged" by this information can always call the club directly, and ask them to email precise directions. Or they can continue to wallow in their own ignorance.....
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:02 AM   #3365
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, this is a private taxi service, which will pickyou up from wherever you want. It's distinct from the shuttle bus services, which are laid on by the clubs themselves, and which only pick up and drop off at Piazza Grimana.

////
Funny how everytime Curatolo said something, he either changes his mind or it had to be partially interpreted differently.

I mean guilters need to face reality over Curatolo.
The guy is crazy, eventhough I know someone at PMF has a mancrush on him.
Inability to consistently give the same version of events of his supposed eyewitness testimony.
The guy is a Heroin dealer. If your wondering how serious an offense Curatolo committed. Here are some us state laws covering Heroin. He would charged with each offense he was caught with on tape.
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/mississippi/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/louisiana/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/texas/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/washington/
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:05 AM   #3366
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Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
Remember one thing about that bus. If I remember correctly SA was caught in a lie about when those pictures/video were taken.

Oh, I remember it well
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:06 AM   #3367
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Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
Funny how everytime Curatolo said something, he either changes his mind or it had to be partially interpreted differently.

I mean guilters need to face reality over Curatolo.
The guy is crazy, eventhough I know someone at PMF has a mancrush on him.
Inability to consistently give the same version of events of his supposed eyewitness testimony.
The guy is a Heroin dealer. If your wondering how serious an offense Curatolo committed. Here are some us state laws covering Heroin. He would charged with each offense he was caught with on tape.
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/mississippi/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/louisiana/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/texas/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/washington/
US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Edited by kmortis:  Removed off-topic remark

Last edited by kmortis; 1st February 2011 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Removed to comply with Rule 11
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:11 AM   #3368
Chris C
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Edited by kmortis:  Removed off-topic remark
Well in Italy, 1 count of selling narcotics(heroin) 6 to 20 years.

Last edited by kmortis; 1st February 2011 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Removed previously moderated content
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:11 AM   #3369
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
US state laws have great relevance, don't they?
Lol. Yes I've noticed there are great differences in how heroin trafficking is treated by law enforcement world wide. How on Earth could it be relevant to show that another Western democracy has harsh penalties?
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:20 AM   #3370
Chris C
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Edited by kmortis:  Removed off-topic remark
Well I'm sure you filed a ticket. But I'll tell you why I brought it up. How many counts is Curatolo facing for selling Heroin for 3 months. At 6 to 20 years a pop, I'd say he doesn't have much choice but to do and say whatever Mignini wanted.

Last edited by kmortis; 1st February 2011 at 12:38 PM. Reason: Removed previously moderated content
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:25 AM   #3371
Katody Matrass
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
US state laws have great relevance, don't they?
Do you mean dealing heroin is not a serious crime in Italy? That would be quite surprising, isn't it? In your opinion it doesn't weigh on Toto's credibility as a witness? I'd say such opinion defies common sense and begs for some further explaining.

Edited by kmortis:  Removed off-topic remark
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Last edited by kmortis; 1st February 2011 at 12:38 PM. Reason: Removed previously moderated content and response to same
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:40 AM   #3372
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
For the geographically/intellectually challenged:
But you haven't proven that Domus isn't 5 or 6 miles out of Perugia, too. What's 5 miles for Rudy to walk?

And even if it was in Perugia, let's say on Piazza Morlacchi (although you have no shred of evidence about it, don't you?) which is 300 m from Piazza Grimana, it doesn't mean that there were no buses there taking for a ride crowds unwilling to walk that 300 m, huh?
See? I destroyed your argument.
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Old 31st January 2011, 05:44 AM   #3373
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Originally Posted by Katody Matrass View Post
But you haven't proven that Domus isn't 5 or 6 miles out of Perugia, too. What's 5 miles for Rudy to walk?

And even if it was in Perugia, let's say on Piazza Morlacchi (although you have no shred of evidence about it, don't you?) which is 300 m from Piazza Grimana, it doesn't mean that there were no buses there taking for a ride crowds unwilling to walk that 300 m, huh?
See? I destroyed your argument.
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Old 31st January 2011, 06:22 AM   #3374
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Originally Posted by Kaosium View Post
[/hilite]

Just curious, what were the main reasons you thought they were more likely to be guilty? I recall you said it was the Massei report that changed your mind, do you remember just what it was that tipped the scales for you?
I always thought the DNA evidence was weak but just the shear volume of other evidence, primarily the crazy behavior and contradictory statements made by the two of them was a strong indicator of guilt. My initial reading of the Google translated Massei report of which I had a fairly early copy gave me a bad impression on his treatment of the three super-witnesses. The arguments he presented were one sided and his reasoning was not convincing. At this point I started to look into the witnesses more carefully and over time with some research and the counter arguments presented in both appeals I saw a confirmation of this as well as many other problems. I came to the conclusion that the court did not render a fair judgment and did not even attempt to give much of the defense position much less show why the court believed the prosecution over the defense on some of the issues.

I did think initially that Massei did an excellent job presenting the break in as staged. The break-in as well as Amanda's email to everyone and her forgotten call to Mom were the biggest indicators of guilt to me.

ETA: Shortly after I had Google translated the Massei report I became curious and was able to obtain copies of the appeals. I regret not making the Italian versions as well as my Google translations public as soon as I had them. I also regret that I did not have the resources to get a human translation done. I believe if I had started earlier I could have seen this accomplished by volunteers much as PMF did in their translation of the Massei report.

Last edited by RoseMontague; 31st January 2011 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 07:00 AM   #3375
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Some helpful poster sent me these links to pictures of buses in Perugia. Still confused on the color coding.

http://www.redbubble.com/people/phil...ift-simulation

http://www.perugiaonline.com/easy/umbria_buspgus.html

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...81476160RvYkXm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradydorman/4344788118/
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Old 31st January 2011, 07:15 AM   #3376
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post

The third link shows an inter-town bus, which only leaves from the Perugia central bus station, so that's out of the equation.

The last link shows the most current livery for APM municipal buses. It appears that between 2007 and 2010 APM phased out the yellow colour for municipal buses in favour of light blue. In 2007, I believe that the buses were yellow.

Either way, the municipal buses are clearly easy to distinguish from the white, unmarked buses that the out-of-town discos used to shuttle people from Piazza Grimana to and from the discos.
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Old 31st January 2011, 07:35 AM   #3377
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Is this what one would refer to as a tourist bus?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30800988@N08/5181998934/

I suppose in the dark it could be confusing.


Here is one of the city busses near the square: (link)

Last edited by Dan O.; 31st January 2011 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 07:36 AM   #3378
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Originally Posted by Kaosium View Post
where he seemed upset no one would understand why the Italian Courts would be outraged when we didn't hand over our CIA agents they convicted in absentia.
I don't blame him. We've signed an extradition treaty with Italy, which in theory means we trust their justice system do much that we do not review cases prior to acting on them. The same way that a Virginia court is considered to have done its job in Michigan without a need for review of a Michigan court.

The fact that Italy would try and convict in absentia is good reason for the USA to renounce our extradition treaty not to violate it. Which is essentially my opinion that neither Italy nor the USA has enough faith in each other's justice systems for us to have an extradition treaty. Because of this lack of faith, neither side honors them fully and we have an ad-hoc situation where no one can act in confidence. We probably should sign some sort of more limited extradition treaty which grants option review and just puts in place processes. Essentially what Senator Cantwell advocated for in this case.

Had an extradition treaty like that with processes that both sides were genuinely willing to follow existed Mignini wouldn't have had to make up a story that Raffaele and Amanda had a murder spree in mind and thus needed to be held, which is why they ended up breaking so many other laws. So in a sense Yummi is right.

Last edited by CDHost; 31st January 2011 at 07:38 AM. Reason: A -> a
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Old 31st January 2011, 07:44 AM   #3379
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Originally Posted by CDHost View Post
I don't blame him. We've signed an extradition treaty with Italy, which in theory means we trust their justice system do much that we do not review cases prior to acting on them. The same way that a Virginia court is considered to have done its job in Michigan without a need for review of a Michigan court.

The fact that Italy would try and convict in absentia is good reason for the USA to renounce our extradition treaty not to violate it. Which is essentially my opinion that neither Italy nor the USA has enough faith in each other's justice systems for us to have an extradition treaty. Because of this lack of faith, neither side honors them fully and we have an ad-hoc situation where no one can act in confidence. We probably should sign some sort of more limited extradition treaty which grants option review and just puts in place processes. Essentially what Senator Cantwell advocated for in this case.

Had an extradition treaty like that with processes that both sides were genuinely willing to follow existed Mignini wouldn't have had to make up a story that Raffaele and Amanda had a murder spree in mind and thus needed to be held, which is why they ended up breaking so many other laws. So in a sense Yummi is right.
See its an extradition treaty. For someone to be extradited it has to be a crime in both countries. If our government views what they did as not being a crime, they dont have to extradite them. They can absentee convict all they want. If the US government rules they committed no crime, then they dont have to extradite them.

Last edited by Chris C; 31st January 2011 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 07:55 AM   #3380
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Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
See its an extradition treaty. For someone to be extradited it has to be a crime in both countries. If our government views what they did as not being a crime, they dont have to extradite them.
What you are taling about is a "dual criminality" restriction, and I checked it is the very first restriction in our extradition treaty. The 23 agents were convicted of kidnapping. I don't know that the US has ever declared that it is legal for the CIA to grab someone off the streets and fly them to Egypt for torture. If they did then yes, we have no obligation to extradite.

Though if any of those agents were in the military, we do have a military exemption. And we probably should get back on topic. Though, rather then constantly having to worry about moderation, I started a JREF offtopic thread on my board which people can use for any of these discussions. This is meant to just be a big bin for that sort of rollover topics, feel free to start using it.

Last edited by CDHost; 31st January 2011 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:02 AM   #3381
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Originally Posted by RWVBWL View Post
Hi all,
Regarding Curatolo:
The next day, he arrived at his faithful piazza around 12:00pm and eventually around 1:30 or so saw the carabinieri pass, and the police, etc etc. and stated that he watched them at the scene including the CSI people dressed in the full-white suits.

When I 1st found this out and wrote of it,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...09#post5986509
I wondered how come Antonio did not get up off his park bench and head over to talk with the police. Since it had only happened last night, he could have told the police then that the dico buses were running last night and they maybe could have checked out this fact...

Strangely, 2 members of the pro-guilt community, Fulcanelli and Stilicho, did not agree with my thoughts on this, as you can see if you read past my link I posted.

I wonder something else though: With all of the police activity, surely 1 of them must have seen the local park bench bum hangin' out at his usual spot. Surely 1 of them deduced that it might be a good idea to ask him if he had seen or heard anything the night before when Meredith Kercher lost her life, don't you think?
Logical, organized and thorough are NOT three adjectives that come to mind when I think of the Perugia Police.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:12 AM   #3382
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Originally Posted by Bruce Fisher View Post
I know your intention is to try and prove that Curatolo is a credible witness with all of this discussion about the buses. He has already been discredited. You will hear about this shortly as the appeal progresses. You should probably move on to another topic. You got this one wrong.
This coming from someone who still has the lie on his website that, "all the discos were closed that night".
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:14 AM   #3383
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Originally Posted by CDHost View Post
What you are taling about is a "dual criminality" restriction, and I checked it is the very first restriction in our extradition treaty. The 23 agents were convicted of kidnapping. I don't know that the US has ever declared that it is legal for the CIA to grab someone off the streets and fly them to Egypt for torture. If they did then yes, we have no obligation to extradite.

Though if any of those agents were in the military, we do have a military exemption. And we probably should get back on topic. Though, rather then constantly having to worry about moderation, I started a JREF offtopic thread on my board which people can use for any of these discussions. This is meant to just be a big bin for that sort of rollover topics, feel free to start using it.
Its a gray area because the Italian government authorized it. The CIA agents were not acting alone. Just like if the government decided to use the FBI to take someone into custody in America. The CIA in Italy assisted the Italian government.

Last edited by Chris C; 31st January 2011 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:15 AM   #3384
Chris C
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
This coming from someone who still has the lie on his website that, "all the discos were closed that night".
Which discos were open?
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:18 AM   #3385
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
This coming from someone who still has the lie on his website that, "all the discos were closed that night".
The disco bus discussion is over. As you may have noticed upthread, people are just mocking you now. But by all means continue.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:20 AM   #3386
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You clearly have significant comprehension problems in this area (coupled with major geographic difficulties), so conversation over.
Your "conversation" with Alt+F4 reminded me of a lenthy exchange in the first continuation thread between Halides1 and Fiona concerning Jason Gilder. Fiona insisted Gilder was a computer programmer not a DNA forensic expert. Halides1 citing numerous articles and papers proved pretty clearly that Gilder was an expert in the field of DNA evidence evaluation. Fiona just kept referring to his degree and college record as though actual knowledge learned in your career development had no relevence.
One of the best examples I have seen of pure bull-headedness I have every seen - at least until recently.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:25 AM   #3387
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
This coming from someone who still has the lie on his website that, "all the discos were closed that night".

What is the context in talking about these discos? Do you even know or are you intentionally arguing a non sequitur?

Look! Here is a disco that was open:
BIG Disco Night - Friday, November 2, 2007
This proves that it was a lie!!!!!



ETA: Or perhaps you would rather believe what Barbie Nadeau wrote for CNN:
"Judge Hellman granted the defense's request to hear testimony from both the bus drivers and disco owners, who will testify that the discos were closed the night Kercher was murdered because of the religious All Saint's holiday."

Last edited by Dan O.; 31st January 2011 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:29 AM   #3388
Chris C
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
This coming from someone who still has the lie on his website that, "all the discos were closed that night".
What is a disco? Be specific
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:30 AM   #3389
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Originally Posted by Withnail1969 View Post
The disco bus discussion is over. As you may have noticed upthread, people are just mocking you now. But by all means continue.
I've proven my point to the lurkers and fencesitters.

1. The discos weren't all closed.
2. No one has presented any evidence that there were no buses in that area that night.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:33 AM   #3390
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Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
What is a disco? Be specific
Domus describes itself as a disco. Are you suggesting they don't know what business they are in?
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:33 AM   #3391
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
I've proven my point to the lurkers and fencesitters.

1. The discos weren't all closed.
2. No one has presented any evidence that there were no buses in that area that night.
We know the discos weren't all closed. Bruce Fisher was presumably referring to the only discos of any relevance to this discussion, the out-of-town discos.

Nobody needs to prove there weren't any buses in the area that night. Where did you get the idea that they do?
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:40 AM   #3392
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Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
See its an extradition treaty. For someone to be extradited it has to be a crime in both countries. If our government views what they did as not being a crime, they dont have to extradite them. They can absentee convict all they want. If the US government rules they committed no crime, then they dont have to extradite them.
Chris,
Technically, in this case, it is not whether there has been a crime committed by whether a conviction was properly obtained. The CIA agrents in question were charged with a crime - maybe numerous ones, but for simplicity's sake I will focus on kidnapping. It is a crime in both countries. Why then did the USA not extradite the agents?
Because the CONVICTION was invalid. In the USA a defendant has the basic right to confront his/her accuser in the court at trial. In abstentia trials are not allowed (a defendant may be disruptive in court and be removed but his legal representative remains and the trial continues). In this case, the Italian "conviction" was not a conviction within the meaning of US law and precedent - therefore the extradiction request was ignored.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:41 AM   #3393
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Domus describes itself as a disco. Are you suggesting they don't know what business they are in?
You are arguing there were buses getting people from Piazza Grimana to Domus, right? Do you happen to know where the Domus is located ?
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Last edited by Katody Matrass; 31st January 2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:43 AM   #3394
Katody Matrass
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
I've proven my point to the lurkers and fencesitters.
I doubt anyone of them have any idea what the disco buses issue is about. Just ask Lionking.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:49 AM   #3395
Chris C
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Originally Posted by Onofarar View Post
Chris,
Technically, in this case, it is not whether there has been a crime committed by whether a conviction was properly obtained. The CIA agrents in question were charged with a crime - maybe numerous ones, but for simplicity's sake I will focus on kidnapping. It is a crime in both countries. Why then did the USA not extradite the agents?
Because the CONVICTION was invalid. In the USA a defendant has the basic right to confront his/her accuser in the court at trial. In abstentia trials are not allowed (a defendant may be disruptive in court and be removed but his legal representative remains and the trial continues). In this case, the Italian "conviction" was not a conviction within the meaning of US law and precedent - therefore the extradiction request was ignored.
To the Italian judges it was kidnapping. Between the Italian Government and US government it was a transfer of a terrorist. Eventhough at a later date, they were unsure he was a terrorist. Transfer of prisoners isn't a crime in the US. Just because the Italian judges call it Kidnapping in Italy doesn't mean it would be called Kidnapping in the US. Though I do agree they have more than one reason to ignore the extradition request.
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Domus describes itself as a disco. Are you suggesting they don't know what business they are in?
Where is Domus?

Last edited by Chris C; 31st January 2011 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:50 AM   #3396
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Originally Posted by Katody Matrass View Post
You are arguing there were buses getting people from Piazza Grimana to Domus, right? Do you happen to know where the Domus is located ?
I genuinely think she doesn't even know what she's arguing. For someone in 2011 to be saying things like 'well maybe there was a bus to Domus - prove there wasn't' - demonstrates they haven't got the first idea about the case.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:50 AM   #3397
Alt+F4
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Originally Posted by Withnail1969 View Post
Bruce Fisher was presumably referring to the only discos of any relevance to this discussion, the out-of-town discos.
Even if Domus doesn't use buses because it is in the city center doesn't mean it's not of any relevance. Domus is where Rudy was seen after the murder (I think around 2:30am). That's important fact, his lack of remorse and sociopathic mentality.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:51 AM   #3398
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Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
Where is Domus?
3 Via del Naspo
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:53 AM   #3399
Alt+F4
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Originally Posted by Withnail1969 View Post
I genuinely think she doesn't even know what she's arguing. For someone in 2011 to be saying things like 'well maybe there was a bus to Domus - prove there wasn't' - demonstrates they haven't got the first idea about the case.
Nails you should really do your homework on this case, especially since you think Rudy's appearance at Domus is not relevant.
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Old 31st January 2011, 08:55 AM   #3400
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different discos for different folks

Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
This coming from someone who still has the lie on his website that, "all the discos were closed that night".
Alt+F4,

Maybe Bruce meant all of the large, outside-of-town discos were closed.
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