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Old 21st September 2011, 04:16 PM   #1
Darkstar November
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Norwegian scientist proposes new alternative theory

This is all over the news now in europe. Materials expert Christian Simensen is proposing that explosions caused by molten aluminium mixing with water may have triggered the collapse of the towers.

"If my theory is correct, tonnes of aluminum ran down through the towers, where the smelt came into contact with a few hundred litres of water," Christian Simensen, a scientist at SINTEF, an independent technology research institute based in Norway, said in a statement released Wednesday."

"Simensen presented his theory at an international materials technology conference in San Diego, California, and has detailed his calculations in an article published in the trade journal Aluminum International Today.

"The aluminum industry had reported more than 250 aluminum -water explosions since 1980," he said.

In a controlled experiment carried out by Alcoa Aluminum , 20 kilos (44 pounds) of molten aluminum was allowed to react with 20 litres of water, along with a small quantity of rust.

"The explosion destroyed the entire laboratory and left a crater 30 metres (100 feet) in diameter," Simensen said."


Quotes are from canada.com.

w w w .canada.com/news/theory+collapse+Twin+Towers+study/5436052/story.html

w w w.news.com.au/technology/were-twin-towers-felled-by-chemical-blasts/story-e6frfro0-1226143261174
w w w.calgaryherald.com/story_print.html?id=5436122&sponsor=curriebarracks
w w w.popsci.com/science/article/2011-09/new-theory-world-trade-center-collapse-blames-explosive-chemical-reaction

Last edited by Darkstar November; 21st September 2011 at 04:17 PM. Reason: typo in the title
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Old 21st September 2011, 04:22 PM   #2
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Note, truthy people reading this:

- Presented at a conference
- Published in a trade journal
- "all over the news"


I have no comment on the viability of the theory, just pointing out how it came to our attention.
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Old 21st September 2011, 04:24 PM   #3
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But would the molten aluminum have contacted the water on the impact floors?
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Old 21st September 2011, 04:30 PM   #4
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From the PopSci link:
Quote:
Simensen’s idea, presented at a materials technology conference in San Diego this week, is thus: after the planes impacted the WTC towers, tons of molten aluminum ran down into the floors below the impact sites, mingling with several hundred liters of water from the buildings’ fire sprinkler systems. This mix of aluminum and water is known to cause a chemical reaction that can not only boost temperatures but also put off combustible hydrogen in the process. Basically, it’s a recipe for a really hot explosion.

... But Simensen’s explanation is intriguing. It doesn’t dismiss the official report, but simply claims that it doesn’t tell the whole story. He says the aluminum industry has recorded more than 250 water-aluminum explosions since 1980, and that at one point aluminum maker Alcoa did an experiment involving just 44 pounds of molten aluminum and 20 liters of water (along with a small quantity of rust, which exacerbates the reaction). The resulting explosion destroyed the lab and left a 100-foot crater, he says.

That was under controlled conditions, but extrapolate that to the uncontrolled conditions inside the WTC towers just after the attacks. Jet fuselages contain roughly 33 tons aluminum alloy that melts at roughly 1,220 degrees, Simensen says, turning to a water-like liquid at nearly 1,400 degrees. When the aircraft hit, they exploded and were immediately trapped between floors where debris like plaster quickly melted around them, creating a kind of insulated oven that would push temperatures well north of aluminum’s melting point.
It's intriguing, to say the least. I think it might potentially be contradicted by the state of the steel in NCSTAR 1-3C, but it's interesting enough to not dismiss out of hand.
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Old 21st September 2011, 04:35 PM   #5
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And wow... the idiots are out in force at the PhyOrg link.
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Old 21st September 2011, 05:00 PM   #6
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Interesting idea, but I doubt it played any role in initiating either collapse. In fact, I think I can safely say thank FSM it didn't!
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Old 21st September 2011, 05:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Darkstar November View Post
This is all over the news now in europe. Materials expert Christian Simensen is proposing that explosions caused by molten aluminium mixing with water may have triggered the collapse of the towers.

"If my theory is correct, tonnes of aluminum ran down through the towers, where the smelt came into contact with a few hundred litres of water," Christian Simensen, a scientist at SINTEF, an independent technology research institute based in Norway, said in a statement released Wednesday."

"Simensen presented his theory at an international materials technology conference in San Diego, California, and has detailed his calculations in an article published in the trade journal Aluminum International Today.

"The aluminum industry had reported more than 250 aluminum -water explosions since 1980," he said.

In a controlled experiment carried out by Alcoa Aluminum , 20 kilos (44 pounds) of molten aluminum was allowed to react with 20 litres of water, along with a small quantity of rust.

"The explosion destroyed the entire laboratory and left a crater 30 metres (100 feet) in diameter," Simensen said."


Quotes are from canada.com.

w w w .canada.com/news/theory+collapse+Twin+Towers+study/5436052/story.html

w w w.news.com.au/technology/were-twin-towers-felled-by-chemical-blasts/story-e6frfro0-1226143261174
w w w.calgaryherald.com/story_print.html?id=5436122&sponsor=curriebarracks
w w w.popsci.com/science/article/2011-09/new-theory-world-trade-center-collapse-blames-explosive-chemical-reaction

I'm very dubious about this as there was no obvious explosion before the top parts of the buildings came down. If there had been there would be no need for all the silent thermite nonsense...........
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Old 21st September 2011, 05:20 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Darkstar November View Post
This is all over the news now in europe.
I started with the BBC and I can't find it.
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Old 21st September 2011, 06:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
In a controlled experiment carried out by Alcoa Aluminium, 20 kilos of molten aluminium was allowed to react with 20 litres of water, along with a small quantity of rust.

"The explosion destroyed the entire laboratory and left a crater 30 metres in diameter," Mr Simensen said.
So a controlled experiment destroyed the entire laboratory in which it was conducted? Why would any one conduct such an experiment within a lab? The dangers of water and liquid metals, at high temperatures, are well known.

Is there any report corroborating this? Surely such a failure would be examined by a national body on safety grounds.

Quote:
Firing a rocket with fire-retardant that could coat the aircraft body could also help prevent metal alloy from melting.


That last quoted makes me raise my eyebrows - on following the links briefly I see the following quote:

Quote:
A paper which undercuts the conspiracy theories about the collapse of the World Trade Center was featured on TV.
http://www.aluminiumtoday.com/news/v...luminium-news/

On the face of it (and that means a cursory glance) I am left scratching my noggin.

I'll try to read more to get the full picture.

From the above it appears that this report claims to counter conspiracy theory, however at first glance, I'm extremely sceptical of the claims.

It doesn't seem to add up. I'll spend a bit more time looking at the links later.
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Old 21st September 2011, 06:10 PM   #10
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They know the current set of patchwork theories are neither compatible nor viable and that it's just a matter of time before the wider population catches on, so they needed something new, with molten aluminum, explosions, and catastrophic failure.
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Old 21st September 2011, 06:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
They know the current set of patchwork theories are neither compatible nor viable and that it's just a matter of time before the wider population catches on, so they needed something new, with molten aluminum, explosions, and catastrophic failure.
Who the **** is "they" ergo?

Note, the opening post does not support any idiotic theory the truthers have come up with.

Anyway, post "bedunker," chuckles, it makes you seem smart.
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Old 21st September 2011, 06:20 PM   #12
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His theory is interesting... but it fails in one key area.

There were no loud enough explosions immediately prior to the start of the collapse to account for it. Plus, his theory says the molten aluminum "ran down through the towers", implying that the chemical reaction occurred many floors below the impact zones... so why did the collapses BEGIN at the impact zones?
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Old 21st September 2011, 06:27 PM   #13
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This whole thing appears to be on a similar level to Genady Cherepanov's fracture wave theory; it's an attempt to derive a non-conspiratorial explanation of a phenomenon that never actually occurred in the WTC collapses, but which truthers have repeatedly claimed so often that it's started to factor into people's starting assumptions about the collapses. In Cherepanov's case it was collapse times consistent with the fall time from the roof level of an object in freefall, which truthers asserted for a long time but which we know to be wildly inaccurate. In this case it's the explosions immediately preceding the collapse, which truthers continue to claim to this day but which we know to be completely imaginary. It's bad enough that truthers pollute political and historical debate, but we're seeing their misrepresentations starting to pollute scientific enquiry as well here.

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Old 21st September 2011, 06:31 PM   #14
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The author would be talking about a hydrogen explosion... right ?

There is no evidence for a hydrogen explosion prior to the collapse.
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Old 21st September 2011, 07:01 PM   #15
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At most, aluminum/water reaction would have added fuel to the fires in the piles.

That there were no explsoins of significant power on the impacted floors makes this an unlikely cause of collapse.
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Old 21st September 2011, 07:23 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
At most, aluminum/water reaction would have added fuel to the fires in the piles.

That would be my reaction as well. There were no explosions, so that's right out, but based on this:


Quote:
This mix of aluminum and water is known to cause a chemical reaction that can not only boost temperatures but also put off combustible hydrogen in the process.

The aluminum and water likely wouldn't have been in cohesive enough mass to form good conditions for an explosion, but a more distributed mix could very well have provided additional fuel to the fires, as well as adding heat from the chemical reaction in the first place.
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Old 21st September 2011, 07:34 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
The aluminum and water likely wouldn't have been in cohesive enough mass to form good conditions for an explosion, but a more distributed mix could very well have provided additional fuel to the fires, as well as adding heat from the chemical reaction in the first place.
I'm thinking of super-heated steam over molten aluminum.
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Old 21st September 2011, 08:17 PM   #18
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I did a little digging and it seems that these things can really do some damage if the conditions are right. Information about this subjects seems to be quite easily available.

One article from "Aluminium Times", July/August 2009.
Quote:
"Whenever two liquids, with widely different temperatures, come into contact, an explosion can result. This is purely a physical phenomenon, but with aluminium there is an additional concern because it is a very reactive element that has a strong chemical attraction for oxygen, as evidenced in its naturallyoccurring compounds. Just as a large an amount of energy is required in reduction cell electrolysis to break down the aluminium-oxygen bonds of its oxide form to produce metallic aluminium. This energy is released dramatically if the metal is able to recombine with the oxygen from either water or air. The energy released when 0.5 kg of aluminium fully reacts with oxygen, according to the reaction equation set out below, is equivalent to detonating 1.4 kg of trinitrotoluene (TNT)."

2Al+3H2O = Al2O3+H2 + Energy
The article also shows a picture of a chinese aluminum factory where this kind of explosion supposedly occurred killing instantly 9 and injuring 64 other workers.

But of course there seems to be no evidence for this kind of large scale event taking place on 9/11.

Last edited by Darkstar November; 21st September 2011 at 08:26 PM. Reason: removed the attached picture, don't have the rights to use it. google Binzhou Weiqiao Aluminum Company explosion
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Old 21st September 2011, 10:45 PM   #19
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Not new. Max Photon's rather comical theory had this as a centerpiece, about three years ago.

Obviously it didn't happen. Failure modes in the steel would have been unmistakably different. (/cue "all the st33l was sh!pp3d to CHINA!!11!!one!")
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Old 21st September 2011, 10:54 PM   #20
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Again, no sounds of an explosion (not even a hydrogen gas explosion). There would also have been entire floors worth of windows being blown out and that didn't happen either. It might have provided fuel for the fires as it burned off just as quickly as it was produced but there would be no easily identifiable evidence of that happening in the midst of a such large office fire like that which was seen on 9/11. All it would do, even if it were somehow proven to be true that hydrogen gas was produced in this manner, is that the truthers were wrong (yet again) about their claims of how office fires could not become hot enough to weaken the steel.
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Old 21st September 2011, 11:44 PM   #21
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It's good that this molten metal flowing down through the centre of the Towers is receiving so much attention. Just a few tweaks and we will be on the right track.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 01:19 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
They know the current set of patchwork theories are neither compatible nor viable and that it's just a matter of time before the wider population catches on, so they needed something new, with molten aluminum, explosions, and catastrophic failure.
Lol

At least he is smart enough to know its crazy to think that fire can let collapse a steelframe highscraper

There is one positive thing, he refutes the nist reports with his own theory.

Now im curious how he wants to explain about wtc 7

I hope he heard about wtc7
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Old 22nd September 2011, 01:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
Lol

At least he is smart enough to know its crazy to think that fire can let collapse a steelframe highscraper
No, that is not what he says. He just proposes an additional effect.

Quote:
There is one positive thing, he refutes the nist reports with his own theory.
No, he just tries to supplement it.

Quote:
Now im curious how he wants to explain about wtc 7

I hope he heard about wtc7
What about WT7? Don't you think there was aluminium in WT7? Normal office interiour contains lots of aluminium.

However, I think the mentioned effect was at best marginal, since there does not seem to be any observations indicating it.

To say that it is all over the media in Europe is ... incorrect. I only heard of it here. Actually, apart from noting the anniversary, 911 does not have much attention in Europe. We have, you know, sort of moved on.

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Old 22nd September 2011, 01:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It's good that this molten metal flowing down through the centre of the Towers is receiving so much attention. Just a few tweaks and we will be on the right track.
Ahh, yes ... now that you remind me:

You neglected to answer my question in that other thread:

You claim that hollow support beams were filled with thermite, and this melted the steel, which, constrained by the fireproofing paint, flowed to a secret reservoir in the basement, right?

So in which sequence were these beams melted?

1) Top-down? Then how did the steel flow through the lower, intact and thermite-filled parts?

2) Bottom up? Then what held the building up while the rest of the beam melted?

3) All at once, which basically encounters both of the problems above, plus would neccessarily cause some rather spectacular fireworks.

I await your answer.

Hans
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:08 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Ahh, yes ... now that you remind me:

You neglected to answer my question in that other thread:

You claim that hollow support beams were filled with thermite, and this melted the steel, which, constrained by the fireproofing paint, flowed to a secret reservoir in the basement, right?

So in which sequence were these beams melted?

1) Top-down? Then how did the steel flow through the lower, intact and thermite-filled parts?

2) Bottom up? Then what held the building up while the rest of the beam melted?

3) All at once, which basically encounters both of the problems above, plus would neccessarily cause some rather spectacular fireworks.

I await your answer.

Hans
My hypothesis says that only a certain number of core columns were completely melted away up to about the 88th floor. Well within the factor of safety built into the core structure as a whole. The factor of safety was at least three, meaning that one third or more of those columns could be removed and the building would still stand, supported by the majority of the core columns remaining. The sequence would have been bottom-up I guess.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:31 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
My hypothesis says that only a certain number of core columns were completely melted away up to about the 88th floor. Well within the factor of safety built into the core structure as a whole. The factor of safety was at least three, meaning that one third or more of those columns could be removed and the building would still stand, supported by the majority of the core columns remaining. The sequence would have been bottom-up I guess.
OK. Then:

1) How long will it take to melt 88 floors worth of steel beam, in a sequential manner? We all know that thermite burns relatively slowly.

2) What would be the risk that the protective paint burned through at some point, giving the whole show away?

3) We all know that thermite produces profuse amounts of smoke. During the many minutes of melting 88 floors' length of numerous steel beams, where did the smoke from many tons of thermite go, without anybody noticing it?

4) Refresh my memory, please: What would be the purpose of this? Why would this be needed?

Hans
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No, that is not what he says. He just proposes an additional effect.
"The official report blames the collapse on the over-heating and failure of the structural steel beams at the core of the buildings, an explanation Simensen rejects."

Quote:
No, he just tries to supplement it.
"The official report blames the collapse on the over-heating and failure of the structural steel beams at the core of the buildings, an explanation Simensen rejects."

Quote:
What about WT7? Don't you think there was aluminium in WT7? Normal office interiour contains lots of aluminium.

However, I think the mentioned effect was at best marginal, since there does not seem to be any observations indicating it.

To say that it is all over the media in Europe is ... incorrect. I only heard of it here. Actually, apart from noting the anniversary, 911 does not have much attention in Europe. We have, you know, sort of moved on.

Hans
Lol, your speculation is funny, but its only about twin towers, he does not talk about wtc 7. Next time read the article
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:39 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
"The official report blames the collapse on the over-heating and failure of the structural steel beams at the core of the buildings, an explanation Simensen rejects."



"The official report blames the collapse on the over-heating and failure of the structural steel beams at the core of the buildings, an explanation Simensen rejects."
That is the press-interpretation. He is really just suggesting an additional effect. Also that is not what the official report claims. Have you read it?

Quote:
Lol, your speculation is funny, but its only about twin towers, he does not talk about wtc 7. Next time read the article
You mentioned WTC7. You implied that his thesis would fail here.

Hans
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:46 AM   #29
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I really want to know who conducted the alleged experiment with 20kg of molten aluminium, water and rust and turned a laboratory into a 30 meter crater. And when they're due for parole.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
That is the press-interpretation. He is really just suggesting an additional effect. Also that is not what the official report claims. Have you read it?
Lol then we can reject the article, show where he says its an additional effect.

Quote:
You mentioned WTC7. You implied that his thesis would fail here.
Hans

Just show me how the #*(@( you can conclude that based on my sentences?

I just place my quote again.

Now im curious how he wants to explain about wtc 7

I hope he heard about wtc7


But ok i will answer it.

"and melted aluminum from aircraft hulls likely triggered the explosions that felled New York's Twin"
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:51 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
Lol

At least he is smart enough to know its crazy to think that fire can let collapse a steelframe highscraper

There is one positive thing, he refutes the nist reports with his own theory.
Yes, my reaction as well. Why a sudden need to create a spontaneous controlled demolition scenario?

And I would take claims that laboratories were reduced to a smoking crater with some scepticism.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:53 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
OK. Then:

1) How long will it take to melt 88 floors worth of steel beam, in a sequential manner? We all know that thermite burns relatively slowly.

2) What would be the risk that the protective paint burned through at some point, giving the whole show away?

3) We all know that thermite produces profuse amounts of smoke. During the many minutes of melting 88 floors' length of numerous steel beams, where did the smoke from many tons of thermite go, without anybody noticing it?

4) Refresh my memory, please: What would be the purpose of this? Why would this be needed?

Hans
I'll answer this one but then we better stop because it's not quite on topic.



We are talking about hi-tech NANOthermite- not the more than 100-year old simple thermite formulation that you would have people believe that we are talking about.

So if it was ignited at the bottom the reaction would run quickly up through the hollow columns to the 88th floor or so, completely liquifying the steel as it went This steel would fall at the speed of gravity down through the hole where the column underneath had been until an instant before. In this way a steady flow of liquid steel would flow down into the basement.

You mention this fireproofing 'paint'. I don't know what that is referring to. Perhaps ypu mean the thick layer of fireproofing material in which all the columns were jacketed. This material was described by Dr. Astenah-Asl as having turned 'glassy' when he observed it in the rubble. So it may have formed a kind of pipe that guided the liquid steel on it's journey downwards.

This fireproofing of course prevented the bright burning of the nanothermite from being seen from the ooutside just as it contained the smoke.

Why was this all needed ? Well if you are going to demolish a building it is much better to weaken it first, especially if you are going to try and pass off a story that a so-called 'top block' has crushed the whole structure down flat on the ground.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 02:58 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
That is the press-interpretation. He is really just suggesting an additional effect. Also that is not what the official report claims. Have you read it?
Marokkaan doesn't really "read" things...

He comments on technical aspects that he:

1. Does not have the education or experience to comment on.

2. Has not done even basic research on.

3. Does not understand at all.


That's pretty much Marokkaan in a nut shell.....of course you can sum up those 3 points with one word: "truther".
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Old 22nd September 2011, 03:00 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by newton3376 View Post
Marokkaan doesn't really "read" things...

He comments on technical aspects that he:

1. Does not have the education or experience to comment on.

2. Has not done even basic research on.

3. Does not understand at all.


That's pretty much Marokkaan in a nut shell.....of course you can sum up those 3 points with one word: "truther".
Personal attack without starting a discussion, that means up to ignore list
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Old 22nd September 2011, 03:26 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I'll answer this one but then we better stop because it's not quite on topic.
OK, fair. And I don't think I need comment your reply. Thank you for answering.

Hans
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Old 22nd September 2011, 03:34 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
Lol then we can reject the article, show where he says its an additional effect.




Just show me how the #*(@( you can conclude that based on my sentences?

I just place my quote again.

Now im curious how he wants to explain about wtc 7

I hope he heard about wtc7


But ok i will answer it.

"and melted aluminum from aircraft hulls likely triggered the explosions that felled New York's Twin"
I highlighted the relevant part of your post. Of course, English is not my first language, but saying "I'm curious how he will explain ..." implies to me that you think he can't. What else did you mean?

Yes, he does have a problem with his 'explosions' since none were observed, so the 'marginal contribution part' may be my interpretation.

My other point was that lack of aluminium needed not be an issue.

Hans
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Old 22nd September 2011, 04:09 AM   #37
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Is he talking about explosions that weakened the towers, or an explosive event that initiated the collapse? The latter wouldn't really fit with the evidence from what I can tell.

But I guess at least a case can be made that explosions helped weaken the structure.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 04:23 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
he does not talk about wtc 7.
Yes he does, here:
Quote:
"WTC7 may have taken more of these impacts than the other buildings. At any rate, the building caught fire, which got out of control. In this case, the structural steel may have reached a temperature of more than 1000 oC, over seven hours, and the 13th floor collapsed in the course of a minute. In this case I do agree with the findings of the federal commission. Overheating of steel beams was probably the cause of the collapse.”
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Old 22nd September 2011, 04:30 AM   #39
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Oh, crap Marokkaan. He doesn't agree with you about WTC7. I guess you can ignore him too.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 04:35 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Oh, crap Marokkaan. He doesn't agree with you about WTC7. I guess you can ignore him too.
Yep, back to the fire-resistant silent explosives
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