ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th November 2012, 06:21 AM   #1
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,028
Columbine, Virginia Tech, Tucson and Aurora … yet nothing on gun control

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ent-mark-kelly

Columbine, Virginia Tech, Tucson and Aurora … yet nothing on gun control

We have a political class afraid of a meaningful debate about our gun laws. We need leaders like Gabby to address the issue

Mark Kelly

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/mark-kelly

Mr Loughner, for the first and last time, you are going to hear directly from Gabby and me about what you took away on 8 January 2011 and, just as important, what you did not. So pay attention.

That bright and chilly Saturday morning, you killed six innocent people. Daughters and sons. Mothers and fathers. Grandparents and friends. They were devoted to their families, their communities, their places of worship.

Gabby would trade her own life to bring back any one of those you savagely murdered on that day. Especially young Christina-Taylor Green, whose high-minded ideas about service and democracy deserved a full life committed to advancing them. Especially 30-year old Gabe Zimmerman, whom Gabby knew well and cherished, and whose love for his family and his fiancee and service to his country were as deep as his loss is tragic. Especially Judge John Roll whom Gabby was honored to call a colleague and friend and from whose interminable dedication to our community and country she gained enormous inspiration. Gabby would give anything to take away the grief you visited upon the Morrises, the Schnecks, and the Stoddards – anything to heal the bodies and psyches of your other victims.
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 06:54 AM   #2
casebro
Philosopher
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,445
Mr Drac, the voters of the U.S. WANT us to have guns.

IIRC, the Kerry loss was due to his anti-gun stance which lost him a couple key states. Since then even the Dems feel anti-gun is not a good plank to have in their platforms.

Subjectively, you can prove me wrong by listing the voter direct proposition from all over the country, and see the rate of how many times 'we the people' actually voted anti-gun.

Besides, last FBI study I heard shows those mass murders by gun, like you listed, are way down over the last decode or two.
__________________
Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts.

Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them.

It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 07:07 AM   #3
Magyar
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,868
When it comes to guns, the woo and outright lunacy of the us crosses all party, color and socioeconomic lines. I don't even have an overall problem with that, but just like with taxes and health care we have to come back to at least the neighborhood of reality.
__________________
"There is no heresy or no philosophy which is so abhorrent to the church as a human being." James Joyce

We’re not going to be disrespected,” Marlin Stutzman (R-IN) told Drucker Tuesday night. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”
GOP at it's best.
Magyar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 07:12 AM   #4
casebro
Philosopher
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,445
And the reality is that the people want us armed.

That reality is reflected in the dearth of new gun control laws.
__________________
Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts.

Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them.

It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 07:15 AM   #5
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 5,746
One thing you need to know is that many gun control laws have little to do with reducing crime, especially those passed at the state or county/city level. Instead they are passed to placate those who don't like gun owners.

Mark Kelly described Brewer's remarks as feckless, but they were merely true. Some of the most important traits a politician can possess are honesty and candor.

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 07:45 AM   #6
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 10,577
These threads tend to go on and on, and we've had several in recent memory. When these tragedies occur, there is always talk of more "gun control", but actually coming up with meaningful legislation that would have some sort of effect is vastly difficult.

Consider that in one of these cases, the individual apparently purchased a firearm in an entirely legal manner. He may have been having homicidal ideation at the time... He may have been actively insane. But no one knew it or could know it. He was not raving or delusional or hallucinating... He had not been under the care of a doctor or psychiatrist.
He purchased a perfectly ordinary handgun.

In another, the lad was definitely showing signs of homicidal ideation and was seeing a mental-health professional who was alarmed at his thoughts and behaviors. Yet none of this was brought to the attention of the authorities and under patient confidentiality laws it's doubtful that it could have.
By the letter of the law, this individual also purchased his weapons legally.

We can go back to the earliest of these "rage killing" cases... Charles Whitman was to all appearances a fine fellow... Eagle Scout and all, who had an extensive collection of quite legal firearms. Then he went mad.
How would you take legal steps to stop such things?

I note that on my various gun-related forums there is already another spate of "panic buying" and the local news reported that local gun shops are doing very well, thanks after Obama's re-election.
Yet as we note there is no legislative hue and cry. Political pundits say "gun control is a dead issue".
We accept 40,000 dead each year as a result of motor-vehicle accidents. We accept a vastly-larger number due to cigarette smoking. And apparently, we accept the current numbers of homicides and suicides by firearm as well.
Price of doing business.
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 08:10 AM   #7
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,286
1)Taking away people's toys is always policaly dicey

2)There are significant groups in the US who need people to be worried about the goverment taking their guns or order to continue to exist at their current size.

Result no one is going to try pushing gun control at the moment.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 08:42 AM   #8
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,420
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And the reality is that the people want us armed.

That reality is reflected in the dearth of new gun control laws.
People also film themselves shocking their testicles. People are stupid.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 09:30 AM   #9
Giz
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,790
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
When these tragedies occur, there is always talk of more "gun control", but actually coming up with meaningful legislation that would have some sort of effect is vastly difficult.
My understanding is that the vast majority of firearm homicides are either:

"illegal" guns (either because posessed by felons, stolen, etc - apparently the amount of these guns is c. 100 million)
Or
Suicides

(Spree killers being - statistically speaking - insignificant)

If we are concentrating on people using guns to kill others (which I assume that we are) then the issue is rarely people who have legally purchased/own guns… it's gang members/felons. Unfortunately, most of the commonly proposed gun control legislation seems to target law abiding citizens and not really add anything to the mix regarding criminals/gangs who have guns (probably because that's already illegal).

It would probably be quite effective at pandering to anti-gun voters… it would probably have negligible impact on gun violence.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 10:14 AM   #10
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 5,746
Keep in mind that some of these people are shot by the police but there are no calls to disarm them as far as I know.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1615397/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00463-0112.pdf

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 10:20 AM   #11
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,028
Instead of making guns illegal, what they ought to do is make shooting people with guns illegal. That's the problem you want to solve.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 11:16 AM   #12
foxholeatheist
Graduate Poster
 
foxholeatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,159
So... if there were no guns would there then be no spree murders?

By what means does anyone propose rounding them all up?
__________________
You start wearing the blue and brown and
You're working for the clampdown
-The Clash

My Band!
The Heimlich County Gun Club
foxholeatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 01:39 PM   #13
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 33,246
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
People also film themselves shocking their testicles. People are stupid.
Don't knock it til you've tried it.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 02:38 PM   #14
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 5,389
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And the reality is that the people want us armed.

That reality is reflected in the dearth of new gun control laws.
Another reality is that illegal is not the same as non-existent. Passing laws against guns does not magically make them all disappear, not matter how hard you may wish it did.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 04:18 PM   #15
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,420
Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
So... if there were no guns would there then be no spree murders?

By what means does anyone propose rounding them all up?
Ah, that's the rub. Those of us that like the idea of gun control have no real good answers on how to enforce it. For that reason I would rather we hold back until someone actually has a reasonable solution rather than rushing headlong into a total quagmire.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 04:23 PM   #16
Normal Dude
Space Shuttle Door Gunner
 
Normal Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,979
I know what we could do! We could instead address the root issues that are the cause of most violent gun crimes, like, say, gangs.

....

.... NAAHH, that's too hard, let's just pass some more laws that makes us look like we care and are doing "something".
__________________
"At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity

And I dont care if your name is Norm or Jack, Or Dick. I dont see why you have to post your name everytime you make a comment./ its IRRELIVANT -Rwalsh
Normal Dude is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 05:58 PM   #17
Ferguson
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 897
The problem with making judgments based on sprees, is that sprees that run amok are reported, but when a gunman pulls out a gun at a college campus or mall, and is immediately stopped by someone else there who happens to be armed, it doesn't become news, besides a line item in a local police blotter.

Sprees result from the unique case where one person is armed, but no one else there is, which makes schools and theaters likely locations. Would gun control increase or decrease these circumstances?
Ferguson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 06:46 PM   #18
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 6,119
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
These threads tend to go on and on, and we've had several in recent memory. When these tragedies occur, there is always talk of more "gun control", but actually coming up with meaningful legislation that would have some sort of effect is vastly difficult.

Consider that in one of these cases, the individual apparently purchased a firearm in an entirely legal manner. He may have been having homicidal ideation at the time... He may have been actively insane. But no one knew it or could know it. He was not raving or delusional or hallucinating... He had not been under the care of a doctor or psychiatrist.
He purchased a perfectly ordinary handgun.

In another, the lad was definitely showing signs of homicidal ideation and was seeing a mental-health professional who was alarmed at his thoughts and behaviors. Yet none of this was brought to the attention of the authorities and under patient confidentiality laws it's doubtful that it could have.
By the letter of the law, this individual also purchased his weapons legally.

We can go back to the earliest of these "rage killing" cases... Charles Whitman was to all appearances a fine fellow... Eagle Scout and all, who had an extensive collection of quite legal firearms. Then he went mad.
How would you take legal steps to stop such things?

I note that on my various gun-related forums there is already another spate of "panic buying" and the local news reported that local gun shops are doing very well, thanks after Obama's re-election.

Yet as we note there is no legislative hue and cry. Political pundits say "gun control is a dead issue".

We accept 40,000 dead each year as a result of motor-vehicle accidents. We accept a vastly-larger number due to cigarette smoking. And apparently, we accept the current numbers of homicides and suicides by firearm as well.
Price of doing business.
Agreed, and two individuals from different sides of the political aisle have approached me since Tuesday for advice on buying an AR type rifle.

As to the lack of new proposed gun control laws, California will see a whole slough soon, but the rest of the country is still sorting out Heller and McDonald and trying to determine what "in common use" really means - hint, read Staples v. U.S.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 08:02 PM   #19
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
The US chose to let the genie out of the bottle and I do not think anything can be done to get it back in.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 09:28 PM   #20
foxholeatheist
Graduate Poster
 
foxholeatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,159
Originally Posted by Normal Dude View Post
I know what we could do! We could instead address the root issues that are the cause of most violent gun crimes, like, say, gangs.

....

.... NAAHH, that's too hard, let's just pass some more laws that makes us look like we care and are doing "something".
But but... Guns are the only method by which spree killings are committed.
__________________
You start wearing the blue and brown and
You're working for the clampdown
-The Clash

My Band!
The Heimlich County Gun Club
foxholeatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 09:48 PM   #21
joesixpack
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,534
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Instead of making guns illegal, what they ought to do is make shooting people with guns illegal. That's the problem you want to solve.
This is what I'm thinking. The whole "shooting people with guns" thing should be made illegal, and then people will stop doing it.
__________________
Generally sober 'til noon.
joesixpack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 09:52 PM   #22
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,028
Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
This is what I'm thinking. The whole "shooting people with guns" thing should be made illegal, and then people will stop doing it.
We should also make it illegal to get shot with a gun, just to cover all the angles.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 09:58 PM   #23
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,257
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The US chose to let the genie out of the bottle and I do not think anything can be done to get it back in.
Which genie was that, and what exactly was the choice? When was it made?

ETA (and I'm throwing you a bone here): Most gun control happens at the state level. So when you talk about genies and bottles and choices, you're actually talking about 50 different genies, and 50 different bottles, and 50 different choices. That's a lot to talk about, even for an American. What do you know about it, to talk the way you do?

Last edited by theprestige; 9th November 2012 at 10:01 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 10:13 PM   #24
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,028
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which genie was that, and what exactly was the choice? When was it made?

ETA (and I'm throwing you a bone here): Most gun control happens at the state level. So when you talk about genies and bottles and choices, you're actually talking about 50 different genies, and 50 different bottles, and 50 different choices. That's a lot to talk about, even for an American. What do you know about it, to talk the way you do?
I'm kind of amazed that there are 50 different choices. Did all the states get together and just decide to be completely uncooperative and unique? I always assumed that most states do what Michigan does: copy from someone else's answer sheet.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 10:36 PM   #25
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which genie was that, and what exactly was the choice? When was it made?

ETA (and I'm throwing you a bone here): Most gun control happens at the state level. So when you talk about genies and bottles and choices, you're actually talking about 50 different genies, and 50 different bottles, and 50 different choices. That's a lot to talk about, even for an American. What do you know about it, to talk the way you do?


The Second Amendment 1791. I believe the authors are the founding fathers. The militia becoming the people and their right bear arms. The aim being the right todefend yourself. Initially targeted against the British, but also recognised as everyones right to have a gun and use it for defence.

There has been further legislation and decisions which have further clarified that there is right to bear arms and defend yourself with them.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 11:16 PM   #26
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,257
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I'm kind of amazed that there are 50 different choices. Did all the states get together and just decide to be completely uncooperative and unique? I always assumed that most states do what Michigan does: copy from someone else's answer sheet.
It's more like Christians and the Bible: each state picks and chooses which parts they believe in.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2012, 11:18 PM   #27
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,257
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Second Amendment 1791. I believe the authors are the founding fathers. The militia becoming the people and their right bear arms. The aim being the right todefend yourself. Initially targeted against the British, but also recognised as everyones right to have a gun and use it for defence.

There has been further legislation and decisions which have further clarified that there is right to bear arms and defend yourself with them.
It's obvious you've never actually compared the choices made by, say, California, with the choices made, by, say, Texas. Like I said, 50 different genies, and 50 different bottles, and you don't know about any of them.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 01:21 AM   #28
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,420
Originally Posted by Normal Dude View Post
I know what we could do! We could instead address the root issues that are the cause of most violent gun crimes, like, say, gangs.

....

.... NAAHH, that's too hard, let's just pass some more laws that makes us look like we care and are doing "something".
In reality you kind of need to do both but if you are only going to do one I would agree attacking the underlying social issues would be better.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 05:01 AM   #29
000063
Philosopher
 
000063's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,309
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's obvious you've never actually compared the choices made by, say, California, with the choices made, by, say, Texas. Like I said, 50 different genies, and 50 different bottles, and you don't know about any of them.
Co-signed.
000063 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 08:43 AM   #30
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 5,746
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Second Amendment 1791. I believe the authors are the founding fathers. The militia becoming the people and their right bear arms. The aim being the right todefend yourself. Initially targeted against the British, but also recognised as everyones right to have a gun and use it for defence.

There has been further legislation and decisions which have further clarified that there is right to bear arms and defend yourself with them.
There is something that you do not understand. Even though the 2nd amendment is part of the constitution and comes right after the people's favorite (the 1st; freedom of press and speech) it is treated like a joke. It is currently interpreted as an individual right, not as one reserved to the states or the militia, but the government has ways to infringe upon the right to own a firearm.

They define items that are obviously not guns as firearms and control them as such. They tax some of them much more than they are worth to discourage people from making or buying them and put registration requirements in place that can be impossible for individuals to meet. Some are even illegal to register since 1986. http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf Take a look at title 26 chapter 53

Simply using certain firearms in some crimes requires an enhanced sentence of 30 years to life. It ain't Singapore, but it is not necessary either.

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 08:45 AM   #31
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's obvious you've never actually compared the choices made by, say, California, with the choices made, by, say, Texas. Like I said, 50 different genies, and 50 different bottles, and you don't know about any of them.
I said the US let the genie out the bottle and have shown when and who by. That different states have different rules over guns does not mean any of them have got the genie back into the bottle whereby people rarely have guns, there are few guns about and they cannot be used in self defence except in the most extreme situations. Like in the UK.

Fact is the USA could never go to being like the rest of the Western World with tight gun control, no armed civilians walking the streets anywhere, generally fewer guns and an propensity not to shoot.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 08:53 AM   #32
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
There is something that you do not understand. Even though the 2nd amendment is part of the constitution and comes right after the people's favorite (the 1st; freedom of press and speech) it is treated like a joke. It is currently interpreted as an individual right, not as one reserved to the states or the militia, but the government has ways to infringe upon the right to own a firearm.

They define items that are obviously not guns as firearms and control them as such. They tax some of them much more than they are worth to discourage people from making or buying them and put registration requirements in place that can be impossible for individuals to meet. Some are even illegal to register since 1986. http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf Take a look at title 26 chapter 53

Simply using certain firearms in some crimes requires an enhanced sentence of 30 years to life. It ain't Singapore, but it is not necessary either.

Ranb
I never said it was a free for all with no restrictions whatsoever. I said that back at the beginning of the USA it was decided to have an armed population outwith the army. The US is not unique in that, for example Switzerland, but what has been unique in the culture that grew up around civilians having guns and using them. Hence the US has the most guns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country

and one of the highest number of deaths per head

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

compared to to most countries in the world and certainly the Western World.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 09:44 AM   #33
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 54,074
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I never said it was a free for all with no restrictions whatsoever. I said that back at the beginning of the USA it was decided to have an armed population outwith the army. The US is not unique in that, for example Switzerland, but what has been unique in the culture that grew up around civilians having guns and using them. Hence the US has the most guns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country

and one of the highest number of deaths per head

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

compared to to most countries in the world and certainly the Western World.
Does Northern Ireland have looser gun laws than the rest of the UK?

If not, maybe there's something besides gun laws that affect gun homicide rates?
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 10:28 AM   #34
stokes234
Master Poster
 
stokes234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,295
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Does Northern Ireland have looser gun laws than the rest of the UK?

If not, maybe there's something besides gun laws that affect gun homicide rates?
Of course there are other factors, nobody sensible is suggesting gun crime is perfectly and solely correlated with availability of guns. However, it could be argued that there would be less gun crime in northern ireland if they hadn't been taking advantage of the lax US gun control laws.

On a related note, there was a killing spree in Cardiff a few miles from my house recently. The guy went on a rampage with his car and injured 13 people, killing one. I dread to think what he could have done with an automatic weapon.
__________________
"I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune
stokes234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 11:11 AM   #35
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 54,074
Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
Of course there are other factors, nobody sensible is suggesting gun crime is perfectly and solely correlated with availability of guns.
How do you explain the gun death rate in NI more than 1000% higher than the rest of the UK?

Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
However, it could be argued that there would be less gun crime in northern ireland if they hadn't been taking advantage of the lax US gun control laws.
And the rest of the UK can't take similar advantage? For what reason?

Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
On a related note, there was a killing spree in Cardiff a few miles from my house recently. The guy went on a rampage with his car and injured 13 people, killing one. I dread to think what he could have done with an automatic weapon.
What US spree killings were done with automatic weapons?
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 11:22 AM   #36
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Does Northern Ireland have looser gun laws than the rest of the UK?

If not, maybe there's something besides gun laws that affect gun homicide rates?
No they are very similar.

I am sure there are loads of factors, in NI case there was The Troubles.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 11:25 AM   #37
stokes234
Master Poster
 
stokes234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,295
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
How do you explain the gun death rate in NI more than 1000% higher than the rest of the UK?
Religious conflict is much higher in northern ireland. Notice I have at no point claimed gun control to be the only factor in gun crime.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
And the rest of the UK can't take similar advantage? For what reason?
The rest of the UK potentially could have if it had the same level of religious conflict as northern ireland. The point i'm trying to make is that if the US had better gun control laws, no part of the UK could have imported guns from there.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What US spree killings were done with automatic weapons?
It was a hypothetical point, but you can replace "automatic weapon" with "handgun" or "submachine gun" and my point remains the same.
__________________
"I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune
stokes234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 11:33 AM   #38
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
How do you explain the gun death rate in NI more than 1000% higher than the rest of the UK?


......
Where did you get that statistic from?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/ja...owest-12-years

"The Home Office figures published today show that England and Wales are in the middle of the European murder league at 13.5 deaths per million population. Finland tops the table at 23.4, followed by Scotland at 21.4, and Ireland on 20 per million. Northern Ireland now has a murder rate well below Scotland at 15.2. Austria has the lowest murder rate in Europe at 6.1 per million."
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 11:37 AM   #39
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
.....


The rest of the UK potentially could have if it had the same level of religious conflict as northern ireland. The point i'm trying to make is that if the US had better gun control laws, no part of the UK could have imported guns from there.



......
US guns continue to feed the drugs war in Mexico

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....exico_2010.pdf

"Since 2006, 90% of the Mexican crime guns submitted for tracing originated from gun dealers in the United States.10"
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2012, 12:59 PM   #40
joesixpack
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,534
Originally Posted by stokes234 View Post
Religious conflict
Are you actually serious?
__________________
Generally sober 'til noon.
joesixpack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.