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#161 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,183
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The typically religiously conceited “You have a problem and 'we' can fix it” ploy - Pathetic!
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#162 | ||
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 311
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#163 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,183
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#165 | ||
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 52,381
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#166 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,183
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__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#167 |
Quixoticist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 5,001
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"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde |
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#169 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
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He has also pm'd me, suggesting I would be interested in how he has dealt with I Am The Scum's argument on his homepage. I declined, politely I think, saying I would be far more interested in seeing any rebuttals he has on this forum.
And that is true, so, RLBaty, if you are reading (and I suspect you are), please post your rebuttals here. I really would be interested. |
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My kids still love me. |
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#170 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
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If I were to rebut my own attack on I Am The Scum's argument, this is how I would do it.
Originally Posted by eerok
Originally Posted by eerok
Agreed, but I'm not sure if this is relevant to the argument either for or against.
Originally Posted by gayak
The more I think about it, the more I think that my nitpick with I Am The Scum's argument is simply an artifact of IATS trying to keep his premises short and thereby not fully explaining the key terms. Either that, or I am still misunderstanding. Regardless, as joobz has said, the exercise is worthwhile, at least for me, because I keep learning. Oh, and to joobz: I haven't added my kudos to other people's kudos, but I should have. Well done in this thread. |
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My kids still love me. |
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#171 |
Quixoticist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 5,001
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I think that it's well worth paying attention to this kind of thing. There are tons of abstract arguments that don't address any of the particulars of the belief one is defending. For example, how does a First Cause argument support the specific case of Yahweh? It doesn't. There could as easily have been a First Cause agent who shot herself in the head after seeing what she'd done.
The more loose and fuzzy things get, the more people think it applies to what they believe, but it's illusory. Most of those who agree that they believe in a god don't actually agree on very much at all. They don't really care, though, since the illusion is comforting. |
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"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde |
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#172 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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rule 8 violation?
Well, it seems that someone has been spending time trying to figure out who I am rather than discussing the topic. I must say that I am flattered, but as I said, my identity here isn't a secret. What I cannot figure out for the life is what relevance any of this has. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#173 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 19,791
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#174 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,057
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Awww, I missed all the action.
Is this the bit where RLBaty thinks that intimidating people will win him the debate? Theists are *weird* man. |
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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#175 |
Quixoticist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 5,001
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In his earliest posts, RLBaty stressed the equivalency of believing in God and believing that ancient humans were capable of inventing Him. (I used Christian Caps because he did.) So if theists needed to provide evidence for their gods, atheists needed to provide evidence for their implicit argument that god concepts were purely the product of imagination. (The "pure imagination" part was quite gratuitous -- dunno where he got that from.)
Anyway, it's a common apologist ploy to try to shift the burden of proof onto atheism. That's basically all this was. |
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"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde |
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#176 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,061
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Originally Posted by ynot
Originally Posted by ynot
Some people want to claim a "burden of proof" issue wrt to a positive assertion, but this is only a debate rule, and not a rule of logic. It is never applied in mathematics for example. Also all propositions can be restated as negatives or positives. Some people (including James Randi in a vid) claim that asserting something exists requires evidence, b/c the default that something doesn't exist is acceptable without evidence. I think that is mumbo-jumbo biased thinking. Has nothing to to with logical inference. We don't know of everything that exists anymore than we know of everything that doesn't exist. Every assertion requires evidence to be considered valid. Some want to invoke parsimony principal or other methods of science, but empiricism is about model building - not epistemology. I think the core problem is that humans want a definitive yes/no answer to the deist and many other questions, and lacking all evidence we make poorly reasoned claims of true/false for emotional gratification. We do this even when there is zero evidence either way.. Why isn't "no evidence, moot point, move along" not as satisfying a result ? |
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#177 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
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#178 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
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#179 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,183
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Why it’s valid to say - “No gods exist” . . .
(1) There is absolutely no credible evidence that a god or gods do exist. (2) There is absolutely no credible reason why a god or gods should exist. (3) There is absolutely no credible method by which a god or gods could exist. (4) There are known credible explanations as to why some people claim and believe a god or gods exist (despite the above counts). If there is absolutely no credible evidence, reason and method for a thing to exist then it’s perfectly valid to say it doesn’t exist. To claim such a thing could or does exist is invalid. |
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#180 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,807
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"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
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#181 |
Persnickety Insect
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny Munuvia
Posts: 16,343
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Well, childish beliefs, anyway. I'll put away my Lego when I'm dead and buried.
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Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO |
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#182 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,807
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__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
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#183 |
Persnickety Insect
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny Munuvia
Posts: 16,343
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You can have the trains and the airport, but not the robot dinosaur.
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Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO |
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#184 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,061
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Your item "(3)" seems spurious to me. What does "no credible method by which X could exists" even mean ? By what method do you exist ? Show me a method by which anything exists.
Item (4) is hogwash illogical. Whether people are inclined to believe in something or not has no bearing on it's existence. (4) can be used to explain why human cultural gods evolved in human societies. It cannot be used to evidence that no possible god(s) exist. So to your points .... Substitute "alien life" for god/gods and see if you come to the same conclusion (the assertion that no alien life exists). Or how about if you just met the first explorer of Australia and you give this rebuttal to his un-evidenced rumors .... (1) There is absolutely no credible evidence that platypus do exist. (2) There is absolutely no credible reason why platypus should exist. (3) There is absolutely no credible method by which platypus could exist. (4) There are known credible explanations as to why some people claim and believe a platypus exist (despite the above counts). Does that constitute a persuasive argument that no platypus can exist, or is it an affirmation of a belief that they don't ? ==== When there is no evidence - then you can draw no logical or statistical conclusions. The deist question in the general case provides no evidence (yes we can disprove gods that dwell in oak trees and on mountain tops, but not gappy, pan_dimensional, or hiding gods).. To draw a conclusion despite the lack of any evidence is an act of faith or belief, not reason. Strong-atheism is faith-based. My opinion is that there is absolutely no possibility of acceptable evidence for or against the general deism argument. |
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#185 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
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What sort of proof you would see for the NON existence fo gods, faery or leprechaun ? There is a good reason to ask for a positive proof of claim. The burden of proof of non existence varies probably from extremely difficult to downright impossible.
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The fact is that I can come up with 10 news type of entity , gods, and faery quicker than you write a post.
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#186 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
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We have no evidence of alien life. We do have evidence of life happenning on 1 planet. Until somebody provide evidence of alien life on another planet, INDEED the default position should be that there isn't any.
Now you can say there is life on earth, sample of 1 , but there could be a probability of alien life yada yada. But that is not evidence of alien life existing. The same proposal would be true even in an universe where we are the only life existing.
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Secondly the DEFAULT position, SHOULD be that Platipus DO NOT EXISTS until evidence are provided for them. Yes you read that right. Thirdly you are making the analogy of an animal existing, with gods existing. That is a Wiiiiide step. Now if you had an example of such *paranormal* entity proven to exists I would give you that one. But an example of a truly bizarre animal ? I won#t let you get out with that one. Gods do not belong to the same sample as animal.
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It does not matter WHAT sort of entity it is. Once evidence are provided you can revise it. The problem is that what is acceptable for faery, is suddenly out of cultural ground not anymore good for gods. |
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#187 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,061
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A simple definition is that a positive assertion is when you say that something is true. A negative assertion is when you say that something is not true(false). But that's not a useful definition.
A strong (historically called "positive atheist") makes the assertion that statements like: "No gods exist" is true.. We could just as easily rephrase this as: "some god exists" is false. So we can rephrase any assertion as positive of negative by the simplistic definition. My meaning is that positive/strong atheists make a definite powerful assertion about the class of all possible gods being null set. That's very different from merely assessing that there is no evidence and therefore withholding judgement. (i.e. making no assertion). |
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#188 |
Nasty Brutish and Tall
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,465
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All possible gods?
Are strong atheists asserting the non-existence of gods that no one believes in? If we limit this discussion to just those gods subject to human worship, would it be fair to say that none of those gods exist? I am not including some vague Deist or pantheist notion of "the universe is god" or "the laws of physics..."; gods that don't do anything except exist, because: Who prays to such gods? |
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#189 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 19,791
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But you can have both.
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__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#190 |
Banned
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#191 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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Stevea
Even as a weak atheist there is this statement "No evidence of gods has yet been shown." |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#192 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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#193 |
Quixoticist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 5,001
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Perhaps the distinction of strong atheism is that some of us are simply fed up with walking on egg shells. There are careful ways to express atheism, but when all theists have is faith and hot air, bad math and worse logic, why is it up to us to make all the effort?
That being said, I don't know whether I qualify as a strong atheist. Based on the objective evidence offered by anthropology, psychology, and other academic disciplines, I provisionally accept that gods were invented by humans. This isn't so much a philosophical position regarding gods as a pragmatic statement regarding reality. Sure, this opinion is not absolute, but no opinion based on science can be more than provisional. I'm open to any evidence to the contrary, though of course anecdotes aren't going to cut it. But, yeah, atheism itself is a pretty simple categorical break. |
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#194 |
Banned
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#195 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,587
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I'm only strongly atheistic about the gods that have been defined.
The ones that have remained undefined because the believers didn't have the honesty to define them, simply don't exist because they remain undefined. |
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#196 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,183
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Method might not be the best word to use but I think it’s good enough. Things exists by the method of having substance. We know things exists by the method of observing that substance. There is no credible evidence of any god substance or that gods can exists by any other credible method.
Item (4) is a counter to the claim that - “Gods must exist because so many people believe in them”. There are known reasons why so many people believe in gods so that they do so doesn’t invalidate saying - “No gods exist”. No I don’t come to the same conclusion and no intelligent person would or should. We have plenty of credible evidence that life exists in many forms within our sphere of observation. As our sphere of observation has expanded we have found previously unknown forms of life. As our sphere of observation expands further it’s credibly possible we will continue to find previously unknown forms of life. This could credibly include extraterrestrial life. Within our sphere of observation we have absolutely no credible evidence that gods exist. There’s no credible reason therefore to assume that expanding our observational sphere will ever enable us to observe credible evidence of gods. |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#197 |
Banned
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#198 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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^ This ^ I find myself becoming, if not 'stronger' in my lack of belief, more strident about it. I don't know whether it's because I'm getting to be old and cranky obout everything or because I'm just sick up and fed with too many preachy theists telling me I'm doomed, but where I used to say things like "I'm sorry but I just can't bring myself to have unquestioning faith in god without some solid evidence" these days I'm far more likely to say "Oh grow up. There's no such bloody thing, you dill." |
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#199 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,183
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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#200 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
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