ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 16th April 2012, 05:46 AM   #2081
Helen
Implicitly explicit
 
Helen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Here. Or very nearly getting there, at least.
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
it is almost impossible to 100% accurately translate the exact meaning into another language.
DOC, dear, I earn my living as a translator, and while it is a job that demands almost superhuman skills and intelligence, and an overall fantasticalitude far beyond most humans, it can actually be done....
Helen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 05:55 AM   #2082
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
Originally Posted by helen View Post
... And an overall fantasticalitude far beyond most humans...
You work for Apple???
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 09:19 AM   #2083
Hokulele
Official Nemesis
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 28,207
Aberhaten!

*Happy dance*
__________________
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"
Some person: "Why did you shoot that?"
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"

- Tragic Monkey
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 09:24 AM   #2084
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,371
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Aberhaten!

*Happy dance*


__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

The Australasian Skeptics Forum
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 09:59 AM   #2085
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Hail and hail again!
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 10:08 AM   #2086
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,371
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Hail and hail again!


Cheers mate. I haven't missed any fulfilled prophecies have I?
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

The Australasian Skeptics Forum
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 10:11 AM   #2087
X
Slide Rulez 4 Life
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,121
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Cheers mate. I haven't missed any fulfilled prophecies have I?

Nay, but I think you might have fulfilled one. A first for this thread!
__________________
It is sad that this is necessary:
Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly."
Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly."

[X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis
X is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 10:24 AM   #2088
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,371
Originally Posted by X View Post
Nay, but I think you might have fulfilled one. A first for this thread!


As they say in the classics . . .



So let it be written, so let it be done.


God should have hired Cecil B. DeMille.
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

The Australasian Skeptics Forum
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 10:30 AM   #2089
TimCallahan
Philosopher
 
TimCallahan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,293
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
That's what Norman Geisler and other inerrant believers say, it is true and accurate. The only reason it seems inaccurate to some people is that either they don't see symbolism, or for example they mistake "different" accounts for "wrong" accounts. For example one person writes of two angels being at the tomb and another writer says one. That is a different account but one does not contradict the other. If one would have said there were 2 angels at the tomb and the other would have said there is "only" one angel then that would have been a contradiction, but they didn't say "only" one. It's like if I say get me a pencil, "there is one in that drawer". If the person opens the drawer and there are two pencils, that doesn't mean I was wrong. There is one pencil in the drawer (but there is also two). I would have been wrong however if I would have said there is "only" one pencil in the drawer. . . (snip) . . .
DOC: There are substantive differences in the following account that go beyond the rationalization in the hilited area. For example:

1) According to Matthew, Joseph and Mary are already living in Bethlehem when Jesus is born. They flee to Egypt to escape the persecution of Herod the Great, come back after he has died, but go to Nazareth to escape the attention of Herod's son Archelaus (however, another of Herd's sons, Antipas, is ruling Galilee). According to Luke, Joseph and Mary are already living in Nazareth and have to trek to Bethlehem for Jesus to be born there. Then they go back to Nazareth. There's no flight to Egypt, no slaughter of the innocents. These two nativity accounts directly contradict each other. You can't rationalize these differences away.

2) According to the Synoptic Gospels, the Last Supper was a Passover meal. According to John, jesus is crucified just before Passover. This is a direct contradiction.

3) According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus is too weakened to carry his cross all the way to Golgotha, and Simon of Cyrene is forced to carry it for him. According to John, Jesus carries it all the way. This is a direct contradiction.

4) According to Mark, there are no post-resurrection appearances of the risen Christ, only an empty tomb as evidence. According to Paul, in 1 Corinthians, Jesus first appears to Peter. According to John, He first appears to Mary Magdalene. According to Mark and Matthew, the angel tells the women at the tomb that the disciples are to go to Galilee, where Jesus will meet them. In Matthew, this is indeed where Jesus meets the disciples before ascending to heaven. According to Luke, Jesus expressly tells the disciples not to leave Jerusalem, and he meets them there. These are all direct contradictions. You can't rationalize them away.
TimCallahan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 10:47 AM   #2090
Sun Countess
Appearance of intelligence
 
Sun Countess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible does not claim to be a science book, the vast majority of it deals with God's relationship with man, and spiritual and ethical matters. The little amount that does deal with science themes like Genesis could have been to satisfy the natural curiosity of the illiterate uneducated people in a manner they could easily understand without confusing them, and distracting them from the more important spiritual matters and ethical matters.
Like women being unclean and rape and slavery being completely acceptable moral endeavors. And how sometimes, if you want to be right by god, you need to kill, rape, and enslave an entire group of people. Or maybe God will go easy on you and just ask you to sacrifice your own child.

Quote:
But with that said the Bible does seems to know a lot about science:

Genesis 1:1a - the universe came first

Genesis 1:1b - then the earth

Gen 1:10 - then land and sea

Gen 1:21 - then life in the sea

Gen 1;24-25 - then land animals

Gen 1:27 - lastly humans

Also other biblical writers had other unusual scientific knowledge of such things as evaporation, condensation, a time when there was no precipitation. and that the earth hung suspended in space. Gen 2: 6,7 , Eccl 1:7 , Isa 40:22 , Job 26:7
And don't forget the stars which were strung up on an invisible firmament, and the moon which gave light at night. When humans were created, DOC, were men and women created at the same time or separately? And why couldn't an ancient people understand that there were other planets in the universe, or that the sun was the centre of their solar system? I learned those things when I was a child, and I didn't need any newfangled modern scientist thinking to understand them.

Quote:
Now back to prophecy.
Ah, yes, we can all agree that the bible is non-moral and non-science-y, so can we finally all agree that it isn't very prophetic either? It truly fails on all fronts, DOC.

Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post

These are all direct contradictions. You can't rationalize them away.
I'll bet he's willing to try though.
Sun Countess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 10:56 AM   #2091
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,181
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
That's what Norman Geisler and other inerrant believers say, it is true and accurate. The only reason it seems inaccurate to some people is that either they don't see symbolism, or for example they mistake "different" accounts for "wrong" accounts. For example one person writes of two angels being at the tomb and another writer says one. That is a different account but one does not contradict the other. If one would have said there were 2 angels at the tomb and the other would have said there is "only" one angel then that would have been a contradiction, but they didn't say "only" one. It's like if I say get me a pencil, "there is one in that drawer". If the person opens the drawer and there are two pencils, that doesn't mean I was wrong. There is one pencil in the drawer (but there is also two). I would have been wrong however if I would have said there is "only" one pencil in the drawer.
And that, ladies and germs, is why they call it "apologetics."

DOC,
I would strongly urge you to never use this type of reasoning in real life. You will only end up in trouble.
  • But your honor, my testimony isn't wrong it's only "different."
  • But Mr. Tax Man, I did earn $10,000, I just earned some more thousands too.
  • But officer, I was driving one way, just not that "different" way.
  • But honey, I do love, honor and cherish you. I never said "just" you.

Last edited by carlitos; 16th April 2012 at 10:58 AM. Reason: format
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 03:24 PM   #2092
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Cheers mate. I haven't missed any fulfilled prophecies have I?
Nah. The chances of finding a fulfilled bible prophecy are vanishingly small.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 03:30 PM   #2093
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,492
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Nah. The chances of finding a fulfilled bible prophecy are vanishingly small.
If the Bible prophesies that none of its prophecies will come true, is it then fulfilled?
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 03:44 PM   #2094
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,445
There are one hundred failed bible prophecies here.
http://www.freethinkersbooks.com/100fbp.htm
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2012, 09:01 PM   #2095
Mashuna
Ovis ex Machina
 
Mashuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,602
Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
If the Bible prophesies that none of its prophecies will come true, is it then fulfilled?
Perhaps. . .I'll need to check that one with Russell.

If a prophesy fails in the wood, and there's no-one there to see it, will DOC still claim it's been fulfilled?
Mashuna is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 02:29 AM   #2096
welshdean
2012 6Nations Grand Slam
-------CHAMPIONS-------
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye
Posts: 1,565
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
That's what Norman Geisler and other inerrant believers say, it is true and accurate. The only reason it seems inaccurate to some people is that either they don't see symbolism, or for example they mistake "different" accounts for "wrong" accounts. For example one person writes of two angels being at the tomb and another writer says one. That is a different account but one does not contradict the other. If one would have said there were 2 angels at the tomb and the other would have said there is "only" one angel then that would have been a contradiction, but they didn't say "only" one. It's like if I say get me a pencil, "there is one in that drawer". If the person opens the drawer and there are two pencils, that doesn't mean I was wrong. There is one pencil in the drawer (but there is also two). I would have been wrong however if I would have said there is "only" one pencil in the drawer.
Yep, I'm with DOC on this one. I believe in the 'True God'.





Not that one, the other one.
__________________
Poe's Law!!! im christian if we came from apes how come were not hairy and have a big mouth and did we end up looking like we do know and besides there isnt any serious proof of apes they showd a video saying an ape was wondering around in the forest that thing looked exactly like a costume that i had saw at a store know one ever cought an ape (spelling/punctuation by original author)
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 02:55 AM   #2097
DOC
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
And yet, you have failed to show that even 1 biblical prophecy was fulfilled.
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.

Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

The fact that you keep saying I have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy gives me the right to keep saying the above. In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.

Last edited by DOC; 17th April 2012 at 03:14 AM.
DOC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 03:02 AM   #2098
Lowpro
Philosopher
 
Lowpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.

Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

The fact that you keep saying I have not given 1 fulfilled gives me the right to keep saying the above. In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.
One would tend to think that a fulfilled prophecy would be more fact that opinion DOC... If you can't use facts to explain a prophecy and have to wriggle around to it, don't you think that defies what a prophecy is supposed to be?
__________________
"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers
Lowpro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 03:07 AM   #2099
DOC
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,933
Originally Posted by Helen View Post
DOC, dear, I earn my living as a translator, and while it is a job that demands almost superhuman skills and intelligence, and an overall fantasticalitude far beyond most humans, it can actually be done....
Do you translate the Hebrew language, and why are there so many translations of the Bible if it can be done?

At this link you can see Gateway lists 30 different translations of the Bible into the English Language. (hit the down arrow next to "page options" to see them)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+1&version=NIV

Last edited by DOC; 17th April 2012 at 03:16 AM.
DOC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 03:23 AM   #2100
Mashuna
Ovis ex Machina
 
Mashuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,602
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
For example one person writes of two angels being at the tomb and another writer says one. That is a different account but one does not contradict the other. If one would have said there were 2 angels at the tomb and the other would have said there is "only" one angel then that would have been a contradiction, but they didn't say "only" one.
Next, DOC will tell the story of the first moon landing, and how one man walked on the moon.
Mashuna is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 03:45 AM   #2101
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,371
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
And yet, you have failed to show that even 1 biblical prophecy was fulfilled.


So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.


He could no longer resist his craving for bacon, obviously.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1


Trying to misrepresent the case against you as nothing more than the opinion of a single other poster is so completely and transparently dishonest, DOC, that you're doing your fellow christians a far greater disservice than a million hostile atheists ever could.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The fact that you keep saying I have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy gives me the right to keep saying the above.


Your right to claim that you've presented evidence of fulfilled prophecies isn't being questioned. The veracity of the claim, however, is most certainly open to criticism and your displeasure with that criticism taking the form of "Bollocks!" is neither here nor there.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.


It's not joobz' opinion. It's a matter of established fact.
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

The Australasian Skeptics Forum
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 03:55 AM   #2102
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,371
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Helen View Post
DOC, dear, I earn my living as a translator, and while it is a job that demands almost superhuman skills and intelligence, and an overall fantasticalitude far beyond most humans, it can actually be done....
Do you translate the Hebrew language, and why are there so many translations of the Bible if it can be done?

At this link you can see Gateway lists 30 different translations of the Bible into the English Language. (hit the down arrow next to "page options" to see them)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+1&version=NIV


You actually think the bible was written as a single work all at once by a single author in a single, pure form of one language (that language being what we now know as Hebrew) and that the resulting work has been preserved intact for over two thousand years despite being written on non-existent paper, don't you?

No wonder you're unable to produce any evidence from the bible to support your ridiculous claims - the book you're referring to as the bible doesn't even exist.
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

The Australasian Skeptics Forum

Last edited by Akhenaten; 17th April 2012 at 04:04 AM.
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 04:00 AM   #2103
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,486
I'm starting to think that the main reason Complexity left is because DOC is so much more successful at turning people away from Christianity.
__________________
Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs

Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

I have eaten breakfast and have not written an Epistle to any Church. - dejudge.
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 04:02 AM   #2104
Helen
Implicitly explicit
 
Helen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Here. Or very nearly getting there, at least.
Posts: 2,144
Every era needs its own translations. We have several translations of Homer, Aeschylus, Racine and Shakespeare in Swedish, for instance, as well as of the Bible. New knowledge, the opportunity to modernise language to make it more easily accessible, the need to focus on different aspects of a work, all these things may lead to new translations. Also, believe it or not, translators are a strange breed; many of us enjoy fiddling about with language, and teasing out its inner secrets, so we do it for the sheer fun of it! Or because we think older translations are crap. Or because a publisher wants to sell more copies, and thinks a new translation might do the trick.

Last edited by Helen; 17th April 2012 at 04:05 AM.
Helen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 04:23 AM   #2105
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,371
Originally Posted by Helen View Post
Every era needs its own translations. We have several translations of Homer, Aeschylus, Racine and Shakespeare in Swedish, for instance, as well as of the Bible. New knowledge, the opportunity to modernise language to make it more easily accessible, the need to focus on different aspects of a work, all these things may lead to new translations. Also, believe it or not, translators are a strange breed; many of us enjoy fiddling about with language, and teasing out its inner secrets, so we do it for the sheer fun of it! Or because we think older translations are crap. Or because a publisher wants to sell more copies, and thinks a new translation might do the trick.


The main point I'm taking away from all this, however, is that our noble translators have for too long been the unsung hero(ine)s of the story of civilisation and that moves must be made immediately to elevate them to their proper position as the True Revelators of History™ (with commensurate bestowing of obscene wealth and unmitigated power, of course).
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

The Australasian Skeptics Forum
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 04:31 AM   #2106
Helen
Implicitly explicit
 
Helen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Here. Or very nearly getting there, at least.
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
The main point I'm taking away from all this, however, is that our noble translators have for too long been the unsung hero(ine)s of the story of civilisation and that moves must be made immediately to elevate them to their proper position as the True Revelators of History™ (with commensurate bestowing of obscene wealth and unmitigated power, of course).
I just knew there had to be a reason for wanting you to come back.
Helen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 04:42 AM   #2107
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.
I give up.

Why?
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 05:08 AM   #2108
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,350
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.
Where does it prophesy in the Bible that well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow will convert to Christianity? Anyway these Isaiah prophecies don't always have much effect. This is from Isaiah 7 and it converted me to precisely nothing. Maybe I should consult a rabbi!
Quote:
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria. 19 And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes. 20 In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 05:30 AM   #2109
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,999
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.
I don't know. Why have so many Christians converted to Scientology?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his.
Facts aren't opinion, regardless of your attempts at re-framing them as such.
1.) It is a FACT to say that events described in the book of revelation has not happened soon, (or at all), hence a failed prophecy.
2.) It is a FACT to say that Nebuchadnezzar did not end Egyptian wealth, hence The prophecy in Ezekiel is failed.

I could go on, but the simple fact is you haven't presented ANY evidence demonstrating a single fulfilled prophecy. It isn't an opinion. It is a fact.
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

The fact that you keep saying....
Is it a fact that I keep saying it or is it an opinion?

By your standards, you should say "in my opinion" I keep saying...

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.
To be honest, It is a fact that you have yet to demonstrate a single biblical prophecy as being fulfilled. I will provide evidence for this fact in my next post.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

Last edited by joobz; 17th April 2012 at 05:45 AM.
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 05:47 AM   #2110
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,999
Hi DOC, Here's my evidence that you have yet to present a convincing argument in support of a single biblical prophecy.

DOC has successfully demonstrated a fulfilled biblical prophecy: 1
DOC

DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41
Joobz
Foster Zygote
jond
abaddon
mashuna
zooterkin
Mojo
Lucian
Amazer
Helen
Filippo Lippi
Hokulele
RoboTimbo
FastEddieB
joseph8th
kmortis
x
RobDegraves
Elizabeth I
Lukraak_Sisser
Mudcat
ddt
Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased
catsmate
tsig
Leumas
Brainache
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
pakeha
dafydd
TimCallahan
Wildy
Lrrr
Cantab
Sezme
AdMan
Alice Shortcake
Sun Countess
Agatha

Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 14
Lucian
Helen
kmortis
ddt
Leumas
Mudcat
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
Brainache
pakeha
Cantab
Sezme
Nay_sayer

Do you believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
No:21

zooterkin
joobz
kerikiwi
pakeha
Mojo
dafydd
Lucian
ddt
welshdean
Agatha
Elizabeth I
Craig B
catsmate1
Helen
carlitos
abaddon
Robotimbo
Mudcat
Welshdean
Lrrr
Rincewind

So you believe these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
Yes:0
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

Last edited by joobz; 17th April 2012 at 05:48 AM.
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:03 AM   #2111
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,371
Please add either myself or Aberhaten to the following categories:
  1. DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled,

  2. DOC has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish, and

  3. Do you believe any of these [prophecies in a google list] came true? (No).
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon

The Australasian Skeptics Forum
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:13 AM   #2112
catsmate1
Penultimate Amazing
 
catsmate1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,559
Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
I'm not sure if this post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but you do know, of course, that the gospels were written to "fulfill" the prophecies. This is particularly true of John having Jesus speared in the side after being crucified in order to "fulfill" Zechariah, though the Synoptic Gospels are ignorant of this incident.
Given that be believes in the "prophecies" of St. Malachy I don't think so.
catsmate1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:17 AM   #2113
Lowpro
Philosopher
 
Lowpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Please add either myself or Aberhaten to the following categories:
  1. DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled,

  2. DOC has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish, and

  3. Do you believe any of these [prophecies in a google list] came true? (No).
Yea add me to those too. Although I have to admit, DOC didn't show me the OT was gibberish, the OT itself showed me that long before DOC
__________________
"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers
Lowpro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:22 AM   #2114
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 33,969
Prophesying Pointers

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.

Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1

The fact that you keep saying I have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy gives me the right to keep saying the above. In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.
Why did the chicken cross the road?


DOC you seem a little vague on what's a prophecy. It has this form.

1. Prophet tells what's going to happen before it happens in enough detail to recognize the event.

2. Event happens as foretold.


General and open ended statements do not qualify.

"there will be wars" while trivially true is not a prophecy.

"the city will be destroyed" gives no date so is not a prophecy.


"California will break loose and sink in the ocean on 13 of Jan. 2013" is a prophecy.


Now can you show us any?
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:27 AM   #2115
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 33,969
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Cheers mate. I haven't missed any fulfilled prophecies have I?
They were flying thick and fast in a thread in FM but thankfully they were wrong.



ETA: I see I missed the word fulfilled.

Last edited by tsig; 17th April 2012 at 06:29 AM.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:32 AM   #2116
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 25,632
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.

That's no more evidence for your position than it was the first five times you cited it.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:37 AM   #2117
welshdean
2012 6Nations Grand Slam
-------CHAMPIONS-------
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye
Posts: 1,565
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy.
I think in the future, to be honest, you [Joobz] should say; "It is the opinion of all participants (that have expressed an opinion) in this thread that DOC has not given one fulfilled prophecy."

DOC, I think you should grow a pair, admit you've failed thus far and move on to a new, verifiable prophecy that is (ideally) extra-biblically verifiable. If you don't or can't, then your somewhat tarnished reputation for honesty and integrity may be damaged beyond economical repair.
__________________
Poe's Law!!! im christian if we came from apes how come were not hairy and have a big mouth and did we end up looking like we do know and besides there isnt any serious proof of apes they showd a video saying an ape was wondering around in the forest that thing looked exactly like a costume that i had saw at a store know one ever cought an ape (spelling/punctuation by original author)
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:46 AM   #2118
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 33,969
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Where does it prophesy in the Bible that well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow will convert to Christianity? Anyway these Isaiah prophecies don't always have much effect. This is from Isaiah 7 and it converted me to precisely nothing. Maybe I should consult a rabbi!

Quote:
Quote:
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria. 19 And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes. 20 In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
This is obviously a prophesy about discovering Occam's Razor.

The 'razor is plain, Bill worked for others i. e. hired and he got into trouble with the PTB i. e. his beard was consumed.


Q. E. D.

tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:57 AM   #2119
kmortis
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Moderator
 
kmortis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,014
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Why did the chicken cross the road?


DOC you seem a little vague on what's a prophecy. It has this form.

1. Prophet tells what's going to happen before it happens in enough detail to recognize the event.

2. Event happens as foretold.


General and open ended statements do not qualify.

"there will be wars" while trivially true is not a prophecy.

"the city will be destroyed" gives no date so is not a prophecy.


"California will break loose and sink in the ocean on 13 of Jan. 2013" is a prophecy.


Now can you show us any?
Hell, I'd accept "California will break loose and sink in the ocean on 13 of Jan. 2013, plus or minus two weeks." is a prophecy. Of course, saying "California will break loose and sink in the ocean during a full moon, plus or minus two weeks" is distinctly NOT a prophecy. I'll leave it to the casual observer to suss out why.


Oh, welcome back, Pharaoh.
__________________
-Aberhaten did it
- "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe
-Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping
- Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm
kmortis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2012, 06:58 AM   #2120
Hokulele
Official Nemesis
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 28,207
DOC, there are many different translations of the Bible because there were many people who want to interpret it to support their opinions or beliefs. For example, your insistence that dolous really means "servant" is your translation solely to support your belief that Jesus could never support something as immoral as slavery, despite all the evidence to the contrary. When you have multiple people with multiple agendas and beliefs, of course you will have multiple translations.

Ask me a hard one.
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:09 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.