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Old 30th May 2010, 05:51 AM   #81
BillyJoe
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
In any case, I did not present my anecdote to discuss a possible diagnosis...
No, we're just trying to get something useful out of your anecdote.
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Old 30th May 2010, 07:13 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by BillyJoe View Post
Didn't think of that.

Steenkh:
Did you have a localised red tender swelling on your leg?
(Do you have varicose veins?)

But, apparently, superficial thrombophlebitis has been associated with deep vein thrombosis; and it has been associated with pulmonary embolus without invovlement of the deep veins:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281393/

So you may still have been lucky!
Yes, saphenous vein thrombosis is more worrisome, but that is not what he described. He also didn't really describe superficial thrombophlebitis - that's just what it looks like the first doctor was trying to diagnose.

The story is more consistent with a cyst, such as a popliteal cyst, interfering with the function of the gastrocnemius. Sometimes manipulation can reduce the cyst, although since it's likely to recur, it's not usually the treatment of choice. But some people are lucky.

Linda
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Old 31st May 2010, 02:09 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Well, if people have large amounts of cash in their wallets, and carry the wallet in a back pocket, they sit with one buttock higher than the other and cause strain on their spines. Chiropractic can help reduce this.
Brilliant!
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Old 17th July 2010, 12:04 PM   #84
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If one searches on google for chiropractic, chirobase and skepdic (both critical of chiro) come up on the first page. It has been suggested that that can be changed by logging on to a google account and clicking on the blue stars associated with each site http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/m...e.php?id=54777

I suppose we can work against them by logging on and clicking on the stars next to chirobase and skepdic. The procedure is described in the site to which I linked.
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Old 17th July 2010, 08:17 PM   #85
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Google does not like attempts to "game the system". Whether they would care about this, I don't know.
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Old 18th July 2010, 04:37 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Google does not like attempts to "game the system". Whether they would care about this, I don't know.
If they detect it, and block it, that will be fine; as long as they get both.
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Old 22nd July 2010, 10:22 AM   #87
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Another thing one can do is link chiro terms to skepdic and chirobase on one's own web page. http://jdc325.posterous.com/ahh-the-...s-want-to-play
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Old 3rd October 2010, 12:11 AM   #88
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Science Based Medicine has just published an interesting new article by Samuel Homola, DC, regarding the fictitious subluxation lesion:

Chiropractic Vertebral Subluxations: Science vs. Pseudoscience
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6839

Quote:
“Unlike the mysterious, undetectable and asymptomatic chiropractic ‘vertebral subluxation complex’ alleged to be a cause of disease, a real vertebral subluxation, that is, an orthopedic subluxation, can be a cause of mechanical and neuromusculoskeletal symptoms but has never been associated with organic disease…

A largely ignored landmark review of the literature by a Ph.D. and a chiropractor (Nansel and Szlazak), published in 1995, concluded that there is not a single appropriately controlled study to indicate that any dysfunction in structures of the spinal column is a cause of organic disease…

Unfortunately, the chiropractic profession in the United States continues to be defined by subluxation theory. Too few chiropractors are willing to ‘step out of line’ and announce that the theory (more accurately defined as a belief) is scientifically indefensible and should be dumped… the British Chiropractic Association advised its members to “refrain from making any reference to Vertebral Subluxation Complex in media to which their patients or the general public may have access,” adding that “this advice has no bearing on scope of practice”…

Without some identifying label or degree that distinguishes science-based chiropractors from subluxation-based chiropractors, medical physicians will continue to be reluctant to refer a patient to a chiropractor, lest they deliver a patient into the hands of a pseudoscientific practitioner whose philosophy embraces an anti-medical approach and endangers the patient...

It seems likely that subluxation-based chiropractic, like homeopathy and other belief systems, will be perpetuated to some degree by true believers…

Because the chiropractic profession seems unwilling to abandon these discredited concepts, reform of the state chiropractic practice acts to eliminate subluxation-based chiropractic practice may be the only viable solution to the perpetration of unscientific and unproved healthcare practices…

Good science-based chiropractors who do not subscribe to the vertebral subluxation theory and who use manipulation appropriately can offer a service of value. Unfortunately, such chiropractors are not easy to find.”

Despite the above, chiropractors still seem to be on a subluxation wild goose chase:
Quote:
The great subluxation debate: a centrist's perspective

Christopher J. Good DC, MAEd, Professor, University of Bridgeport College of Chiropractic, Bridgeport, CT 06604

ABSTRACT

Objective
This commentary describes the debate and some of the associated issues involving the subluxation construct.

Discussion
The long-standing debate regarding the chiropractic subluxation has created substantial controversy within the profession. Currently, this phenomenon can be compared with a country with a 2-party system that has a large silent majority sitting between the 2 factions. It is argued that the position held by those in the middle (the centrists) may be the most rational view when considering all of the available evidence. It is also suggested that the subluxation construct is similar to the Santa Claus construct in that both have a factual basis as well as social utility. Ultimately, the centrists must become proactive if they want to protect the profession and further advance the evidence in regard to the subluxation. They must not only engage in the debate, but fund the research that will investigate various aspects of the subluxation and then help disseminate this evidence to fellow doctors of chiropractic, other practitioners, health care policy makers, and society at large.

Conclusion
The role of subluxation in chiropractic practice, the progression of this debate, and the future of the profession will be directly determined by the role that centrists choose to play.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...3&searchtype=a
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Old 3rd October 2010, 06:42 AM   #89
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This
Quote:
Conclusion
The role of subluxation in chiropractic practice, the progression of this debate, and the future of the profession will be directly determined by the role that centrists choose to play.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...3&searchtype=a
is particularly rich. One would hope the progression would depend on the evidence.
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Old 13th October 2010, 01:25 PM   #90
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More criticism of chiropractic in the media:

Researchers advise parents not to take children to chiropractors
http://www.infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?id=59215

Quote:
Medical researchers Professor Shaun Holt and Andrew Gilbey have issued a strong warning against parents taking their children to see a chiropractor for any reason. Many chiropractic practices and organizations, in New Zealand and overseas, advocate routine spinal manipulation in infants and children, for conditions ranging from ear infections, colic and asthma to ADHD and even cancer.

"There is no plausible explanation why high-velocity manipulation of the spine can help children with these medical conditions, it is an extraordinary claim" said Professor Holt. "Given that this is a multibillion dollar industry, the lack of good research that has been undertaken is staggering. There is also evidence that many chiropractors advise against routine childhood immunizations, which is irresponsible.”

Andrew Gilbey said that “there are some serious safety concerns related to the unnecessary use of x-rays and the manipulation of childrens’ spines and so we advise parents to instead consult their family doctor who has been trained to recognize and treat a wide range of medical problems. In Canada, an undercover researcher reported that 4 out of 5 chiropractors found serious problems with the spine of a child and said that these required urgent chiropractic treatment, whereas an experienced paediatric orthopedic surgeon who also examined the girl found her to be perfectly healthy.”

Holt and Gilbey's advice echoes similar warnings issued by paediatricians overseas. The Australian Medical Association has stated that chiropractic care for children is a waste of money and inappropriate. They advise parents who are worried about any aspect of their children's health to consult a medical doctor.

Seems the message is slowly getting through.
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Old 3rd November 2010, 02:56 PM   #91
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Blue Wode notified me that there is a new report that strongly associates stroke (by bilateral vertebral artery dissection) with chiro http://tinyurl.com/2uden4f

It concerns a young woman who had a clear MRI of her arteries immediately before a stroke due to chiropractic manipulation.
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Old 4th November 2010, 07:08 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
Blue Wode notified me that there is a new report that strongly associates stroke (by bilateral vertebral artery dissection) with chiro http://tinyurl.com/2uden4f

It concerns a young woman who had a clear MRI of her arteries immediately before a stroke due to chiropractic manipulation.

Thank you for that, JJM.

Readers might also be interested to know that chiropractic is currently being heavily criticised at two other sources:

Subluxations: WHO said what...
http://skepticbarista.wordpress.com/...who-said-what/

Chiropractors at War with their Regulator, the GCC
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2010...r-the-gcc.html
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Old 18th December 2010, 06:34 AM   #93
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Readers may be interested to know that chiropractic professor, Stephen Perle, has attacked a recent paper by Professor Edzard Ernst:

'The self-importance of being Ernst'
http://smperle.blogspot.com/2010/12/...ing-ernst.html


The paper in question is this one:

Ernst E. Deaths after chiropractic: a review of published cases. Int J Clin Pract. 2010 Jul;64(8):1162-5.
http://mcdanielchiro.com/clients/484...practic_...pdf

(Note – Table 1. in the above link is published twice)


ETA. As I have all the relevant papers, I've left four comments on Prof. Perle's blog, but they've yet to be published.
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Old 18th December 2010, 07:30 AM   #94
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We've had an interesting definition of the chiropractic subluxation advanced by a chiropractor over on the Quackometer blog (see posts dated 17th December, currently just above the bottom of the page).
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Old 18th December 2010, 10:16 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
More criticism of chiropractic in the media:

Researchers advise parents not to take children to chiropractors
http://www.infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?id=59215




Seems the message is slowly getting through.
Meh, chiros will just say they are getting bashed for being "competition" to, well, science based medicine... Chiros are victims doncha know (in a way they are, as they got a very expensive bogus education that is really useless except for getting to call themselves a doctor and being taught some really good marketing).
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Old 19th December 2010, 05:47 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
Readers may be interested to know that chiropractic professor, Stephen Perle, has attacked a recent paper by Professor Edzard Ernst:

'The self-importance of being Ernst'
http://smperle.blogspot.com/2010/12/...ing-ernst.html


The paper in question is this one:

Ernst E. Deaths after chiropractic: a review of published cases. Int J Clin Pract. 2010 Jul;64(8):1162-5.
http://mcdanielchiro.com/clients/484...practic_...pdf

(Note – Table 1. in the above link is published twice)


ETA. As I have all the relevant papers, I've left four comments on Prof. Perle's blog, but they've yet to be published.

It’s been over 24 hours and my comments still haven’t appeared on Professor Stephen Perle’s blog, so in the interests of public debate I am posting them here:
Quote:
Stephen Perle wrote:

“In the results section of the paper he [Professor Ernst] has a paragraph that is, to say the least, very interesting when one thinks of the purpose. Herein he describes "the testimony of the chiropractor Preston Long for a court in Connecticut recently listed the family names of nine victims." Ernst cites this with: "Presentation by Dr Preston Long DC to State of Connecticut. Connecticut State Board of Chiropractic Examiners. Hartford Connecticut. 25 October 2009. There was never a hearing before the State Board of Chiropractic Examiners on October 25, 2009. The hearing was in January of 2010 and because Long did not appear to under oath attest to his pre-submitted testimony it was, in accord with the procedural rules in CT not accepted and thus not part of the public record. One wonders how does Ernst get this document when it was not public. I have a copy as I was on the witness list and these pre-submitted testimony documents I was told were not to be made public until the board hearing.”
My comment:

If you read the ‘Methods’ section of Professor Ernst’s original paper he said that “several experts were also contacted for further data”. Perhaps that is how he managed to see Preston Long’s document. [If so, the 25 October 2009 reference possibly represents the date he was in contact with him.]

Stephen Perle wrote:

“What is the common feature of Ernst's citation of these deaths whose information or rather misinformation was obtained from a web site and the deaths reported by Long? Neither of these data sources were from the scientific literature. In his reply to our letter Ernst says "These cases were, however, merely added for completeness and not included in my total number of 26 cases reported in my review." Completeness? So adding people who didn't die after chiropractic spinal manipulation and weren't in the scientific literature adds completeness to a review of the scientific literature?”
My comment:

Note that Professor Ernst said in his Introduction that:
Quote:
“A responsible approach to serious therapeutic risks, however, requires an open discussion of the facts. In this review I aimed to provide the basis for such a discussion by summarising all fatalities which occurred after chiropractic spinal manipulation and were published in the medical literature.”
Note that he didn’t say he would *exclusively* look at the scientific literature. Indeed, in the Methods section he was more specific, informing us that:
Quote:
“Electronic searches were conducted in the following electronic databases: Medline, Embase, AMED, Cochrane Library (September 2009)… In addition, our own departmental files and the bibliographies of the articles thus located were searched. Several experts were also contacted for further data. Case reports were included if they provided information on human patients who had died after receiving one or more treatments from a chiropractor.”
He goes on to say that many other fatalities seemed to have remained unpublished and gives examples of the testimony of Preston Long DC (whom it is likely that he contacted personally) which listed the family names of nine victims. Dr Long also stated that ‘many others are unknown hidden behind legal agreements of silence’. Professor Ernst then cites ‘names’ of further North American fatalities from the website http://www.whatstheharm.com

Stephen Perle wrote:

“Wenban has detailed the commonality of wrongly ascribing adverse events of manipulation to the care of doctor’s of chiropractic.”
My comment:

As Professor Ernst says in his response to Whedon et al, his original review contests that with good references. He also says he can not reasonably be expected to know of the ‘personal correspondence’ that Wenban and Bennett cited and asserts that the small discrepancies in numbers (about which they argue) are almost irrelevant.

Stephen Perle wrote:

“Ernst says Cassidy's study has been repeatedly criticized for being flawed. The key word is repeatedly. This obviously repeatedly means more than once, which means that there must be more than one reference cited for that criticism. In fact, I think most would agree that repeatedly probably means many more than one. Well there is only one reference cited and what is that: Ernst E. Vascular accidents after chiropractic spinal manipulation: myth or reality? Perfusion 2010; 23: 73–4. No it can't be the only criticism in the scientific literature (not the blogosphere mind you - this is science we are talking about here) that Ernst can find is his own (now you get the idea about the title for the blog).”
My comment

Professor Ernst did not qualify where the study had been repeatedly criticised. [He did not imply that it had been repeatedly criticised in the scientific literature.] Further, if you’re going to discount the blogosphere, then your blog post here should not, in any way, be taken seriously by the scientific community.

Stephen Perle wrote:

“Now to his critique. I won't reproduce it here…”
My comment

Why not? For anyone wishing to read it, there’s a link to the full text of it in the chiropractic section of my website at http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropracti...r-reality.html

It really is quite revealing.

BTW, I think readers should be told that Dohos and Tragiannidis, of the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki’s Medical School in Greece, wrote to the International Journal of Clinical Practice in support of Ernst’s paper:
Quote:
“…we agree with Professor Ernst on the following points
  • Vascular accidents after upper spinal manipulation can cause severe vertebral artery dissections;
  • Numerous deaths have been associated with chiropractic neck manipulations;
  • Many other cases are unknown behind legal agreements of silence

Therefore the risks of chiropractic neck manipulations by far outweigh their benefits.”

Ref: Critique of review of deaths after chiropractic, 3. Dokos C, Tragiannidis A. Int J Clin Pract. 2011 Jan;65(1):103-4.

I also think readers should be made aware of the following in the US:

Quote:
"The National Quality Forum lists 28 ‘never events’ healthcare mistakes that should never happen and need to be reported. Death or serious disability from spinal manipulation is listed as no.16. But chiropractors do not have to report this because they have a loophole. The National Quality Forum demands it of clinics and hospitals but no reporting is mandated for individual doctor's offices where 99% of spinal manipulation is done. Chiropractors generally do not practise in hospitals or clinics."

Ref: Britt Harwe, open letter to the Editor, Focus on Alternative and Complementary Therapies, Volume 15, Issue 1, pages 87-88, March 2010.

Also, with regard to Stephen Perle’s criticism of one of Professor Ernst’s critiques:

Quote:
...let's look at his cited critique

Ernst E. Vascular accidents after chiropractic spinal manipulation: myth or reality? Perfusion 2010; 23: 73–4.

Don't search too hard for this in PubMed. It's not there. The journal name is wrong. I know newbies sometimes get their citations wrong especially when they don't know the journal too well. Here is the proper citation.

Ernst E. Vascular accidents after chiropractic spinal manipulation: Myth or reality? Verlag Perfusion GmbH. 2010;23:73-4.

What do I know about http://www.verlag-perfusion.de/html/Perfusion.htm
If you look at their web site you'll see it is a German publication and the first editor listed is...Ernst. So I guess he's unfamiliar with the proper name for the journal.

...someone at Twitter has just pointed out that Professor Perle apparently can't seem to distinguish between a journal title and the name of a publisher.
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Old 25th February 2011, 05:32 PM   #97
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Questions for David Cassidy

I am sure that JJM and the JREF moderators will not mind my posting the following here in the interests of public debate and as a permanent reference resource.


On 23rd February a chiropractic podcaster, Brett L. Kinsler*, tweeted that he had booked American Chiropractic Association Vice President, Keith Overland, and chiropractic stroke researcher, J. David Cassidy, for his On The Other Hand podcast, and invited people to send in their questions for them.

*In addition to being a podcaster, Dr. Kinsler describes himself as a skeptical chiropractor and blogger who “separates crap from credible in chiropractic, altmed and health”.

Podcast: http://ontheotherhand.podbean.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/BrettKinsler
Web: http://www.rochesterchiro.com


Dr Kinsler has kindly agreed to ask chiropractor stroke researcher, J. David Cassidy, one of my questions which is:

Why, after having admitted that he had manipulated the neck of a woman and caused a stroke (http://www.chirowatch.com/Chiro-stro...120stroke.html ), did Cassidy change his mind that he hadn’t caused a stroke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkZQl...ature=youtu.be )?
NB. Although he cited a study which he co-authored [Cassidy JD, Boyle E, Cote P et al. Risk of vertebrobasilar stroke and chiropractic care: results of a populatin-based case-control and case-crossover study. Spine 2009;33(4S):S176-S183] which apparently demonstrated that patients suffering from headache and neck pain were no more likely to suffer from a stroke following a visit to a chiropractor than they are after a visit to a family medical physician, the study clearly stated “our results should be interpreted cautiously …we have not ruled out neck manipulation as a possible cause of some vertebrobasilar artery stroke.”
http://www.chirowatch.com/Stroke/201...%20reality.pdf

The other questions which I would like answered (which are lifted from an assortment of comments and questions I have read over the past three years) are as follows:


(1) The study (cited above) did not report the presenting complaint or whether neck manipulation was performed, so it was really meaningless. What if patients with early stroke symptoms are more likely to see a medical doctor than a chiropractor, and what if some of the patients had no pre-existing symptoms but saw a chiropractor for health maintenance and had strokes as a result? Does Cassidy agree that the data would look the same? If not, why not?
NB. The authors’ speculation that patients who saw chiropractors were already having a stroke is in no way supported by the data. And of course, chiropractors seeing a patient with stroke symptoms should have recognised them and sent the patient to a hospital. If they can't recognise stroke symptoms, they are likely doing neck manipulations on these already vulnerable patients, which can't be good. We have plenty of smoking gun cases where a patient with no headache or neck pain got neck manipulation and collapsed on the table with torn vertebral arteries. Chiropractors would have us believe that they would have collapsed anyway without manipulation, but they can't offer any supporting data. The very fact that they try to defend these cases with rationalisations and speculations rather than data just shows how far they are from science-based thinking.

(2) Does Cassidy agree that (i) non-hospitalised stroke cases, (ii) transient cerebral ischaemia, (iii) stroke patients residing in long-term care facilities, and (iv) patients not covered by the Ontario Health Insurance Plan or patients not reimbursed for consulting a chiropractor - who were all excluded from the analyses - could have had a significant influence on the results? If not, why not?


(3) Sub-analysis of Cassidy’s study shows that the odds ratio for a stroke within one day of chiropractic is 12.0 compared to 3.1 for the 30-day index period. As most strokes associated with chiropractic occur soon after treatment, does Cassidy agree that this suggests that the study’s 30-day index period may have weakened an already weak signal? If not, why not?
NB. In real medicine, it takes less data than this to bring a drug under scrutiny to decide if the benefits are worth the potential risks of a therapy.

(4) Most strokes occur spontaneously and relate to the elderly population. Cassidy’s analyses included all age groups. Would he agree this might have further diluted the weak signal? If not, why not?
NB. Sub-analysis of his data confirms that the odds ratios for patients below the age of 45 years are consistently higher than those for patients beyond that age.

(5) Cassidy et al took their evidence for a stroke from discharge notes. Such notes are notoriously unreliable and no data were provided to show how accurate these data were. Does Cassidy agree that this may even be more relevant for the verebrobasilar strokes, the type of stroke relevant in relation to chiropractic neck manipulation? If not, why not?


(6) Is Cassidy aware of the following (in the US), and will he take an active part in ensuring that the loophole is removed in the interests of patient safety?

Quote:
"The National Quality Forum lists 28 ‘never events’ healthcare mistakes that should never happen and need to be reported. Death or serious disability from spinal manipulation is listed as no.16. But chiropractors do not have to report this because they have a loophole. The National Quality Forum demands it of clinics and hospitals but no reporting is mandated for individual doctor's offices where 99% of spinal manipulation is done. Chiropractors generally do not practise in hospitals or clinics."

Ref: Britt Harwe, open letter to the Editor, Focus on Alternative and Complementary Therapies, Volume 15, Issue 1, pages 87-88, March 2010.

If anyone has any more questions for Dr Kinsler's two guests, please add them. I’ll be posting the podcast here as soon as it’s available online.
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Old 26th February 2011, 12:48 PM   #98
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Blue Wode, that is an excellent post. Anyone who is interested can also find criticism of Cassidy's "Spine" article here http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ and search for Cassidy. Especially follow the the post by Mark Crislip.

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Old 26th February 2011, 06:42 PM   #99
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Very interesting questions and I hope they are fully answered.
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Old 13th March 2011, 03:04 AM   #100
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Update

Chiropractor, Brett Kinsler, host of On The Other Hand podcast, has announced that the audio file of his interview with chiropractor and stroke researcher, Dr David Cassidy, has become damaged and he will have to reschedule another interview. See here:
http://twitter.com/#!/BrettKinsler

In the meantime, interested readers can listen to Dr Kinsler’s January 2011 interview with Professor Edzard Ernst via this link:
http://www.ebm-first.com/images/file...RD%20ERNST.pdf

In it, Professor Ernst defends himself against accusations of bias in his research, particularly in relation to his critical assessments of chiropractic. (For those who are not able to spare an uninterrupted 45 minutes to listen to the interview, the above link also contains a transcription of it.)
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Old 13th March 2011, 03:55 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
Chiropractor, Brett Kinsler, host of On The Other Hand podcast, has announced that the audio file of his interview with chiropractor and stroke researcher, Dr David Cassidy, has become damaged and he will have to reschedule another interview. See here:
http://twitter.com/#!/BrettKinsler

In the meantime, interested readers can listen to Dr Kinsler’s January 2011 interview with Professor Edzard Ernst via this link:
http://www.ebm-first.com/images/file...RD%20ERNST.pdf

In it, Professor Ernst defends himself against accusations of bias in his research, particularly in relation to his critical assessments of chiropractic. (For those who are not able to spare an uninterrupted 45 minutes to listen to the interview, the above link also contains a transcription of it.)

I like the response to the first question:
Quote:
KINSLER That chair position in the Department of Complementary Medicine that was set up by Sir Maurice Laing, who was a builder - whose wife, I believe, was helped by alternative medicine during a serious illness - and he wanted to set up this university chair to promote scientific investigation of alternative medicine. He was probably looking for positive proof, I would think, in alternative medicine.
ERNST No, he wasn’t that stupid. He actually was very clever, and he always told me that whatever this field needs, it needs critical assessment.
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Old 17th March 2011, 06:36 AM   #102
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Chiropractic for kids "witchcraft" and "child abuse"

In today's Australian press:
Quote:
MEDICAL experts have called on Canberra to shut down a university chiropractic clinic aimed at children amid claims the theories behind the practice are "no better than witchcraft" and using it on children is akin to child abuse.

More than half a dozen experts, many of them professors with international reputations, have written to voice concerns about the clinic at Melbourne's RMIT University, warning that chiropractic treatments for children's conditions are useless, at best, and "may well cause serious harm".

More...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226023550529

Good to see more people taking a stand. For more on chiropractic 'paediatrics', see here:
http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropracti...-children.html
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Old 26th March 2011, 03:45 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
Chiropractor, Brett Kinsler, host of On The Other Hand podcast, has announced that the audio file of his interview with chiropractor and stroke researcher, Dr David Cassidy, has become damaged and he will have to reschedule another interview. See here:
http://twitter.com/#!/BrettKinsler

Brett Kinsler's interview with David Cassidy is now available to listen to online here (approx 45 minutes):
http://ontheotherhand.podbean.com/20...-chiropractic/

I will be posting a full transcription of it shortly.
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Old 27th March 2011, 04:34 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
In today's Australian press:



Good to see more people taking a stand. For more on chiropractic 'paediatrics', see here:
http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropracti...-children.html
More about Loretta's campaign from the Australian Skeptics.
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Old 27th March 2011, 07:37 AM   #105
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Full transcript of Brett Kinsler's interview with chiropractic researcher, J. David Cassidy, DC, in which it is claimed that there is no increased risk of stroke with chiropractic:
http://www.ebm-first.com/images/file...ID-CASSIDY.pdf

More about the risks of chiropractic treatment here:
http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/risks.html
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Old 27th March 2011, 09:25 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
In the meantime, interested readers can listen to Dr Kinsler’s January 2011 interview with Professor Edzard Ernst via this link:
http://www.ebm-first.com/images/file...RD%20ERNST.pdf

In it, Professor Ernst defends himself against accusations of bias in his research, particularly in relation to his critical assessments of chiropractic. (For those who are not able to spare an uninterrupted 45 minutes to listen to the interview, the above link also contains a transcription of it.)
Hi Blue Wode. It was great to read the transcript first. When I decided to listen to the podcast, it was even better.

Kinsler has a nice speaking voice.

Other than that, what a clown. The postscript was... absurd.

I'll have to decompress for a while before I attempt to read any more.

Thanks for all of your efforts. Well done.
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Old 29th March 2011, 06:01 AM   #107
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Readers might also be interested in listenting to JD Cassidy’s testimony from the Connecticut informed consent hearings in 2010 in which he discussed his chiropractic stroke study:
http://www.ctn.state.ct.us/webstream...n&caption=true

[2hrs 50 mins]


And still on the subject of criticism of chiropractic, this is the 20-page document which has just been submitted to the Australian Federal Health Minister requesting closure of Melbourne's RMIT University's Chiropractic Paediatric Clinic:
http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress...nic-review.pdf

It's well worth a read.
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Old 8th April 2011, 12:38 PM   #108
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This Monday, 11th April, Brett Kinsler DC, will be conducting a podcast interview with a “responsible” doctor of chiropractic in Australia who is calling for investigation of the paediatric clinic at Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology (see my previous post above). I have suggested that he ask the following four questions:

Quote:
1. Has there ever been a study conducted to examine potentially damaging psychological effects in children resulting from them experiencing monthly (or even weekly) chiropractic treatment(s) for 'subluxations', 'leg-length inequalities', 'energy imbalances', or other delusional concepts?

2. A 2009 survey of chiropractors and parents of chiropractic pediatric patients, conducted by the International Chiropractic Pediatric Association http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19733815 indicated that the primary reason for chiropractic care of children was ‘wellness care’ (Alcantara 2009).

Has any good study ever demonstrated that chiropractors can do anything to generally help a child’s body heal itself or optimise their health?

3. In 2008, the Chiropractors Registration Board of Victoria proposed chiropractic standards that attack core beliefs and practices of subluxation-based chiropractic. The draft document, which was intended to apply to children up to the age of about 13, stated that "Non-indicated, unreliable and invalid diagnostic tools, instruments or methods and unnecessary diagnostic imaging procedures are to be avoided."
http://www.ncahf.org/digest09/09-05.html

It specified:

(i) Routine radiographic examination and re-examination of pediatric patients is not recommended without clear clinical justification. X-ray examinations should not be performed solely for the detection of biomechanical disorders of the spine, such as vertebral subluxations, postural analysis or for the monitoring of spinal curves or posture, unless for monitoring progressive scoliosis;
(ii) The use of . . . surface electromyography (SEMG) or thermography, is not considered appropriate in the diagnosis of childhood conditions;
(iii) There is currently an overwhelming lack of good quality scientific evidence to support the use of spinal manipulation in the treatment of most "Type O" conditions.

"Type O" stands for organic/visceral disorders (diseases) as opposed to "type M" (musculoskeletal/biomechanical disorders). SEMG and thermography have no legitimate diagnostic value, but many subluxation-based chiropractors use them to sell patients long courses of unnecessary treatment.

Whatever became of that draft document?

4. In 2010, a review of possible adverse events in children treated by manual therapy (B. Kim Humphreys, Chiropractic & Osteopathy) concluded that “There is currently insufficient research evidence related to adverse events and manual therapy.”
http://7thspace.com/headlines/346476..._a_review.html

With hardly any scientific evidence to support the use of chiropractic treatment for children, and a largely unknown complication rate, how can a responsible risk/benefit assessment ever be favourable?

If anyone has any more questions which they think should be asked, please post them.
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Old 10th April 2011, 03:26 AM   #109
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Excellent questions, Blue Wode.
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Old 20th April 2011, 11:20 AM   #110
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Bump. Anyone know anything about this site ? Some German chiroquack and his misaligned DNA scam?
Warning: site uses pops and "please don't leave" message boxes.
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Old 21st April 2011, 01:29 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Bump. Anyone know anything about this site ? Some German chiroquack and his misaligned DNA scam?
Warning: site uses pops and "please don't leave" message boxes.

Before you download that site, Pharyngula has the low down here
After that, I'm sure you won't want to bother.

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Old 21st April 2011, 02:50 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by BillyJoe View Post
Before you download that site, Pharyngula has the low down here
After that, I'm sure you won't want to bother.
I got as far as "Spiritual DNA" and gave up, anyone else manage better? I presume the rest was more utter junk?
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Old 22nd April 2011, 01:36 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Delscottio View Post
I got as far as "Spiritual DNA" and gave up, anyone else manage better? I presume the rest was more utter junk?
Yip.
Quote:
Planetary grid distortions of the 3470 BC "Babble-on" Massacre caused mutation in the human DNA template that shortened human life span, blocked higher sensory perception, caused loss of race memory, and scrambled our original language patterns, which are built upon DNA fire letter sequencing. Our race has been amnesiac, dying young, and "babbling on" in rhetorical conflict ever since. This historical event was recorded as the biblical "Tower of Babel" story.
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Old 13th May 2011, 04:24 AM   #114
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British Chiropractic Association president caught out?

Here is the transcript of the interview (conducted on 7th May 2011) between US chiropractor, Brett Kinsler, and responsible, skeptical, Australian chiropractor, John Reggars, who admits he’s “as mad as hell” regarding the large fundamentalist chiropractor element in the chiropractic profession and the claims they make, particularly in relation to treating children:

The crossroads of science vs. subluxation
http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropracti...bluxation.html

For more background see: http://static.rbi.com.au/common/cont...2_MAY13_11.pdf


Unfortunately, John Reggars seems to be wrong about the UK General Chiropractic Council’s (GCC) position statement on the ‘Vertebral Subluxation Complex’ (VSC). The part of the GCC’s position statement that said
Quote:
“It [VSC] is not supported by any clinical research evidence that will allow a claim to be made that it is the cause of disease or health concerns”
had the words “health concerns” deleted in August 2010 following pressure from the largely fundamentalist group, the Alliance of UK Chiropractors (AUKC). See here:
http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_fil...18August10.pdf


Reggars also says
Quote:
“…the British Chiropractic Association issued a joint statement at that point in time as well and said that “for many years the BCA has not supported the concept of the Vertebral Subluxation Complex”, which I thought was very interesting."
Well, it is interesting to note that the British Chiropractic Association appears to be working collaboratively with the Alliance of UK Chiropractors (AUKC). For example, the BCA’s President, Richard Brown, recently co-signed a letter of no confidence in the GCC along with the AUKC leadership:
http://adventuresinnonsense.blogspot...ns-launch.html

One has to assume that he did this whilst being fully aware of a survey of the AUKC’s members which produced the following results:
Quote:
88.2% felt that chiropractic should remain drug-free and that chiropractors should not pursue prescribing rights
82.9% felt that the Vertebral Subluxation was NOT an historical concept
95.4% thought that Philosophy should be taught in the Chiropractic Colleges
90.5% had found that in their experience Chiropractic was effective for conditions outside those mentioned in the Bronfort Report
83.9% answered NO to the question “Do you have confidence in the GCC to regulate the profession?”

Ref: http://tinyurl.com/36y3qwm

(It’s interesting to note that despite the 88.2% of the AUKC membership wanting chiropractic to remain drug-free, the BCA is currently seeking prescribing rights for its members.)

In addition to the above, Richard Brown wrote the following at the end of last year:
Quote:
"The BCA opposes restricting the scope of practice of chiropractors...[it] supports equality of opportunity and diversity and indeed it has been this rich diversity that has given the chiropractic profession its colour and vibrancy for nearly 85 years.”

http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropracti...-horizons.html

That doesn't seem to me to be representative of an association that claims it "has not supported the concept of the Vertebral Subluxation Complex" for many years.

With regard to fundamentalist, subluxation-based chiropractors, regulation does seem to be pretty much useless, not least due to the GCC being reactive rather than proactive. Significantly, the GCC’s guidance on claims made for the chiropractic VSC state that
Quote:
The chiropractic vertebral subluxation complex is an historical concept but it remains a theoretical model. It is not supported by any clinical research evidence that would allow claims to be made that it is the cause of disease
yet chiropractors can still, during their unmonitored clinical encounters with trusting patients, provide care based on the ‘preferences of the patient’ and the 'expertise' of chiropractor. See:
http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_fil...18August10.pdf

That effectively allows “in my experience” and “the patient likes it” to be considered along with evidence – all of which subtly condones the dubious practices of fundamentalist, subluxation-based chiropractors. (It’s also worth mentioning that it includes permitting them to put patients’ lives at risk by subjecting them to treatments that carry an unacceptable risk/benefit profile.)

IMO, this is an utterly unacceptable state of affairs for any health profession, let alone one that’s regulated by statute. I'm not sure what can be done about it.
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Old 13th May 2011, 08:07 AM   #115
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BCA President, Richard Brown, has responded to my similar comments on Professor Edzard Ernst’s blog at Pulse:
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.as...de=4129401&c=2

Quote:
@ Blue Wode
The BCA was invited to join the Alliance of UK Chiropractors (AUKC) but declined on the grounds that we felt a number of their values and tenets were unsupportable. There is therefore no allegiance as you claim. That said, it is correct that the four UK chiropractic associations worked collaboratively to represent the views of UK chiropractic profession in their correspondence with the General Chiropractic Council. This has led to a better mutual understanding of the relative positions of the regulator and the regulated.

From the BCA's perspective, we condone neither exaggerated marketing claims nor inappropriate use of x-rays. The legislation is clear and the BCA has issued guidance to its membership in these areas. It strongly condemns unethical practice and in 2009 set out its current vision, values and identity in a statement that was accepted by the membership.

Have you contacted either the Anglo-European College of Chiropractic or the Welsh Institute of Chiropractic and find out at first hand how UK chiropractors are being educated? There is a good deal of historical dogma being portrayed as being representative of chiropractic in the UK, and while some may retain outdated views, modern chiropractic has moved on and utilises a package of care, not simply a unidimensional approach. Manual therapy, including spinal manipulation, exercise prescription, therapeutic and lifestyle advice, myofascial dry needling and a strong biopsychosocial approach is entirely consistent with the NICE guidelines for back pain and is what BCA members are delivering. There are many examples of collaborative care with other healthcare professionals, so the characterisation that this blog attempts to make is neither in the best interests of healthcare nor of patients, who ought to be provided the opportunity to make choices informed by objective information, not flawed assumptons.
This is my reply (currently awaiting publication):
Quote:
@ Richard Brown
Modern chiropractic may have moved on, but historical chiropractic continues to thrive both in the UK and abroad. With that in mind, apart from issuing statements that the BCA strongly condemns unethical practice, what have you and other BCA members done over the last 10 years to ensure that those chiropractors who behave unethically are disciplined? As skeptical Australian chiropractor, John Reggars, said within the last week when asked about what could be done to help the chiropractic profession advance:

“…it starts with reporting colleagues. There’s been this culture within the chiropractic profession, and I’m not sure whether it is the same in other professions, where people are reluctant to report colleagues for misbehaviour… professional transgressions such…false and misleading advertising, over-servicing…”

http://www.ebm-first.com/images/file...REGGARS-DC.pdf

BTW, I don’t see any point in contacting either the Anglo-European College of Chiropractic or the Welsh Institute of Chiropractic to “find out at first hand how UK chiropractors are being educated”. FYI, a British neuroscientist recently wrote to the Welsh Institute of Chiropractic (WIOC), University of Glamorgan, to express his concerns about the claims and information available (or not, in some cases) on its official website. He requested clarification as to the website’s accuracy/intent. You can read his letter here:
http://sciencedigestive.blogspot.com...glamorgan.html

Apparently the WIOC’s reply, which hasn’t been published, was wholly evasive in that it sent a run down of the modules taught, but not what was actually in them.

One wonders if the WIOC has something to hide.
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Old 13th May 2011, 10:53 AM   #116
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When I was young and too naive to know any better, I visited a chiropractor to have my sore neck checked out. He claimed that my spine needed to be aligned and that he would have to start at the bottom. I was a strapping 22-year-old college athlete in prime health. I now realize that my neck was simply sore from over-doing it on the hard surfaces of basketball courts. There was nothing wrong with my spine. The chiropractor also "adjusted" my right hip, which had never given me any problems but has bothered for the past 31 years since he messed with it. I believe that chiropractors are quacks and that their practices should be shut down.
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Old 13th May 2011, 10:59 AM   #117
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Blue Wode, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your efforts on this.

Linda
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Old 23rd May 2011, 01:32 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
Here is the transcript of the interview (conducted on 7th May 2011) between US chiropractor, Brett Kinsler, and responsible, skeptical, Australian chiropractor, John Reggars, who admits he’s “as mad as hell” regarding the large fundamentalist chiropractor element in the chiropractic profession and the claims they make, particularly in relation to treating children:

The crossroads of science vs. subluxation
http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropracti...bluxation.html

For more background see: http://static.rbi.com.au/common/cont...2_MAY13_11.pdf


Unfortunately, John Reggars seems to be wrong about the UK General Chiropractic Council’s (GCC) position statement on the ‘Vertebral Subluxation Complex’ (VSC). The part of the GCC’s position statement that said


had the words “health concerns” deleted in August 2010 following pressure from the largely fundamentalist group, the Alliance of UK Chiropractors (AUKC). See here:
http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_fil...18August10.pdf

For those interested, John Reggar's article 'Chiropractic at the crossroads or are we just going around in circles?' has just been published:
http://chiromt.com/content/19/1/11/abstract

Provisional PDF here:
http://chiromt.com/content/pdf/2045-709X-19-11.pdf
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Old 23rd May 2011, 03:30 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
Blue Wode, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your efforts on this.

Linda
Ditto.

Blue Wode - you rock big time.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 03:40 AM   #120
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From the Pulse correspondence pages:
Quote:
Apologies!- a patient presented precipitously and I only sent half my message
I just hope it wasn't a vertebral artery dissection.
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