Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

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DazzaD said:
They are in a different frame of reference (as you stated.. the gravitational field for each one is NOT the same).

You have a bloke on a train "travelling" at c relative to a bloke on a platform... the bloke on the train "sees" the train moving at 0 m/s relative to his own "position"...the bloke on the platform "sees" the train moving at c relative to his own "position"

How can the same train possibly be moving at the two different speeds?

How can GR resolve this (or SR)?


PS:

Still politely and patiently awaiting a reply to my earlier simple questions on maths and physics.
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The solution to the example you was mentioned is coherent acceptable and logical. It is even possible to understand from a classic perspective. It makes sense for everybody.

The dilemma I just mentioned is not so simple or logical.
You are now forced to understand a different reality compared to the one you live in
This is the difference.

The fact is that A and B do in fact both observe the Earth is moving, but not with the same speed.
We know time is affected, speed must be too.
Why should distance be an exception, - do you think?

Try really to think about, that speed of the Earth relative to the Sun, - is not always what it seems to be, even for people living at the exact same distance and exact same planet.
We know that.
Isn't that strange do you think?

A possible scenario is that gravity is transforming everything proportional, - not only time and speed, but also distances.
This new picture will show you that times ticks slower or faster because distances are not comparable the same.

The ruler and space is simple stretching or shrinking....this is why time and speed is effected propotional.... ( and this is what curvature of space mean)

So speed is different because distances (and time) are not comparable the same.

( But seen from A and B's perspective everything is always the exact same)

Can you see the smoke at the horizon?
So there must be fire, - right ?
I mean seen from a logical perspective.

The whole problem is that we know that space is "curving" But we have no idea of what that really is, - as well as no idea how that affect the ruler or distances.
This is the missing (logical) link .

Try to think about this for a moment.
We know that space is curving, - and because of that time thick different.
HOW can a property of space cause TIME to tick different do you think.
TRY HARD to explain me.
LOGICAL please.
No train no blab la bla, but in a way I can get my grandmother to understand this is true
 
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Bjarne said:
TRY HARD to explain me.
LOGICAL please.
No train no blab la bla, but in a way I can get my grandmother to understand this is true
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Bjarne, several people, including myself, have been trying to explain this to you for a long time.

Obvoisously, you don't have the basic understanding of physics and mathematics needed to understand it, and I don't really think you want to.

It is not everything that can be explained at grandmother level.

Hans
 
Bjarne said:
The dilemma I just mentioned is not so simple or logical.
You are now forced to understand a different reality compared to the one you live in
This is the difference.
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No, it is just as simple and logical. It is not a different reality; there is onely one reality.

The fact is that A and B do in fact both observe the Earth is moving, but not with the same speed.
We know time is affected, speed must be too.
Why should distance be an exception, - do you think?
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It doesn't matter what we think. Reality is what it is.

Try really to think about, that speed of the Earth relative to the Sun, - is not always what it seems to be, even for people living at the exact same distance and exact same planet.
We know that.
Isn't that strange do you think?
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No, it is not so strange. It is a logical consequence of relativity.

A possible scenario is that gravity is transforming everything proportional, - not only time and speed, but also distances.
This new picture will show you that times ticks slower or faster because distances are not comparable the same.
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No, that is not a possible scenario, because we can observe that it is not so. In your scenario, A and B would be in the 'same' porition, but have a different distance to the sun. How is that less strange?

Can you see the smoke at the horizon?
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Actually, it seems to come from your ears. - But that might well coincide with your horizon.


Hans
 
Bjarne said:
The fact is that A and B do in fact both observe the Earth is moving, but not with the same speed.
We know time is affected, speed must be too.
Why should distance be an exception, - do you think?
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er, because it contradicts your own argument?

v=d/t

if t halves, v doubles, but if d also changes proportionately v would be back to the value it had before "t halves"
 
MRC_Hans said:
In your scenario, A and B would be in the 'same' porition, but have a different distance to the sun. How is that less strange?
Hans
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The distance would be the same, to the north and South Pole (if the earth was not tilting 23 degree).
So the distance to A and B is the same.
That would be confirmed objective if you did have a long enough tape measure.
 
Alex Cured said:
er, because it contradicts your own argument?

v=d/t

if t halves, v doubles, but if d also changes proportionately v would be back to the value it had before "t halves"
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No it is not a contradiction, because within a long second, the earth is moving a long meter, and hence the speed is "the same" for A and B.

Notice from the perspective from A and B everything seems to be the same, - but when you would compare the 2 realties, the one reality is more "stretched" than the other.

Therefore a meter is comparable stretched, a second too, and speeds therefore also.
 
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Bjarne said:
No it is not a contradiction, because within a long second, the earth is moving a long meter, and hence the speed is "the same" for A and B.
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So if all the units were different, the units would be different.


Notice from the perspective from A and B everything seems to be the same, - but when you would compare the 2 realties, the one reality is more "stretched" than the other.
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So a minor difference in local gravity for one observer alters spacetime to a meaningful degree over a great distance, but does not affect the other, relatively close observer at all?


Therefore a meter is comparable stretched, a second too, and speeds therefore also.
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So the distance is the same but the units are different, some local measurements change but others do not, and one observer's ability to do maths deserts him completely.



How about you try and come up with an example that you can support in any non-silly way, say by using maths. Then perhaps you can have a discussion.
 
Paul said:
So if all the units were different, the units would be different.
So a minor difference in local gravity for one observer alters spacetime to a meaningful degree over a great distance, but does not affect the other, relatively close observer at all?
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A and B observs the Universe completely different.

So the distance is the same but the units are different, some local measurements change but others do not, and one observer's ability to do maths deserts him completely.
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The conditions are always the same.
Imagine you you is walkjing round a lake.
Now we will move the lake to a stronger field of gravity.
You would not notice any difference.
It will take "the same" time, - and distances is "the same" and even you speed is "the same" as before.
This is the way you would see it.

BUT when you would compare the lake to how it was before, a complete transformation have taken place, - not only time and speed, - but time, speed and distance is now all proportional stretched factors.
This is the true way of understanding GR, and this is what in fact is pretty simple to prove, - simply by proving Relativistic Resistance is real.

How about you try and come up with an example that you can support in any non-silly way, say by using maths. Then perhaps you can have a discussion.
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Try you to suggest a experiment.
How would you do it ?
When all you have all the time is "cheating you"
The most politely is 2 clocks, because you can leave a clock in a different space time, and later bring them together and compare differences.
But you cannot do the same with speed or the ruler, because by doing this you moves into a different "relaity" , whereby these factors are changing just by moving them, - excactly as the second is doing the same.

What we are discussion here is what all the history of the Universe is about.....
 
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Bjarne said:
A and B observs the Universe completely different.
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No they don't, and it's not what you said before.


The conditions are always the same.
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You mean always different.


Now we will move the lake to a stronger field of gravity.
You would not notice any difference.
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Apart from the effects of stronger gravity of course.


It will take "the same" time, - and distances is "the same" and even you speed is "the same" as before.
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Exactly what effects are you supposing from this minor increase in gravity?


This is the way you would see it.
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Really, why is that?


...This is the true way of understanding GR
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I believe you'll find that, as usual, that is nonsense.


and this is what in fact is pretty simple to prove, - simply by proving Relativistic Resistance is real.
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Are you ever going to attempt this pretty simple proof?


Try you to suggest a experiment.
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Try not an experiment to suggest I. Try to suggest I an example not foolish you to try.


How would you do it ?
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I wouldn't, I'm not making silly claims about physics.


When all you have all the time is "cheating you"
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I hate it when the universe cheats, if only there were a way to understand it. We could call it physics and people, let's call them scientists, could use it to do tests and stuff.


The most politely is 2 clocks,
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I hate one rude clock too.


But you cannot do the same with speed or the ruler, because by doing this you moves into a different "relaity" , whereby these factors are changing just by moving them, - excactly as the second is doing the same.
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That sounds terrible, looks like we'll never get off the planet then, bang goes satellite navigation and space flight.


What we are discussion here is what all the history of the Universe is about.....
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Oh, that's what you think you're doing is it?
 
Bjarne said:
This is the true way of understanding GR, and this is what in fact is pretty simple to prove, - simply by proving Relativistic Resistance is real.
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That would be really stupid because your Relativistic Resistance fantasy is nothing to do with GR. This is easy for anyone to see - no gravitational constant = nothing to do with gravity :jaw-dropp !

Another reason that that it is easy to prove that RR is not real as you have done several times:

Why RR is a fantasy and Bjarne debunks RR again and again!

P.S. 913 days and the answer to Does Bjarne know basic physics (unit-less quantities cannot be arbitrarily assigned units) is still no :jaw-dropp!
 
Bjarne said:
The distance would be the same, to the north and South Pole (if the earth was not tilting 23 degree).
So the distance to A and B is the same.
That would be confirmed objective if you did have a long enough tape measure.
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No, the didstance is not the same for A and B because you claim that their tape measures are not the same. Bjarne, try to get your story to hang together, will you?

A and B observe a different rate of time.

Either A and B are in the 'same' postion (with respect to the sun) and they observe a different speed of the Earth around the sun.

Or their observation of speed is compensated by their observation of distance so they observe the same speed, but then they observe a different distance.

No matter what you do, you cannot get around the fact that time dilation is observable.

If you work hard and long (and provided you have the intellectual capacity, which I frankly doubt), you will be able to get all this to fit together logically and objectively, and you will find that you have discovered .... the theory of general relativity.

Hans
 
MRC[QUOTE said:
No, the didstance is not the same for A and B because you claim that their tape measures are not the same. Bjarne, try to get your story to hang together, will you?
I claim.
  • Lets’ say the Earth was not tilting 23 degree.
  • Now the distance from the Sun to the North pole (A) and South pole (B) is exact the.
  • A tape measure from the Sun and to A and another (or the same) from the Sun to B, will prove the distance is the same.
  • Both A and B will agree, simply because the both can observe this is a fact.

Either A and B are in the 'same' postion (with respect to the sun) and they observe a different speed of the Earth around the sun.
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Yes we KNOW that speed cannot be comparable the same.
But no experiment has ever been able to prove what really happens.

So – IF – ONLY – speed (and time) is variables, and at the same time comparable the same units, - my friend then MUST the earth moves with 2 different speed at the same time.
This is a fact according to the scientific methods, - since we are now dealing with objective observation.

But logical the Earth cannot moves with 2 speeds at the same time. So “something” must have been misunderstood, - or something is incomplete.

Or their observation of speed is compensated by their observation of distance so they observe the same speed, but then they observe a different distance.
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Something “like that” yes, - and this is also the solution I have come to.
EVERYTHING is changing proportional the same.
BOTH time AND distance, and therefore as a consequence A and B, observes 2 “different Universes” – where BOTH time and distances NOT is comparable the same factors, - and therefore speed is also not.
  • Gravity is stretching time.
  • Gravity is stretching distances
  • Gravity is stretching speed.

A and B - do not see the "same" Universe.
A objective transformation takes place.

BUT Locally A and B will not see any differences; everything always looks the same relative to everything else. – But comparable to each others reality A and B lives in 2 completely different realities.

No matter what you do, you cannot get around the fact that time dilation is observable.
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I never even tried to.

If you work hard and long (and provided you have the intellectual capacity, which I frankly doubt), you will be able to get all this to fit together logically and objectively, and you will find that you have discovered .... the theory of general relativity.
Hans
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My friend, try to FACE the fact. that the theory, - Generel relativity s INCOMPLETE, so long we don’t know what happens to distances.
You KNOW that gravity is changing time.
Hence you also KNOW that deformed space is changing time.
But YOU DON’T KNOW what “deformed space” really is, and therefore you and “we” failed fully to understand General Relativity in the first place.
So simple is that….

If you don't agree, TRY HARD to describe so good you can HOW does "the curvature of space" change TIME
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Bjarne said:
A tape measure from the Sun and to A and another (or the same) from the Sun to B, will prove the distance is the same.
Both A and B will agree, simply because the both can observe this is a fact.
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How do they know that gravity is not stretching the tape and one of them is at a different distance?


This is a fact according to the scientific methods, - since we are now dealing with objective observation.
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remind us again, what is being observed and how do the observers frames of reference differ?


BUT Locally A and B will not see any differences; everything always looks the same relative to everything else. – But comparable to each others reality A and B lives in 2 completely different realities.
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So their observations are the same but everything is different.


If you don't agree, TRY HARD to describe so good you can HOW does "the curvature of space" change TIME
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I believe it's been mentioned before, but it's not space, it's

space-time​
 
Bjarne: What are the radial velocities that your theory predicts

Bjarne said:
Try to Google Translate this

http://videnskab.dk/miljo-naturvidenskab/hardt-slag-mod-teorier-om-morkt-stof

The end of the Dark Matter religion is near.
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Try to undersatdn what the Gaia mission is
To create the largest and most precise three dimensional chart of our Galaxy by providing unprecedented positional and radial velocity measurements for about one billion stars in our Galaxy and throughout the Local Group.
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That dark matter exists does not depend on this mission. The requirement for dark matter in galaxies has been measured for hundreds of other galaxies.

The Gaia mission will provide a more detailed decription of the Milky Way which should give better information about what dark matter is.

But here is an idea, Bjarne: What does your theory predict about the radial velocities that Gaia will measure?

My expectation: Either gibberish with no actual prediction or total silence once again confirming the uselessness of your theory.
Maybe you can surprise me though :eye-poppi!
 
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