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Tags George Zimmerman , shooting incidents , Trayvon Martin

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Old 31st March 2012, 09:59 PM   #4201
WildCat
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You do know, I hope, that whatever version of the tape you heard, typical news media get a clean copy directly from the 911 dispatch.
911 dispatch doesn't record in high quality uncompressed audio files. And even if they did, a recording captured by a telephone microphone from a distance through walls still wouldn't make the cut. And it didn't record a speaking voice, it recorded a scream.

Is voice recognition technology legitimate? Absolutely. But not under these circumstances. It's pure woo propagated by a company peddling a product.
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Old 31st March 2012, 10:20 PM   #4202
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Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest View Post
From the article:

--"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.--

That leaves the possibility of a bystander screaming for help. Maybe even screaming for someone to help Zimmerman.

We still do not know.
I would say that it is indicative but not as definitive as indicated.

His analysis does not mention how many samples he has taken of people yelling and screaming, so that will be debated.
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Old 31st March 2012, 10:23 PM   #4203
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Originally Posted by lane99 View Post
Was gonna edit my post to add a p.s. But will say here, instead:

Sight unheard, I will lay money that the shooter will be able to produce a so-called expert willing to testify that the voice is the shooter's.
And realistically you would need to have samples of normal speaking voices and yelling and screaming voices to make a good model of what level of correlation there is between the two. Then there would be a way of saying is the variation in the sample was a rule out or normal.
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Old 31st March 2012, 10:24 PM   #4204
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Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest View Post
Sweet googly moogly, the term "common sense" just slithered its way in to the thread
odd isn't it. Common sense is the bane of critical thinking.
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Old 31st March 2012, 10:53 PM   #4205
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
DAMN!! I thought there for a minute I found a woman, AND a redhead on the interwebs!! Sorry about that.

Cheers!
Hmmm, I wonder if I should admit to being both a woman and a redhead? Is that dangerous?
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Old 31st March 2012, 10:59 PM   #4206
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Funny how the CIA managed to ID those bin Laden tapes all those years. Total woo, I guess?
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:04 PM   #4207
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Funny how the CIA managed to ID those bin Laden tapes all those years. Total woo, I guess?
There are Bin Laden 911 recordings?
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:11 PM   #4208
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In all seriousness, aside from the legal niceties:

Zimmerman followed someone, while armed, after the cops told him not to.
Zimmerman killed the other person.

From an ethical point of view, all the ******** about whether he was aggressive, whether Martin fought him, etc, is just that, ********. He CHOSE to follow Martin, while armed, and he killed him. Martin did not choose to be followed, and was guilty of absolutely nothing before this maniac started this whole train of events. Somehow in all of this arguing, this basic point seems to have been lost.

Maybe he will get away with it. Maybe, in whatever alternate universe Florida inhabits, somehow he isn't culpable. That doesn't make what he did ok. It doesn't even make it not murder, under any sensible definition of murder (rather than the definition under a ridiculous stand your ground law).

Someone else died because he made poor choices. This is not at issue: he made really ****** choices, and Martin is dead. In most other states, there wouldn't be any question about him being arrested. He is ethically culpable, and I honestly hope his life is destroyed as was the life of the person he killed.
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:12 PM   #4209
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
But isn't that primarily because this case was brought to light?
yes
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:15 PM   #4210
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Originally Posted by totoro View Post
In all seriousness, aside from the legal niceties:

Zimmerman followed someone, while armed, after the cops told him not to.
Zimmerman killed the other person.

From an ethical point of view, all the ******** about whether he was aggressive, whether Martin fought him, etc, is just that, ********. He CHOSE to follow Martin, while armed, and he killed him. Martin did not choose to be followed, and was guilty of absolutely nothing before this maniac started this whole train of events. Somehow in all of this arguing, this basic point seems to have been lost.

Maybe he will get away with it. Maybe, in whatever alternate universe Florida inhabits, somehow he isn't culpable. That doesn't make what he did ok. It doesn't even make it not murder, under any sensible definition of murder (rather than the definition under a ridiculous stand your ground law).

Someone else died because he made poor choices. This is not at issue: he made really ****** choices, and Martin is dead. In most other states, there wouldn't be any question about him being arrested. He is ethically culpable, and I honestly hope his life is destroyed as was the life of the person he killed.
qft- there was no reason Martin should have been confronted in the first place
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:28 PM   #4211
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Originally Posted by totoro View Post
In all seriousness, aside from the legal niceties:

Zimmerman followed someone, while armed, after the cops told him not to.
Zimmerman killed the other person.

From an ethical point of view, all the ******** about whether he was aggressive, whether Martin fought him, etc, is just that, ********. He CHOSE to follow Martin, while armed, and he killed him. Martin did not choose to be followed, and was guilty of absolutely nothing before this maniac started this whole train of events. Somehow in all of this arguing, this basic point seems to have been lost.

Maybe he will get away with it. Maybe, in whatever alternate universe Florida inhabits, somehow he isn't culpable. That doesn't make what he did ok. It doesn't even make it not murder, under any sensible definition of murder (rather than the definition under a ridiculous stand your ground law).

Someone else died because he made poor choices. This is not at issue: he made really ****** choices, and Martin is dead. In most other states, there wouldn't be any question about him being arrested. He is ethically culpable, and I honestly hope his life is destroyed as was the life of the person he killed.
Just to be clear, the police did not tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

It doesn't change your argument, just a point of fact.
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:39 PM   #4212
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The forensic's experts cited in the article were indicated to be independent - not working on behalf of the Martin family - so there's no reason to question their motives.
There is every reason to question their motives, in the same way that there is a reason to question the motives of psychics who insert themselves into media cases seeking attention. This case represents the perfect opportunity for voice identification experts who want attention.

I just popped into page 106 so I have not read it all yet, I found this thread by trying to search on scientific evidence to back up the accuracy of voice identification. Having worked with a lot of people in the audio field, I know that 90% of these so-called "engineers" are nothing but flim flam men who believe they have special hearing powers, don't understand the placebo effect, and believe Monster Cable (or similar) sounds better. Have 10 of them test the same thing and you'll get 10 different opinions.
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:44 PM   #4213
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Just to be clear, the police did not tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

It doesn't change your argument, just a point of fact.
I had been under the impression that rhe dispatcher had told him not to when he called in his suspicions. But you're right, it doesn't change my point at all. Zimmerman chose to so this. Honestly, the fact that anyone would try to claim that somehow what he did wasn't profoundly wrong really puzzles me.
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:48 PM   #4214
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Originally Posted by totoro View Post
In all seriousness, aside from the legal niceties:

Zimmerman followed someone, while armed, after the cops told him not to.
Zimmerman killed the other person.

From an ethical point of view, all the ******** about whether he was aggressive, whether Martin fought him, etc, is just that, ********. He CHOSE to follow Martin, while armed, and he killed him. Martin did not choose to be followed, and was guilty of absolutely nothing before this maniac started this whole train of events. Somehow in all of this arguing, this basic point seems to have been lost.

Maybe he will get away with it. Maybe, in whatever alternate universe Florida inhabits, somehow he isn't culpable. That doesn't make what he did ok. It doesn't even make it not murder, under any sensible definition of murder (rather than the definition under a ridiculous stand your ground law).

Someone else died because he made poor choices. This is not at issue: he made really ****** choices, and Martin is dead. In most other states, there wouldn't be any question about him being arrested. He is ethically culpable, and I honestly hope his life is destroyed as was the life of the person he killed.
Your post is full of assumptions and you're framing the argument in a way that leads to one conclusion. I believe the more important question is:
1. Who is the first one that initiated violence.
2. Was the use of the gun justifiable?
There is also the strong possibility that:
A. This represented a horrible confluence of events. For example, Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin thinks he's the one being stalked and attacks.

People who argue your position keep getting hung up on the fact that the 911 operator told him he did not have to follow, as if that someone transfers all responsibility to what happened to Zimmerman but it does not.

My position is that we have to wait for all of the facts to come out and don't have nearly enough information to decide who if anyone is to blame.
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:52 PM   #4215
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Originally Posted by totoro View Post
I had been under the impression that rhe dispatcher had told him not to when he called in his suspicions. But you're right, it doesn't change my point at all. Zimmerman chose to so this. Honestly, the fact that anyone would try to claim that somehow what he did wasn't profoundly wrong really puzzles me.
It's the phenomenon of 20/20 hindsight. Had he caught a criminal he would now be being called a hero for doing the brave thing. But in this case it's now easy to say "well if he had not followed him he would not be dead". It's very fuzzy reasoning but it's very hard for people to remove what they know happened from the equation. I can very easily imagine a situation in which if I saw someone doing something and I thought they were about to break into a house I might follow them from behind to see what they were doing. It would not in any way indicate I was doing something wrong.

Also, imagine that you are part of a neighborhood watch and that there have been break-ins in your neighborhood. It might make it all the more reasonable that you would keep an eye on the person.

Last edited by Natural Born Skeptic; 31st March 2012 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:17 AM   #4216
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Just to be clear, the police did not tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

It doesn't change your argument, just a point of fact.
I still do not understand this point. It seems... I don't know, trying too hard. He was told that the police didn't "need him to do that". He responded with "Okay". It sure seems that he understood the message and was willing to comply. That he chose to do something else seems to me to raise questions. Wasn't the dispatcher trying to convey to him the message not to follow Martin? Do you really think the dispatcher was simply engaging in CYA? "Do what you want but we don't need you to do it?" Honestly this point strikes me as particularly disingenuous.

Is it possible that the dispatcher meant "don't follow Martin"?
Is it possible that Zimmerman understood the dispatcher to mean "don't follow Martin"?
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:22 AM   #4217
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Quote:
If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be
considered in this investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you
following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do
that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be
required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and
was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by
Trayvon.
The call taker is not the police, nor were they speaking for the police.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...n_shooting.pdf

Are we certain that Zimmerman didn't follow the suggestion?
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:24 AM   #4218
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Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
Your post is full of assumptions and you're framing the argument in a way that leads to one conclusion. I believe the more important question is:
1. Who is the first one that initiated violence.
2. Was the use of the gun justifiable?
There is also the strong possibility that:
A. This represented a horrible confluence of events. For example, Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin thinks he's the one being stalked and attacks.

People who argue your position keep getting hung up on the fact that the 911 operator told him he did not have to follow, as if that someone transfers all responsibility to what happened to Zimmerman but it does not.

My position is that we have to wait for all of the facts to come out and don't have nearly enough information to decide who if anyone is to blame.
Actually, I disagree. I don't care who initiated the violence. I care about who was armed, amd who initiated the incident. Zimmerman clearly followed Martin. I also don't care if using the gun was "justifiable" because other than under rhe truly moronic stand your ground law in Florida it just wasn't.

To reiterate. Martin did not even know of the existence of Zimmerman, and clearly wasn't following Zimmerman around.

Yes there was an unfortunate confluence of events. All of it atarted by Zimmerman making ****** choices.

We probably disagree about the place of guns in society as well. I don't think there is any way it is ever a good thing to have crazed morons walking around the neighborhood looking to **** with people.

And let's not be disingenuous: Zimmerman was clearly out to **** with Martin.
.

Edited by jhunter1163:  Edited for Rule 10. Do not attempt to bypass the autocensor.

Last edited by jhunter1163; 1st April 2012 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:27 AM   #4219
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Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
Your post is full of assumptions and you're framing the argument in a way that leads to one conclusion. I believe the more important question is:
1. Who is the first one that initiated violence.
2. Was the use of the gun justifiable?
There is also the strong possibility that:
A. This represented a horrible confluence of events. For example, Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin thinks he's the one being stalked and attacks.

People who argue your position keep getting hung up on the fact that the 911 operator told him he did not have to follow, as if that someone transfers all responsibility to what happened to Zimmerman but it does not.

My position is that we have to wait for all of the facts to come out and don't have nearly enough information to decide who if anyone is to blame.
I don't care at all what the 911 operator said. I care about the fact that Zimmerman was clearly out for conflict, had a fun, and killed someone. This was a conflict he chose. He could simply not have followed Martin.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:27 AM   #4220
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Originally Posted by totoro View Post
Actually, I disagree. I don't care who initiated the violence. I care about who was armed, amd who initiated the incident. Zimmerman clearly followed Martin. I also don't care if using the gun was "justifiable" because other than under rhe truly moronic stand your ground law in Florida it just wasn't.

To reiterate. Martin did not even know of the existence of Zimmerman, and clearly wasn't following Zimmerman around.

Yes there was an unfortunate confluence of events. All of it atarted by Zimmerman making ****** choices.

We probably disagree about the place of guns in society as well. I don't think there is any way it is ever a good thing to have crazed morons walking around the neighborhood looking to **** with people.

And let's not be disingenuous: Zimmerman was clearly out to **** with Martin.
.
Edited by jhunter1163:  Moderated content removed.
Why bother to post that junk here? Why don't you just go and lynch the crazed moron?
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:27 AM   #4221
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation?
I think it can be reasonably construed that it was what was meant and what Zimmerman understood.

Quote:
“are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that".
Which means what? Again it seems desperate and frankly silly.

In any event, I don't think it was legally binding no matter what the dispatcher said. Aside from assertions, why do you think otherwise?
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:32 AM   #4222
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I think it can be reasonably construed that it was what was meant and what Zimmerman understood.

Which means what? Again it seems desperate and frankly silly.

In any event, I don't think it was legally binding no matter what the dispatcher said. Aside from assertions, why do you think otherwise?
Think otherwise about what? Are you attributing the police statement on the matter to me?

A poster said "Zimmerman followed someone, while armed, after the cops told him not to."

I said it was not true. I am correct.

I linked and quoted a police release on the matter.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:33 AM   #4223
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Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
It's the phenomenon of 20/20 hindsight. Had he caught a criminal he would now be being called a hero for doing the brave thing. But in this case it's now easy to say "well if he had not followed him he would not be dead". It's very fuzzy reasoning but it's very hard for people to remove what they know happened from the equation. I can very easily imagine a situation in which if I saw someone doing something and I thought they were about to break into a house I might follow them from behind to see what they were doing. It would not in any way indicate I was doing something wrong.

Also, imagine that you are part of a neighborhood watch and that there have been break-ins in your neighborhood. It might make it all the more reasonable that you would keep an eye on the person.
Why not follow and kill any random stranger then? You never know, they might be a criminal. This is how we get Somalia.

If you think it's ok to walk around shooting random strangers on the off chamce they might be criminals, I can only be glad we aren't neighbors.

It's not fuzzy reasoning at all to say if he didn't follow him he wouldn't be dead, it's simple cause and effect: if anyone is engaging in fuzzinees it is you.

Last edited by totoro; 1st April 2012 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:35 AM   #4224
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I linked and quoted a police release on the matter.
The police release is self serving. The police are NOT the finders of fact.

Try again.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:35 AM   #4225
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Originally Posted by totoro View Post
Why not follow and kill any random stranger then? You never know, they might be a criminal. This is how we get Somalia.

If you think it's ok to walk around shooting ramdom strangers on the off chamce thwy might be criminals, I can only be glad we aren't neighbors.

It's not fuzzy reasoning at all to say if he didn't follow him he wouldn't be dead, it's simple cause and effect: if anyone is wngaging in fuzzinees it is you.
Don't worry, it's clearly against the law in Florida to walk around and shoot random strangers, and several independent agencies are investigating, so there's no chance Zimmerman will get away with it.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:37 AM   #4226
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
The police release is self serving. The police are NOT the finders of fact.

Try again.
Try what again?

Is a 911 operator a police officer?

Not the finders of fact?

Who cares?
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:40 AM   #4227
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Why bother to post that junk here? Why don't you just go and lynch the crazed moron?
Right, because clearly the important thing is

"whether the use of a gun was justified" in a conflict entirely created by Zimmerman or some other swill about how he might have been a hero if Martin had actually turned out to be the reincarnation of Pol Pot.

What is your position on this, then? That somehow there is information we don't have that will magically make what Zimmerman did ok?

Good luck with that one.
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:41 AM   #4228
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Try what again?

Is a 911 operator a police officer?
What do you mean try what again? What's so damn difficult to understand?
  • The police release is worthless as it is self serving.
  • I don't claim that the 911 operator is a police officer.
  • Hell, I DON'T CLAIM ANYTHING other than your assertion is silly.
Originally Posted by LTC8K6
Just to be clear, the police did not tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.
This is not in fact. A judge could very well find that the dispatcher was a representative of the police department. So, if you want to argue this you will need something other than a self serving police release and an assertion by implication that a dispatcher cannot speak on behalf of the police department. Okay?
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:49 AM   #4229
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
What do you mean try what again? What's so damn difficult to understand?
  • The police release is worthless as it is self serving.
  • I don't claim that the 911 operator is a police officer.
  • Hell, I DON'T CLAIM ANYTHING other than your assertion is silly.
This is not in fact. A judge could very well find that the dispatcher was a representative of the police department. So, if you want to argue this you will need something other than a self serving police release and an assertion by implication that a dispatcher cannot speak on behalf of the police department. Okay?
When a judge rules it so, I'll change my mind.

Until then, have a nice discussion.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 1st April 2012, 12:50 AM   #4230
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
When a judge rules it so, I'll change my mind.
Well of course. Your mind is made up why would you take a neutral position? Ad hoc rationalization and confirmation bias.
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Old 1st April 2012, 01:02 AM   #4231
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My mind is clearly not made up, as anyone who follows the thread knows, and I'm tired of your childish jabs.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 1st April 2012, 01:05 AM   #4232
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Originally Posted by totoro View Post
Right, because clearly the important thing is

"whether the use of a gun was justified" in a conflict entirely created by Zimmerman or some other swill about how he might have been a hero if Martin had actually turned out to be the reincarnation of Pol Pot.

What is your position on this, then? That somehow there is information we don't have that will magically make what Zimmerman did ok?

Good luck with that one.
My position is to wait for the courts. It often takes years for a felony case to get to trial. I expect this one to be no different.
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Old 1st April 2012, 01:06 AM   #4233
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
My mind is clearly not made up....
Ahem...

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
When a judge rules it so, I'll change my mind.
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I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 1st April 2012, 01:37 AM   #4234
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Originally Posted by crimresearch View Post
Is Florida still a Frye standard state?
Yes. Ramirez v. Florida articulates Florida's implementation of the Frye test.


Quote:
The Frye test since has been broken down into a four-step process as outlined by the Florida Supreme Court in Ramirez v. State:

- First, the trial judge must determine whether such expert testimony will assist the jury in understanding the evidence or in determining a fact in issue.

- Second, the trial judge must decide whether the expert‟s testimony is based on a scientific principle or discovery that is “sufficiently established to have gained general acceptance in the particular field in which it belongs.”

- Third, the trial judge must determine whether a particular witness is qualified as an expert to present opinion testimony on the subject in issue.

- Fourth, the judge may then allow the expert to render an opinion on the subject of his or her expertise, and it is then up to the jury to determine the credibility of the expert‟s opinion, which it may either accept or reject.
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Old 1st April 2012, 02:05 AM   #4235
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Originally Posted by crimresearch View Post
We do know that they filed charges against Zimmerman contrary to early reports that they 'just let him go'.
Did they actually file against Zimmerman? I am under the impression from initial media reports that SPD investigators recommended manslaughter charges which the State Attorney declined - presumably in accordance with the immunity statute.

That's what piqued my curiosity initially - why SPD did not place Zimmerman in custody under the 48-hour rule.
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Old 1st April 2012, 03:24 AM   #4236
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
The police release is self serving. The police are NOT the finders of fact.

Try again.
Gee wizz, I should contact the world's police departments. They're wasting billions employing detectives and forensic experts! The fools think sifting and collecting evidence, then applying it to find the probable guilty party is finding facts, little did they know they should be using a narrow court definition as spelled out in the dictionary.
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Old 1st April 2012, 03:59 AM   #4237
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post

In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

He's lying too.
I thought a post pages ago said the 13 year old kid admitted to lying? The parents said the kid made up details or was pressured or something...
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Old 1st April 2012, 04:00 AM   #4238
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Just to be clear, the police did not tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

It doesn't change your argument, just a point of fact.
Yeah, but it was a very serious sounding suggestion to not follow. To which Z said "Okay".

Quote:
Z was given a very serious sounding suggestion to stop following M by a police dispatcher. This suggestion was given during Z's pursuit of M and was within several minutes of the fatal shot being fired. Z responded to this suggestion with the word "Okay".
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Old 1st April 2012, 04:26 AM   #4239
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Uh, yeah... sounds like woo to me. I'm sure it's as reliable as polygraphs.
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
It tells us the woo peddlers have another totally scientific machine to play with.

A total BS claim. You simply cannot take a mono recording of such poor quality and do what he claims he has done. And it's also a lossy recording, much data has been lost. Complete woo.
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What these guys claim to be doing certainly is.

It's one thing to identify a voice recorded in a studio, quite another under the conditions they claim to have done it.
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What happened in the other 69%?

Were any of the comparisons made between a talking voice and a scream? On a recording made over the telephone, through walls, and recorded in a lossy format?

Total, utter woo.

Separating woo woo from reality is what the JREF does. I don't think the JREF would accept this challenge.
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Old 1st April 2012, 05:53 AM   #4240
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
911 dispatch doesn't record in high quality uncompressed audio files. And even if they did, a recording captured by a telephone microphone from a distance through walls still wouldn't make the cut. And it didn't record a speaking voice, it recorded a scream.
Bull. You are pulling this out of your confirmation bias rear. Some dispatch centers use very high tech equipment and any center that has been modernized uses digital recording. And, 911 calls are frequently used in court so there is a value in having quality recording equipment.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Is voice recognition technology legitimate? Absolutely. But not under these circumstances. It's pure woo propagated by a company peddling a product.
So 'WC says so' vs a company that has been consulting on voice recognition forensics for more than a decade with dozens of published papers, and, who actually had access to the recording. I have no problem with my personal conclusion here.
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