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Tags "A Song of Ice and Fire" , George R. R. Martin

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Old 11th April 2012, 02:46 PM   #601
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Not to nitpick, but 'The Lord of The Rings' is an entire series of books. It was released as three volumes, at the insistence of the publisher, but IIRC it was written as six. Comparing the entire series to one book from the 'Song of Ice and Fire' series isn't very indicative of anything other than the willingness of fantasy fiction fans to read long books.
It was written as a single novel.. The "Six Books" was just because Tolkien wanted "Pause points" in such a long novel. That is not unusual. Tolstoy divided War And Peace into About 10 "Books",and Dickens divided A Tale Of Two Cities into Three.
Tolkien wanted LOTR published in a single volume but the publishers said that would be too expensive and risky, and that is when the decision was made for strictly finiancial reasons to bring it out in 3.
All the above is pretty well documented, Tolkien NEVER intended it to be published as Six different books.
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:27 PM   #602
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Dunstan makes a good point. Another thing in favour of that is Melisandre's own POV, where she states that the purpose of her visions is often to be served as warning try to prevent them from happening.
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:43 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
As prophesied by Maggy the Frog, Myrcella and Tommen will both be dead by the end of the books, as will Cersei, by either Tyrion's or Jaime's hand. Myrcella will be a queen at some point before she dies, though.
She already was, for like five minutes, and recognized as such by a handful of people-- which is exactly how you'd expect a GRRM prophecy to screw her over.


Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
I have no confidence that he can pull off an ending that will do justice to the first three books.

His last two books trended negatively, as reflected in Amazon reviews. He was obviously frustrated writing this last book, as he expressed as much in the acknowledgement:
His main source of frustration with ADWD, as I understood it, was how to get out of the corner he'd written himself into with the Dany situation. I'd agree with what seems to be the consensus that his "solution" to that problem was pretty clumsy, and certainly not worth waiting 5 years for, but on the other hand he's over that hump now and can hopefully get back on track. The next book will bring all the plot threads back together and he's promised no new POV characters, so I'm hoping we'll see a return to the quality of books 1-3; at least I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a little longer.
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:39 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by marksman View Post
Assuming the general political construct stays the same, her's my prediction for the King and his Court:


This is the one I'm probably most wrong about, but it's fun to speculate.
Crownlands: Jon "Snow"
The North: Rickon Stark, with Davos Seaworth as his Hand
The Iron Islands: Asha Greyjoy, installed in a kangaroo moot by Stannis when the other Greyjoys are killed in the coming Winter. (I really hope Theon dies already.)
The Riverlands: Old Walder dies, a Walder Civil War ensues. Edmure Tully is released from Lannister dungeons and takes over.
Vale of Arryn: Harrold Hardyng (and his wife Alayne, aka Sansa Stark)
Westerlands: Tyrion Lannister, last of the Lannisters
Reach: Samwell Tarly(!). The Tyrells are slain, Sam's father makes his play, then dies, and Jon has Sam reclaim his throne.
Stormlands: Daenaerys Targaryen. The Barratheons are dead, and the seat devolves to her when Jon turns it down to lead the Crownlands. When Jon and Daenarys pass, the Stormlands will be made part of the Crownlands.
Dorne: Doran Martell survives the war, with Trystane as heir. He chooses to marry Myrcella Hill (formerly Myrcella Barratheon), even though she is stripped of her Barratheon name and revealed to be the product of Jamie and Cersei's incest.

I don't see how Jon could possibly be granted the throne ahead of Daenaerys considering

A) He's a bastard
B) He's sworn to the Night's Watch
C) She's older
D) She has dragons
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:50 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I don't see how Jon could possibly be granted the throne ahead of Daenaerys considering

A) He's a bastard
B) He's sworn to the Night's Watch
C) She's older
D) She has dragons


A) If R+L=J is true, and R married L in secret, then he's not a bastard.
B) True. Well, he was, until he was Caesar'ed...
C) No, she's not. Regardless of who the mother is, Rhaella gave birth to Daenerys on Dragonstone after Ned brought Jon home to Winterfell. Not that it matters in the line of succession, though. If Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son, he has the better claim than Daenerys, according to the law. Of course, even if he is as such, if Griff/Aegon is ALSO Rhaegar's son, then Aegon is the true heir...
D) True.

We all thought Jon Stark/Targaryen would be the Song of Ice and Fire, and possibly inherit the throne, but with the assassination, I now very much doubt it. Even if Melisandre revives him or he turns into a Coldhands-type of wight, well, I just can't imagine an undead guy on the Iron Throne at the end. Jon's role will either be more significant, or he's really the true heir (assuming Griff-Aegon is a fake) and it will be the ultimate irony that he can't inherit or do anything beyond turning into a zombie. Haha.

Aegon bothers me though. I sincerely hope he's a fake, these hidden Targs have got to stop... and it would severely screw up Daenerys's claim. Sure, she has dragons, but all along she's been motivated by the notion of reclaiming her birthright, and she's a fairly righteous girl. If Aegon pops in to make that irrelevant, she'd be an hypocrite to not step aside. Assuming, of course, that Aegon can prove his identity. Not sure how he'd do that, silver hair and purple hair are uncommon but not necessarily proof of Targaryen heritage (let alone being a trueborn son of Rhaegar).

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Old 12th April 2012, 01:26 PM   #606
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The question of "who ends up on the Iron Throne" may not be a terribly meaningful one in the end. Given the recurring theme of power, and its various forms and uses, I really doubt we're going to see an ending in which Character X is crowned and unites the people of Westeros and peace and prosperity are restored.

Who knows whether the "Seven Kingdoms" will really remain "one" kingdom. In particular, the North has risen in rebellion twice in the last twenty years or so; will the Northern lords really be eager to bend the knee again? (Yes, I know: maybe, if their bending it to a Northerner in King's Landing.) At a minimum, whichever poor sap ends up on that chair may have at least as big a mess as Robert did, with simmering resentments and factions.

Oh, and as to
the legitimacy of Griff
, given that Martin has drawn so much inspiration from the War of the Roses, it would be surprising if there weren't
a fake claimant or two.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:34 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post

A) If R+L=J is true, and R married L in secret, then he's not a bastard.
B) True. Well, he was, until he was Caesar'ed...
C) No, she's not. Regardless of who the mother is, Rhaella gave birth to Daenerys on Dragonstone after Ned brought Jon home to Winterfell. Not that it matters in the line of succession, though. If Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son, he has the better claim than Daenerys, according to the law. Of course, even if he is as such, if Griff/Aegon is ALSO Rhaegar's son, then Aegon is the true heir...
D) True.

We all thought Jon Stark/Targaryen would be the Song of Ice and Fire, and possibly inherit the throne, but with the assassination, I now very much doubt it. Even if Melisandre revives him or he turns into a Coldhands-type of wight, well, I just can't imagine an undead guy on the Iron Throne at the end. Jon's role will either be more significant, or he's really the true heir (assuming Griff-Aegon is a fake) and it will be the ultimate irony that he can't inherit or do anything beyond turning into a zombie. Haha.

Aegon bothers me though. I sincerely hope he's a fake, these hidden Targs have got to stop... and it would severely screw up Daenerys's claim. Sure, she has dragons, but all along she's been motivated by the notion of reclaiming her birthright, and she's a fairly righteous girl. If Aegon pops in to make that irrelevant, she'd be an hypocrite to not step aside. Assuming, of course, that Aegon can prove his identity. Not sure how he'd do that, silver hair and purple hair are uncommon but not necessarily proof of Targaryen heritage (let alone being a trueborn son of Rhaegar).

I actually realised after I posted the mistake with the Daenerys/Jon age/lineage thing, but Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne already and there's no indication that the land allows multiple wives, so he couldn't have legally wed Lyanna could he?

As to the hidden Targ... that probably pissed me off more than anything else in the entire latest book because it honestly felt like Martin threw it in there to deal with the fact he'd written Daenerys into a corner. Maybe he really did cleverly foreshadow it from the beginning (I'd have to re-read) but I don't think so...

Having said that, I don't think he's a pretender; Varys outright states that it's Aegon and to my mind it would be a total reversal of Varys' character to support a fake Targ. (There's also no logical reason for Varys to have lied to Kevan Lannister, given he's dying).
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:36 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
The question of "who ends up on the Iron Throne" may not be a terribly meaningful one in the end. Given the recurring theme of power, and its various forms and uses, I really doubt we're going to see an ending in which Character X is crowned and unites the people of Westeros and peace and prosperity are restored.

Who knows whether the "Seven Kingdoms" will really remain "one" kingdom. In particular, the North has risen in rebellion twice in the last twenty years or so; will the Northern lords really be eager to bend the knee again? (Yes, I know: maybe, if their bending it to a Northerner in King's Landing.) At a minimum, whichever poor sap ends up on that chair may have at least as big a mess as Robert did, with simmering resentments and factions.

I'd personally be very disappointed if Westeros remained a united kingdom, as I don't think it's remotely plausible, and would require some pretty substantial suspensions of disbelief.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:48 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I don't see how Jon could possibly be granted the throne ahead of Daenaerys considering

A) He's a bastard
B) He's sworn to the Night's Watch
C) She's older
D) She has dragons

A) He is the Azor Ahai, which is good enough for the followers of R'hollor. The right of conquest (and enough Targaryen blood) will make it okay with everyone else. Robert Barratheon got crowned with less justification.

B) I don't think the vow survives the fall of the Wall. Alternately, the Ahor Azai is reborn shorn of oaths. It's not hard to justify.

C) See A. He beats her in battle (see D, below), seduces her, marries her and makes her Queen (and cures her infertility). Now their heir will be the indisputable rightful king.

D) He's the Azor Ahai. And I suspect by the time the dragons show up, he'll be able to warg one. Alternately, he can get a hold of the Dragon Horn, warg a man to blow it and die, and be recognized as the dragons' true master.
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Old 12th April 2012, 02:04 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I'd personally be very disappointed if Westeros remained a united kingdom, as I don't think it's remotely plausible, and would require some pretty substantial suspensions of disbelief.
I agree it is unlikely, but I don't find it implausible.

Right now, you have four factions: Daenarys, Lannister, Aegon, and Stannis. You have seven kingdoms to conquer.

If we posit a marriage of Daenarys and Jon, and if Stannis and Aegon die, things can fall neatly into place.
Westerlands: Varys is eliminating the Lannisters, and Tyrion will be with Daenarys. Cersei, Tommen, and Myrcella will die (as has been prophesied). Jaime remains a Kingsguard.
North: Rickon becomes Lord of the North, and pledged to his brother Jon
Iron Islands: Victarion pledges them to Daenarys
Dorne: ready to pledge itself to any Targaryen
Vale: Sansa ends up married to the Lord of the Vale (Harrold Hardyng), and delivers the Vale to Jon.
Stormlands: On Stannis and Aegon's deaths they devolve to Daenarys
Reach: The Tyrells remain the lone hold-out. When Tommen dies, any claims they had on the Crown die with him and they are shrewd enough to see the wind blowing in Jon and Daenarys' favor. Heck, I can see them building an alliance with the Red Priests favoring Jon Snow, thus pitting the Reach, North, and Vale against the Westerlands, Stormlands, Dorne, and Iron Islands, which is resolved with Jon and Daenarys' wedding.
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Old 12th April 2012, 02:27 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I actually realised after I posted the mistake with the Daenerys/Jon age/lineage thing, but Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne already and there's no indication that the land allows multiple wives, so he couldn't have legally wed Lyanna could he?
There is Targaryen precedent with multiple wives: Aegon the Conqueror had two wives (they were also his two sisters, lol).

Regarding Griff,
I remember nothing in the text that really foreshadows Aegon's appearance beyond the baby-switch with Gilly's and Mance's sons, but I don't think GRRM came up with it out of the blue. Years ago, people theorized that Varys had switched Aegon with another baby and that Gregor had bashed the switched baby's head instead of Aegon's. Babies are hard to tell apart, and moreso if their heads are bashed... but there was no proof. Until someone asked GRRM in an interview if Rhaegar's children were really all dead. He replied that Ser Amory Lorch had really dragged Rhaenys out of her bed and killed her. But he said nothing about Aegon. People then speculated that it was confirmation Aegon was alive, but I always thought Martin was just trolling them... guess not. [source: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1106/ -- dated 2000!]

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Old 12th April 2012, 02:38 PM   #612
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Poor Tommen and Myrcella. Those are nice kids.
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Old 12th April 2012, 05:30 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by marksman View Post

B) I don't think the vow survives the fall of the Wall. Alternately, the Ahor Azai is reborn shorn of oaths. It's not hard to justify.
"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." Which happened at the end of ADWD; once he's resurrected by Melisandre he's free from his oath, which is consistent with the general theme that every character who returns from death leaves their previous identity behind.
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Old 12th April 2012, 08:00 PM   #614
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I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James. Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard!
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Old 12th April 2012, 08:05 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James. Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard!
I'm sure it didn't, but my point is the fall of the Wall isn't necessary for Jon to be released from his oath. Not that that wouldn't be a sufficient condition also, but there's an independently sufficient condition that's already (apparently) occurred.
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Old 12th April 2012, 08:28 PM   #616
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Ahhh, sorry, I misread. I thought you were disagreeing with marksman and saying that only the member's death could release him from his oath. My bad.
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Old 13th April 2012, 05:35 AM   #617
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Just a note, for my theory to come true here is the minimum number of people who need to die (who haven't died already)
Stannis Barratheon
Shireen Barratheon (who has greyscale)
Aegon Targaryen
Cersei Barratheon nee Lannister (fated to die)
Tommen Barratheon (fated to die)
Myrcella Barratheon (fated to die)
Petyr Baelish
Robert Arryn (sickly child)
Roose Bolton
Ramsay Snow
Euron Greyjoy
Walder Frey
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Old 13th April 2012, 03:52 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
I don't think the Night's Watch oath ever took the fall of the Wall into account, James. Because it has yet to happen in Westeros history. I imagine that if (when?) the Wall does fall, the oath will be meaningless, since there's nothing to guard!
It depends. The Wall might be gone, but you can argue that the basic intent of the oath..to guard the people of Westeros against the threats from the far North...not only remains, but with the wall down is more vital then ever.
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Old 14th April 2012, 02:24 PM   #619
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Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end:

Everybody dies.

The last surviving Stark,
Arya, changes the family motto to "Told Ya So!" just before succumbing.

A week later, the last survivors of all,
Tyrion and Tysha, barred in the throne room of King's Landing with dwindling food and water while the zombie ice wight horde pounds on the doors,
commit mutual suicide by having sex on the Iron Throne.
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Old 14th April 2012, 02:38 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end:

Everybody dies.

The last surviving Stark,
Arya, changes the family motto to "Told Ya So!" just before succumbing.

A week later, the last survivors of all,
Tyrion and Tysha, barred in the throne room of King's Landing with dwindling food and water while the zombie ice wight horde pounds on the doors,
commit mutual suicide by having sex on the Iron Throne.

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Old 14th April 2012, 02:49 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Predictions? Oh goody! Judging from many of GRRM's early short SF stories, here's how it will end:

Everybody dies.

The last surviving Stark,
Arya, changes the family motto to "Told Ya So!" just before succumbing.

A week later, the last survivors of all,
Tyrion and Tysha, barred in the throne room of King's Landing with dwindling food and water while the zombie ice wight horde pounds on the doors,
commit mutual suicide by having sex on the Iron Throne.
That doesn't sound too bad.
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:18 AM   #622
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Yeah, I could almost accept that one.
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Old 1st October 2012, 02:44 PM   #623
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http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2012/...nquest-in.html

Cool stuff about the Targaryen conquest. I love this bit, pure GRRM:

Quote:
He [King Argilac Durrendon of Storm's End (known as Argilac the Arrogant)] offered Aegon an alliance against the ironborn, offering to seal it with the hand of his daughter, Argella, in marriage. Aegon refused, instead suggesting that Argella could marry his bastard half-brother (and closest friend), Orys Baratheon. Argilac took that as an insult and cut off the hands of Aegon's envoy, sending them back with a message that these were the only hands a bastard could expect from the Storm King.
\m/
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Old 2nd October 2012, 07:02 AM   #624
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Any clue as to when the 6th book is due out?
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Old 2nd October 2012, 10:18 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Any clue as to when the 6th book is due out?
2020?

Seriously, I don't think GRRM will even speculate on a date until the book is done.

I'm hoping that since he sorted out the issues that were causing him difficulty in the last book that the next one will not take so long, but I'm an incurable optimist.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 11:45 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
2020?
Wow, that's generous!
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Old 2nd October 2012, 01:39 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by IDB87 View Post
Wow, that's generous!
What can I say?

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
I'm an incurable optimist.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 03:29 PM   #628
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He's only 64 but in bad health. I'm crossing my fingers he's kept good notes, time-lines, talked the ending through with spouse, etc... Otherwise it's going to be an unfinished symphony.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 06:53 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
He's only 64 but in bad health. I'm crossing my fingers he's kept good notes, time-lines, talked the ending through with spouse, etc... Otherwise it's going to be an unfinished symphony.
I really hope he hasn't told a single person about who Jon's parent's actually are (and that his telling the producers of the show was just a bluff), and that he has no notes that would indicate his lineage.

Oh god, that would be the best thing everrrrrrrrr to happen and I have no idea why.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 08:30 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
He's only 64 but in bad health. (
Evidence?
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Old 3rd October 2012, 01:07 PM   #631
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Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_-
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Old 3rd October 2012, 01:11 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_-
No we cannot.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 01:12 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Can we have a single ASoIaF conversation that doesn't revolve around GRRM's age, health or writing slowness? -_-
Blame Robert Jordan.
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Old 4th October 2012, 11:14 AM   #634
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Meh, that #### is getting old is all.

So no one has any opinion on the cool Targaryen conquest history I posted, I take it.
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Old 4th October 2012, 12:08 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Meh, that #### is getting old is all.
Martin certainly is getting old, you're right.



Quote:
So no one has any opinion on the cool Targaryen conquest history I posted, I take it.
All it shows is that he's more interested in establishing the history of his world than finishing his novel

It is neat, though, and he's good at fleshing his world out.
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Old 4th October 2012, 12:38 PM   #636
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Actually, the World of Ice and Fire was a project spearheaded by Elios and Linda of Westeros.org, not GRRM himself, but it's been taking longer than expected.
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Old 4th October 2012, 01:13 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Actually, the World of Ice and Fire was a project spearheaded by Elios and Linda of Westeros.org, not GRRM himself, but it's been taking longer than expected.
Your "Pure GRRM" caused me to assume he had written that bit.

Silly me.
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Old 4th October 2012, 02:46 PM   #638
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I didn't say he didn't write it, I objected to your insinuation that he's made this project his priority over TWoW.
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Old 4th October 2012, 03:53 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
Evidence?
Just my opinion based on observation. I would be glad to learn I am wrong about his health and life expectancy.

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Old 31st October 2012, 06:46 AM   #640
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He doesn't look quite as bloated as the series though.
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